#2134 - Paul Stamets

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Paul Stamets

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Paul Stamets is a mycologist and advocate for bioremediation and medicinal fungi. He has written, edited, and contributed to several books, including "Mycelium Running: How Mushrooms Can Save the World," and "Fantastic Fungi: How Mushrooms Can Heal, Shift Consciousness, and Save the Planet."www.paulstamets.com

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iamjoerogan

2mo ago

micro dosing to this right now, really enhances the experience (i mean placebo effect)

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What's going on my friend? How are you? Good to see you again. Good to see you brother. It's been a while. It's been a while and there's a lot of interesting developments. So this is the never-ending story I feel. The never-ending story of mushrooms. Yeah. So this giant one that you brought me, explain this again? Because you were telling me out there, I'm like, let's save this for the show. This is crazy. Sure. This is the best gift that I can give from a mycologist to a friend. This is a rare old-growth mushroom called a garacon. Only grows in the old old growth forest is now in the red list of threatened species in Europe this one was found on the ground folks so it's important that people don't pick these they're very rare literally one out of a hundred times in the old growth forest I'll find one so this is a really important that people understand how important biodiversity microdiversity we're talking about fungi. Agericon was first described by diascurides over 2000 years ago as Elexerium ad longum vitamin, the elixir of long life, is also revered by the Hida and the Clicket in the Northwest First Nations as a much from very important for their own farm racopea. So 2,000 years history of use other sides of the world and directly after 911 I was approached by the bio shield by defense department and they ran over 2,200 assays. The concern was weaponizable viruses. So they saw an article I wrote in herbal gram called novel antivirals from mushrooms, a whopping one page long. That's all that was in the scientific literature. So I knew in my intuition this rare species could have some properties of more than two million samples tested by the US [2:03] Defense Department, US Anne-R U.M. Army Research Institute and FUXUS diseases, NIH, and collaboration of more than two million samples, synthetics and natural compounds. We were in the top 10 of all samples active against, in this case, Poxvire versus, and we were the only natural product. So there's a vetted press release that talks about this that came out in 2004. So I have dedicated my life, you know, I have a company, unfortunately, I put them out a lot of my resources. I've literally spent millions of dollars collecting strains from the old growth forest and I'm happy to announce that we have more than 100 and seven strains of a garicone isolated from northern California even Northern Arizona, British Columbia, and in Europe. I have now the largest culture library of a garicone in the world. And so people go, why is it important? Well, it's not important because the old growth force or declining, I mean, there's less than 1%. [3:04] But I believe the old growth forests are cultural libraries that will be essential for bio-defense. And from the research that we did with a bio-shield program in 2004, then I have a TED talk in 2008 that talks about this. And that I'm very thankful that we have completed a COVID-19 clinical trial. The results of Rich was presented at the Georgetown University of Medicine, School of Medicine on September 23rd, 2023. And what we looked at in my colleagues and superb physicians and researchers led by a great team at the Crop Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of California San Diego. And it's a double blind placebo controlled study. And in that study, the idea was to look at vaccine enhancement. So before mRNA vaccines, there's just so much noise and confusion and, you know, the sense [4:03] that dust hadn't settled enough but the MRNA enhancement vaccine which is called Mach 19 they gave half the patients a placebo which was my sodium grown on rice of I'm sorry just rice and a garicon and turkey tail combined that were grown on rice so one the control control of placebo is just rice, neutral. And the other one is a garacon on turkey tail that turkey tail is the most well-studied medicinal mushroom in the world. We populate a website for physicians at mushroomreferences.com, no branding, just pure science. People can go to mushroomreferences.com and see this. So double- line placebo controlled and they literally recruited people directly out of vaccination lines where people getting Pfizer or Moderna vaccines. And said, hey, you want to be involved in a medicinal mushroom vaccine study, enhancement study. And people then signed up. [5:01] And so they got high, they consumed a gyroconoconturcatedl or the placebo for four days. And then they measured symptoms post vaccination and then six months out. And so there are two slides that I have that I sent along to that I'm allowed to show. When you say symptoms post vaccination, what do you mean? Well, it's not quite showing up there, Jamie, for some reason the chart. Both of them might have to do a PNG on the snapshot. Which one do you want both at the same time? No, just see if you can, the charts are not showing up for whatever reason. No words. or not showing up for whatever reason. In other words, so what happens, I mean, I've got M and R a vaccine, you feel like you're hit by a truck, right? Two days later, you got the vaccine in some physician say, well, that's your immune system acting or reacting. [6:02] So there is 10 symptoms that the CDC was identified, Center for Disease Control, that are adverse events due to vaccines. They're actually UCSD has 25 symptoms. So the idea was to look at whether a garicone on turkey tail reduced the adverse effects of vaccines. And how would they do that? Well, they measure, they ask you, would you get a headache? Right, but I mean, how would the mushrooms reduce the... Well, this is very good question. We had to convince the FDA that these were safe. And so because we had sold hundreds of thousands of a gyrocon and turkey tail with no adverse offense, we were able to prove that. So it went through, they called the institution of review boards and the FDA for approval. And they approved it. Now, the biggest concern they had was if you stimulate the immune system, which is the presumption of how these mushrooms work, you could create a cytokine storm. And so this is one of the charts though. This was written up in JAMA. [7:01] And the concern was a cytokine storm, opposed to the greatest risk, not the virus itself. And so when people took a garricon, day one is where the vaccination occurred with a Moderna Pfizer mRNA. And then if you look at the black line, that's the placebo, which is just the rice. And the FOTV is phomyatomsis, fissionally, is a vermicicolor, that's a garricon, a turkey just the rice. And the FOTV is phomyatoms of official and all those communities, versus the color of the cigarette content turkey tail combined. And you'll see that a day two and day three on the scale there, there's almost no adverse effects. And whereas those people who did not take a cigarette content turkey tail had a massive increase in adverse symptoms. Now, article just came out this past year, 30% of the people avoid vaccinations because they fear of the adverse effects. Because they hear people miss school, miss work, they feel terrible, they go, I don't wanna get a vaccine. Not just that, the really scary ones, like myocarditis, paracarditis, heart attack, strokes, [8:01] all the clots. So the reason why the FDA approved this, we have even the argument, is we found that these, not too much, stimulated what's called anti-inflammatory cytokines, interleukin 1RA and interleukin 10. Now most of the, when you have an immune response, many of these interleukins as part of your natural immunity, but they can cascade, and they can then unthrottle, create a cytokine storm. So most people then die from an over stimulation of the immune system, inflammatory reaction. We found that with a garricon and turkey tail, we were able to reduce the adverse effects, which are inflammatory effects. Headache, sore throat, insomnia, muscle ache, soreness, malaise, et cetera. Insomnia is also included. So this was a big surprise. It was double-onply sea of I had no access to any of the data until it was unmasked, which is normal. So we found that. And then something else very, very surprising occurred. [9:03] And it's too credits of my colleagues. they came up with this idea at the University of California, the Crupps Center for Integrative Medicine, is let's look at antibody extension. The idea with the vaccines that you create an antibody is to prevent the spike protein from docking on your cells and getting interest in infecting your cells. So they looked at people six months later. Now 89 out of 90 people, I think, came back six months later. Tremendous conformity. Let's take your blood six months later. And then Jamie, if you can put up the next slide, and this is what we found that was so astonishing. Is six months later, with the short exposure to a garic on a turkey tail, there was a carry on where the antibody response was far greater than that of the reservoir of antibodies just from the vaccine. Are these people that actually contracted COVID as well? [10:01] These are a quote we call naive. We want them, we didn't, when you get COVID, then the antibody response is very cloudy, and then you have antibody response from your natural immune system, then you have the vaccine itself. So these are called the vaccine naive group. I mean, the virus in the naive group, we did not want them to have the virus. So we trapped them to make sure that they did not get the virus, but this will be LVQ into a state of immune readiness. And this is the thing I did not know. I did not know if you're immunologically depressed, you have immunological lower activity due to whatever reason. If you get a vaccine, your antibody response is not that great. Your immune cell levels are very low. They're very not that great. Your immune cell levels are very low. They're very not not very active. What's exciting about this, the immunologist, is that if you can upregulate immunity and then get the vaccine, your immune cell population is much more robust, much more responsive, and so the antibody response is much greater. And this is what we found. The fact [11:04] that extended out six months, we didn't go out a year, we didn't go out longer. And this is just for a short dosing? Short dosing of only four days. And this was the dosing that happened right after the vaccine. Right simultaneously in the same day, the vaccine for four days. Now this is one of my favorite phrases by Volterra who don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You can twist yourselves into pretzels if they've died to explain how this works. But the bottom line, it does work. And if you could up-regulate community immunity of the population, the problem that I did not realize is immunologically depressed people, when they get a vaccine, their anorbit body response is not only poor, but they become a breeding ground for vaccine resistance. So you have a lot more virus replicating. You want to stop the viral replication early on in the process. So the more antibody response and more robust your response is specific to this virus and other viruses. And this is what we're really wondering. [12:04] Now, wow, how does this carry over to other viruses? Can I start me? How does it work? What's the mechanism that's causing this to happen? We think there is an entourage effect of multiple mechanisms that are in play. We know that increases cell immunity, so daughter cells, when they're created, don't pass on the virus. We may be able to show that, which is extraordinary. But it speaks to host-defense of immunity. The immune cells, the immune cells are enabled, your endogenous immune system is able to prevent the virus from replicating. And that's what's so exciting. We know that the anti-inflammatory affects. So, we have this, as one person said, you're putting on the gas pedal and you put on the brakes at the same time. You can augment immunity and decrease inflammation. Now that's what these vaccine companies are spending billions of dollars. Let's create a vaccine without any adverse effects. The fact you can take a natural product that's been used for thousands of years. [13:00] Dyschroidities is one of the fathers of medicine. The fact that it's been used for so long, we know it's safe. And now in this time, we are finding we have 100 plus strains of a garicone. So I think we have a super strain in my library. And that's what I'm trying to discover. What strain in our library of 107 strains now? We just used one strain and we saw these effects. So if we can boost community immunity, then we can emulinate the spread of pandemics, obviously. And when you're saying there's all these different strains, there's 107 strains? We have 107 strains in our library, the largest library in the world. There are probably hundreds of thousands of strains if there are hundreds of thousands of strains if there are hundreds of thousands of mushrooms or millions of mushrooms, but there aren't. This species is rapidly on the brink of becoming extremely threatened if not extinct. Can it be repopulated? We can culture it in a laboratory. All we need is a tiny piece [14:02] of tissue. We can't reintroduce it into forests. We have not related from snags, which have been unsuccessful. The idea would be we'd like to reintroduce it into forests, or we can, these forests are like islands, genomic libraries of islands that we need to protect. And this is why I made this statement, my TED talk, we just saved the old growth forests as a matter of national defense. That's not quite correct. It's for international defense. You know, viruses don't care about borders. And we've been in, Joe, we've entered into a period of viral storms. We're gonna have viral storms converging at us all the time now. And as due to factory farming, the collision of industrialization, suburbanization, ecosystems on those margins, what we're facing now, this currently in the news, is bird