#2065 - David Grusch

Hey, man. Hey, good. Good. Thanks for coming here. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's a pleasure. You've been on a whirlwind sort of tour. I guess we should start from the beginning. Yeah. So first of all, lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all started for you. Yeah. Yeah. So I was a Intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve. Then I kind of had like a parallel track in the civilian intel world when I became a reservist. And ultimately I got brought back in in civil service in a government way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. A couple years ago, I'm at a senior level. So I was a major in the Air Force in a GS15 at NGA, which is like a full-bird kernel equivalent civilian employee. I'm very humbled that I was able to kind of get that kind of job. But my career mostly, I didn't even really think about this topic. UFOs were not on my radar. I wasn't really a believer. I was agnostic about it. Most of my career, I did a lot of behind-the-door special access program, technical type activities. I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber-intell expert. And like I said, this was not on my radar at all. You know, like I would joke with my buddies because I used to handle the presidential daily brief for the National Connison's office director in my military capacity as a reservist. And I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of compartmental programs. And you know, the joke was like, when are we going to get the read on for the crazy shit and that never happens and and I do remember that the day that I really Can remember that I was like huh? What's with this UFO stuff? I was a briefing a senior person [02:01] at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs. So I was at the headquarters at the agency. And after the indoctrination, I was giving to the senior person, this person who worked with Luella Zondo previously was like, yeah, Dave, have you ever heard of this guy, Luella Zondo? He's writing some UFO program at the Pentagon. We all think he's crazy. And I'm like, I don't know that this guy, Louis Luzando is, and I don't know of any kind of UFO program. So that sounds nuts to me, but low and behold, and that was like early 2017, and low and beholds in December 2017 that New York Times article came up with the name the ATIP program and the OSAP program. So Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems, Application Program, and Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program being the other acronym. And I was like, holy shit. Wait, that's that guy, Louis Luzando, that I heard about. Oh, you know what, I think I have heard of OSAP. [03:02] When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff and I was like, oh, that's stupid. Why is the DIA looking in the black holes time warps and just didn't make any sense to me back in like, 0809 when I was a lieutenant? And all of a sudden, I'm like, well, maybe there's something to this UFO thing. I'm not saying I was like a believer either way on the subject, but this was a topic of concern apparently for the Pentagon. And in 2018, I started doing kind of what I call my open source literature review. Like, let me spin myself up on this topic, watching Chris Mellon, Louis Lando, Leslie Kean, all these people talk about the subject and then just trying to understand, so what is this with UFOs? Has this been going on for a while? The answer is yes, like food fighters, sightings of weird stuff and antiquity, etc. Which we can get into later. And so early 2019 comes along and my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office and kind of my Air Force [04:06] major capacity forwarded me an email from the what became stood up in like I guess it was 2018, which was the unidentified while was Ariel, now a non-nominous philometer task force, UAP task force. So the UAP task force directors set my boss in email saying, hey, we're looking for a rep To the task force and as like any good officer. I was like well, I'll put it on my performance report Hey, I was on a task force and you know that would look good and I being well-cleared and also bachelor's degree in physics Masters in intelligence analysis. I'm like, you know what? I'll figure out what the shit is. It's either gonna be weather shit Masters and intelligence analysis. I'm like, you know what? I'll figure out what the shit is. It's either gonna be weather shit Maybe it's an adversarial program. Maybe it's like a US program people are misidentifying on rare occasions [05:02] So fuck it. I'll I'll go see where the data takes me and you know early 2019 or so I joined the UAP task force and then I Started I started interviewing pilots, flag officers, general officer, equivalent type Navy folks. And they were seeing some really crazy shits. And like a event that I talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on the Yes Theory channel. There was this one 30-year senior Navy officer that he was going to work, sober, no predisposition for fantasy, all that kind of stuff because I interviewed the individual for a couple hours and he saw this crazy triangle hover over his car going to work at a certain naval facility and it like blew his mind. He was serious. The paint on his car turned Milky White after the incident. So that's to me that sounds like ionizing radiation. So like ultraviolet. Just like how your your headlights get all foggy over time if you park your car out in the [06:02] sun. Same phenomenon just happened, you just happened within 24 hour period and I'm like, whoa, if this is true and the oral testimony and crazy radar data that I saw when I was on the task force, stuff making turns and didn't make any sense, well holy shit, what is this stuff then? This anomaly with his paint. Is this documented? Is it photographs or? Yes, I saw photographs. It was documented, yeah. And what is there a conventional explanation? I mean, based on what he described, something de-rapidly ionized his paint like that within a day, I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional aerospace technology and and this was a certain facility in the continental US, this is not overseas, so it's not like our avisaries flying some spooky thing in US airspace. So this thing hovered [07:00] over his car for how long? A couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 miles an hour so it was pacing his vehicle away from his vehicle. It's probably a couple hundred feet in altitude. It was less than a thousand feet, which is also bad because from an airspace perspective pilots would know this. Anything under a thousand feet? No. Unless you get special clearance and you only do that over controlled airspace like a military test ranges where you do people fly low and not kind of thing. So is he on what kind of a highway is he on? A conventional civilian highway. A civilian highway? Say anyone could have been on it. Yes. It just happened to be this guy. Did he have any other experiences with this thing? No, this was like a once in a lifetime thing. He kept it to himself for a couple of years, but then he, so it's asked for his name. What was his name? I don't know what he's, that individual still on that dude. It's called Bob. [08:00] Did anybody say to Pam, hey Bob, what the fuck happened to your car? You know, that's a good question. I don't remember if people asked him about his car So he's a pride in his car. So it actually was probably more upsetting to him personally. What kind of car was it? It was like a Toyota or something. Okay. Yeah. So all sudden his Toyota's fucked. Yeah, okay, and so Did he have to report this is something that He did not report it to my knowledge to anybody. It wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it happened. So are those... These kind of experiences, something that a lot of these pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have apprehension about discussing because they could be ridiculed? Yeah, a lot of people that are in flight status, they don't want to be sent to the psych, right? You know, there's a whole aerospace physiology kind of empire in the military. And if you're an operator or guy, missile keyturner, you're on what's they call a personal reliability program, if you're taking like, you know, Tylenol, you got to report it. If you have a fever, you got to report it, you're taking like, you know, Thailand all you got to report it. If you [09:05] have a fever, you got to report it because you're, you know, in control, nuclear weapons when you're on duty. So, yeah. And so this idea of being predisposed to fantasy, that's also something that they sort of talked to these people about or tried to get a gauge of, yeah, yeah, these are people that are very sober minded. I mean this individual was early in the morning go into work not under the influence of anything and That person had a similar clearance as mine no TSSC. I so you know, we've gone through yes Top secret you know sensitive department of information clearance and you know just like myself I've been through multiple polygraphs in my career, so did this individual. So, does he have any idea or any theories about why this thing was following him? No, that's what freaked him out the most because he didn't have any experience in his life like this. Like totally blew his mind when he looked out his moonroof and then looked out the side of his [10:03] totally blew his mind when he looked out his moonroof and then looked out the side of his car door and saw this 300 foot triangle. It was like pre-don sky, but it was darker than the pre-don sky and it had this like plasma edges. Like it was like purplish glowing edges in these three lights that have these omnidirectional, like almost like pull lights, you know how there's, you can't really tell where the light source is. And it was totally trippy. And that's just one example of many anecdotal, with some evidence, you know, pilot stories. And that's what made me dig deeper. And I started cultivating my network. Like, has the government studied this before? This wasn't just a sap and a tip and blue book and all this shit in the past, right? There's, this seems serious. So like certainly the government has looked at this and you know I went to search for that program and that's what I ended up whistle blowing on, right? So when you, what was, how did you initially discover [11:00] this program and like what was your first encounter with the information? A very senior individual in the Intel community came to me when I guess I was asking a lot of questions because I'm a very inquisitive guy and it was like hey I need to introduce you to somebody you know he listed that certain persons academic credentials, which were beyond reproach, you know, PhD level education clearance Resume was insane. I'm like, well, okay, sure. I'll talk to this person and and I ended up meeting that person in a you know Top secret facility and you know, he started to discussing like hey there's a program I Was on it and you, we were reverse engineering crash material that we've recovered over the decades, you know, and he's like, I'm not joking. You know, and we know what we're telling you because you have to, you guys have to report to the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress on this matter, right? And we were actively briefing like Secretary Esper, [12:07] Deputy Secretary Norquist, you know, other cabinet-level folks, right? And it's like there's an oversight issue because you're the UAP task force, you should be read into this stuff because like why spend the taxpayers, you know, dollars looking at stuff that we already have data on. Right, so that's, and that's spooked to me, and that was like fall of 2019. And you know, I don't take a guy's word for it. I'm like, you know what? Myself and my trusted colleagues, it had a lot, a lot of special accesses like me. You know, we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed about 40 people or so all the way up to multi-star generals, directors of agencies, mid-level guys that literally touched it, worked inside of it, all the stuff they brought, [13:01] Intel reports for me to look at, you know, documents, and a lot of that I could cross-verify with other oral sources that my high-level colleagues are I talked to, and it checked out. Especially when I had enough information on, and I know who specifically to ask like, hey, well, I want red into this. Like, I'm on the UAP task force and we went to those, I'll call them gatekeepers for the lack of a better term. And they basically said, fuck you to me and my colleagues. Hmm. So why would these other people willing to discuss this with you? Well, they determined I didn't need to know. I was already cleared at such a high level, handling presidential material and everything. It's like Dave needs to know. And they felt that coming to us, it was a form of a protected disclosure. They felt that they weren't really violating anything [14:01] because we were the, I'll call it the investigatory body for the Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community and Congress at the time. You are allowed to disclose to a government official in an official capacity and I did that. Of course, I protected those people. Do you know I took those people, a lot of them and they brought them to the intelligence community inspector general when I found my complaint because I don't want people to hear it from a second hand source. People call it hearsay whatever. They'll have some first-hand knowledge. I eventually talk about some day I'm trying to get it cleared but through security processes. So they could hear it and hear the details, like, who, what, when, where, why, where the shit is, who's in control of it, what are the cover programs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, and that's what deemed my complaint credible and urgent in July 2022, which is a, [15:03] so that my complaint, yes, was about reprisal to, I filed that separately eventually to the Department of Defense Inspector General and that's an ongoing investigation, but it was my congressional oversight, UAP crash retrieval allegations that was deemed credible and urgent. It was sent to the Director of National Intelligence and then it was sent to the congressional intelligence committees around that time, July of 2022. It was sent to the director national intelligence and then it was sent to the congressional intelligence committees Around that time July of 2022 and I eventually Went to Congress in December of 2022 and it's a crazy story why I took so long. It's fucking nuts But I provided total about 11 and a half to 12 hours of You know classified testimony to the congressional staffers and their lawyers for both the house and the Senate. And I went full open kimono. I told them as much as I could within my time slot if you will. So this is obviously very compartmentalized where there's only a few people that know [16:03] about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people. When did this all start? I mean is this out of Roswell? Is it predate that? Like when when did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means? Yeah I mean the the program goes back away the precise beginning of it. I can't talk about, but I did, because of security stuff, but I did talk about publicly in 1933 retrieval. And I did that tactically, and I ran that through the security approval office because I wanted to show that this is much older and it's international. It's not like a US thing. I mean, this stuff is landing or crashing around the world and unexpected countries have had this happen. And that's why I picked that because I thought that was an interesting case. And then of course, the Popeye's the 12th and the Vatican were involved back-channeling [17:04] it through the OSS, which became the CIA later, to FDR, and that's how the US knew something weird happened in Italy during, right before World War II, but this was 33, was the first like documented? That is the earliest one I can talk about, yeah. Something that predates that? You could infer that. You could infer that. You could infer that. So this 331 you said was in Italy. Yeah, magenta. So it's a bad at geography. I think that's like a Lamberti region. It's like Northern Northwest Italy. And what's the story behind it? So basically it looked like it crashed, right? The original shape most likely was like a lenticular disc like craft with like two dinner plates. What is lenticular? So like two dinner plates, you know, smushed together, right? And there's like a, you know, like a bubble on top of the classic. [18:00] Classic, like that. Like that, okay. But it looks like when it hits the edges broke off So it became this like bell or acorn shaped thing And there was nothing in it. It was like just an artifact. You know, there was no biological remnants if you will So it's so funny because the Italians were so confused They actually called up the Germans and they were like is this one of you of undevafe? So it's so funny because the Italians were so confused. They actually called up the Germans and they were like, is this one of you, Vundevafe? Like what the hell just crashed in Northern Italy? Mussolini. And this is all publicly available information because some Italian researchers found all these original documents that some people were sitting on for years in Italy. You know, put a gag order on the press, et cetera. And yeah, Mussolini asked the Germans to come down. Of course, the Germans came down and they were like, that is not ours, but let's look at it together. So that's kind of, perhaps a tertiary reason [19:02] the kind of access powers got together. I'm not saying that's like the reason, but I think the Italians and the Germans were so intrigued what they found from like an artifact perspective. There was at least some scientific and military collaboration during the war. The details of which I'm not I'm not sure of, but I know people that know that specific event that are currently still intel officers within this program in detail. But so was there witnesses to the crash or some sort of an understanding that something had crash landed and then they discovered it? Yeah, I forget the precise discovery. I don't know if it was like a local police officers or local farmers found in the field, something like that. I don't want to mispeak. I assume some of the Italian researchers might have some fact witnesses that can orally say, oh yeah, my great grandfather found that or something like that, but I don't remember of it. What was the scale of this vehicle? It was probably like 20 feet by 10 feet, something like that. [20:02] Not super huge, but kind of big. Do they think that this was a drone? Do they think that this was occupied? There was nothing in it. So if it was piloted, if you will, by some sentience, some in your guesses as good as mine. So what happened to that vehicle? So we knew where it was being stored at a