flu. Six different herds of cattle have been infected with bird flu. First time in history, first time in history, is jumped from birds to large mammals cattle. [15:02] From Idaho, and it's now got scientists on high alert. This is from nature. This is bird flu outbreak in US cows, why scientists are concerned, the virus has killed hundreds of millions of birds, has now infected cattle in six US states, but the threat to humans is currently low. Currently low, because if it jumps to pigs, we already know that viruses that, in fact, pigs can infect very likely humans. So cows and pigs are oftentimes in the same farms. If it jumps to pigs in the room, we're in big trouble. Because that's just one species away, historically, and virology swine viruses H1N1 is swine flu we found high activity with at the Baushield program of a garrickan also against H1N1 and H5N1 is it possible to give this the cows? I don't know Hmm don't know So my concern in those of other that of viologos that I've been in contact with for literally [16:05] decades now is it strains at six herds of cattle from Idaho to Oklahoma to Texas would spontaneously get bird flu, it's not like the cattle made contact with each other. So there's more than one epicenter. When you have these epizooic, zoonotic centers where the virus can jump to larger mammals, then you have many, many ground zeroes for the virus to emerge. So if it jumps to swines or to pigs or hogs, the increased likelihood of it jumps to people. So it's a very big concern with Wuhan. OK, it came out of one city, one location. But this is showing epidemiologically that the virus is jumping to larger mammals simultaneously. [17:01] Right now it doesn't have the mutation. So there's very low risk. Let's be very clear about that. There's very low risk, but virologists are an extremely high alert because of this unusual pattern of sudden occurrence, first time ever. It's jumped to seals and bears, all things, and it's devastated hundreds of millions of birds around the world. Do they have any idea what it's so they they originated with birds? Yes, it's called bird flu And do they think that it's just birds traveling to these different herds? Generally speaking that's the that's the modality that most But they just fly around give it to me If I they go to a con and you know their co-comming the virus and drinking water, you know coaming the virus and drinking water, you know, egrids sit on top of cows and get bugs off the backs of large mammals, etc. So migratory birds, of course, is the most obvious vector. But when you have factory farming of chickens and hundreds of thousands of chickens this past year, I think [18:00] hundreds of millions of chickens, if you look it up, have been euthanized in the past year because they did get H5N1. And so the chickens start sneezing and they get sick. It's extremely communicable. So it's spread throughout the chicken farms very quickly. So the USDA NIH, everyone involved in biosecurity is extremely concerned about this new event, which has just happened in the past few weeks. And that report I showed you just showed up yesterday in nature as well. So if it mutates, it's a whole new pandemic threat, and it's much more severe. The estimates from humans getting bird flu, H5N1 is up to 70% mortality, 70% not 0.1% or 0.01% with COVID is 70%. Now some people say 40% okay you reduce it by 30%. We do have vaccines already in the pipeline that are anticipating this so [19:03] that's a good news. The flu virus, virus, uh, uh, viral, as it's called, has been very well characterized. Um, but the mutation rate is what's of concerned. And there's sensitive so many different localities that are spontaneously infecting cows. This virus is on the move. And that is the concern that we all have. And so by boosting community immunity, we can then have more immune cells to produce antibodies that make the vaccines more effective. And the idea is you can help avoid vaccine evasion by having your endogenous immune system at its peak performance. So how does this stuff work without vaccines? Now, how does this have this tough work without vaccines? We have early evidence on how works without vaccines. And I want to be very respectful, but I also have to be very professional. [20:01] I am not at liberty to discuss those results for a number of reasons, one of which the data, as I mentioned, is a little clouded because the people that we were bringing in to the first study, we didn't have them as well characterized. But clearly, a garic on our turquetry tale, where the evidence that was presented, again, September 23rd, 2023, at the Georgetown University School of Medicine, these two charts I can present to you because they were publicly presented. We do have a paper and process that's being submitted to a journal and has to go through the acid test, a peer review, et cetera, but there's a team of us and we're very excited about this resource results because it's not gonna, I'm hoping it's not gonna be the vaccine or the month scene where you just are constantly creating new vaccines for every variant. If you can have your endogenous immune system, you know, on the ready, then it can then have an innate response to these viral infections that will ameliorate their spread. And that's the [21:02] whole idea is to keep the viral loads down as low as possible. And so what is the mechanism that these two together helps strengthen your immune system? Well, that's a really good question. We know that with a turkey tail, we did a breast cancer clinical study phase one. That was also published with breast cancer patients. So we see augmentation of many immune cells, including cytotoxic T cells, macrophages, and natural killer cells, statistically significant. It also was a phase one study. And for people to know, phase one studies are pretty small. There tend to be safety studies. You know, there are usually a few dozen people. Sometimes as a few or six, our study would have 90 people, the COVID study, the breast cancer clinical study, I think had about 28 people, but also compared to the SIBO, the mycelium grown on rice, this is so important, it's not the fruit bodies, it's the mycelium that has this effect of being able to upregulate immunity and downregulate inflammation. [22:02] So with the breast cancer clinical study, it was shown to be safe. It was shown to augment several of the immune cell responses. By how much? Well, there's two ways of three ways of answering that. There's the amplitude of the immune cells, which is I think as I remember six times baseline, there is different immune cells in terms of their activity and how they increase. But the significant value, which is the P values people know it, was I think less than 0.01. It showed highly significant effects, which are outside of the realm of chance. And so we were able to show immune regulation, effects which are outside of the realm of chance. And so we were able to show immune regulation. The breast cancer clinical study did not measure anti-inflammatory cytokines. And so again, we have this incredibly complex immune system that's developed over hundreds of millions of years. [23:02] And it's not this magical bullet approach that many people enter in the grade of medicine are focused on, it's not this magical bullet approach that many people enter in the creative medicine are focused on, it's the entourage effect. And so when you create a entourage of enabling stimuli that has the immune system react, a lot of us believe there's cross-talk between the receptors. The receptors is saying, okay, this is helpful, awakens other receptors, and then you get this so quorum response of the immune system at a higher state of readiness, without being detrimental to the body that's created the immune system. So the cytokine storm and overreaction of inflammatory responses is a huge concern with any immunostemulant. So that's why in Jamont, we letter it was written up, the concern about the cytokine storm. I co-authored an article with the University of Arizona School of Medicine Physicians, also warning people to be very careful about immunostimulation even with the [24:01] medicine of mushrooms. But we had this evidence already that the mushroom mycelium throttled back of the inflammatory consequences by upregulating interleukin 1RA and interleukin 10. And a mushroom references.com, you can see all these references right on the front of the website. differences right on the front of the website. So all this stuff has been used forever, right? It's been used for thousands of years. And what do we know about what they used for or how they found out that it worked or anything like that? That's a really great question actually. It was used as an anti-inflammatory as a poultice to reduce muscle aches. And would they just use the fruiting bodies? The fruiting bodies we powdered and the fruiting bodies are not the... The fruiting bodies may have anti-inflammatory actions, but we found that mycelium increases the host defense, it supports immunity, your innate immunity. [25:03] So this is why it's been used for a thousand years as a poultice and ointments, etc. And so it has a long, you know, back in the day before we could eloquue the different aspects of what's happening medically in the human body. There's sort of like this very broad umbrella that we're describing, you know, getting into home, you know, stasis. This is terrible. Just take this with food without food. Either way, it doesn't matter. I take them in the morning. I feel like I'm just beating them. Why am I sitting here? Just tell me all these things. I'm getting scared. Don't be scared. I mean, this is not a time for widespread panic, but it is time to be, well, I mean, the analogy I make, we all buy car insurance, right? And the unlikely hood that we're gonna get on car accident today or tomorrow. So why not, pretty emptively, invest in your own immunological health by being prepared. So should you get exposed, you don't become a super sprudder. [26:02] Right. And so this is where I think we have a potential breakthrough in integrative medicine. And I want to give a shout out to my colleagues at the University of California San Diego, the Crop Institute, they're the ones that came up with this idea of vaccine extension, because so many people are concerned about how many vaccines do I take and what happens when you take so many vaccines. So the idea of having your innate immune system at a state of readiness, so vaccines work better and you have to use them less. I mean that's the holy grail of vaccinology. And what is it, but that's back to my original question. What does it do for people that don't want to take vaccines? What can it help their immune system fight off things? We know, and I've got to be very careful how I say this, but we know that these, the mycelium-based products of the garicons and turkey tail support the immune system. This is clear. [27:02] Now, the immune system has many challenges from bacterial infections, viral infections, cancer, you know, just cells getting old and dying, not having apoptosis. Apoptosis is important for you to get rid of your disease and aging and dead cells. So it's a very, very broad landscape. So I'm not trying to be, I'm not dancing around the definitions, but I am very much restricted on what I'm able to say. I understand what you're saying. Yeah. I can say that these, a garic on a turkey tail supports the immune system. We have very good evidence for that. I can say that in combination, based on the earlier evidence and we need more studies, but this is a placebo double-blind controlled study, we can show that we reduced the adverse effects of the mRNA vaccines with this population that we studied of 90 people, those who did not take egg-arachonoturky-tail-hat adverse consequences significantly less than those people who took a gyroconotrarchy [28:05] to not have adverse. So it helps people not avoid vaccines because of their vaccine hesitancy. I have a dear friend and their family's very conservative Christians and they just refuse to get vaccinations. They isolated themselves. And at first I was on the left side of the fence being, wait a second, why aren't you getting vaccines? I've come to understand why they didn't want vaccines. I totally respect their opinion and what they did. But they're very interested in many people are and not needing a vaccine. How can I have built innate immunity? When it comes to the pandemic storms, the viral pandemics that we face, we are an unprecedented times. What happens when we get multiple viral variants, not only from flu viruses, but loss about diversity, because of fact reforming it spreads so rapidly. [29:10] We are at the convergence of possibly multiple virus and viral pandemics converging at the same time. That is not improbable at all. So it's really we need to get our act together and everyone needs to work together and what we think that we have in many other physicians who are knowledgeable about the subject who have studied this very carefully, who have looked at the data or excited about it because it can help innate immunity. So whether you get a vaccine or don't get a vaccine, your immune system is supported at a higher level of readiness. So when you started doing this, and you said there's 107 strains you guys have identified and isolated, what are the differences in those strains? Is there some more potent than others [30:02] or some have different effects? Excellent question. With a bio-shield program, I think I submitted six strains of a gyrocon. Only three showed any activity in the bio-shield program. So three showed nothing? Three showed nothing. Two of them were active against flu viruses, and now one of them was active against pox viruses. Now, that's weird because pox viruses are DNA viruses, flu viruses are RNA viruses and so you think the modality would be different but it just speaks to the fact how little we know I met a Nobel laureate in San Diego who got the Nobel Prize in immunology and I'm not going to mention his name but but he gave a great quote. He goes, I can't believe I got the Nobel Prize because I know shit about the immune system. And he says, Nobel, where are you? He just said, it's so incredibly complex. Every time we think we understand it, that we're challenged with new ideas, [31:01] our counter-agre or assumptions. So it's really important to keep an open mind. The beauty of a garic on a turkey tail is a multi-thousand year history