particular location after the crash, and then the military came in, and we grabbed it towards the end of the war, in 1944, 1945, because, like I said, Pope Pius the twelfth already kinda let's FDR know. What had the Pope get involved? Because it's literally? Well, interestingly enough, there's like a whole history of human intelligence, Let's FDR know I had the Pope get involved because well well Interestingly enough there's like a whole history of human intelligence Prider World War II and old money the Vatican the Italian mob [21:01] Kind of the old country boys did a lot of informal intelligence collection For the US and and there's probably some books you can read on it, but it's really interesting. Human intelligence collection wasn't really formalized until the Office of Strategic Services, though SS, which became the CIA in 1947. Paul Mellon and all these other affluent guys of these old money families that basically created the CIA. So that's probably the reason why. So this thing that was recovered, this was the first documented one that the United States had access to. I can't get into, if it was the first or not, but it was an early one very early. Yeah. So it's almost a hundred years ago. And so they take this thing and then they bring it where? Yeah, I can't get into that. Okay, so they bring it somewhere in the United States and was the attempt to try to back engineer this thing was the attempt to try to understand what it was? [22:03] Yeah, I mean first of it obviously it's understanding the situation, right? What do we have our hands on? And like I've said in some other videos and stuff, you know, we took them and had project secrecy and overlaided on this issue because that secrecy worked well for atomic bomb, developments and what nots. And certainly this whole program in a nutshell, if I were to like summarize the 90 plus years of history, it is a reverse engineering program to garner some kind of insight. And of course, not a lot of the things that we've learned from it are like directly, ripped off the technology we found, but it has inspired other innovations that made its way into other US classified programs over the year for national defense reasons. It's a myriad of different things. The UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics were discovered first. Yeah, I'm not going to break the seal on anything we've discovered or anything like that. And yeah, it's how limited are you and what you can discuss and what you can't discuss [23:10] and why. Yeah. Why do they let you discuss any of this? Yeah. So anything sensitive that I want to say as it relates to like US government activity, whether it be intelligence stuff, military stuff, etc. I have to submit it through what they call dops or DOD Office of Pre-Publication and Security Review. That is something anybody who's been an Intel Officer, anybody with like a clearance has to submit that kind of stuff. Now, obviously if you're writing a book about gardening, you don't have to, but if you're going to talk about anything military and intelligence related, you have to submit. So it's kind of a catch 22 for this office, right? They're only looking at it from a security perspective. They're not vouching for it or anything like that. And that's like any author, right? They could write a book about Navy Seals. And they're not vouching for the story. They're vouching that you didn't say any nasty code words. You didn't burn a specific ongoing classified program. [24:05] And for them, I mean, I'm not in their utiloup, but certainly it's a catch 22 for them where if they want to redact and they propose a redaction, they're like, hey Dave, you can't say these sentences, you can rewrite it and resummit. You know, we can't necessarily tell you what agency said to redact it, but you're not allowed to say this. They would be basically self-certifying. There's a there there. So, in my opinion, probably the policy is like, if it has to deal with the subject, we're not saying anything. We're not proposing any redactions. As long as he's not burning a conventional program, we kind of have to allow him to exercise his first amendment rights. So I think it's like a catch 22 for that office is kind of the long or the short of the long answer. So this is essentially one of the very early ones, 1933. How many crash retrieval incidents have there been? [25:04] It is double digit This specific numbers. I do know however I can't discuss that. I know it sounds like oh I'm Being coy or whatever, but you know this show any other interviews I do right you know forward intelligence services are watching and it's like I'm not here to help Russia and China Calibrate their intelligence collection like oh Dave said it's this, I'm not here to help Russia and China calibrate their intelligence collection. Like, oh, Dave said it's this number. We missed a couple. Shit. Let's put it out for the KGB, SVR, and GRU are now going to hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they miss. So I'm here to protect national security. And I'm just trying to put all the general topics out there for public conversation to hold our government accountable, really. So, because I'm here as a fact witness, because we have a, you know, a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been, you know, reported to Congress in the appropriate [26:03] way, you know. reported to Congress in the appropriate way. I can get into a senator I talked to that has died recently. I can explain to you why I'm so sure, besides what I read, which we can get into what Intel reports I read, I did get some stuff cleared. So during my investigation, I'm like, I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels, right? So, and this will give you an idea of the kind of people we talk to, and this is the only one I'm going to talk about using their name because they died two years ago. So, in spring 2021, I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas, and I met with Senator harry reed about nine months before he died and of course he's a private citizen now and i wanted to brief them on the topic and i wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it because you know he was a gang of eight member right you know which is the top most cleared [27:00] senators in congressman he was the majority leader for god's sake so the senate and i knew you know he helps sponsor the osap program that i mentioned and you know where they looked at skinwalker ranch and some other things and i wanted to understand like what is harry reed actually no like why did he you know give twenty one million dollars to d i a in big low air a space for this so i'm sitting there in harry reeds living room $11 million to DIA in Bigelow Aerospace for this. So I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's living room, right next to him with some other witnesses that were there with me, and he straight up says, he's like, yeah, I knew we had UFO material. I was denied access for decades. I tried to get access, and then he explained some of his efforts during OSAP and I was like, holy shit, did the former majority leader just say that he just confirmed this to me as well? You know, I was already talking to these amazing high-level people, but I have Harry Reid literally saying, yes, we have material and you know, he knew it was non-human. [28:04] Did Harry Reid have personal experience with this? I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life. I mean, did he see it? Did he see the witness? He said in terms of seeing the material himself, he said he was denied access for years, decades was his term and he actually told me me on behalf of me, he was going, so he had like a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time. And he straight up said to me, he was going to talk to President Biden about this issue literally. And then what he was telling me about OSAP, I was like holy shit. I have like 20 other people that told me this dude. So the real history, what fucking OSAP was, because I think there's a lot of people out there that think they were looking at ghosts, skin walk or ranch, yes. They went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective, [29:03] but the real reason. So like there's a document that came out a couple years ago through FOIA from the Defense Intelligence Agency. There was this special access program request that Harry Reid, you might have seen this, I think like George and App and company have reported on this. That he sent to the Deputy Secretary of Defense William Lynn and it was asking for one of the most serious saps you can ask for what they call a bigoted waived special access program. So waived means it's limited congressional reporting that is a class of special access programs and bigoted means it's like by name and it's like it was was like, you could read the FOIA document. It was like, you know, Harry Reid, James Inhoff, Lou El Azondo, etc. And I'm like, why are you asking for the most serious sap to be created for a program that ostensibly is looking at skin walk or ranch and stuff and doesn't make any sense? [30:01] So what really happened there and, you know, Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure a couple of weeks after we met in the New Yorker, and you can look this up. I think it was like a May 2021 New Yorker story where he says, I knew for decades and he made this disclosure not me. So I'm going to say the name of the contractor. Harry Reid said this. We knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades. I tried to get access and I was denied. Specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking about during the OSAP program. For the people who are on this program, I submitted this shit to the officer. Got this cleared, so don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here. So Locky Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me that I provided to the inspector general, like street address, all that shit, right? And the idea was if they made a catchersmit, [31:00] a security catchersmit for this shit, most serious sat that possible, the contractor and the other government customer, which was the Central Intelligence Agency, for that specific, Lockheed material, and it was shit that they recovered from like the 50s and stuff, and it was like bits and pieces of, of like, hall structure, shit like that. And, so they were gonna tech transfer it and the 21 or 22 million dollars was actually for big low aerospace to build out facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment. And I've seen, I saw the staff meeting slides, I saw the paperwork, like there's a paperwork trail I've seen on this shit. And I talked to the people involved in this program and even Jim Lakatsky who ran the program, a retired DA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure in his book, Skin Walkers at the Pentagon, page 152 to 153, and he also made a disclosure a couple weeks ago i think it was [32:07] on weaponized podcast with Jeremy corbelle and george nap where he's like yeah we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access and he ran that through the same you know security processes i did and so jimla katzky who ran this program is also going on the record that he is aware uh... personally aware of intact vehicles and everything but uh... so they gain access what does that mean and by what method again access the way he wrote it in his book i can only infer its sounded for some forcible so through some kind of you know means i don't know if it's like c o two laser or something i don't actually know how they gained access but forcible. So through some kind of means, I don't know if it was like CO2 laser or something, I don't actually know how they gained access, but imagine it was not permissive access. They like broke into the damn thing. So this thing is essentially sealed. And it's some sort of, what was the shape of this thing? [33:03] The Katsuki didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle. As far as I, what about the dimensions? I don't believe he did in his book, but I think it's like chapter 11 in his new book or something like Lance that. But he did make that disclosure on video as well, and I do encourage both the Arrow Office, which is the DOD's UAP Task Force successor, and Congress to ask Dr. James Lackatsky to come in for classified testimony because the disclosure in his one book that he wrote with Colin Kelley her George nap and then the second book. Well, the guy saying he has close personal knowledge, he needs to go to Congress. So I, you know, I don't know James Lackatsky, but I do encourage him to be a fact witness. But going back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story short, it can't get in all the nuanced details. But basically, the CIA said fuck you to DIA and Lockheed and it was totally killed. So Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to the OSAP program was totally [34:08] killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff. So they used that money and then they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents. The DIRDs is a lot of people who's familiar with it, listening, will know about. And then they did look at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought that studying kind of the more woo-woo phenomenon aspects of this, and I've never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the ranch for myself, but obviously I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff or at least alleged that. They thought that they would be able to gain currency with the program, you know, in this case CIA to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff. Which actually I'll tell you right now it's like so weird to say that but I ran that shit through security. Yeah, to me, it's like an out-of-body experience [35:05] to talk about that kind of detailed sensitivity, stuff like that. But basically, they studied the ranch to gain favor to be like, hey, look at all this stuff we're figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch, but ultimately, they never gained favor with the government customer. And then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon. So that's kind of the long but short of it with the OSAP program that you know I wanted to make sure the public knew it's not what you think it was there was some other stuff behind the scenes that you know I wanted to speak truth to power on. So this particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s, what was the source of it? Where did they find it? Those details, I did not get cleared. So they have in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing and what do they [36:04] report once they've gained access to it? Oh, those details, I do not know. That's probably a question for Dr. Lacatsky. I presume he knows those details. I don't know. So this thing is housed somewhere. It is, yes. Currently. It may still be in the same location that I know about. Yes. And how many people have access to this and how did they prevent this information from being released? I mean, it goes back to the compartmentation and the ecosystem of secrecy in this community right. Only a limited amount of people, at least at you know, on Lockheed Martin's side. And Lockheed Martin was complaining basically like, look, like the secrecy's ridiculous. We can't even bring the right engineers. Like, imagine you're like a hot engineer. Oh, hot engineer. Hot shot engineer. It might be hot too. [37:01] I don't know. But that, you know, your first shot of grad school. Maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer. You wanna do cool shit, you wanna publish an eye triple E. You wanna like, you know, climb the ladder corporately, you know, and that kind of thing. A lucky Martin executive comes to you. Yeah, dude. You're gonna, I can reach into something really crazy, but you're never gonna publish papers on it. You're never gonna be able to tell people what you worked on, and it's probably not the most career enhancing, but if you wanna work on something cool, but I can't tell you, because it's un-enknowledge, until you sign this piece of paper, non-disclosure agreement. You know, sorry, but here's the raw deal. And you know, a lot of people are like, fuck you. No. And it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities like come work for us. Right. You'll work on crazy shits. And but that is very akin to a lot of other black programs in the government [38:03] that are outing knowledge and nature. You don't know what you're signing and for until you get bred in. And I've, you know, I've been briefed to a lot of that kind of conventional stuff in my career. So that's one of the problems that Bob Lizar and I'd love to get your take on Bob Lizar. One of the things that he talked about was that science can't really operate in a vacuum. When you separate the metallurgists from the propulsion's experts, from the biological experts, and they're not allowed to communicate with each other, and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different... Well, that was the frustration that I had some friends that I've known my entire career, like almost 14 years, right? I literally know them personally. I had a relationship with them, but they ended up, you know, spilling the beans where, you know, look, we're on the program. I'm an engineer for X, Y, and Z. We can't even cross talk across like the cubicles for God's sakes. Like, I can't, I'm looking at material X doing some X-ray diffraction testing on it, [39:04] which is like shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how it bends and looking at the atomic arrangements. I can't even like cross-talk that with another aspect of the program. This is like ridiculous. And that's kind of their frustration. Yeah, I knew you were probably gonna ask me Bob Bulbasaur, I figured as much. Why did they do that though? If everybody was already sworn to secrecy, everybody already has NDAs. It seems the most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured. Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right? People working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon. And so, and I've seen this kind of compartmentation is up to secrecy in other programs and it is debilitating for progress. And honestly, as a former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus operendus to do it that way. And very few people kind of had that top down, could look across the silos and see what [40:04] was going on. It just became very dysfunctional and they were afraid of people being too cross-breed into the different silos for counter espionage, counterintelligence. They were going to remember a bulk of this program is done during the Cold War and we were afraid of Russian spy, Soviet moles and so so we made it ultra-locked down, but to the detriment of national security. And that was one of the crazy things that got me that I wanted to whistle blow on, because I'm like, this is so stupid. We should be making more progress on this. Were there any breaches that you're aware of? Were foreign agents, were able to gain access to materials or understanding of what we know? So I'll tell you about some Intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question. So there were a sense of human drive for an intelligence that I read. So I had access to kind of the A-tip OSAP classified archives and I was like [41:03] thumbing through everything and there's some other people who are bringing me documents to evaluate. And I'll never forget I had, I want to say stolen by the US, a intelligence assessment from a certain foreign adversary, discussing the US reverse engineering program. And I was like, and that was actually another like, what the fuck? And so I had an adversary also confirmed this program literally because of X-well-traded intelligence. And so they certainly had a limited knowledge, at least fact of that the US had a program like this, a particular adversary. And actually, I was like, why want more? Like I know who wrote this, literally, or who got it, right? On behalf of the United States government. So I went to that certain agency through the approved and official way. And this is kind of part of the merious reprisals against me. [42:02] The agency was like, oh yes, we have what you're looking for Dave. You're going to need to sign a one time read-in to something, you know, come visit us to go to the vault and read it, right? You know, hard copy. But yes, we have what you're looking for. And ultimately, from what I was told by friends in higher places, my request kind of went up the flagpole of that agency. And all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss and I for like two months. And then when I really pressed them hard to gain access, because I'm like, I have a need to know. I need to evaluate this intelligence for fucking Congress. And they debriefed me from all my accesses over in that other sister agency and made up some bogus excuse like I shouldn't have been briefed anything in the first place literally. And basically gave me administrative middle finger like persona non grata. Don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again. And I'm sure the person who made the oops that told me they had what I was looking for [43:10] probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist because I never heard from that person again even though it was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with. So that was also another way I knew I was, there was a lot of smoke and fire because I, you know, had stuff like that happen to me. So this, but knowing that our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering program, are we aware of their reverse engineering programs? Yeah. Which countries are the most popular? You could probably guess. And it wouldn't be too shocking. But I won't acknowledge what the US may know. Right. So are we aware of numbers in terms of at least [44:00] a rough estimate of how many are available to these other? Yeah. How many? That's like, super. There available to these other. Yeah. How many? I can't, that's like soup. There's more than one. Yeah. You can read into that. You can read into that. And has anyone made any progress? Yeah, I can't get into, if we've made progress, if they've made progress, because that's like straight up some national security stuff. But like like I want the, just to be clear, I want the US populace to learn a lot of this. And this is why, you know, another reason why I went public is like, I need to call everybody out. I'm not here to inmonish the entire government mind you. But there is an element of the US government and it's clear defense contractor base that you know we have a three branch of government oversight issue like going back to Harry Reid. Harry Reid didn't even get access. I fucking talked to myself to confirm that and he said he was going to go talk to Biden because I think there needs to be a disclosure plan. This goes [45:01] back to what's currently in legislation right now. That's super fucking important. Because 90 some 90 some odd percent of this should should be open for public discovery public analysis and academia. This should be like at very least true nuclear program such as nuclear physics, you study any university. Nuclear weapons, classified, because that makes people in the pink mist. That's really sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how to do that. So I think the stuff that is like legit, weapons related stuff, that's like straight up national superiority stuff, sure. Reasonably classify that, but these programs, we need a change. And that's why you saw the Schumer Amendment, right? And I think you might have read that on air something in a previous episode, or correctly, you know, Chuck Schumer, and I knew about the amendment a couple of months [46:01] before I went public, and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, fuck, I'm went public and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, fuck, I'm like the only guy that kind of has the opportunity to do this. I know what's in the shoot so to speak that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer amendment, which is 67 pages of literal, we want to disclose. And I'm like, I have to spike the football by going public because, you know, I can read the tea leaves on the hill and I think that they were hesitant to do anything without being able to point to something publicly and I'm like, oh, be that fucking guy and just send it. And then of course, a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge and I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment too because not like Chuck Schumer is going to propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the National Security Advisor or President. Like I imagine he did so. And you know, so you have the 67-page amendments, right? [47:03] It's called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023. Known as the Schumer Amendment co-sponsors were young, Jill LeBrand, Rubio, rounds, yeah, and yeah. And you know, kudos for those senators for stepping up to the plate, because they know this is real. I know what meetings they've had with certain other individuals that are, you know, even more credible than myself. And so this, this act, which is like super important, is currently in conference. As we speak, in Capitol Hill, so the amendment is wrapped in something called the Fiscal Year 2024 National Defense Authorization Act. So that is the Act that funds the military basically every year, right? So it's an amendment within this bill. And the Act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the Act that talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine person, [48:01] and a controlled UAP disclosure plan that six years in length length conceivably from 2024 to 2030 in this panel and you can read this, this is public law, anybody can read this, they want a scientist economist, sociologist, et cetera. It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president and this whole bill was actually built off the JFK Records Act, which I know like they're like, well, they never released all the records. Well, we put some teeth in the bill, some eminent domains, some other stuff, the, you know, kind of forced the issue. Now granted, the chief executive, the president, has the final say, the panel can't compel the executive to do it. But like, I hope the president does, and I support that. But so the Senate already passed it. They're chill with this. This is like, we're good to go. And, but there's push back in the house right now that is, you know, part of my language, fucking ridiculous. [49:01] So they're saying, for one, it's duplicating the DOD arrows office activities. They're doing good things. They're looking at UAP reports, trying to figure out what's balloons in air trash and what's weird stuff. And of course, they are doing an historical review to try to understand the US's history on this too. But the problem is with that agency, it, it's within the DOD and I see not above. So you have an issue reaching into Department of Energy, other cabinet level agencies. You need a presidential level panel that can declassify stuff, reach into other agencies and tell certain secretaries, we're coming in, we want your stuff under presidential authority. So what's happening in the house, from what I'm told from people on the hill that are working the issue right now, you have the chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking us, from Ohio, [50:00] Dayton, Ohio area, right Pat, weird. And... Right Pat, meaning right Paterson, of course right Pat, weird. And right Pat, meaning right batterson, yeah. And Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised from Alabama, who's the chair of the House Armed Services Committee. So I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So Mike Turner, now remember, I went to his committee in December last year. He wasn't there, but his staff and lawyers were. And of course, he goes on Fox Business. After the hearing, doesn't use my name like this whistleblower, he has no idea what he's talking about. I'm like, really? Tell me, Mike, have you ever been an intel officer or served in the military? Oh wait, you've been the mayor of Dayton, Ohio. Oh wait, you've been the mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most corrupt person in Congress a couple years ago and pull up his pack donors who are his biggest donors, Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing. Okay. So, and first of all, if you thought you needed more information or wanted to talk to [51:00] me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee. So and furthermore, besides blocking the bill, I'm sure you're familiar with like representative Timber-Shet of Alabama. And he's been very outspoken on the issue. And we may not agree with everything Tim says about conventional stuff that's, you know, here and now there, but, you know, he's been a champion on the oversight committee and he was you know one of the members That I testified in public under oath regarding this so like And Mike Turner is looking to fund According to staffers I've talked to last two weeks and opposition candidate for Tim's reelection in 2024 So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the oversight committee? And why are you blocking a bill? And it's not going to cost much, a couple million a year max, you know, for the panel, which is like vaporware in US government speak, right? If there's nothing [52:03] to see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the house blocking this bill that is, in my opinion, the most important legislation for and transparency in American history, if there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi-star generals I talk to are crazy, the Intel docs that I read are incorrect, they're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that. Good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some concerted operation against me and my colleagues that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that because I took precautions, then why don't we just pass this and see what happens? And what do you think the answer to that is? Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube, and I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change. And I'm not here to be, psych, some total adversary. [53:01] I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue. I'm not here to throw people in jail. I'm not here for big contractors involved to lose money. I think this would be a boon. And I think the leadership in these companies need to think about this, where if a former open with this, you can hire people. You can push the subject into undergraduate, graduates, and post-doctoral programs of research to study this in an unclassified, just like nuclear physics. And this answers a fundamental question for humanity. Are we alone or what happens when we die? Well, I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well, what happens when we die well? I don't know about that But are we alone while the answer is we're not alone and I know that with a hundred percent certainty which has an intel officer you never say a hundred percent but All things pointed towards Basin the people I talk to like Harry Reid and I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people [54:06] you could possibly talk to to catch my drift. So, unless all of them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point, because the phenomenon is real. It's been going on for thousands of years. People have been seeing strange things and not everybody's mass hallucinating. So, that's kind of my long-diet tribe about what's happening. What do they think these things are? The people that you talk to. Yeah. So they specifically, the people on the program, that handle the material, that we're in executive level briefings with intel community leaders and other folks over the years, last 20 years or so. They did use the term extraterrestrial, ET or whatever. Okay, that is an possible origin, but the Schumer Amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non-human intelligence, NHI, very deliberately because we want to catch everything, [55:02] because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use as an escape clause like well This stuff that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial so this doesn't apply so that's why we wanted to be as Broad as possible. I mean besides ET. I mean a lot of it would be my own personal opinion I think we have a couple conceivable buckets and I'm using the work of Jacques Valet, other people that have thought deeply on the issue and how the phenomenon has changed since antiquity. It showed itself in a different way. Like a good example is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with paralysis and medieval and enlightenment area. You know, era became this alien abduction phenomenon in the modern area, era, excuse me. And is it the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon [56:03] based on a modern interpretation, you know, inside out, or as the phenomenon, this is like Jacques Vallet's book, Passport to Magnolia, Magnolia, I can pronounce it right 1969, where he talks about the phenomenon seems to like masquerade itself is different stuff over the years. But you know, we've seen roughly the same stuff. You look at the fewoo Fighters World War II, there are declassified Air Force OSI reports from the 50s, people can Google the talk about flying butane tanks with the same measurements approximately what we saw in the 2004 TicTac incident, but they called it flying propane or butane tanks in the 50s. So, uh, from a morphology year in the Air Force Intel, we call it, Fizz Recky visual reconnaissance. Like they basically looked the same. And we can back as myth that, you know, decades, if not hundreds of years in the past, you know, wheels of execule, right? [57:03] They're seeing these like disc type objects, right? And unless Ezekiel is tripping, or this is an allegory or fable in the Bible, let's say the event happens, just like in the Vedic text, you have the battles, the blue people and the battles in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons. Like what's going on there? I mean, maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing they know more than I. So there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined but it's trippy and sometimes it presents itself in like a non-corporeal form too. You know, orbs, balls of energy. You know, it all as like some kind of bipedal hominid, like some people have expiled. So I think that might be called it interdimensional, call it shadow biome, crypto-terrestrial. I mean, there's a lot of different theories. [58:00] What are the primary theories are from another planet or from another dimension? I think those are the primary I mean there's certainly Origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and You know IQs are only so high so there might be some origins that we don't Understand in terms of of interdimensional travel. Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you talk to mainstream physicists, they say crossing dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci-fi and that's why I used an example and that if some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory. So the holographic principle, which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a distance away from the singularity of a black hole. Where if you cross it, you're fucked. Because you're going to get ripped the shreds, [59:00] or you're not coming back. And that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space. And the easiest example is like us casting a shadow on a sidewalk, right? Three-dimensional object, 2D shadow on a sidewalk. If you lived in two-dimensional space, flatland, you'd be tripped out. What the fuck am I seeing? But they just don't know that it's really just a person in higher dimensional space. So as some of the, I mean, obviously we have physical material that's in three dimensional space that we've recovered, but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but as either being projected or quasi projected into our 3D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day to day basis like casting shadows. So, and that might be some of what we're seeing too, but I mean, I presume we know more [01:00:01] that people I talked to did not expel, they had full knowledge either. Like I said, the normal colloquialism was to say, ET or extraterrestrial. Could you dumb down this concept of interdimensional? Like, yeah, what I know in physics, they have theorized that there are multiple dimensions other than those that we can currently detect. Yeah. And a lot of that is based off of like, Laura Arrige, this is my bachelor's degree talking. I know there's gonna be like some physicist who has a PhD's like, oh, Dave, you fuck that up. But basically, you know, from high energy particle collisions and based on the flexion angles and all this stuff, what happens when the particles collide, you know, confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions. And I can't speak with any real authority on precisely how that works. But a lot of whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics [01:01:00] are based off of higher spatial dimensions. And so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework. That's not like wacky or loony or anything like that. So, but that's basically a possibility. But like I said, we don't really have a good theory. If you lived in like 5D space for example. It's almost like, remember the ending of the movie interstellar, right? Where he's pushing the books. He's like in a Tessir Act, you know, which is like a 4 to 5D structure, but he's trying to interact with 3D space. And of course, he like leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the end of the movie, great movie. But so that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film. It's kind of like the ending of interstellar. Oh yeah, there you go. Yeah. Which is based on what, like what theory? [01:02:00] So the physicist Kip Thorn was the very famous guy. He was a big black hole and wormhole guy. I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California. Kip Thorn actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie. We saw the halo around the black hole uh... when they were coming in with the ship and everything that's actually based off of real physics models that uh... kept thorn did the calculations for which is pretty cool actually the Christopher Nolan took it to that level you know so this idea that these beings or whatever you want to call them exist in some other dimension. Do we have, I mean, I don't know what you can say about this, do we have an understanding? Do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this? [01:03:02] Yeah, the interaction stuff, it's a sensitive area. There were multiple very senior people that were concerned about talking about that kind of stuff with me. I mean, that is certainly, it's nuts as it sounds, that was a real subject to conversation, even it sounds like something out of like Star Trek First contact. But it doesn't if you have vehicles. Yeah, so it's like, once you realize the phenomenon's real, then you realize we've recovered artifacts and you know, biologics or you know, dead pilots, if you will, even that's kind of creepy to even think about that in your worldview. You don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes too, right? And I'll, you know, leave it at that only because that, you know, that is something, you know, the president in his cabin needed to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that amendment. You know, I'm not here to, you know, push the subject in an improper way. [01:04:04] And that sounds like, why don't you just do it Dave? Like there's a lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications so as economically, theologically, or relationship geopolitically with our allies and adversaries. This is not rip off the bandaid and it's simple. There's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen. And that's why I'm laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about during the disclosure process. But I should not be the one disclosing. And it would be highly inappropriate because I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so. So I know there's people that are like, oh, it isn't Dave say X, Y and Z. It's like, this is serious. This is not like, ha ha, let me tell you a good story. I'm a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing this. I was gonna make Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force in this winter. I was on track to be, you know, a flag officer, a equivalent civilian in my career. I spent 18 years in uniform if you count the cadet time. [01:05:10] My whole adult life was serving as an intel officer, but I wanted to see, and I'm 36, right, older millennial, I wanted to see change, so I'm throwing the flag out and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough because I don't begin to say that I know everything, all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly. I don't know all the answers to that and that's why I have to be careful because I don't even know, I'll call it collateral damage effects to use kind of a military term, what may happen of certain things in detail that are revealed, that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to. So this is like a serious, this is not like a fun situation. This is like a humanity changing, hopefully in a good way, but this is like, you know, [01:06:14] quite serious and I you know, risked my personal and professional life and I personal life because things have happened to me To be public like this and and you know, I swore an oath But you know myself and my generation, you know, want to see a change. Can you discuss the things that have happened you personally? Yeah, so a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely vague because there's an open inspector general reprise of investigation on my behalf. And I'm not here to compromise the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now. But when I really started looking into this, I mean, they came after me so hard to try to revoke my clearance, ruin my career, kicked me out of my agency, and they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with like no evidence. For example, at first they they wanted to say, oh Dave, [01:07:08] you have mental health stuff you didn't report to us. We're concerned because we think you might have an ongoing mental health issue. I'm like, what are you talking about? I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan and my military service several years ago and I saw help for that. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm high functioning autistic, and I didn't know that until my early 30s and how I processed trauma. I didn't really understand until many years later. And I sought help for that, and they were trying to say that I had some secret mental health problem that I haven't been reporting to. So I had to go through this whole process. Three agencies at the same time investigated me for that, which I don't even know if that's like legal. They tried to say that I like mishandled class. All this other stuff it was insane. [01:08:00] Apparently, I was under criminal investigation for a couple of months and I didn't even know that and nor did they interview me, but they made a finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment and my clearance, which I did for the record. I maintained my clearance. I resigned with full accesses. I'm just debrief now, but I maintained my top secret eligibility, and I left with my own accord. And so, and of course, they ruined one of my boss's careers in another agency. They walked him out of the building and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show of force after they were going after me. And I feel sorry for that certain individual. And they came after co-workers of mine. I can't get into who, what, when, where and why to protect their identities and their own process. But so that's what happened to me professionally. And then what happened to me personally was very disturbing. [01:09:07] So I have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying, is they showed my wife and I they can touch me at any time, two times. And it was very disturbing. It was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that that are, to say publicly well known. Some that aren't publicly well known. And of course, I immediately reported that to, you know, counterintelligence, federal law enforcement local to me because it, you know, wasn't criminal, but it was like a fuck you to me. Like, and this was right before I found my whistleblower complaint. Now, I don't know who did this. You know, and to see who did X, Y, and Z to my wife and I, I didn't even know, but it fucking happens. And I provided that documentation to a couple special agents. [01:10:01] And I just knew that it was getting serious and you know as first of all I'm the kind of person I'm from Pittsburgh you know like the old town I'll take shit from people and I decided fuck it I'm gonna file an Inspector General complaint to protect myself I know I'm in fear for my safety. My wife's in Air Force Veteran 2 and you know, very strong individual, but as a man, you don't want to put your family at risk. And you know, did certain other measures, which I won't talk about, to protect myself physically. And I could not believe that that was happening to me, no kidding. And I knew I needed to do something internally. And then when I saw the writing on the wall earlier this year, and of course, the new but the Schumer amendment, like I mentioned earlier, and I knew I'm like, you know, I got to do this for my own protection, because me leaving the Federal Service, [01:11:02] because I resigned my Air Force Commission, I totally threw that career way, to do what I thought was the right and patriotic thing, to whistle blow on this, and I swore my oath 18 years ago, and that sounds hokey, but I believe integrity first, service and for self, and excellence, all we do, that's the Air Force motto. And I'm like, this is not gonna help me personally like love talking to you I like Spreading this message because it's the right and ethical thing to do, but this is that nightmare for me I don't want to be public. I've served the country in clandestine and covert operations for 14 years I've done technical intelligence for some of the most high-profile takedowns in US history. I shouldn't even be here, but I am because I want to see change. I saw something unethical and unmoral. I want to make sure I hold that element of the government accountable. And it was the right fucking thing to do. And I get kind [01:12:03] of emotional about that because You know my career's been service and sacrifice and you know, I had two friends of mine die and I've talked about this publicly before and I You know, I'm segwaying a little bit, but the the suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that for their service of their country And I'm'm not talking about this subject, obviously, people don't realize the kind of trauma intel professionals go through. So first of all, I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan, his name is Captain Dave Lyon. There's a park and Peterson Space Force Base named after him. I remember Cedars Kauf and come off the plane. So, I saw him die. That fucked me up for a number of years and that's what gave me a lot of my problems that I ended up dealing with. But then I had, I remarried, and then my best man, Captain Ben Heine, [01:13:03] Air Force Intelligence Officer, Air Force Special Operations Command. I've known him for years. He's my closest friend, you know, best man at my wedding. And then 28 days later, unfortunately, he suffered from depression and it was, you know, as his best friend, he didn't even confide in me. You know, I remember chitchatting him, chitchatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after he was my best man. He didn't tell me anything was wrong with him. A few hours later he walked in his backyard and shot himself. And I gave his eulogy at his funeral. That really affected me. With what Ben experienced which I can't get into all the stuff he did obviously but imagine being the guy that decides that that person is bad, fire the heral fire. That person is now pink mist, they're dead, [01:14:00] you just played God. Let's go back to you know the wife and kids at the end of your shift and a lot of that I you know I did the same kind of thing. I did a lot of stuff overseas and involved in interrogations and You know ops that where you had to decide if a target is bad enough where you're gonna affect their life forever and their family's life forever and their life forever and their family's life forever. That's the silent suffering of intel professionals, especially during the Global War and Terror, which was 21 years or so. The trauma and the mental health problems that people get from being an intel professional and operational environment, people think like special operators, pilots, et cetera, you know, army Marines, ground pounders, and they certainly have their own trauma, but it's this weird and serious, am I in a video game? Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals? And I just wanted to highlight that during the show because that was just a near and dear to myself. So people are aware of the service of military intelligence [01:15:07] and civilian intelligence professionals, so that's have to make really tough decisions for the country that affect people's lives on the receiving end, you know. So was there a concern while you're going through all this that if you didn't come out with this, that we would be stuck in the same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff. But they would continue. Yeah. Yeah, and that you nailed it on the head is, you know, I think my generation wants to change the under 40 generation, their parents went to war, their older brothers went to war, we're fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now, which is extremely stupid. I mean, it's a better way of saying it. Be quite frank, I can give you my own assessment on that if you want. But like we're in this loop, we're not progressing in a healthy way [01:16:01] as a civilization, it's becoming more divisive whether on the left or the right. People aren't even looking up. All they care about is TikTok. We're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence. I even saw that in my government service. I think humanity's kind of stuck right now and we need to change. And this subject is like one of the only unifying, ontologically shocking, but I would think generally unifying topics where if announced by the US and other major powers that have knowledge in a controlled manner, the disk exchange humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive, and care maybe a little less about superficial things. So, that's kind of my philosophical motivation to do what I did. And you confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in human history. Yeah. Which is our real loan. And it seems like at least some people have the answer to that. [01:17:09] 100%. I mean, the people I talked to certainly did, and they had close personal knowledge in the Intel reports I read, you know, literally indicated that as well. I could talk to about earlier. And it just, so it's like this caste system. I call it dudes with SCI clearances do not have an embargo on reality. So it's a caste system of, you know, people in government and outside of government and the industrial complex that run this stuff under a little oversight. And, you know, I remember some of the people who denied us access. They were like, you know, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know? And I'm like, well, why did you have a need to know? You're just some multi-star general. Where you're a human being. You're a human being. You're not better than me. I mean, who determines the need to know on a humanistic question. [01:18:08] It's like basic fact of life. Why are we classifying fact of life at this day and age in 2023? It's insane. And the answer to that would be national security. Yeah, it's a two national security, right? So like why we classify stuff? It's called executive order 13 526, right? So like, why we classify stuff? It's called executive order 13 526, right? Section 1.4, sections E and F are why we classify science stuff, why we classify nuclear stuff. It's like a one-liner. It's very vague. And you say in this is these basic facts should be classified? Are you saying that this fits in this bill? And you notice the Schumer Amendment, if anybody reads it, awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, right? And they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off a nuclear radiation. [01:19:04] Because if you look at the ultra vague definition of special nuclear material, which is section 51 of the atomic energy act in 1954, it says anything that gives off a sizable amount of atomic energy, literally that's what it says. Well, what's sizable and what legal gymnastics are you saying this stuff, which is obviously not a, well, who knows maybe it is a nuclear weapon. And you're saying this is a US nuclear secret, you're trans classifying it into a nuclear secret, which I understand maybe at first why they did that. And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was more of an enigma and we wanted to like lock it down, figure it out and then see what we're gonna do. But there's never been a disclosure plan. I always ask that like to these super senior people I've talked to, was there a plan? [01:20:01] Any kind of plan at all? And they're like, no, never. We tried the muddy to waters back and then, you know, tried to put it out there and test the populace, but you know, there was never any coach plan. I mean, people think the government is like this fine oiled machine. They have plans for everything. Well, I guess sort of, but like, it's not. I mean, look at the war on terrorism. We left Afghanistan. No general officer, Mattis Patreus, McChrystal, I call them the failed generals. People allowed them, but really themselves in the Obama administration, Bush administration, except, you know, Trump, whatever. Nobody had a coach in plan for success. And we were fighting people who are Much less of an adversary than like our one of our peers or near peers We couldn't even win that war like what the fuck are we doing? But these protracted endless wars Let's be real. It's good for the industrial complex, right? So and I'm not like in monitoring the whole industrial complex for the record [01:21:04] You know, we need national lethality. We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world. But you've got to control, you know, some of it though. Well that's a part of the problem with people that have secrets. It's like once you have secrets and part of your identity is the holder of those secrets. Yeah. And part of the culture of these industries is that they are the ones that have the access to that. Yeah, and I saw that in conventional, really black programs, I was a part of in my career. It was almost like you got that secret society vibe where it's like if you're a career government servant, your salary is not that great, but knowledge is your currency. And what makes you special? What rice bowl do you control? And I remember getting read into some stuff that like it was like the president and very limited number of people getting read into. [01:22:01] And I was one of them because I was operating a certain thing for a certain op. And, oh, you're a poacher of the club. You know, like at least 30 people are clear and whatever. And I'm like, I don't get off on this. It's so weird, but like, these like lifers, and I hate to, you know, talk so matter of fact about it. But like, it's just, it's kind of disgusting to me because it's weird. It's like a weird, like, gnostic cultish thing. And I live that community for 14 years of my career. People really do enjoy having information other people don't have access to. I was like, I got a secret. And that's why I whistle-blood. Okay, so I know this shit's real. I know we're not alone. We have stuff. No shit. Am I gonna sit on my ass I whistle-blood. Okay, so I know this shit's real. I know we're not alone, we have stuff. No shit. Am I gonna sit on my ass for 30, 40 years? I'm an old man, I look back. I had that secret, I knew about it, but I didn't do anything. I didn't change. So I couldn't just keep that secret because I thought it was [01:23:02] just perverse and wrong that the people don't even at least get to know the basics. It's insane. So when it comes to these, I'm gonna bring it back to these actual entities. Yeah. Do we know, or do you have an understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them? Well, yeah, there is a variety and we have a certain number of different things. But the like total numbers of like what's interacting with us on earth, I mean nobody knows that. And I mean, with there's an understanding of some that they do believe are interacting with us and there's a variety in terms of there's there's variables. Yeah, I talk to people who are familiar with the biological analysis and everything. So we have some idea, not a complete picture because it's like, you know, you're looking at it's like, well, I don't even understand the physiology at all. It's like, what the heck? It's like way different, right? So we have at least the description of this physiology. [01:24:02] Yeah, no, I was in the room when, I'd be careful, I don't wanna, I was in Washington, D.C. with a very number of senior people that work for members of Congress, put it that way. When I was still in government, and I brought the people who worked on that stuff to the hill. I mean, this is why the members were so confident to put out the Schumer amendment and stuff. And I was like, please explain. And they went into all those details and stuff. And I remember, you know, some of the professional staff members were like, like they were like in G-lock, right? Because I mean, it like a total world bubble. It got burst right there for a lot of people. And so we have some idea, it's not a complete picture. I mean, it's just like, but you're not even bringing the right people, like I think about my [01:25:05] like, but you're not even bringing in the right people. I think about my friend and colleague, Dr. Gary Nolan, which I started the Soul Foundation on Profit with, I mean, he's like, no bell level biologists, virologists. He's the guy that you would want on it, but he's not on it. So I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding once again if this is more So I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding once again if this is more broadly studied in an open environment. You were the Nixon Jackie Gleason story. Vagley, I stayed away from ufology because I had these contemporary people that were inside. I could check other credentials where they worked, etc. But I'm vaguely familiar where what was it like Nixon brought Jackie Gleason to some facility and showed him some stuff or something like that? Yeah, supposedly that's the story. And it's very hard to determine the origin of the story, whether or not it's real. It came from, there's a story about [01:26:01] one article that was supposedly public. Was it Van vanity fair. So I make that, yeah. And you can't find the story. But Jackie Gleason, by all accounts, was obsessed with UFOs and even built a home in upstate New York that looked like a flying saucer. Oh, really? Yeah. That's cool. This is the house. He had this house constructed supposedly after he had this meeting with Nixon. So Nixon supposedly they were drinking Jackie Leason and Nixon are tying one on and Nixon's like, you wanna see some shit? And they fly to wherever this base is and he shows them these frozen biological entities and this retrieved vehicle. And then Jackie Gleason becomes a fanatic, obviously. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, not crazy, but that's interesting that a president would do that to like an unclear [01:27:01] celebrity friend of his. Like, oh, let me just show you the most sensitive shit our country has. Well, I don't know. It's got a crazy to be people are obsessed with celebrity. You know there's even world leaders you know kings and queens of you know there've always been obsessed with famous people and Jackie Gleason at the time was incredibly famous and also beloved right. Yeah so this is my pal and I'm drunk. Wanna see some shit? You know, I get it. I wanna hang out with Nick Sitt if that's how it was like, man. Well, I bet he was. Seven years is probably wild. I bet he was like that in a lot of ways. You know, I mean, Hunter S. Thompson famously recalled his, yeah, there's a two of them meeting together. Famous of him recalled sitting in the back seat of a limo with Nixon talking about football. And he was like, God, if I didn't think he was the piece of shit, I actually kind of like him. That's funny. Yeah. We're just talking football. Yeah. You know, look, nobody in that job, nobody as a president is going to be loved by everyone. And I'm sure Nixon has positive qualities. And, you know, if Jackie Gleason liked them, I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan. It's probably probably fun to hang out with. Yeah. And if you're drunk and, you know, you're the [01:28:10] president, and also we're talking about the 1970s, right? So this is a different world, you know, like even if you tell anybody who the fuck's going to believe you, you don't have, you can't get on TikTok. Like, what are you going to do? How are you can't get on TikTok like what are you gonna do? How are you gonna get this information out? Oh exactly, and that's kind of how you know my personal opinion You know how the program was protected right for make make it crazy, right? So if anybody leaks anything Or do you know that has an authorized disclosure? Yeah people are gonna think you're fucking nuts of course. Yeah, yeah But there are Actual reports that we have biological remains Yes, oh, yes, yes, how many? It's up there as well just like with the and they vary there's different kinds [01:29:01] Do we have an understanding? You don't have to answer where they came from? Nobody I talk to expoused any specific origin to me. We may know that, but I'm not aware of anything. So I don't know. Are there reports of some kind of interaction with these things where they're giving information or discussing the problems of humanity and possible solutions or explaining why they're here. Interactions was a sensitive subject that my interview subjects did not want to get into. I suppose that there's probably detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot of the stuff you're asking. I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of that. So, is there discussions amongst these people that there have been these sort of, there was water cooler talk with some people I talked to in the program. [01:30:02] I love water cooler. Yeah, they're like, hey, bro, guess what I overheard in some weird meeting, you know? Right. And, but that is, the problem with that is it's like secondary information. Right. And I'm so anal retinove, unless that person told me I had close, personal, I touched it, whatever. Like cool, well you're coming to the Inspector General, where I'm gonna at least give them your name, because that's what you told me, and obviously I did that. So those people who physically were there, were on the program, did the thing. I brought to the Inspector General. Are there discussions of interactions with live beings? There was some water cooler talk about that kind of thing. But you know, I don't even want to get into it because it's like, there were some details provided to me, but it's like, it's secondary, and I don't know if that's like the telephone game. And I don't know if it was hyperboleized in any way, you know, in the break room, so to speak. So I'm so anal about making sure what I say is accurate. [01:31:03] I don't know. So, do we have an understand? I mean, if there have been these discussions, do we have an understanding of when they first took place? Yeah, some specific events were mentioned to me and I provided that information in a classified setting. And how far back do they go? Pretty far back, it's pretty weird. Yeah. So, well, one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to write Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets in case one of them crashed. There has been some public testimony. So General DeBoes, there were some old timers that at least did some videos in the 90s. I'm Brigadier General Exxon. Here's what I heard, whatever. I mean, that's out there in the open source. So yeah. Yeah. And there was always a discussion of hangar [01:32:03] 18. Right. If you were to hangar 18. There's a lot of hangars, that's the wall for whatever reason. I think it was maybe a movie. Was there a movie hangar 18? Well, you know, it's funny. Speaking of senators being denied, there's a video in the late 80s of Senator Barry Goldwater of Goldwater Dickelsack famed, right? He was a two-star general in the Air Force Reserve. And like, literally, this video's like on YouTube. It's like hard to find though. But Jesse Michaels on American Alchemy put together, I think, a short video yesterday, and there's like a section in there where he actually has that Goldwater interview. But General Goldwater is like, yeah, one day, I called Curtis Lemais, who's a very famous Air Force general and was like, general, I heard that there's this room that you have UFO material and Barry Goldwater exposes in this interview like, yeah, and Lemay got matter, matter, then hell at me and told me never to fucking ask about that again. I might have added the F word in there just for fun. [01:33:04] Yeah, it's bad. It's in the military too long. My wife tells me to be careful with my language all the time around my niece and nephews. But even Barry Goldwater knew that we had UFO material. He asked General LeMay when he was in the Air Force in General May basically told him to fuck off. And that is a literal interview you can Google. So a lot of this like people disclosing fact of has really been out in the vernacular for a long time. But nobody really cared because everybody was just kind of like desensitized from the whole subject and thought it was wacky. And I'm not the first former government official to confirm that. You have gold water and all these other hairy reed who made the same disclosure to the New Yorker a month after I talked to him in person. Yeah, Melan has said stuff. Louis Luzando said, you know, he believes we have material on. [01:34:02] I think it was Tuckerlson a couple years ago um... so there's certainly been other officials now i'm just trying to spike the football take it all the way to the end zone here and and luckily we have a congress that's mostly motivated minus mic rogers and mic turner you're on you're you're getting cool in your stockings i'm gonna make sure your office gets cool and uh... Turner you're on you're you're getting cool in your stockings. I'm gonna make sure your office gets cool and You know they they want change too and they realize it's time for a change and Presumably, you know Chuck Schumer's talk to You know Jake Sullivan and president Biden and you know who's in the White House right now is John Podesta He is the green energies are or something like that in the White House, but you know John Podesta, shout out to John Podesta in the White House. He has an axed to grind on this issue too because remember he tweeted at the end of Obama's second term, you know my biggest failure was not to have Obama release the UFO file and made the same kind of statement with Clinton. [01:35:09] So certainly, if Mr. Podesta is listening in the White House, I'm here to help. I hope that you're championing this within the executive office of the president. And the other speaking of people like Goldwater who have made some weird non-sequitor kind of admissions. There's a John Stossel interview of Mike Pompeo, the former CIA director, about two years ago or so. You can find it online where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and dismisses it or something about like there's no boogie man here. But then he quickly says, oh, I've seen the UFO file too and we have bigger problems. But for at least the way it was edited, John Stostle didn't even follow up. At least the way the final cut was, I'm like, dude, if I was John Stostle, I'll be like, what do you mean, Mike Pompeo? You've seen [01:36:03] the UFO file and we have bigger problems. And UFO file, the way I interpret that is a long existing file or briefing document or something that he had access to. So I think the former CIA director, Mike Pompeo, should probably clarify what he said two years ago. If anybody interview some next ask mic that question what did he mean yeah bigger problems what we certainly a bigger problems in terms of our current existence specifically with what you were talking about the proxy wars and collapse society as we know it which is seems to be yeah i mean the i mean i feel further you Ukrainian and the Israeli people, you know, I'm not taking any particular side. But certainly, people forget USAID and these wars. What's the like most expensive thing if you've studied phases of conflict? It's the reconstruction costs after the conflict. So we in it for like triple digit billions, like the war and terror. [01:37:05] I mean, certainly the Israeli conflict is a great distraction for like triple digit billions like the war and terror. I mean, certainly the Israeli conflict is a great distraction because you know, like Russia is very tight with Iran, right? And personal opinion, you know, this is just my own personal opinion, but I'm sure they commiserated and was like, can you start a two front war because we would like to win a new crane and this will distract the US because Israel is a long time, you know, Middle East ally. So it's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's public opinion. I mean, the virtue signalers on social media have essentially completely forgotten about Ukraine. It's all about Israel and Palestine. Yeah, you don't even see it. And I understand, you know, what the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly where they're kind of like trying to drain the Russia's, you know, military capability and annexation of Ukrainian territory because they don't want Russia's sphere of influence [01:38:03] to further enter that caucus region and stuff. But yeah, it's funny. Like you said, it's like you don't want Russia's sphere of influence to further enter that caucus region and stuff. But yeah, it's funny, like you said, it's like you don't even talk about Ukraine, it's all about Israel now, which is a horrible conflict on both sides. Like it's just unfortunate. Without a doubt. Yeah. It was a very interesting statement, though, that we have bigger problems. So even if we do, this seems to be like a... This is such a human question because it's one of the biggest mysteries. Obviously, there's the Fermi paradox. Where are they? If you look out and if you look out into the cosmos, if you've ever gone to clear night and you look out and you realize those are all stars and those stars are all surrounded by planets and there's literally hundreds of billions of them in the South. The Drake equation, you can calculate what probable, sentient life. And I've been in amateur astronomers since I've been a kid and I've never, crazy enough, [01:39:01] I've never seen anything remarkable. I've seen some stuff that could have been ball lightning and some satellite passes that weren't registered online. What do you, you could actually check to see if there's gonna be like an aridium flare or something like that. Maybe that was a satellite pass, maybe not. But I've never seen in my personal life, never seen anything weird. And it's funny, you mentioned the Fermi paradox and it's like, well where are they? And okay, well, you know, if you're sentient life, you're certainly going to have sophisticated cover concealment and deception techniques that goes back to like what Jacques Valleis' work is where, you know, the phenomenon presenting itself in different ways. But also, I live in the mountains of Colorado, right? So there is a mountain line den about 10 miles from my house in Colorado, literally. You know, I am, there are lower predatory sentience, I'm higher predatory sentience, and I'm using this as a device or an analogy for NHI and us. [01:40:04] Well, on a day-to-day basis, I don't care what a mountain line is doing. I may hike in that area to explore, but day-to-day, I'm afraid of it, and I don't care, and think about what humans might be, unfortunately, to some of these higher sentience, where this monkey has a nuke. Holy shit, keep them in the cage We don't want to go anywhere near them And so people think that there would be some kind of open Contact with some higher sentience that is either visiting earth or from another Dimension or whatever the origin is But they probably don't care They're probably neutral at best and maybe actually fearful of us in some sense, or were the progeny of personal opinion, progeny of some experiments and the, it's almost like living in the matrix but it's not like an actual simulation. It's like we want the simulation to go. [01:41:02] We don't wanna intercede because we wanna see what, you know, homo sapien sapien 2.0 is going to do after the great flood or something like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the more fascinating ideas is that we're some sort of a product of genetic engineering. I honestly would not be surprised. I don't know that to be true, but we're so different than everything else is here. So different, so beyond different. I mean, there's not another primate that is even reasonably close. I mean, if there's speculation amongst primatologists and there's not even speculation, they believe that chimpanzees in particular have entered into the Stone Age. So they're at the beginning of the Stone Age. They're using tools. And obviously some learned behavior, like there's some footage of orangutans using spears to hunt fish with. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Have you ever seen that? No. It's cool, shit. There's an orangutan that's hanging on a branch over a river or a body water and stabbing [01:42:08] at fish with spear, which is incredible. I mean, they're using tools. I mean, we know they use tools to extract, you know, termites and the like. Look at that. I mean, that's crazy. How crazy is that? I mean, he's clearly hunting. I mean, he's going fishing in Borneo. I mean, that is, you know, at the very least, a distant cousin of us. Some, you know, intelligent primate that is to figure out a way to use tools. How long would it take an orangutan to become a human being? How many millions of years are we talking about? Evolution, but it seems to be that process has started. Interesting. But why are we so fucking different than ever? Yeah, like are we a product of Darwinian evolution or what is a punctuated equilibrium as obviously another theory? And I'm not a anthropologist by any means, you know, I watched some Netflix episodes, but a lot of YouTube, but yeah, we seem to be oddly advanced. [01:43:09] Advanced, and we seem to dispossess other skills. I mean, you go back to like the Stargate program, right? You know, with the declassified by Clinton and sensibly canceled, I guess, in 96. You know, where you had people trained and remote viewing and like there was feedback loops to confirm what they saw was real and either satellite imagery or human sources where they sketched out a room of where there's hostages and they got a hostage out and they're like, and this is a real story actually. And they're like, did you have a source in that room? How do you know where all the corridors were and everything? And it's like, no, actually, Pat Price, remote view dude, and he's like, what the fuck? So there's something going on there, and that's like Gary Nolan, has studied a lot of this stuff. Very famously, he's pointed out, the Codate Patanum in the brain, right? [01:44:01] So this horseshoe shaped thing in the middle of your brain, that if he's done MRIs and cascans, and I'm hoping I'm not butchering his work, Gary might, you know, slap me later, but it lights up with people who have those kind of skills. They have like an overactive, caught a patanum in the brain, and it's like, okay, well, is it a transceiver of some sort? I'm guessing that's the case. Is it an emerging property of human beings as we evolve? Exactly. We're seeing just a few human beings that have this stuff. And then if it is a transceiver, where's the information? Is it in a higher spatial dimension? Or how are they extracting? How are they able to basically be non-locality, right? They're able to like, project themselves somehow their consciousness to a, and this is a declassified example from Stargate, Russian missile base, sketched the crane and though where the silos are, what the status is. [01:45:02] satellite comes over, takes a picture, and it's exactly the way they sketched it, how did they do that? Like, it's certainly real, real because there is a feedback loop. Now, there's a lot of charlatans in the psychic space and all that, but like, at least that government program, enough talk to, you know, how put off and people who actually ran that program at SRI for the CIA, then DIA in the Army. And that seems to be in men who's staring at goats, right? The George Clooney movies, the famous movie based on the Stargate program, seems to be legit as far as we can measure from a feedback perspective. What was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program? Oh gosh, I'm not a scholar on that. That something Russell Targ or Hal Putov or one of those guys could explain if it was just like a cut up in the bureaucracy or what? I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. So the idea of that being an emergent property of human beings as we [01:46:03] evolve has always been fascinating to me because there's certainly something that goes on with human communication other than we make sounds that represent objects and physical things and that the other person interprets those sounds and understands it. There's communication between human beings that's... Oh acoustic communication, like the symbol rate, if you will, is really slow. Like if you were able to consciously communicate, you know, aka, you know, the hokey term, like telepathy, right? And it's funny because that's what a lot of people expal that have had, you know, alleged contacts, right? A lot of the people that Dr. John McAdHarvard studied over the years where they felt like they were getting hit with a QR code. It was like instant knowledge or they heard somebody speaking to them nonverbaly in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize through acoustic communication or talk, if [01:47:04] you will. And it's the same thing like book proof of heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander MD. I remember reading when I was in Afghanistan and I was like, this is like crazy experience. This medical doctor has an necrotizing fasciitis of the brain is a near death experience. And he gets this like crazy, like the feelings of love, other stuff. It's a really interesting book. It's like a scientific take on a doctor's own near death experience. But when he came back and somehow the fascinitis didn't eat away his brain and he was cognitively normal, he tried to write down what information or facts of the universe he learned during his NDE, and he couldn't even put it in English. It was like crazy. He didn't know how to translate it into our language. It was just, there was no like adjectives, if you were adverbs, et cetera, that could describe the knowledge that he knew, like natively, when he had that near death experience. [01:48:00] It's a really fascinating book. And he talks about the disease he had and his physiological condition at the time. Really interesting. What was he able to discern from that? Like what was the overall message? Yeah, it was like this, like the, you know, there's the message of love, which so, that's positive. But it was like this interconnectedness, everybody is kind of connected in a way that they don't really realize. I mean, you think about, this is really trippy. A lot of thoughts with people who are smarter than me, I like to talk to them about this kind of stuff, where if you're, say, you know, higher dimensional sentience, right, the act of creation, so act of creation for 3D beings is having a baby, right? It's producing another three-dimensional object. Well, if you're in five-dimensional space, or even as four-dimensional physical space, what if act of creation is creating other conscious realities and other universes? And the act of creation is creating the universe where you, me, Jamie, whatever, we might be connected to the same, [01:49:10] I'll call it universal consciousness or a higher dimensional sentient life force or life form. I know that sounds like really out there, but when you think about it, there's a lot of other theologies out there that basically expiles that. I have a very good friend of mine who's a PhD level kind of higher up in the Mormon church, and basically the Mormon theology is kind of like that. The Mormons say you were once with God or like God, but then you were sent down to like a lower plane of existence, and that's literally what I'm talking about right now, but just in a secular sense. So maybe you were all created beings from and this, you know, this doesn't like hurt Christian theology, whatever it's actually kind of enforcing. The fact there's a creator and we're literally created in the image of a creator literally. [01:50:02] And that's kind of what life really is. It's like, think about it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory experience for a higher dimensional sentience. You're here to experience time in this weird linear fashion, and to experience yourself divorced from yourself to gain knowledge and to report back is maybe what life is. and that's just kind of my own personal theology as a summation of just During COVID I was really bored and that's what I was looking at Well, I Extrapolate that to the creation of AI and I think if you think about human beings as something that creates things, I think ultimately we create a new life. Well, exactly what if higher sentience is creating some kind of artificial intelligence, call it like a commander data from Star Trek next gen, right? Mm-hmm. Not even really, it's made in the image of the creator in some sense, [01:51:01] but it's not even, and that's what might get sent into these like long endurance missions. And of course, you know people are like, well, why would they come here so far to crash, et cetera, or are they crashing on purpose? Do you know that for a fact, or are they crashing by accident? And what if they're like, like Von Neumann replicating probes, right? You can Google that, but, you know, what if they're just throw away, which Von Neumann probes are just like, throw away spacecraft? Like, yeah, they're just, we send it out. We don't really care what the mission success is, or they're seeding us, or as Jacques Vallet says, it's like, you know, here's the key, can you unlock the cage kind of thing? Right? Yeah. And it seems that it would be a long, I mean, if you think about biological evolution, so long lengthy process, and if ultimately that led us to the creation of a technology that's far superior [01:52:02] in terms of its capabilities of understanding and thinking, that seems to be what's happening. And that's one of the reasons why so many people are concerned about the term artificial intelligence is a very strange term because it's not artificial. It's intelligence. It's silicon based, it's carbon based. Yeah, it just doesn't have blood and tissue and cells, but it has something that's superior. It also has something that's superior. But also it's something that's much more scalable, right? We have a very obvious biological limitation in terms of evolution. You know, if you look at evolution, we turn it back to the orangutans that are fishing. They're obviously learning new things. And those new properties for those new things, we assume will be encoded in their genetics and then passed to their children. Do you have children? No, I have three dogs. We went to a fluffy dad. This problem is dogs don't learn from. What they do. One of the most bizarre things about children is that they have properties that are clearly [01:53:00] hard to say, right? Because my children obviously have the example of my wife and myself, and they obviously see a lot of how we live our life and discipline and hard work and creativity and all those things. But there's also, they seem to have gifts that are, they seem to be clearly genetic. Yeah. And artistic gifts that just seem extraordinary, that are unusual, that I had when I was younger, that I was an illustrator, I have a young daughter that's just extraordinarily good at art. Really? You say illustrator? Yeah. Yeah. It's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a comic book illustrator. Oh, interesting, that's what I wanted to do. I wouldn't be a comic book illustrator. Oh, interesting interesting. Yeah but Then I have this other daughter that's super gifted Athletically like she can learn things really quickly. It's extraordinary It's and it's weird and and also this drive that she has I had a drive from poverty and from you know a lot of like [01:54:03] Stuff that was wrong with my childhood that seemed to be I had this need to prove myself. She doesn't have any of those problems, but she also has this insane drive. It's weird. It's a weird discipline. It's extraordinary. That seems to be very different than most kids. And I just think that's an emerging genetic problem. I think there's something encoded in whatever you are as a human that as you replicate and as you have children, they have that. They have some of that. And I think that is this process, this biological evolutionary process with humans. But there's so much chaos, there's so much, I mean, you could breed with a dumb person. You could find a hot dumb person, and have a baby with them, not your kids fucked. And then we see that. This obviously, some people are just born with brains and just don't work that well. This is just like, I'm sure you've met some dull-minded people, and you try to talk to about things, and there's no one there. You're right. [01:55:05] Okay, good luck. Good luck with whatever children you have and whatever, what are they going to have? Well, the word genetic. Yeah, we're genetically encoding artificial intelligence now. I think that's where you were going. Yeah, whatever going with it, these biological limitations that we have, it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a Model T as opposed to a Tesla, which is just insanely superior to these ancient vehicles. Yeah. We create technology. I've always said this, if you looked at the human race, if you were some sort of an outside observer, and you stumbled upon this thing that occupies this planet, this apex predator of this planet, you would say, what is this thing doing? What's making technology? All the other things that it does, it does all these other things, but what are these things generally motivate? What do they move towards? They move towards the advancement of technology and innovation. [01:56:01] There's a constant aspect of human beings. If you trace us back to the earliest civilizations to what we have today Things constantly improve unless something goes horribly wrong unless there's some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of Yeah Yeah, genocide if something doesn't happen to these creatures. What do they do? They consistently make better things Well that if you extrapolate if you follow that to its natural progression, well, what is that going to get to? Well, once they've invented computers, and once they've invented devices, and once they've invented things that enhance their personal understanding of the world around them, which we already have now with phones. We already have with the internet. We already have with our ability to communicate with each other. We are the newest latest Android phones that are coming out will Translate natively on your phone in real time in conversation. So you could be speaking Portuguese to me I would hear it in English on a phone call which is fucking wise crazy. That's like universal translator [01:57:01] Star Trek literally yes literally. Yeah, Well, that is a real thing now. With that habit, and to use Google Translate, it's native to the latest Android operating system. If you just sit down and said, well, where's that going? Well, it's going to something way more sophisticated and way more capable than we are biologically with our limitations. Our monkey capable than we are biologically with our limitations. Our monkey bodies, we are the ancestors or the people that emerge from that distant cousin that are orangutine that's using a stick to hunt fish. We're going in this direction. What would be the most logical way we would completely accelerate that? We create something that does what we do, but does it weigh better? Yeah, it's almost like the permanently harbor our consciousness eventually, right? Right. And that's all that makes sense. Right. It doesn't make sense. And there's a sort of understanding of that that leads to this fear of our demise, that [01:58:00] everyone, you know, Elon's openly discussed this, Sam Altman and I were talking about it, what open AI is doing, what chat GPT-4 versus chat GBT-5, which is going to be insanely superior. Well, what is chat GBT-15 going to do? You know, is that going to be the president of the world? You know, like, are we going to bypass government and just say, it's obvious like this administration is incredibly corrupt and flawed and influenced by the military industrial complex. It's not good for the world. It's not good for the environment. We need something that is far superior that doesn't have all these motivations. Well, what would that be? That would be an artificial intelligent creator that we, or a creation rather rather that we use the government life. Yeah. I mean, that sounds nuts, but I think that's probably a better solution than humans with all of our fucking flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the things that we have. That would be a better version of it. But what are we saying then? [01:59:01] Are we saying that we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're actually like emphathy into it though? You know, like probably not, yeah, yeah. Probably not, which is terrifying. But we will become obsolete and or we will merge. And if we merge, it will completely change what we are. And I think that's very likely what's going to take place. I think the initial stages will be some sort of emerging with technology, and then from that merging, it will essentially realize, well, why are we even fucking around? This new thing is so superior, and it doesn't have all the pitfalls. It doesn't have all the problems. It's not short-sighted. It's not going to drain the ocean of fish so that we can make sushi. It's going to do something that's going to be far more aware of all of the different effects of each individual act and how we affect everything around us and what is net positive and what is net negative and how to avoid all these things. I really firmly believe that we are this [02:00:08] biological caterpillar that is making it cocoon to create the electronic butterfly. We don't even know what we're doing while we're doing it. We're just doing it. I think materialism has also baked into that. One of the main problems with human beings in terms of the ridiculousness of our actions. We're so materialistic. People are constantly wanting to get the newest, latest, greatest thing. What's the motivation behind that other than social status? Well, the motivation is that that's what fuels innovation. If we all just stop right now, it's that, hey, you know what? iPhone 15 is pretty fucking dope. We don't need to make new iPhones. Let's just keep fixing those and just like exist the way we are right now and let's clean up the air and let's clean up the ocean, let's clean up the sea and clean up the rivers and clean up the forest. Like, what is this fixed the earth? And then, no, we don't do that. No, I want iPhone 16. You know, when is the iPhone going to be able to communicate completely just with satellites? We don't have to worry about cell phones. Well, it's almost like a drug addiction, right? [02:01:06] They did studies where people receiving in text messages is the dopamine rush too. Yeah. So it's almost like an artificial drug addiction you're fueling because you want the more responsive tech, more integrating with your, make easier so you can get your fix quicker and more efficiently or something like that. I don't know. Right. And why? I mean, why would fucking staring at a stupid cell phone give you a dopamine rush? Well, it does. It does out of data. I'm not a biologist. I don't know what that does. And you get addicted to your goddamn phones. And then why would it be that we would innovate and create things like Instagram and TikTok that are insanely addictive to the point where you look down and you've spent three hours staring at nothing, nonsense. Like what, what, why is that? Well, that ensures a continual use of this device until it lures you into this ultimate integration. Well, it's right, well, there's people [02:02:01] at Meta, I guess, now, or Facebook, where they actually have a whole team of scientists on how to make their apps more addictive, right? So demons. Yeah. Fucking demons. I don't use social media. I have never tweeted in my life, really? That's amazing. I mean, I have like, I use Facebook back in the day when it first came out when I was going to college. Yeah, I don't, don't even, I've never tweeted in my life. I don't intend to, because you don't wanna get sucked into that mind virus, which is like, people responding you, you have to feel like you have to respond back. I don't even touch it. So I'm a very aware of those traps, so I don't do that. I don't, I used to, but many years ago I stopped interacting with people, because I just realized overall it's negative. There's