of use. Traditional Chinese medicine has been advocating this for literally 2000 years. Long history in Europe, long history in North America with indigenous first nations. So this is, I mean, I think, so let me really put this in the context. Alexander Fleming, most people know this story, 1929, he got a mold and his petri dish was growing, staffed bacteria. And there was a zone of inhibition. The bacteria stopped growing. So he looked at that margin of no growth and he thought, well, that mold is excreting something. It turned out to be penicillin. So he published that, and there's a massive number of researchers all over the world, especially in London and Europe. So it's isolating molds to see if they could find a highly potent strain that produced penicillin. [32:00] So, but they couldn't industrialize it. And in the Netherlands and the Imperial College, there's a lot of work, but they couldn't scale up the production of penicillin doing World War II until a lab researcher by the name of Mary Hunt working in Peoria, Illinois at a USDA laboratory went to a farmer's market and found a moldy cantaloupe. The moldy cantaloupe was covered with a golden mold. And so, Alex Interflaming discovered penicillium notatum. She discovered that penicillium chrysogenum, chrysogenum means the gold color. And then she isolated that mold and it turned out to produce six times more penicillium, at least, of any other strain here to be discovered. And the advantage that we had in the United States is that we had corn steep liquor. We grow corn. And a corn, you take corn cobs, you boil them in water, you can make corn steep liquor, and that turned out to be a perfect medium for the massive production of penicillin. [33:01] The Germans, they had a factory with making penicillin, it got bombed, so they were kicked out of the race. The Japanese, they were developed it. Penicillin literally saved hundreds of millions of dollars because of Mary Hunt's cantaloupe. You mean lives? Yeah, but that's a million times. Sorry, I'm just spoke. No worries. Hundreds of millions of lives because of her mortic cantaloupe. That's wild. And just I think a garralcon with 107 strands, when we start sequencing them, we see, doesn't hold genomic sequencing on 95 strains so far. Hold genomic sequencing, so with the entire genomic fingerprint. And to go back to your question, we have found four or so different clades. These are its little subgenera, subgenomic associations, lineages, you might call them. And in those lineages, we are just beginning to see early signal of what lineages have greater potency as an anti-inflammatory and also for supporting the immune system. [34:01] So this is my biggest contribution to science. I hope historically will be because of this library and I've literally spent millions of dollars. I'm not exaggerating. Millions of dollars on a GeraCon to a mass of 107 strains and we're accumulating more. We've got published in the comments in the large genomic library databases. So other people can see this. And so you said there's four strains that you identified that were particularly. Yeah, that was, it was a bio-shield program. And so, So out of the 107, how many of them are viable? Well, we didn't have 107 back then. I only had six or seven strains back then at the bio-al Program in 2004. So in 2024 now we have 107. We only had one choice for the COVID-19 clinical study. So I chose the strain of a garicon [35:00] that was the most robust that we saw on our early individual tests with the with a bio-shield program. And out of these 107 strains you have currently? Yes. How many of them have you tested? Well, in terms of how many have we tested for immune support? Yeah, for everything. Clinic clinically? Only one. Only one. In vitro, I think seven or or eight some of them are not active We are currently involved with another university Who is now testing multiple strains in vitro and we have new signal now and um I want to show you how big these agaracons get so Jimmy before we go any further when when you I want to show you how big these agaracons get. So, Jamie, before we go any further, when you identify ones that aren't active, do you bookmark them and see if you can try them for other things that could be beneficial to the human body? Or do you just only look at the immune system and do you always assume that they only have one mechanism? [36:03] Um, we... I'm going to answer that question, I'm a very small company. I have 150 employees, you know, I'm on the whole company. I have eight or nine full-time researchers. There are so many applications, potentially, of this. We have to be very narrowly focused on that, which we can achieve. If I was a part of NIH, and I've made NIH applications, one out of eight, it's made it through, but it's very, very difficult for an independent researcher like me to advance the science without collaboration with larger entities. So mostly, you know, questions. It seems like if we're finding these benefits in these mushrooms, it seems like it's to anybody, to everyone's benefit, if there was some large-scale funding of some research on this. Because if you bookmark these ones that don't have efficacy towards a specific goal that you have, is it possible that we would be missing out on some of the other additional benefits [37:02] of these mushrooms that we're not aware of in these different strains? As an immunologist, our team said, because inflammation is such that the root cause of so many illnesses, the fact that you can upregulate immunity and downregulate inflammation as implications across the medical field. Right, but they don't all show disability, correct? That's correct. And the ones that don't show disability, what I'm saying is, is it possible that they have other effects, beneficial effects that we're not measuring because we're only looking for this? Absolutely, of antifungal effects. The weird thing about a garicon from my experience is the only mushroom that grows on an old growth tree. All these other trees I find, I find four or five, maybe ten different species, but when I find a garicon, you know, this is an example. This is my good friend Scott Baker. He climbed a hundred feet up to this a garicon. We got a tiny piece of tissue, the size of your fingernail from the bottom of that. And we got that in culture. Four or five years later, a storm came through, broke off that tree. [38:04] That a garicon now is not there so we saved it we've saved it from fires a garicon we've saved from logging I've actually had some longer buddies of mine who know about this this is the biggest one we've ever seen and this one is over a hundred pounds, over a hundred years of age. And it is, it looks like cement. Oh, those are annual growth rings. Wow. Basically, they're annual growth rings. I have to say, this is, this is Mike on the guy, he's known as Yosemite Sam. And I do have permission to show this. So thanks. Yosemite Sam. But this have permission to show this so I think so. Yosemite Sam. But this guy, I mean that is a massive a garicon, the biggest one I've ever seen. So think about the, the equivalent of the old growth forest, subject to vast weather changes, wind and rain and snow and they live for a hundred years and they don't rot. [39:02] What is about this fungus that allows it not to rot? So it seems to have a host of fence of protection innately. And since we're more closely related to fungi than any other kingdom, and the antibacterial antibiotics that we've gotten, mostly have come from fungi, but we've very few antifungal antibiotics. And so, research is also showing that these, a garicone and other polypore mushrooms, are active against pathogenic fungi. So it's an interesting nexus point that a garicone is in the center of antiviral, antibacterial, and antifungal, and yet has such a long history of use and safety. So we're really at the threshold. This is where science can get ahead of itself and be so reductionist, but we are whole systems of enormous complexity and science tries to de-complexify [40:00] and disambiguate things. So it's very narrowly focused, so they have a stimulus response they can measure. That's not way the human immune system works. It's a entourage effect, a synergy, and keeping that in balance is the key. Now, there's between two and 20 million species of fungi, about 10% about 140,000 species to 200,000 species or so, our mushroom farm in fungi. We've only identified 14,000. But it's another really curious phenomenon. But 1% of mushrooms are poisonous. About 1% of them are edible in choice. About 1% of them are psychoactive, are psilocybin presence. The other 97%, they're just, you know, they just don't taste good, they're not poisonous, they're not of interest. But what do you think is going on with the amineetimuscaria? The amineetimuscaria is one where there's this historic use, there's all this mythology that's connected to Santa Claus, [41:07] shamans and elves and all these different things, but most of the people that I know that have tried it have not been able to experience extreme psychoactive effects. I have consumed amity of miscarrier and aminid pantherina on multiple occasions. And my aminida miscaria, but higher doses, it's a some nephorus. I can put you to sleep. I get dull, yellows and browns. It's not a euphoric experience. What do you mean? Dog yellows and browns? Dark colors are not bright. It's not like you're flying saucer in the background here. What dog yellows and browns? What do you mean? Dark colors are not bright. It's not like you're flying saucer in the background here. Everything is very, very diminished in terms of the colorama. It tends to be muted colors, reds and browns, but not blues and fractals. So you're talking about what you see that is hallucination. [42:04] Are you talking about actual colors that you see that is hallucination, are you talking about like actual colors that you see look differently? Actually colors that I look at are different. So it changes the visual spectrum? It changes the visual spectrum. Now I am going to pantherena. See, anory Muscarri has muscarin and ebutinic acid. Actually, I have very little muscarin, but the muscarin exemptions caused you to salivate. And as you send up salivating and tearing and lactating, et cetera. So these shamans in Siberia by consuming eminent mascaria, they would remove the muskroning symptoms. And then the urine, because they biotholdered through a body, it would be hide ebuttonic acid and and mucymal and these are the they can sense purifies it. So I mean this is a legend that's mixed up in fiction and fact and fables. I will say in the field of [43:01] myology from my experience now over 47 years studying this subject, many of the folklore has been validated only lately by science. So before people are super skeptic and think this has no relationship, well, with the Santa Claus myth, hmm, okay, the Amdena, the Muscarian, and the trees, the fur trees, the fur trees are Christmas trees. There's the berserkers. And legend is that the berserkers have surrounded, you know, 10 to 1 by a very powerful army. These Norwegian Scandinavians were going to be slaughtered the next day. They made a giant pot of ammunition, a Muscaria, you know, a brew. They drank it. And then at dawn, high as a kite on the enemy Muscaria, they took off all their clothes and they just became these mechanistic warriors that attacked the other side, freaked them out and they won the battle. So that was how the word Berserk came about, from the Berserkers, they went Berserk. [44:01] And so that's the origin of that. And it is Amidimuscaria that we're assuming you took? Amidimuscaria, but Amidimuscaria, Piantherina does not have muscarin in it. So I ate Amidimuscaria several times, and I was with my friend, and I looked at him, and he was foaming with bubbles all over on his mouth. That's a dude, you look like you have rabies. He goes, you should see what you look like. You know, so we're both like. And so, and it puts you to sleep the biggest concern about immunomuscaria is hypothermia by most of us experts because you can actually fall asleep in the snow and then you can get hypothermia and die. Very people, a few people, if any, have ever died. There's one potential report. It has killed dogs, but there's a repetitive motion syndrome. It's very, very strange. And I ate eminida pantherina as well, and I don't think I told you this story about my pantherina experience. I don't want to be redundant here, but I had a heroic experience on the eminida pantherina. [45:03] And that one was very I had repetitive motion syndrome and I was living up in the mountains. I had freeze-dried amnita pantherina. I knew it didn't have muskron, I eaten muskaryo, I foamed a lot, it wasn't that much fun. So I knew pantherina was four to five times more potent. So, I took the freeze-dried specimens from the herbarium, from the college I was working at. I was living underneath a volcano up in Darrington, Washington, and I was with my friend Dave, and he had his smaller body weight, and so we made an omelet. And this is a tri-pantherinum, and he trusted me, note to self, note to others. And so we ate the pantherinum in an omelet, and I cut the omelet bigger for me, because I'm bigger body weight than him. And we ate the mushrooms like at 10 o'clock in the morning, and an omelet, they're delicious. [46:02] And dressed across the river was a square creek campground and It's where the tourists come up and their winnow bagos and you know campers and their families and stuff and we're long-haired hippies and I said, you know just on the other side there. It's a hill that we can get up on the hillside is an incredible view of the valley The snow cap volcano just a great vista. Let's go there So we for some reason is so close, but we drove my car like the snow cap volcano, just a great vista. Let's go there. So for some reason, it's so close, but we drove my car, like a thousand feet to this campground, went over the bridge over the little river, and we parked, you know, just on the outside of the campground, right, where all the campers are. And so we walked past, you know, all these tourist and their families, and we went up on the hill, and then we're sitting up on the hill and Waiting for the mushrooms to come on and like an hour nothing no experience like you know What's going on and this is very typical by the way? This is a characteristic eminent mascara and pantherino take a long time before the onset of first symptoms And then we're up on the hill and I'm looking out the her right beautiful view and suddenly [47:11] What was that? This sort of this wave came through our visual field like this invisible wave. I don't know, he said, do you feel that? And he goes, yeah, I felt that too. And like, whoa, we're feeling the same thing. And then, and so our visual feel, sorry, getting distorted and they start coming on so fast, we're going, holy shit, we gotta get out of here. You know, with this is coming on too fast, let's go back home and be good cause it's more intense. So we walked back through and I have a Rollie Flex camera, I'm about 35 millimeter, I've been a photographer all my life. And they were walking through the backside of the campground and just all these kids and families and winnowbeggos and camper vans. And then I remember this one winnowbeggo is the longest winnowbeggo in the universe. [48:02] Every time I was walking, kup, kup, kup, kup. It was a winnow bagel of no end. I couldn't get past this one winnow bagel. I kept on walking, kup, kup, kup. My friend, and then finally, we got past this winnow bagel. It seemed like it took forever, and there's my car. And for some friggin' reason, I locked the door. And I have my keys. And I looked at the key, hold the door, and I looked at my keys, I want... Missed that one. Didn't again. Missed that one. Just a... Me and my friend goes, Everything okay, Paul? Everything's fine. Just give me some time. And then, you know, after, I don't know how many times, magically, just by the fact that I tried so many times, I think it just slipped into the lock and unlocked the door. I'm sorry, okay, so I sit in the car and now I have to put it in the ignition. [49:02] And I'm going, boom, oh no, boom. My friend goes, maybe you shouldn't drive. Yeah. Good advice. Maybe I shouldn't drive. So it's just no way. I couldn't, I was getting more and more intense. It would not be responsible to drive. So absolutely the right decision, not to drive. So then I got out of the car and the camera was on my lap and then I got out of my car and you know meanwhile a group of people started gathering because we were there for a long time trying to get into the car and then trying to and so these people got kind of curious and Dave goes you know some people over there are kind of gathering Paul looking at us and I don't want to look at them and so I get out of the car and my camera falls and it hits the ground. I go oh shit. I just dropped my really flex camera and then I picked up the camera and I go wow. I just dropped my really flex camera. I drop it again [50:03] and I pick it up. I go, did I just drop my camera? Drop it again. Repetitive motion syndrome. I picked up that camera and dropped it dozens and dozens of times. Oh my God. Meanwhile the cluster of people got larger. Parents were holding their children close to them saying, we don't know what's going on here but it's getting weird over there. So pretty soon, I had a very large group of these campers that were all watching us, going to keep keeping their distance. And I had this repetitive motion syndrome of dropping and dropping and dropping. And so finally, we had the staccato pace. The timeline of the day got broken up. So morning, when we ate, then I had evening, then I had early afternoon, then I had early morning, then I had late afternoon, then I had evening, the whole threat of time was disintegrated, like, and scrambled. And so then we walked, and I lost Dave. You know, Dave, I figured, Dave, you're on your own, buddy, and I got enough to work, you know, [51:02] deal with here. And so we walked over, and we walked over this bridge and we got to my place and I got to my house and I had a combination lock on the door. I was like, oh my God. Last thing I need is another, so I spun that combination lock and I couldn't get it open and then I went into convulsions and they felt good. So I'm convulsing on the ground, spiking like this, and every time I convulsed, right afterwards, it actually felt good. And so like, you know, I'm convulsing, but it seems to be helping me. So I convulsed and you know, thrashing on the ground. Don't know where it happened the day. And so I go back to the lock and I spun it, and it's magically the lock opened up, and then I fell into bed. And then I had this amazing rush of I'm stining, I'm stining thoughts. The thoughts were just so profound. I go, oh my gosh, if I could write these down, these are just like so important, you know, conclusions of great mysteries of the universe. I have this at my hand and just before I came to the object of the sentence, [52:06] I would have a prepossessional or adverbial phrase and then I'd get a tangent. Oh no. And I saw death then has been perpetual tangents that never gave you the satisfaction of having a complete of thought. So I went down this rabbit hole of constantly forks in my thinking and then I blacked out and then at the end of the day, the sunlight came through, the 12-hour experience, this is the long experience. And so, there's no summertime, then at the very end of the day, the sunlight came through and flickered to my eyelids. And I woke up. And my friend was convinced I was trying to kill him because I was a mushroom expert. So I had no idea this was going to be this intense. Where was he during this time? He ended up in the cabin and safe, but he was like a statue, you know, who's just there sitting when I got up, just looking straight forward. [53:08] And we spoke a few words the next day and for the next few days and then, you know, Dave went on. His life journey, I think he's convinced to this day that I knew what would happen, but this speaks to the berserkers, the idea of repetitive motion syndrome. Andy Wile, who you've had on this show, he was at Cougar Hot Springs, and he was going to the trail to Cougar Hot Springs, and somebody ran on the trail, said, when you're a doctor, we're a doctor. This person up there is trying to kill himself, and Andy's a doctor, so he goes up there, and there's this big hippie guy on this log or on the bridge, swinging his legs wildly, covered with blood. And before Andy's eyes, this guy throws himself off the bridge. It right onto the rocks and they're creaked down below, ten feet or more below. Smashes himself and gets stunned and looks around [54:01] and walks back up and gets on the bridge again and throws himself on the bridge again and throws them up on the bridge. So this is why if someone had killed somebody on Indian mascara or pantherino, I would testify as an expert witness that they're out of control. They have no control of their repetitive motion syndrome. If you read a watch, tails from the crypt or some witness something violent, because when you re-remember you re-enact there's no control of your memory interaction. The pharmacologically that must be really interesting, you know. The real scientists have been studying this for a long time. We can't quite figure it out. But I think this underscores the point that mushrooms are chemical wizards. These are, they have enormous potential for exotic molecules that interface with human health. And there's a huge pharma-capia, micropharma-capia inside of mushrooms that have not been fully explored. I think it's true with a garicon. I think it's true with a soul-sibin mushrooms. [55:02] Certainly true with amdina-mascaria, et cetera. So ironically, amdina miscaria, et cetera. So ironically, amdina miscaria is legal. There's no restrictions. You can possess a hundred pounds of it, but you can't possess a tenth of a gram of psilocybin mushrooms without breaking federal law schedule one. So how can a mushroom that makes you happier, less violent, you know, resolve your PTSD, depression, et cetera. How could that mushroom remain illegal? And yet, Emily and Ms. Carina and Pam Thorena are legal. So it's just the juxtaposition. But for the record, no species should be illegal. It's the hubris of humans to think that we can dictate that a species is illegal. That is fundamentally wrong. is the hubris of humans to think that we can dictate that a species is illegal. That is fundamentally wrong. Agreed. My question was about the amity to miscarrier. Because you're talking about a garicon and how many different strains there are and how different strains are effective at different things, one of the things that McKenna believed was that, [56:01] because he had never really had a positive experience with the amity to miscarrier, but there was so much attached to it. He thinks that it was probably variable genetically, seasonally, so much like a garicon, there's probably many different strains of Amonita. So these ones that they were tripping to the Sacred Mushroom in the Cross, John Marco Legros book on Amonita, Muscaria, and the Bible. Do you think that it's possible that at one point in time there was psychoactive strains of Aminita, Muscaria that vary from the ones that people have that have these different sort of more mundane effects? Absolutely. We call them phenotypes. You can call them strains for phenotypes. It's a variety within a species. But pharmacologically we already see that with the salosomy mushrooms. Some of them are really high in sulcibe and very low in sulcibe. High in biocystin, noribus system, norcilystin, lower. So we see this not only cross species-wise, [57:01] but inside of a species with the phenotypes. Some phenotypes of salos-be-cabence, as they're extremely potent, and other ones are not. So, strains do matter. And this is where with the gyrocon, I think, strains do matter. The fact that we found one strain of a gyrocon that supports immunity and looks like it helps extend the efficacy of vaccines is a home run. You know, what are the other strains capable of doing? Right, that's what I was getting at. It's like, God, we seem so underfunded with something that has so much potential. I'm funding it, you know. I'm glad you are. So I spend the enormous amounts of my financial resources on research. That's why I created my company, you know, it started my company packing boxes by myself. You know, I'm not ashamed to admit that I laid in bed crying many, many nights. I was bouncing checks. My suppliers were shutting me down. No one was there to help me. I was by myself. I packed 30,000 boxes before I had a single employee. I got accepted the five graduate schools [58:06] and I couldn't afford to go. They didn't have a scholarship. I had a young family. My daughter, I would very adept at catching my daughter from the her backpack as I leaned over to pack a box. Cellophane tape will not stick at 35 degrees. I can tell you that. And I actually, I don't want to flood the airways. But if you call us 360 426 8255, you'll get the public utility district. Why I know that number and grand? My lawyer said, if you call the utility company and telling me you're sending a check, they legally cannot shut off your power. So I thought, okay, for 10 years at 801 in the morning on the date of disconnection, I would call the public utility district as I am sending in a check. And after a while, I heard this noise and then many years later, I met some of the people and said, you know, you're a legend. I go, what do you mean? [59:02] He says, we all gathered around the phone at 801. On this connection day, betting that Stammer's would or not would not call. And everybody who bet that I would not call lost their bets and at the end, everyone was just cheer. It's Paul and I think they're having a party in the background. No, it's Paul calling it 801. That's hilarious. I maximize my cash flow. Wow. And thankfully I had a local bank. And the local bank, one of the board members said, how much money do you pay in overdraft fees? And there's the extraordinary number of $5,000. And he goes, you're one of your best customers, man. They should keep them. So I built this business blood sweat and tears. Now I have 150 employees, I own the whole company. I'm very grateful to them. We call it a Starship FP. That's like your comedy clubs, the mothership, right? So our company is known as Starship Funji Perfecti. And people wanna track us down where at funji.com, [1:00:01] FUNGI.com. I registered that myself for 28 bucks. Nice. Where did you get that myself for 28 bucks. Nice. Why did you get that, were you here? 1992. Oh yeah, you were early. That works literally. Yeah, you had to be super early to get that. It's funny people that were more radical. It's a kingdom, you know, I've read it down, it's funji.com. So. That's amazing that you got stuff. I've had your stuff at my house for a long time. I think it's great and I'm so happy that you're out there. I really am. I'm happy that there's not a lot of Paul Stammits in the world. There are a lot of unsung heroes. I have a lot of attention. But my point is that it's like we really need research in this stuff. We need a lot of research and the research is becoming increasingly credible. It's at the University of Arizona Medical School, Andy Wiles Center, a program for Interrogate of Medicine, University of California, San Diego, UCLA. Harvard actually, another institution's. They're very excited now because this has been sort of like weird science, you know? [1:01:00] Yeah, that's what I was going to get on. I was going to say that there's this real reluctance to believe that people in the past had answers That we don't have today. This is this this Almost religious belief in modern science and also this belief that the the the transition of Technology has been fully complete from ancient people to today and there's nothing is slipped through the net That doesn't seem to be the case. And also for sure, they didn't have the ability to document things at least and preserve those documents to today. Like we can today, in regards to research, in regards to which you could find out in the modern laboratories, and just what you're able to do, to find out which of these mycelium strains are effective, which of them are not, at least for the particular thing you're looking for. Like all this, you've got to assume at one point in time people had some sort of knowledge about this stuff that we just have lost. We had to. [1:02:00] We were so dependent upon the environment. We know what plants are edible from the experiences of our ancestors right? Eighth and before us. And it doesn't discredit modern medicine, to say that these people had this extraordinary understanding of what was beneficial. Absolutely. And this is where