positive aspects to it. It's great for people that like you and their fans, it's great to that you're an actual human that you interact, occasionally a common on a post, that's really awesome. Congratulations. [02:03:00] That kind of stuff, but then I get the fuck out of there and I don't read any responses. And I found that that's the very best way to mitigate all the negative aspects of social media. But then you're also dealing with algorithms, you're dealing with things that recognize what makes you more likely to engage. And so those things are constantly showing you the things that you engage. And it's not necessarily even positive. It's just whatever you engage with. It's coming your way. Whether it could be cool stuff. Like, maybe you're just like really into muscle cars and it shows you a lot of muscle cars or it could be like murder. Like I see a lot of murder on Instagram. It's fucking crazy. Yeah, but car guys, so like my feed is like, oh, do you ever think about this mod for your Ford Bronco? Well, those lights look nice. Why are that shit up next week? Yeah, so I get those too. It's bad. So I have a problem with that. I have a car problem. Yeah, my wife doesn't allow me to have the good stuff anymore. So I have to keep it under a certain price. Oh, that's good. That's good. I'm more actually interested in old stuff that I am a new stuff. I mean like a like rat rod stuff, right? Well, I like muscle cars. [02:04:06] Like this, very specifically, 1960s muscle cars. Those are my favorite because what they are to me is it's a toy that you could drive. It's like a ride that gives me immense pleasure to just drive around and it's really fun. I don't even have to go fast. It's just going around in a 1970 Cheval just driving it. It's hard to describe for someone who doesn't ever experienced it, but it's just so engaging, and it's like you're on this drug. It's like, boom, boom, boom. It's like everything you feel all of it, and you're engaging all of these senses. It's a very tactile, very mathematical, I totally understand that. I mean, the only kind of old cars I like are like black Lincoln cotton and old suisized toys. That's a good one. From the Matrix, I've never seen that when I was a teen when the Matrix came out. I'm like, that car is badass. It's like, totally, I want to have whatever more fiestro. There are, there essentially art. It's functional art. [02:05:06] Like you could, it's a piece of art that you could actually drive around in. And it gives you this very bizarre sensation. But the point is that that's not most people. Most people want the newest, latest, greatest thing. And there's a motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing that I think if you just Follow that up to its logical conclusion. It's going to create life. It's going to create I mean, how many films have been made about this, you know X Machina and all these different films that's right. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do We're gonna do I mean there's no way we're not gonna do that It's it's if I had a bet on one thing if the human race doesn't get wiped out by a man what we're gonna do, there's no way we're not gonna do that. If I had a bet on one thing, if the human race doesn't get wiped out by a meteor or a nuclear war, we're gonna fucking do that. We're gonna make a life form, 100%, and it's going to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the flaws in its own personal programming [02:06:02] and make a much better version of itself. If it's sentient, if it has the ability to make decisions well i think we're close to me and i think i saw some stuff there's like a open a i fiasco going on right now there's rumor that they might have cracked artificial general intelligence right a g i and that's oh jeez that's frightening i mean as i could was it uh... same old man i think we're talking about i think think there's like a board of open AI, there's some shuffle. I was just moving. What I'm going to draw in my back. Well they removed him, but then apparently the shareholders, like what the fuck are you doing? And there was so much outrage that they're trying to bring him back instantly. But Elon had a very good point, like what was the motivation behind that? And when you think about the implications for humanity as a whole, because this is such an emerging technology that's so overwhelmingly powerful, what happened? Like what's going on? Like I think this is one of those things where like, we need to know like what was the motivation behind your decision? And if it was that he was holding back information [02:07:03] about the actual creation of artificial general intelligence. That it's already happened. And that he's hesitant. Because he's a little cagey in how he talks about stuff. When I was talking to him about, you could tell, he's like, is that he's like a little bit? He kind of knows that he is at the forefront of this technology that worst case scenario replaces us. Yeah, and going back to his program with any kind of empathy, etc. depending on if it handles critical. I guess the thing I saw in the government because I did a lot of cyber stuff in my career is as AI gets more advanced you you know you create say offensive cyber tools that literally have a mind of their own and if say theoretically you release that on some target and you might not be able to touch that target again say it's a one time whoop you put it [02:08:02] in there well how do you control it it's's almost like SkyNet and the Terminator, I hate to raise that analogy, but like, that was my fear when I was working at certain agencies, working on offensive cyber tools. I'm like, oh my God, this is not good. And then of course, with cyber, right, it said the attribution, actor attribution is the biggest thing. How do you know it was hypothetically Russia that used the cyber weapon to attack you? It could have been another actor masquerading as that foreign power using tactics techniques procedures, IP proxy operations, the hide where it was coming from. So it's like you have non-kinetic fires that can potentially create mutually a short destruction because you could take out critical infrastructure, blow up the power grid, et cetera. No radiation, but potentially no attribution or confuse the attributes and such that you don't even know who to go to war with. [02:09:01] It's a really scary to me. So it is scary. Yeah, that's just my own. It's already happening with social media. Yeah. I mean, think about how many troll farms there are on social media that are just stirring up discontent. Yeah. I mean, it's an active program that we know that Russia uses that is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people fighting with each other. And it's been very effective. I mean, if you look at social media, it's just fucking chaos. It's just people yelling at you, particularly Twitter or X. That's in Facebook. It's like a lot of what's going on. One of the studies showed that out of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook, 19 of them are run by Russian troll farms. So if we know that that on, like relatively rudimentary scale, if you look at the impact of social media versus the impact of artificial intelligence, they're already doing that. They're already hiding who's responsible and what's the goal and how to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate influence [02:10:02] and how people think about things and what the public opinion on things are. It's already very effective. You would all imagine that a creation of artificial intelligence would radically accelerate that. 100%. I remember the deep fake stuff was a real problem for my old community because we're like, holy shit, you could really fake some stuff and you got to develop algorithms to make sure you can analyze, oh hey, that is fake. Cause you've seen some of the deep fakes where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes. And with the Tom Cruise guy. Holy shit. Holy shit. That is crazy. You're gonna be able to bring actors from the dead back at this point. You're gonna have like carry grant You know do an amuseical or whatever you know whatever you know as well Bruce Willis who has some sort of a generate that's right a genera of neurological condition sold his likeness for the ability to make commercials and all sorts of other things like he's essentially saying he's fading [02:11:02] unfortunately and Now he will give this thing which is this property which is Bruce Willis this famous person and they'll be able to create Versions of him Starring in films. Oh, and certainly if you train an AI model just like chat GPT You could actually get almost like what they would normally say what 100%. And it's almost like having a permanent historian too, you could like, you know, if you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his films in the 60s after Clint Eastwood, you know, passes, you know, may live forever, but like, that would be, it'd be crazy. It'd be really interesting, but I mean, he might actually be able to give you advice. He might be your personal advisor. I know. That would be cool. I mean, that's probably one of the things that's going to come out of this. But when we think about empathy, we also think about just human beings and the way we communicate and interact with each other. Empathy is very important and also compassion and forgiveness. All these things are very important qualities [02:12:00] because we recognize that we're very flawed. But when you create something that is not flawed, then the need for empathy, the need for all these things that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems, they will no longer be a significant issue because you're going to be dealing with something that operates on a higher plane. It might be the answer to all that ails us, which is so terrifying for us because we recognize that what we derive, the joy that we derive from love, from companionship, from friendship, from community, it's like a key component to life on earth for us. But it's also because we recognize that without that, we are the Mongols. Without that, we're Nazi Germany. Without that, you know, we're Hamas, we're whatever the fuck we are that's that we are the Mongols. Without that we're Nazi Germany. Without that, you know, we're Hamas. We're whatever the fuck we are that's that we recognize as being like evil or dangerous or horrible about humans. When we think about the worst case scenario for human beings, we always think about things like the Holocaust. We think about what is the worst the worst acts that human [02:13:03] beings are capable of with our current programming and our biological flaws. Like what is the worst, the worst acts that human beings are capable of with our current programming and our biological flaws. Like what are the worst things we can do? To terrible, awful things. Well, if we don't have those problems, if we no longer have envy, we no longer have greed, we no longer have evil, we no have any of those properties, they don't exist anymore. We just have this new form of consciousness that's far superior. That's an interesting parallel because you're no longer maybe Apex sentience if you have artificial intelligence, governing certain things. And I think that's also kind of this psychological issue with this UAP issue where we might not be the Apex predator. We have, we may be that mountain lion. And we're gonna have to be comfortable knowing that we're gonna be vulnerable. There's people far superior that may have malevolent intentions, maybe not, I don't know. [02:14:02] And almost be humbled the fact that like, sorry, we're not the smartest of God's creation. And that might be really hard for a lot of people to process. And I think that's probably certainly, I would imagine one of the deliberations they must have done years ago, like, oh, we can't disclose because, you know, people are not gonna feel comfortable in that worldview. 100%. And they're not. And then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing are the natural progression of what happens when you do seed life on planet or you do accelerate biological life. You do have some sort of a genetic intervention where you take this thing that it has emerging intelligence and you accelerate it. And that thing will in turn with all of its desire for innovation and creativity and also all of its desire to control resources and have power and have influence that it will eventually [02:15:01] lead to the creation of what we're seeing, that these things are the next stage of this process. And that maybe we're dealing with one form of that next stage, but there's another stage that's a million years more advanced than that, that's far superior, that doesn't even have a biological limitation in terms of physical space, that it exists completely in some other undetectable realm that is no longer, no longer thinks about biological limitations of life and death and communication, it exists completely in some other space. That's what these things are. And then I always wonder when there's a crash or when there's a body or when there's a body or when there's this and that like and people say well what if they're so advanced why are they crashing well hold on what what what version are we looking at we're not saying there's one thing that's visiting us if there's one thing that's visiting us and we know where [02:16:00] this one thing is we could say oh well that thing it deals with a completely different solar system this one is vulnerable it doesn't say, oh, well, that thing, it deals with a completely different solar system, this one is vulnerable, it doesn't have asteroid clouds, it doesn't have all these different things where it's like, it doesn't have a planet that has super volcanoes, maybe life evolved in a more stable environment, and it allowed it to get to a far greater technological level, but not the ultimate. Yeah, we might be testing the extent of their adaptability. And like I said, are they crashing by accident? Right. Mission failure or on purpose. Right. So, and then of course, with the far distances and everything, I mean, if they're traveling here through some kind of space-time metric engineering construct, you know, the distances are not as vast as you think, right? It can be going through some kind of, you know, traversable wormhole or something like that where it's like a walk down the street for them It's not, you know, a thousand light years. We'll just think about communication. Just our communication used to be you had to get in front of someone and they had to talk to them. So you had to know their language, you had to either nonverbal or verbal communication, you had to figure out a way to say things to them. [02:17:05] Yeah. That's no longer the case. Obviously with this new Android operating system, it translates, but also the fact that you could have a fucking FaceTime call with someone in Japan right now, and you instantaneously can communicate back and forth, which is insane. That's a vast distance, but for us it's like stupid. It's like, yeah. Easy. Vast distance and instant for which is insane. That's a vast distance, but for us it's like stupid. It's like yeah easy vast distance and instantaneous. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just in Scotland and I was facetiming my daughter back home. Yeah. Fucking crazy. You're nine hours by plane and you're having instantaneous communication shit. But that's just that's fucking that that's like pong, you know, that's that's a morse code. That's like it's very primitive in terms of what if you physically can be in these places instantaneous? Yeah. And why why would we assume that that's not eventually going to be on the menu? Yeah, it's just like the conventional propulsion stuff. We're [02:18:05] not using an Elon Musk Starship to get here. It's like they're doing something else. We talked to someone from the 1800s and you said, you're going to go to Nevada, Jesus Christ. You know how far that is on a wagon? That's months, man. You fly to Vegas. It's two hours. It's fucking easy. We know that now. So why would we assume that there's a limitation to that advancement? I don't think so. Yeah. And of course, for the Monaric Weinstein, certainly, expels us, we don't even have the right theoretical frameworks right now. You know, he has his own geometric unity theory and he's way smarter than that. He's too smart. But he's confusing. Yeah. He started talking and you're like, I look out. If he calls me, I'm like, you got to call me in the morning after my 24 ounce monster energy drink or I can't even keep up, man. It's like, so he's on another level. He has some, he's got some unique theories himself about where all this stuff is coming from. And it's all very, very, very interesting and intriguing. But also [02:19:08] makes sense. All of it makes sense, including being visited. You know, I had this conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson. Like, why would they be interested in us? I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? We're super interested. Yeah. Neil, I mean, obviously he's a fine science communicator kind of the successor of kind kind of the Carl Seigen kind of... I think Carl Seigen was a little bit more up in mind. Yeah, yeah. I like Carl better, but I'm more of a fan. I wish he was still alive. I love the small, big backpack guy. I watched Carl in a weed. Oh really? Yeah, really, really into it. I remember my aunt gave me cosmos by Carl Seigen when I was in middle school and it was that book was from the 80s, but that book tripped me out. And I was like, I want to study science. And I read, it was brief history of time by Stephen Hawking. And I read those two books when I was like an eighth grade. And I was like, this is trippy. I want to study astronomy. This is insane. But I ultimately [02:20:00] used kind of my technical background to be a spook, you know, for the government. But use kind of my technical background to be a spook, you know, for the government, but I still observe I have a big telescope And I live like super dark skies in Colorado. I still have that boyhood fascination of the cosmos now Ironically I found out something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos is Not lifeless and you know god paints with a broad brush as like the Vatican Yeah, six spals the couple years ago when they said this is okay with their theology not lifeless and God paints with a broad brush as like the Vatican has six bowels a couple years ago when they said this is okay with their theology. I have a theory that the universe itself is God. That's like what I was talking about with the multi-dimensional creator creating universes. I think we have a very limited idea of when we say God when God created the heavens and like right, but what do we say? I think it's the universe itself I think it's one thing and that this one thing it seeks to create these things that continually push the envelope and maybe