the hubris of science we should be very careful. Right. Because the importance of biodiversity cannot be overstated. But it's... Ubers anywhere. Ubers anywhere. importance of biodiversity cannot be overstated. Bioburus. Anywhere. Yeah. It's... It's everywhere. Every single place it shows it's had it fucks it up. And everything, even in martial arts, guys that think that they can't lose, go in and get fucked up. It happens all the time. Hubert's is terrible. It's just a terrible... It's the human ego trying to keep itself from being, like, just to recognize its true place, which is just part of an infinite sea of things that are happening simultaneously. And you're not really that important. You are important, but everything is important. And you're not more important than anything. It's all together. [1:03:00] I totally agree. It seems to be, unfortunately, lopsided in favor of the Y chromosome. Yeah, huge risk not Y chromosome Oh, yeah, we're 100% we're we're the fault of it all. That's true. That's 100% true But it's also why we invent everything It's just like we we're a bizarre Subset of the humans that causes so much chaos and so much good at the same time Well, I have great hope for the future. I do too. Sometimes. Sometimes I do. Today is a good day. Maybe because you're here. Yeah. Maybe I've good. I mean thank goodness that we live in these times that we do with all the problems that we face and look at the medical advances that we've made. I'm getting hip surgery in two weeks. I can barely, I can barely, I can barely, I We were just talking about that. You also are a martial artist in all the years of thrown kicks. You've worn one of your hips out. I've quite a few friends who've had that done. My friend, John Wayne Parr, who's still active. He's got a fight coming up soon. He had a hip replacement and fought after the hip replacement. At least once, I think you fought twice. [1:04:00] Yeah, my surgeon said besides cataract surgery, this is the best medical innovation has the greatest difference in patients before and after surgery than hip surgery. Yeah, well, I told you about Graham Hancock. He had his done and then six weeks later, he was walking around here. My mom just had her knee done and she's fine. It's great, I was so nervous about it. I just didn't want her to do it. I wanted her to get stem cells. I wanted her to try to treat it. And just... Well, the biggest concern we have is merseon, you know? That's the same one. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. Yeah, but... I know quite a few people have gotten that as well. Yeah, so... Jiu-Jitsu is a breeding ground for that shit. You get scratches and scrapes, and and then they get infected. It happens all the time, specifically just staffed specifically, but MRSA exists too. And I know quite a few people have done that. Back the day, we always were, do we wiping up the mats of blood? I mean, no, you can't have blood, in the dojo or the dojo, you know? It's considered to be a health hazard, so it's so much more restricted now. [1:05:02] Perhaps not in the mixed martial arts that you're involved with. Well, the thing about the grappling is just the scrapes. You're constantly getting scraped up. You can kickbox in spats and rash guards, and you're probably gonna mitigate a lot of scratches and scrapes with gloves on and foot gear, all that's you ask. But if you're grappling, you're constantly grinding things on those mats, and you're getting scratches from fingernails and you're getting accidental collot collisions that cause little cuts and abrasions and they get infected. And people that don't, like my friend Ari, he had no idea he had staff. I gave him a year of Jiu-Jitsu for Christmas and he and I were at the pool hall. And this still scares me to this day because I think he came close to dying. He was walking around with a limp and I go, I go, what's wrong with your leg? And he goes, I got bit by a spider bite. I go, let me see it. He pulls his knee up. He's got a massive staff infection on his knee. I go, dude, that staff. I go, we gotta go to the hospital right now. He goes, are you serious? I go right now and I broke my cue down. I go, we got to go right now. [1:06:06] You have to go to the hospital man. You have a bad staff infection. And he was fucked up for a while from it. He got through it, the antibiotics worked. Thankfully it wasn't MRSA. It wasn't medication-resistant staff infections. And it was just horrific. Well, this speaks to, I got a innate immunity. You know, if you're, and nature's the numbers can, you know, you have different coefficient variables of one side of the equation, the other side of the equation is health or disease. And so how can you stock that to your favor? Right. You have to be robust. You have to eat well, you have to take vitamins, you have to get exercise, and you know, it seems like mushrooms can help you quite a bit. I'm a big fan of lines main. I take lines main every day. That's one of the big ones that I take. I'm excited to. Yeah, but I wanted to ask you this, like are there better ones to take? Is a tincture better than capsules? Is capsules better than tincture? Those are good questions. The extracts allow you to the, the activates directly to the [1:07:01] macosa. So it gets into your bloodstream. But for instance, turkey tail lines main and agaracon are very good as prebiotics for the microflora in your stomach. Double blind placebo controlled study, again, go to mushroomreferences.com with amongst the cillin patients where they're microbiome and they're gut destroyed because of this potent antibacterial antibiotic. And so they found when they gave turquetyl mushroom and mycelium, again double-blind and placebo controlled, and they looked at their microbiome, those who took turquetyl mycelium, recovering with a moxacillin, end up up regulating beneficial bacteria, insulin end up up regulating beneficial bacteria and down regulating staff and clostridium etc. lactobacillus acidophilus and bifidobacterium were up regulated. These are beneficial bacteria. So there's an example that also if you orally ingest then you can set up the microbiome to a higher state of readiness to help whole [1:08:08] stasis, you know, health, and then you absorb the components directly in. So it, again, it tends to, it depends on what your target is. If it's general immunity, support, then the oral ingestion. If you're concerned about the port of entry, you know, like of a pathogen through the macosa, then obviously, you know, oral introduction in so far as the support community can stave off the entry point of those pathogens. So would you recommend both a tincture and capsules? The tincture would stave it off at the sores? I cannot respond to anyone using the question recommend. Okay. I can say what I personally do is a combination of both. Okay. And nature's a number of scales. I just ask you that from now on. What do you do? So you know, I don't want to get you trapped [1:09:01] in these conundrums. Yeah, it's, so you take both tincture form and capsule form. Yeah, I take a throat spray, which has a gyrocon of turkey tail in it. I love it. That's what I use all the time when I got a concert, it had been in crowds, et cetera. Oh, smart. And the morning I'm taking lion's main turkey tail in a gyrocon. I'm 68. I know. I'm 68. You look great. I, well, to talk about a cubist, my partner's a medical doctor, and every time that I feel like I feel like I'm 30, I don't feel my age at all. The next day I fall off a ladder. You're 12 feet. Again, cubist, bam. So I have to be careful what I say now. Ubrist is real. It is, and I think nature has a sense of humor to whack you up on the side of the head to teach you the versus the sense of humor. Yeah. There's certain aspects to it that almost seem like it's playing like very subtle jokes. We're at the beginning of just understanding the importance of the biodiversity of the ecosystems [1:10:02] that's given us birth. This is really, it's a continuum. But I'm really excited about the innovations of what's happening with psilocybin. And psilocybin and lion's mane in particular is something I'm very excited about neurogenesis, neuro-generation, neuro-pusticity, neuro-regeneration for different things. But they all segue into this concept of the neurological systems being improved using components within mushrooms. And that's something that I think has a lot of potential for us, especially as we age. It really is interesting how as we get old and as the science, all these things advances, we realize how shallow it really was just a few decades ago, and how little we knew about the effects of these things. It's just very, it's just including vitamins and minerals and all the different supplements that people take [1:11:01] that are shown to be beneficial. It's like, this is a very recent thing in terms of human history, of our current understanding, like our scientific understanding of mechanism of vitamins. Yeah. I'm keen on it. It's the absence of vitamins that you see the deleterious effects. So it's like, you know, research by absence, you know, of vitamin C, screw nose, screw B, et cetera. absence, you know, vitamin C, and grenose, and so on. But I'm very keen on, on stacking, you know, in microdosing. That's something that we've had a lot of activity. I'd like to give you a huge thank you. This is very sincere to you and to the JRE audience. And Jamie, can we put up that Signed the nature article on microdosing and Basically when I was here last we were talking about microdosing and I came up with a stack of [1:12:06] Lions main and We were talking about microdose and and I came up with a stack of lion's mane and Microdose is also I've been below the threshold of feeling it and nice and nicotinic acid which is a flushing form and We did a call out for people to Join and download an app at microdose.me as for iPhones and George so they could measure before and after effects of microdosing. And what we found and we published this, this is the first article that we published. And this was in 2019, I believe, oh, 2000, 2021s. This is on their motivations. If we go to the next article, well, we can stop here for a second. This is the title here. Adult to microdose psychedelics report health-related motivations and lower levels [1:13:02] of anxiety and depression compared to non-microdossers. What does that mean? Health-related motivations. Why are you microdossing? Because you don't feel creative, because you're depressed, because you're having anxiety. This is the extraordinary metric. And this is something you may not realize. This majority of this came from your audience. This audience right now. But if you look at that, 4,600 non-microdozers, and only 4,000 microdozers. Joe, do you have any idea? We have more citizen scientists who are non-microdozers who jumped into this app. This is why the editors at Nature like the study because it was called so well weighted. So well weighted because they're the non-microdozers exceeded in this case, fairly comparable, but 4,653 non-microdozers who downloaded the microdose.me app [1:14:01] to measure performance and how they felt. And Jamie, if we could go to the next one. me app to measure performance and how they felt. And Jamie, if we could go to the next, so let's be clear here. They're non-micro-doses, but they micro-dosed for the study. No. No. No. They didn't. All they did is got these challenge tests. So they took the download of the app, but they didn't do anything to their consciousness. They didn't do any microdose thing at all. Okay. So, and this is why they were, and then why do you think so many of them that don't microdose signed up for that? We have no frigging clue. You tell us. Wow. I think it may have been citizen scientists who wanted to get a baseline first, and then that you consider people lying because they don't want you to know that they're microdose. It's anonymous, you know? Yeah, but we're scared. The next one if you would with a micro app. A lot of correction. Sylasybin microdoses demonstrate greater observed improvements in mood and mental health at one month relative to non-microdosing controls. We had it. Why did they have to make a correction? [1:15:01] Well, let me show the next slide with a graph. Let me show the next slide with a graph. You can see it. The reason why is that there was a typo, an original article. It's the one with a bar graph, if you can see it. You know this, I got it, it's a little tough to find the links. No worries. How long have you had this company host defense? I've started that host defense ran about 2004, is what I started. I see them everywhere now, seeming health food stores and chips. We're the number one mushroom based immune product line. Get excited for you. Yeah, yeah. Go for it, Paul. Go for it, Paul. Go for it, Paul. Okay, we'll just go. This is the app. We'll go through the four slides here. That'll be great. So this is the app. Microdose.me. I encourage everyone listening to help us because now the app has been improved. It was a little bit laborious before. We want to go out to three months. We want non-microdosis and microdosis, but please the non-microdosis, [1:16:02] we need your input. These are our challenge tests. These are acuity tasks. Acuity tasks, the actual app itself. Vision, hearing, memory. How do you feel, etc. I'll go ahead and ask you before I forget. Who is the scientist that ran those studies a long time ago, where they showed that psilocybin in low doses increased edge detection and increased your ability to see whether two parallel lines, one of them had gone off of parallel. I do know of the reference. I do not remember foreign scientists. Yeah. German. Yeah. You have a good memory, but better than mine. I don't remember the name of the yeah, the scientists, but this is a long time ago. Long time ago. Yeah, this is probably in the 60s or something like that. So um, and then if we so these these tasks have they demonstrated that the people that are taking the microdose have better results in these? [1:17:08] Absolutely. Are you filtering out for, you know, healthy user bias, IQs, on patients? We have, there is, takes five minutes to enter into the data set to create your profile as anonymous. You own your data. It's gone through institutional review boards to the University of British Columbia. So all been carefully vetted. You own your data, nobody else gets to see what you've done or your frequency. It asks you your age, your income, your nationality, or your, did I ask you to occupation? Did not ask occupation. Education? Education, yes. Did that ask you to ask your occupation? Did not ask occupation. Education? Education, yes. And whether we have a college degree, high school, or whatever. So we have a tremendous, I mean, with literally millions and millions of data points. The data field's so robust, and now we're trying to narrow it to confirm what we saw in the first studies. [1:18:04] Microdosing is associated with a massive relief of depression, a relief of anxiety, an increase in mood, and now we have customized it for more, and not so much subjective effects, but cognitive demonstrable skill improvement. Because, of course, people people, when people feel better, they feel better. Some people can say that's an expectancy or a placebo. It's ironic because it's like a patient coming into a doctor saying, I feel better than they go, no, you can't feel better in this placebo. But doctors use expectancy all the time. Every time you go to a doctor, you expect they're gonna to have a medicine, good medical advice. You want a kind and caring physician. Every time you go to a five or four star restaurant, you expect the foods going to be good. So you can't, we're humans, we're complex. You can't divorce one's motivation for getting a treatment away from the expectancy of that on that treatment. [1:19:01] Right. So does the expectancy enhance the medicine? That's the question. If people are not depressed and not less prone to suicide, and you save them from suicide, isn't that what physicians want to do? They want to help their patients be better. So the stacking results, though, is what we found to be most surprising and Can ask you a extraordinary do you Measure do you ask the people to go through the visual acuity or the different tasks sober first to get a baseline and then see if there's improvement from microdosing or did you just show that the group that Microdosis has higher levels of proficiency? You know, I don't think we asked them the question if they're so or at the time they take the test. But not even sober because we're talking about microdosing. Microdosing, but did you ask them like they use marijuana? [1:20:01] No, it doesn't measure. Does it measure the difference between them before microdosing and them after microdosing? Yes, it does. So you had a baseline. So before you ever microdose, I'd like you to take these tasks and do these puzzles and whatever, whatever. Yeah, thanks. You have visual. We have visual. We have cognitive tests. We have acuity tests. We have hearing. Hearing. hearing, hearing, using headphones, or using just their phones off the phone. So you can be able to hear things as an auditory challenge. Is it dependent upon the volume of the phone? That's, you're asking really really good questions because the type of phone, the type of speaker, iPhone 12 or iPhone 15. The newer phones in the speculators. Yeah, it gets much more complicated than the other tests. And so we have a, it's narrow down on what we really want is people to go for three months. So the signal that we got in 30 days was extremely strong. But we need to be able to repeat the results to confirm. [1:21:04] And then we want to extend the microdosing window of testing to three months. Now people only need to once they get their baseline, they only need to report once every two weeks or once a month. So it's a much less burdensome for the people joining microdose taught me to perform the task. They can see their results compared to the average. So there's a dashboard that's present so they can see where they are relative to the average. And eventually they will have access to all their own data. But as all anonymized, as all protected, it's on servers in British Columbia. So it's all tightly controlled so the anonymity is assured. Jamie, you able to find that chart? I don't know. Let's go back to the next slide if you could. Next one. Next one. That's the thing we're tapping test. [1:22:01] Let me just, okay, this is the one I want to focus on. This is why there was an author correction. The p-value of significance here is .004. That made us one chance in 250 that this is a random result. This is published in Nature, Scientific Reports, went through peer review. We didn't see any increase. The tap test is how often you can tap your two fingers together in 10 seconds. For those of you at traumatic brain injury, you probably know a number of these people, traditionally they do a tap test. All-timer, dementia, Parkinson's, they do tap tests. Unfortunately, there's a steady decline. But the tap test has been validated, and just another article came out this past week saying that handheld devices are validated medically now for patient reports. So this is the chart that blew all of us away. Is that the green line is people taking the stamens stack, which is Salosby, Covensis approximately one-tenth of a dried gram, [1:23:07] 500 milligrams of lines made by Cillium, and 50 milligrams of Flushing Nieson, those three together. Now, the non-microdozers, you can see, over 30 days, no significant increase in the tap testing, microdozers only with cellos siren, the blue line. Cell siren only, not statistically significant. But those people were taking the stack, went from tapping 48 taps in 10 seconds to 68 taps in one month. Wow. Think about that. Think of your on a computer, your guitar player, your drummer. Think about walking to the bathroom and not falling. Think about this, this is not subjective. This is an affirmation of an improvement in psychomotor performance. Wow. Now, here you'll ask me the question again. What is the performance? Yeah, athletic performance. [1:24:01] How does this work? We don't know how it works. We just know that it does work. Wow. So we want to extend this out to 90 days. We want to see maybe the micro-dozers with soloside and blue only, maybe that starts to uptake, maybe it's to delayed and then it increases. Maybe this green line with a stem on stock, maybe it emulator rates and softens, or maybe it next cellar rates. But I looked us up and for you to do the tap test involves six regions of your brain. You look at your fingers, you ID8, you look at your fingers, you start your psychomotor cadence, you get a feedback from touching the table, and that feeds you back, and then you develop a rhythm, a rhythm. And so we let people tap test for several days so they go up the learning curve, so we don't include them in the first several days, and then people that get like practice, [1:25:02] but then we see this result. So I think we're onto something really exciting here. But that value of P is 0.004, one chance in 250. It's very hard. I mean, you can't say a succubectancy. You can't say a placebo. It's a performance skill that's being demonstrated. So, and now I chose niacin because solsavans of vasoconstrictor, niacin is the vasodilator. I chose a flushing form of niacin because you tingle. And I thought, wow, we give the neurogenic benefits of cell sivans to get it to the end points of the peripheral nervous system. Neuroopathy is often times present themselves with the deadening of the fingertips and the toes. So with vasodilation, you get more blood flow to where the neuropathies are occurring. And then, Lyonsbane, well demonstrated, again, mushroomreferences.com, you can do many, many references up, showing that Lyonsbane Mycelium contains these compounds called aeronase scenes that helps rebuild myelin on the axons of nerves to enable signal transmission, [1:26:06] and also stimulates NGFs, nerve growth factors, for the proliferation and the extension of the nerve rights to the further crawl. So I stack those three together, and again, I'm a co-author in the paper. I had no access to this data. In fact, they called me up, says, we see a signal. We don't believe it. We're taking the data set back fact, they called me up, says, we see a signal, we don't believe it. We're taking, we're not going to take, we're taking the data set back and they attacked it three different ways with separate statistical methods and the data held true. And so we know there's the increase in psychomotor performance. So there's a lot of musicians now that are very keen on taking the stock. And they're saying their banjo playing is better. I think if you're you've been playing the guitar or teaching piano all your life, you're dependent upon this digital dexterity to be able to have your acumen and your digital dexterity as you age helps you pass down knowledge to the next generation. I mean, this is really exciting. [1:27:06] We need to disambiguate it. We need a big data set. And I'm calling out to Joe Rogan experienced listeners, especially you non-micro dosers, we need you. And then we need everyone to go at least three months, at least populate the baseline, check in month one, month two, month three. We need to see if this data holds up because I was actually surprised. I thought solar side and microdosing by itself would have had greater lift off on the psychomotor performance than we saw. I suspect it will have lift off more so when we go in the month two or three, but we don't know. Let the data and the science lead. But the fact that we got the signal, and again, how does it work? Why does it work? Where does it work? Folks, it works, right? You don't see a force for the trees because you're so conflicted in trying to understand the mechanism of action. [1:28:00] But I'd like to see you apply to other tests. Have you ever seen those tests that they do where they have like an electronic wall and there's lights and The light when it goes off you're supposed to tap it. Yep, and so there's a bunch of them Like a lot of boxers use them They use them to heighten their reaction time. We have that on the on the app also. Oh, no flowers Flowers, yeah tap tap tap tap tap tap. Yeah, and you have to do it again. But the thing about the one that you have to touch is you have to actually move your body. Right. So you're moving your arms, you're reaching down, you're going up, you're in there all in front of you and you never know which one's gonna light up. This is just the beginning. That type of model that you just subscribed, to me it would be much more informative than the top tells. Have you seen, you know what I'm talking about, right Jamie? See if we can find a video, those so you can show it to him. But I always wondered, why are these guys doing that? Is that really help fight performance? I'm not sure. I mean, I think sometimes like trainers get caught up in technology and they have you doing certain. I think your time are probably best spent using technique, [1:29:01] but I don't know. I mean, is there a reason why that would like lights going off would somehow another make you move better? See look at these things work I mean, what is that doing to your mind that is so beneficial? Well that person is an exceptional, that's an exceptional. I got a solid dose right now. He's on the Stamets stack. Oh, this girls use their feet. Look at this. Interesting. Be faster. But does it actually make you faster? I think it would. I think to a point, everybody plot toes when they practice. They end up practicing to hitting 90% of the optimum of their performance. And then they hit sort of a new baseline. And it's hard to get above that. Right. We hit that ceiling. How do you break, break through that ceiling? Right. This, I think, is an opportunity to break through that ceiling. [1:30:05] And it would be really fascinating to see if it could be applied to skills, you know, sports and athletics, martial arts, things along those lines. It would be interesting to see archery, be interesting to see if it increases people's abilities. Is there so many stories of performance enhancement on low doses of psilocybin? Yes. You we've all heard them assistant, there's something there. I've experienced it with pool. With pool. Yeah, the game becomes like 10% easier. And see, this is why these observational studies are important to medicine. Clinical studies are based on early signals. And the clinical studies are trying to refine, reduce the variables to see a cause and effect. But we only, clinical studies are only started, and it's not out of the blue. You know, they have to have a good theoretical basis, observational studies by tens of thousands of people create the signals. So the data set we have is so big we're going to try to use AI to say what else is hidden in this data. The reason why we went to the top test is that so many of our beneficial outcomes were depression, anxiety, mood. [1:31:07] These are all subjective. And so when I ask a physician, we know what is an objective test? That's not subjective. She said, oh, we have the top test. You know, so that's why this is a demonstration of something that is happening that is performance-related, that's outside of subjectivity, expectancy, et cetera. This is performance measurement, that's solid data. And now, and think about this, Joe. They're getting this Solzai Mushams in the underground market. We sell 50% of the line's main products are out in the market, but other people are selling lion's main products. They're getting a variable amounts of niacin. Those are all confounders that would reduce the significance of that data. That means that this data could be understated if you standardize everything to a standardized amount. [1:32:00] So we don't know where the, how to optimize it. How far do you think we are from some sort of a legalization of psilocybin? I think within five years. Yeah. I think we'll go from schedule one to schedule three out for the election or schedule two for sure. But psilocybin, I mean psilocybin. Why do you think of the election specifically? Because everyone's so worried about margins. If you piss off 5% of the people, do you lose 5% of the vote? No one wants to do. It makes it look like they're weak on crime or something. Yeah, it's something like that. But see, this is the beauty of the sales I've been. What I am very encouraged by is law enforcement. I have met so many law enforcement officers. Now just, let's be real about this. If you're a law enforcement officers. Now just let's be real about this. If you're a law enforcement officer, you have 100, 100 arrest encounters. Are you going to be perfect for the 100 of them? No. If you're a veteran and you have 100 expeditions, are you going to be perfect with 100 of them? No. Are you through a doctor? Are