God's themselves eventually I think if you [02:21:03] extrapolate from our ability versus the ability of an amoeba, and you continue to move that along, what does that do? Well, it's going to be able to create universes. There's already been like theoretical papers that have been written about the creation of other things like black holes, other things like a universe. So what is involved in the creation of a universe? What is involved in the Big Bang? Can that be replicated? Well, not now, but if AI becomes sentient and AI eventually makes far greater versions of itself, if it keeps doing that, like what are the limits of its potential? Creates the matrix. It literally creates a simulated environment that's indisternable. You can't tell the difference between that and regular life. Well maybe because there is no difference. Maybe that is. That's the theory of simulation theory. [02:22:00] Yes, simulation theory, yeah. Familiar. That is a possibility because the universe seems like a little too perfect It's a little strange very created to me. So just like we're in the Goldilocks zone, perfect temperature Like it's just real about the big bang itself. Yeah, what what happened? Something smaller than the head of a pin For for no known reason becomes everything. Yeah. Okay. And what's the universe expanding into? Right. It's like a quantum foam or whatever the latest theory is that's like beyond me. And then it perhaps just retracts back down to that infinitely small thing and then expands again. Yeah. And it's just an endless cycle. And that we're just so limited because of our biological limitations or our life and death is such a small little tiny blip. It's so minuscule in terms of just the overall known life of the universe. And then you have the James Webb telescope that's, you know, there's people that question [02:23:03] the actual length of time that it occurred between the big bang and now that maybe it might be far longer and there's people like Brian Keating to say that's not correct it's just a lack of understanding of what we understand currently about the creation of galaxies. Yeah because I mean obviously the length of the age of the universe keeps in getting older and older and a lot of that's because of the Doppler shift, right, the red shift. Yes. The galaxies are accelerating away. We can calculate what their origin point probably was and how long it took for them to speed up like that, right? And only based on our current understanding, which is obviously at least fairly limited in terms of what its potential is. Well, yeah, we still don't quite understand the origin of the moon. The moon is at the right location, the causes solar and lunar eclipses. It's like the right apparent size to block out the sun. It's like super weird. Same thing with Mars, we're not sure. [02:24:00] Like what happened near where Mars had some probable life on it, either our proto-planet hit it, or there was some kind of impact that vaporized stuff and like who knows? Yeah, who knows? And this is just this little tiny neighborhood that we're looking at. It's like we are in our backyard looking for evidence of life in Africa. Like you know, you're not going to figure it out. Yeah. We're just looking at it's such a small scale in terms of what we could potentially discover or potentially observe. Yeah. I often wonder when we're seeing, especially with the idea of UAP's UFO crafts, if we're seeing a version of what we will become or something like us becomes if given enough time. Well, that, I mean, there's like a Dr. Mike Masters at Montana State. He literally postulates, you know, he says time travelers, we could debate time travel, [02:25:00] but like he thinks it might be like a advanced form of Homo sapien is what we're seeing coming back. Yeah. Like a breakaway civilization and we're coming back to see an older version of our self that was left on earth or something like that. Well, the way we would visit like North Sentinel Island and visit those people that are trapped on that island that are yeah, uncontacted. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then a lot of, you know, there's also like cargo-cult religions and stuff, you know, the South Pacific, and we'll work too. They worshiped the P-51 and stuff like they thought those were UFOs, but really they were just us, you know. So, and I think we were probably alien to them. I mean, it comes, yeah, I mean, just look at how Cortez looked to the people that, you know, had no idea that people could ride horses. Like, what the fuck is going on? These guys are riding horses? Yeah. These are God. These white guys coming in, what the heck? Yeah, and what the heck? They've come on a ship in the ocean and they ride horses. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it's all based on our limited understanding. And for someone, whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors, for someone to have key [02:26:07] elements that could give us a better understanding of this whole picture. It's really inexcusable to not relay that to all of humanity. So this is too much information to be secret. It's too important. If it is real, it's too important for someone to have access to just because they have power and money and influence. It seems insane. I mean, that's the whole primer for what I did. I mean, I think I'm a pretty more unethical person. I just cannot live with myself if I didn't try to make a difference. Even though it was very uncomfortable, personal privacy, and professional and personal health was at risk. It also seems like the public understanding and appreciation of these things, particularly after the 2017 article on New York Times has changed. [02:27:03] There's been a shift. Whereas before, if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extraterrestrial life You are automatically lumped into this group of people that believes in Bigfoot You know, it's like you're in they're in the Loch Ness monster You're kind of a loon who likes fringe things because probably got problems in your own life You're not addressing and so you just acted. Yeah, a gambler or something that. You're just like distracting yourself with this craziness in order to ignore the reality of existence itself, which is so complicated and difficult to manage. And then I think that if we had a better understanding of the overall scale of the potential of life in the universe based on what we know, like physical evidence, undeniable physical evidence that shows us that we're not alone. That would be a massive change in just the overall shift of consciousness on earth. If we could understand that these territorial disputes [02:28:02] that we have, which are almost always over resources or over land or over religions and ideologies if we can understand that these are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself and this is the uh... the what was that effect that the people that get into the space they should have and astronauts over view, the overview effect. Yeah, the overview. William Schattener had that when he went up in the Blue Origin thing. I'm sure everybody has it. I mean, I'm sure it's just like, you go like, oh my god, like what are we doing? This is one. And that's how I felt. I mean, like after I found all this stuff, I could have continued my career, you know, made Lieutenant Colonel here this winter, made senior executive service in a year or two, did national security stuff, but I'm like sitting in my office, and I'm like, there's better things for me to care about then Russian troop movements like we're not alone. Right. like, blow the whistle on this, this is insane. Because certainly the people we talk to are not lying. [02:29:06] And the documents I meticulously went through, they were not forgeries, they were not deception material. So it's just like, I have to do something. I'm sure you've seen those Freedom of Information Act disclosure papers from the CIA, from God, it was like the 1950s, or the detailing all the various forms of life, and that we know currently exist. Remember that, Jamie, we pulled up that document. Do you think you can find it? Jamie will find it. But I feel like 1950s something, where they were discussing these things. Interesting. Yeah, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about. I have to see them. It's pretty pretty weird stuff because if they knew about this in the 1950s, how did they know? Well, there was like CIA docs about consciousness and weird remote viewing stuff. I mean, besides the Stargate program that were released in the FOIA reading room on CIA's website, too, that are pretty trippy. We're like, see how he's looking into some really interesting stuff. I mean, they're a hardcore intel agency. [02:30:08] What's going on there? But it makes sense that they would kind of have to find out if that's bullshit or not. Like you can't ignore that if you're really doing your job. If your job is intelligence, like okay, like let's look at this. Or it's an aspect of the phenomenon because it's like a reach out from the crash retrieval program. I'm like, hey, I need you to look into some weird stuff because it might be the key unlock for something that we got in a warehouse. Yeah. So, as it stands right now, what's the future for this stuff? What's the future for these disclosures and what are the bottlenecks? Well, I mean, certainly from the governmental process, you know, as long as the house doesn't kill the Schumer mement and I'm, you know, that's why I'm discussing it here with you because if they don't pass it, it's going to be the greatest setback to humankind in US history, literally. [02:31:02] So the presidential panel gets and panelled about 90 days or so after the passage of the bill. So by Christmas, as long as it doesn't get killed, we'll be in the National Defense Authorization Act. Panel will be formed, say February March. Then they have a 300 day process to develop a initial plan for the president. And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff were being kind of crafty or whatever, but the 300 days, if you actually do it out, it's like the election. So I don't know if they want to make it an election issue, which certainly if this act doesn't pass, I think it needs to be an election issue because the senior executive needs to rule on this if Congress can't get their shit together be quite honest and We have a plan out the 2030 where this stuff starts getting rolled out knock on wood perfect storm things could get delayed But then in parallel and that's kind of why I [02:32:01] Helped found the sole foundation with Gary Nolan and Dr. Peter Skatefish who's an anthropologist as well is we wanted to Figure out the stem outreach we wanted to figure out the public policy national policy to advise the US and its allies on this issue You know and we're happy Like I said, I'm not here to slap the government in its entirety and monitor everybody like I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process But I think our foundation we want to be like okay, well Bring us in as a think tank if you know based on my experience and experience of my colleagues like you have an issue with X Well, let's figure out how to Roll this out and how to you know incentivize the national science foundation to look in this make Make this like, it's dual use, right? You might develop a unique scientific process that actually works well with nanobiology or something like that, but it also has dual use with UAP. So there's parallel tracks. [02:33:01] I mean, there's public discoveries, there's like the Galileo project with Avi Loeb, right? That they're trying to, on their own, collect techno signatures, which is, I applaud that. I mean, obviously the government knows a lot about that, but we don't want to obviously rely on the US government to do all the work for us and also to be honest. So I think having a parallel track and Galileo projects, so Foundation, Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for pilots and people who've seen unique things to provide that data to people. So, I think you got to have those dual tracks. And, hopefully, we can create a tsunami event where the US government is allies, and maybe our adversaries. But really, if the US government doesn't get their house in order here, I mean, you could have a uncontrolled disclosure events such that either maybe the non-human intelligence is like, yeah, let's do it. Or what if one of our adversaries decides to disclose [02:34:00] and they become the Messiah figure on this and we lose sovereignty or national supremacy and that regard from an open and honest civil society perspective. But I think the governments were getting close, I think, as long as we've been closer than we've ever been before. Yeah. Just the fact that they brought you in to have these conversations. Yeah, I know. I'm still advising the US government on this and I'm trying to carefully message this, put all the broad things on the table and I'm not trying to be coy and I'm not trying to be conceal anything but it's like there's real national security and collateral damage with just releasing this willy nilly and I'm just trying to get the government to get a plan together here and Just be open and honest with the people the world really so and there's still the bottleneck with these military contractors that Allegedly have access to these things. Yeah, and like to to those guys and I know some of them and the individuals that [02:35:01] Hold the keys Like this is a boon like this is don't look at it, like you're gonna lose money. You, this is a recruiting opportunity. Yes, you're gonna have to let other people in the cookie jar, that's how a fair and free society works, and they should be able to compete for work. And because that was one of the main, I talked to some individuals that were in an informal session for a previous administration on, should we disclose or not for a certain former president and really insightful what they told me and one of the biggest impasses to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from a socio-economic or theological perspective it was well there's some white collar crime we violated the federal acquisition regulations we so sourced this work to some big companies for decades. Contractors are going to litigate this to the Supreme Court, saying they lost billions of projected income because they didn't get the bid on the work. And it's going to be this liability disaster for the US government. And the problem with that is, is like, I understand that, [02:36:02] but that's why you need to have a truth and reconciliation process. It's almost like the truth and reconciliation commission and post apartheid South Africa, where people who committed like murder came in and was like, this is what happened. Here you go, and you know, they don't get convicted of those crimes. And I'm not, I mean, people who've committed murder as it relates to the subject, okay, we should probably hold them accountable. But for some of this stuff, there needs to be a process where we kind of mitigate some of those unfortunate legal issues. But that was one of the main issues, a certain group for a reasonably recent administration came up with and advised that president, hey, look, there's going to be a lot of Supreme Court stuff. Let's not be that guy. That makes sense. So it's like, that's the barrier. That's the reason. Come on. Well, it's ridiculous. It makes sense though that they would think that way because I do believe that lawsuits would emerge from something like that. Oh, certainly. And also, it's like the government admitting that we can't protect that citizenry. [02:37:10] These non-human intelligence wanna do something to you, sorry, we don't let encounter measures to that. It's like this, there's a social contract between the citizens and the government. We can protect you, et cetera. And in this case, it's like it's an enigma. But I think this is almost like, you remember after 9-11, I was in high school when 9-11 happened and you know, people were afraid of dirty bombs, terrorists. We didn't know what was going to happen next. We lived in fear, but like, you know, we banded together in the presence of fear and apprehension and unknowing what the world was going to be. And we made it through it. Now, I mean, that's a course analogy to this, but people just have to think in that mindset, like it's gonna be a little scary. It's not gonna be like, cum baya'a, let's move the shit to the misowning and check it out. It's gonna be this awkward and things we're gonna have to address sociologically, I guess. [02:38:01] Are you optimistic about how all this lays out? I am, I mean, it's kind of like When I was testifying in the public hearing Oddly bipartisan in a good way. I had a OC and Matt gates like agreeing on something and they were like smiling at each other That's crazy. It's crazy. You know, I'm like look at there's a OC. There's Matt gates There's Timbershot. I mean, there's people Garcia, like people that wouldn't see eye to eye on most such a human issue. Because they wouldn't know the truth too. And I don't think the leaders in Congress wanna be told that they're second class citizens. I mean, a lot of presidents weren't briefed everything. Some presidents knew a lot more than others, and I have a pretty good beat on that. And it's like, wait, the chief executive that also forms foreign policy, you don't tell them about a, ostensibly a foreign element. So how do they, as chief of state, how do they form foreign policy when you don't fully brief them on a foreign element? It's like classifying the existence of Russia. [02:39:01] Right, right. So you're actually, you know, non-constitutional by not allowing our commander in chief all information sometimes. And I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe Biden. I mean, it was certainly the substance that I mentioned here. And I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on the program, so to speak. At least I'm giving him an oral unclassified briefing right now, I guess if he hasn't been, and I'm happy to talk to Jake Sullivan or Avril Haynes and Avril Haynes if she's not briefed, like she's supposed to be briefed all intelligence in the country, it's 50 US code section 3024. Your director now, national intelligence has allowed everything from all federal agencies that's in tell related. Well, ma'am, if you don't know what I'm talking about, we have a problem because you're not being briefed by CI director and some other agencies. So. Well, listen, David, I really appreciate what you've done. [02:40:04] I think you've done a great service to humanity just by taking a stand and communicating these ideas and letting people know how much of this is real. And you know, you've opened up a world of discourse that probably would not have existed if you hadn't done that. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, this is not easy. I'm sure. So I appreciate it. Thank you very much for being here.