you going gonna be perfect on 100 of them? No. And you'll make a mistake. [1:33:05] Everyone has a really bad day. Do you want that bad day to define the rest of your life as a skeleton, your closet, or monkey under a back? Or you do something that's fundamentally wrong but you can't talk about it. And then you then react out against other people because you're in turmoil. There are so many law enforcement people that have turned churches. There's one called the Define, Divine Assembly Church in Salt Lake City. There's another way a church called the Church of Ambrosia in Oakland, more than 100,000 people. They're cloaking themselves inside these churches for civil rights protection. But when they get together with the community of other veterans, the law enforcement officers, and they can share their grief, their sorrows, their mistakes and not be condemned for it, we lack forgiveness in this society. We don't have enough people acknowledging their mistakes without fear of retribution [1:34:05] and say, I'm better than that one bad day. That's not going to define my life. And so what's happening in Canada and the United States to a degree is law enforcement officers know that other officers are benefiting from this. So they are deprioritizing, so I've been decriminalizing it because they're benefiting from this. So they are deprioritizing, solace, I've been decriminalizing it because they're benefiting from it. So these, it's a big thing among soldiers. It's a big thing among soldiers. I've met so many, many, many guys have had very, very beneficial experiences. I believe humans are generally very good, good. They're motivated by goodness, but they get hijacked because of a very bad day or sequence of bad days because then that becomes an inflammatory pathway. Well, sure there's the stress of the job itself. If you're in law enforcement, every day you could get shot. Every day you might not come home to your family. Every person you pull over with hinted windows might blow you away before you get to the window. [1:35:02] Can you imagine walking up to a car with windows up, you know, the unknown person, and you have one second to two seconds to make a life into that decision. I don't want that responsibility. In the PTSD, you're probably already racked with anxiety because you probably already experienced so many things that most people can never imagine. That depression, anxiety, frustration creates an inflammatory response that depresses the immune system that then can lead to diseases such as cancer, vulnerability to viruses, you know, and the anger issues emanate outwards. I, all of us, I think, have been affected by fentanyl, you know, in my county, Mason County, Washington, 17 people died in two weeks from fentanyl. 17 people, a small county. The fentanyl crisis is killing some of the best of our youth. It's terrifying. It's terrifying because it's unprecedented. There's never been a time where so many people are dying of overdoses. And this is accidental [1:36:02] overdoses from things. And this should be the priority of law enforcement. There's law enforcement. We're going to be on the wrong side of history, busting somebody for civil Simon. With that's going to go on their resume and 10, 15, 20 years, maybe five years from now. It'd be like busting somebody for marijuana, where it's legal in so many states. Right. What do you think that the the the solution to the fentanyl crisis is? Is it legalization? I mean, that's a tough one, right? Because legalization scares people, because, and I would agree with this, but for sure, if hard drugs are legal, more people are going to try them, because they're more available. They're going to, but you will at least be trying the actual drug and not getting like street volume that has fentanyl in it or you have criminal syndicates. Yeah. That's the other part of it. And they have basically addiction militias, militias of people who are addicts coming to them to give them money. I'm not an expert on drug policy. There are other people that are, [1:37:07] I would first take the step that all natural products containing any scheduled one substance should be legal, not illegal, psilocybin, masculine, you know, you can make the argument for LSD. I think that, you know, that's the first step is all natural products should be legalized. De-criminalization, if you cannot get legalization, and then have a decriminalization with therapy. I think if we don't have legal constraints, just like speed limits on the highway. Do you really want anyone to drive as fast as they can? We do need limits. We have to throttle this down. So our structures are in place for us to be able to make the best positive impact with [1:38:00] the least amount of harm. And that's the quagmire that we're in. Other countries in the world, and now the Brick-Dalbuk and Andy Welkin speak on this, eloquently as many other people. But I want to stay in my lane of mushrooms. And I think there's over 200 species of psilocybin mushrooms. 162 species in the genus salasabi. And just recently I'm happy to say I have a new species named after my me. My college just honored me by naming a new psilocybin mushroom salasabi stomatcii. So I am so I'm this a new one that they discovered they discovered in the rainforest in Ecuador. It's very rare. Please don't pick it. But there's no greater honor in my college. You didn't have a species named after discovered in the rainforest in Ecuador. It's very rare, please don't pick it. But there's no greater honor in my college. You didn't have a species named after you. You never name it after yourself. It's a field of medicine. You can do that with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, et cetera. But the field of myology and botany, it's an honor to be queued to you by other scientists. [1:39:01] So there are 162 species all over the world, there's been over 5,000 collections of syllabi mushrooms since the 1800s. So, they are bridges across cultures, across centuries. I would argue across millennia and any people living in the ecosystem long enough would stumble upon these syllabi mushrooms, especially things like Slotsky-Kevensis, which is upon these solid-civen mushrooms, especially things like Slossaby Covensis, which is a big golden mushroom that's associated with cows. You can't miss it, right? You can see Slossaby Covensis folks 200 feet away driving 55 miles an hour. You know, if you're tuned in, you can see them in the fields. They're that glaringly obvious. You pull over and pick them. I can't help myself. What do you for research for research? Of course. Your research. You were actual my colleges. There goes one. What is what's your take on Dennis McKenna's experience that he had in the Amazon where the [1:40:03] reality sort of broke down for a couple weeks. Dennis is a dear friend of mine. I love that. And Terrence was a dear friend of mine. Terrence and I were best buddies and I love them both. My brother John died and he was my mentor. And Terrence dying also was with Terrence to the end. And Terrence always said, Dennis is the real scientist. You know, I'm a psycho not philosopher, you know, the best command of the English language of anyone I've ever met, you know, Terrance. And Dennis and Terrance, you know, I think have made, have been courageous in their viewpoints of pushing the envelope. And this is where it's really important. Again, where is the forgiveness in people? You don't always have to be right. The fact that you try and you fail. You talking about some of Terence's bizarre theories. Terence's the bizarre theories. I mean, the time wave zero. Time wave zero is bullshit. I mean, I'm sorry. [1:41:01] I challenged Terence on this. He had time wave zero. We explain that to people that don't know what we're talking about. Time waves zero is an algorithm of historic events that steer the course of humanity, as best I remember it, and Terrance invented this. But the problem with time wave zero that I pointed out to Terrance, he said the birth and death of Christ was not an historically significant event. As a Terrance, I know you're not Christian, but you can't deny that the birth and death of Christ was not an historically significant event. So it was not in time way zero. Well, he was skeptical of the existence of Christ as an individual. But even if a Christ did not exist, the event of that period would have been significant event. The crusades occurred, all the stuff that happened, just even the creation of the Christian religion. The Christian, the Christian religion was a historically significant event that ramified throughout history. So Terrence's time wave zero did not recognize that. From the best of my understanding, [1:42:00] I talked to Terrence about this a lot. And then he had the end of time being the death on his birthday, which...'ll give you. And so but then but for Terrence's defense, he had the best answer I could ever have thought of because I was saying I was vilifying Terrence. This is bullshit bullshit. And he goes, Paul is an ever changing algorithm. I'll just keep on adjusting it. And I thought, okay, that was a good answer. It's a good answer, but so the algorithm is essentially based on taking historical events that we know of that are fact and putting them into this database. And a string that would then predict other historical events that will occur in the future. But you couldn't predict the specific event, you would just predict significant events. That's my understanding, but this is... But a big one was December 21st, 2012, and nothing really happened. But did something happen? Maybe we're not aware? [1:43:03] There are many things happening of which we're not aware. not aware. There are many things happening of which we're not aware. But is it possible that a significant change in the world happened that we're not aware of? Well, I mean, you're asking me to, I mean, the world today is one thing. If you did go back to 2012 and looked at the world and then looked at the world in 2024, it's radically different. It's pretty fucking wild. And if you had to say, like, what happened? Like, historically, when we look back at the collapse of Western civilization for say, let's say it all goes sideways and we go into nuclear war and this and that and the grid goes down, we're back to Stone Age people. If anybody survives, if you go back to, you know, that this time, if a thousand years from now people look back in this time, they'll be looking at a sequence of events. Like what happened that caused all this? What was the catalyst? Was it social media? Was it the December 21st, 2012 was a random number relatively. But 2012 is a significant beginning of the change of society. [1:44:11] In terms of social media use. Yes, I would agree. I think you had parsed us out where every single day as a historical event of greater or lesser significance, depending upon your point of view. Chat GBT, of course. When you look at things like that, the ubiquitous use of AI, the fact that it seems to be getting far more powerful, far quicker than we can predict. Yeah, artificial intelligence, I think it's misnamed. I call it digital intelligence. It can be that, but it's ultimately natural intelligence. You know, we have created artificial intelligence, you know, we have given birth to this technology. It is from our natural intelligence that we have created a subset of artificial intelligence. Yeah. A hundred million microbes in a cubic inch of soil, you know, eight, ten or more miles of mycelium, cross-talking, all these organisms, a quorum, [1:45:05] that's an concept by a molecular communication. The infinite, not infinite, but the enormous amount of complexity that's under every footstep that we take, and we get so intoxicated by our new invention that we think is the brightest object in the Christmas tree, I think AI is going to be fantastic for medicine. It's going to be fantastic so many things. But I don't think AI will be able to capture intentionality or generosity or the emotional indebtedness we have when you find and find somebody who's out of disadvantage who needs help, you reach out your hand and kindness. It's not a one-to-one transactional exchange. The fact that you joke helped somebody else when you didn't need to. And there's no obligation, circumstantially otherwise, you voluntarily help somebody. [1:46:03] You've created a reciprocal debt of gratitude that cannot fall into any metric, I believe. That person's gonna go, Joe help me. That guy's good. I owe it to myself and to him to pass it forward. And that's why I think it's also happening. I'm gonna segue back to psilocybin. When you look at psilocybin, a person's in turmoil, they're angry. There's a great example here in here in Austin with a police chief and the police force. There's one bad actor and this and other law enforcement officers are very worried. This person might take the department down and he was just should not be in law enforcement. He was angry. He acted out and they encouraged him to go to a weekend church and he recognized he had problems. He did a high dose of psilocybin. He came back the next day over the weekend on Monday and people did [1:47:01] not recognize him. He fundamentally changed into a new person. He lost his anger issues. He was polite, considerate. He asked for forgiveness. Think about that. We don't want to talk about negative things because we're embarrassed and we share the shame of a family member or but when something positive happens, I'm talking to you about it. It's like a pebble in the pond that emanates out echoes of goodness and goodwill. And that's where I don't think AI is going to be able to cover and quantify. It might try to. It might have higher predictive outcomes based on the data sets, but I just feel like, feel like, we need to train AI for our benefit. We need to learn from AI, but there are humanity and who we are and our intentionality and friendship and love for each other. I think we'll always be the super force [1:48:02] that governs the universe. Well, that's a beautiful sentiment. I think our ability to be kind to each other is very important to us. I don't know if it's very important to the sun. I wonder if what we are and the things that are so valuable to us exists because it sort of motivates us and pushes us in the direction that we currently find ourselves in, where we're in a constant state of technological evolution and innovation, and that this is all, this is what motivates us to do these things. And I wonder if these life forms that we are creating, and I think we are, and I think we're probably already, we've probably already done it, to a certain extent, that these don't have all of these same values, because they're not us, but they'll also be free of all the things that do cause depression, and do cause anger, and do cause irrationality, [1:49:02] and do cause harmful thoughts and feelings and painful memories and all those things. These are remnants of our ancient primate DNA that is necessary to us because we are trapped in it, but might not be necessary to whatever this next stage of existence is. I can see that, but you know, families matter. Yeah, matters to the families. Yeah, families do. But they're finite. These are experiences that we're having currently, and it is important, currently. It's important. I so I'm not diminishing it, but I'm saying if I had to take an overall perspective, is this the only way to do it? No, it's not the only way to do it. Are our emotions and our desires and needs, the things that have motivated us to get us to this position that we're currently in, are those riddled with side effects like war and murder and thievery and all the things that we know that exist in the world, that are a part of the human condition. you know if you ask an any rational person today [1:50:06] What are the odds? Well, I've no war in three years fucking zero zero humans have always engaged in war and well What is that why is that what's because the motivations are all the same? They're the same motivations that Napoleon had the same motivations other people who are abused with their child have a tendency to become abusers from their adults. I think that psilocybin makes nicer people. I think so too. More compassionate. Yeah. And I'd like to redefine the benefits in the theory of evolution is not the survival of the fittest, but the extension of generosity of surplus beyond your own needs to help a neighbor or a friend. I think we're talking about different things because I agree with that, well, wholeheartedly. And I think for human beings, they're extraordinarily beneficial. And they happen for me. My concern is that we are, we're like homo sapien version one, and that this new thing that we become, whether we integrate or whether we just die off is another thing. [1:51:07] I agree with you. I think we're at the crossroads. In the crossroads, one leads to an extinction path. Yeah. And the other one is sustainable. Because ultimately we cannot continue when destroying the biosphere and expect it to support us. Right. Yeah. And just our way of living is kind of unsustainable long-term. It's the positive hope is that AI and science itself and technological innovation will mitigate all of the negative side effects that we will concentrate on using intelligence to clean up the air and clean up the ocean and do all the sort of fix all the problems that we've personally created. But what I wonder is that we are so attached to us to the idea of us with all of our flaws. Are we any different than Australia Pithicus? If you told Australia Pithicus, hey, buddy. [1:52:00] In the future, everyone's gonna have a phone in their pocket and no one's gonna need all these muscles and fucking hair All over your face and back. This is like you're gonna die off Like you're not gonna be you anymore. Australia pithicus. Like get the fuck out of here. I gotta go gather food Get away from me. You're an idiot. Now, I don't want to be you I want to be me if it with no more Australia pithicus. They all we all die off That would suck because that's all you know. And I think that homo sapiens are not long. You asked very, very good questions for which there's very few answers. But I think the very active asking the question is to stimulate the thought creates the milieu of creativity that will come up with solutions to some of these issues. I would like to think that we'd be coming in light and species. I think that we get our shit together. Psychedelics is the best potential to last hope. Yeah, it really is. It's funny that it's the most undermined. It's the most maligned publicly, the most dismissed as being nonsense, [1:53:00] usually, and almost entirely, by people who have an experience to it, which is really fascinating. When, by people who have an experience to it, which is really fastening. When you see people that have not had psychedelic experiences to dismiss psychedelic experiences, that is a wild thing to do. Boy, you are so silly, and you don't even know you're silly, and you're the majority, which is wild. Yeah, we represent less than the 1% of those who are psychedelically experienced who understand many of the studies like at Johns Hopkins. What are the numbers? Do we know? Like publicly, if you have just the United States, what percentage of people have had like legitimate breakthrough psychedelic experiences? Less than 1%. Less than 1%. How many people have experimented with psychedelics? I think depending on the age group, it actually is quite high now. You know, it's up to 10, 20%. But how do you explain the enough of all? How do you explain something that you cannot put to words? And this is where just like, oh, you people are crazy because you can't articulate it. And then every person that I know of have gone through with one of these heroic doses, come back and say, oh my God, I can't even explain it. [1:54:01] Exactly. It's like we have a thin sliver of reality right now, Joe. Right. We're looking at you and Jamie, we have such a thin sliver. And when you're under these experiences, the entire universe opens up. And you see that my consciousness has been so limited. And now I understand that I'm in relationship with everything in the universe. And it's also not just a feeling that's this intense visual experience. It's a feeling of being with a capital B. And then you feel like, oh, my mortality, that's OK. My birth, that's a good part of the continuum. I deem my life and I reassemble into a different form of my molecules and the atoms reassemble. I think this is the continuum of existence expands the dawn of time to the end of time. And even now beyond, I think that it gives me great solace in my own life to realize that I'm part of something much larger. [1:55:00] I want to share with you my Billy Graham story. Oh boy. I've never mentioned this publicly. I've taught over 3000 students in virtual propagation, how to grow my Cilim edible mushrooms, or may mushrooms. I did these workshops for a long time. And I just won. Very nice man came and came in as young 40s, mid 40s. He waited to everybody without the room. And this is about 1995, 1996. And he waited and said, Paul, I was sent here. Oh boy. And I thought, okay. And I said, I said, well, who sent you? I said, I'm with a council of 12 with Billy Graham, the charismatic Christian leader, and he said many of the council of 12 have come to their Christian beliefs through Silas Haibin. Wow. I have come to thank you for all your work, for helping us have a better relationship [1:56:04] with Jesus and our religious faith. Wow. Now I was My mother was a charismatic Christian. I grew up in that environment. I mean, I was like of course blown away. It's a charismatic Christian. They speak in tongues They do healings of their their you know They have their own culture for sure But I've heard this now with Jewish people, Islamic people, with the Buddhist people. It seems that psilocybin doesn't create a conflict in religions. It supports you in your religious beliefs of dedication to what you want and hope to become as a religious practitioner or a follower, but it's not, it doesn't throw the other religions under the bus. It just makes you more dedicated to your purpose to walk with kindness and goodness and reciprocosity to be a better person. [1:57:01] Do you think that the civil sovereign was what the host was made out of? I don't know. I don't know. Have you heard that speculation? Yes, I have. I think that this is so rich in history. I just came back from Egypt a few months ago and I went to 10 pyramids on every pyramid we found mushroom hieroglyphics, every one of them. Now, I sent this through Graham Hancock, some of these hieroglyphics, every one of them. Now, I sent this through Graham Hancock, some of these hieroglyphs, and Egyptologists said, no, they're shovels. And Jamie, there'd be a challenge for you to find this. But you, and one number one, shovels will be pointed down. And it'd be a perfect example. Well, scientists don't look at Egypt in the context of the ecosystem 4,000 years ago. And in Africa, the plateau of running rivers to Tisseli and Njar plateau has fantastic, the B-man figure. That plateau is called the plateau of running rivers. There's no mushrooms growing there. It's a desert. Same with a Nile. [1:58:00] It was the bird basket of the world. And the Greeks were the elucidian mysteries. And the Greeks, for the Elystinian mysteries, Caesar was a lover of Cleopatra, then Mark Anthony, 20 years younger, then Caesar became a lover of Cleopatra. You would think that these people, the highest strata of society, being lovers would share the most intimate secrets and potions and all of that. I think that happened. So we have, there are two other scientists who have published this before me, that the higher glyphs on these temples are of psilocybin mushrooms. So those look like mushrooms. That's one of them. What do these those look like mushrooms? But there's better ones. Okay, now let's pause on this one. So I want to give a shout out to Abdel Azim. He published this in 2016. This is the Goddess of Thor at the Dendura Temple. If you look this up, it gets less than one millimeter of rain a year. That's how dry it is. Those, that's the vase there [1:59:02] with these mushroom-like figures coming out. And the lower part is the blue lotus, a water lily associated with a mushroom. Now he published this in 2016. I'm not the only one. Stephen Burlant in 2005 published this in a fantastic individual, African-American who died from COVID. His name was Kendiary from Detroit. He also believed from his African ancestry, uh, the Africa Egyptians used to all cyber mushrooms. So we got images. Fastness. I made a little buzz with those next corner. You can't judge. Now, what are they? What do they try to say that is? You can't say that's a bunch of shovels. They know, but there's other ones. So what is the conventional explanation for what you're looking at? They said they didn't know what it was. Now, how do they not know what it is? This is it hiding. It's not hiding. But it's not hiding. They're diligent. So they're not willing to talk about it. [2:00:00] Yes, exactly. This is the Silosomy Coveances on the right. Now, as a cultivator, and many of your listeners are cultivators, they know what I'm going to say is true. You can pick up cow paddies with Silosomy Coveances, put it into a vase, just like that. It collects it, you can put water in it, it limits evaporation, the mycelium seeks light and air. So it would pop out of these orifices and that is a taxonomically correct image drawn of Salosimic evenzis and down below is the blue water lily and there's Salosimic evenzis, Egyptians, royal colors or gold and blue. The lily, water lily, the blue lotus is blue. Slossimi prevents us from golden. It bruises blueish. And Jamie, if you could humor me with just two more slides, there's the blue lotus. There's another example of the mushrooms associated [2:01:02] with the falcon. I mean, there's dozens of these images. Look at that one on the left. That's not so obviously mushrooms. Not a shovel. No, the shovel will be upside down. It's so obviously mushrooms. So obviously the way the cap is formed. And the Cuspidate cap, the shape of this. And here is a painting on papyrus, for the temple of Osiris. It also has very similar. And this next image, I think is the next image. Now there's a balloon of Salosby Cabanzas. Again, the next one would have skipped a thorn. And okay, I was looking for blue juice. I don't know if we have blue juice on there. That one's wild. What is those little figurines? These are mushroom stones, Mesoamerican mushroom stunts from Guatemala. They persisted for 1500 BCE to 500 AD, a thousand years before the conquistadors came. They were representative we think of a mushroom cult. They could have been a family like Erroloun. [2:02:02] How silly is the the conventional archaeologists won't acknowledge that those are mushrooms? Well, we actually have a reward out, and this is great that I'm speaking about it, is that we have a reward of a thousand dollars for anyone who can find Salosaric eventsus DNA in the ruins. And because we can amplify the DNA, we can prove that they're either in the vases, in the ruins. And because we can amplify the DNA, we can prove that there are either in the vases, in the ponds, or near the ponds, and doing core samples. Sort of like they've done with the little senior mysteries with Urgot. With the Urgot, yeah. Jim, can you see the blue juice image? You don't see it? It's just a hand with a vessel of blue liquid in it, two, two images. So, more than one thing can be true. When you're looking at the elucidine mysteries, oh, there we go. So, this is something that blew me away. Have you seen Dune 2? I have not. I heard it's awesome. Amazing. Frank Herbert [2:03:07] was a friend of mine. He wrote Dune. Frank Herbert lived in Port Townsend, Washington. And Frank Herbert came to visit me and Frank told me he was growing chantraels in Christmas trees that were just five years old. I go, that's impossible. I go, how are you doing that? And he goes, well, I take chanterelles and I put them into water and I pour it to the base of the trees. And it comes up. So there is the blue juice. And so if it takes the loss to be cubansus or at least it'll stop in mush from this potent, you put it into water, you create blue juice. And this is in Dune 2 where they drink it. And so I asked Frank, Frank, the eyes are blue. The Ben-Jesterrat are these the shamanic women who have this highest-centered cult [2:04:00] is that based on Maria Sabina. I said, and maggots grow through mushrooms, and I said, everything the spice seems like it spores, and your blue eyes and this blue juice, and he goes, you're the first person to notice this. Oh, wow. He said he was tripping on Solsaiven mushrooms. He was laying on his deck, and he saw worms coming out of the mushrooms at a yade. Solsai mushrooms. And that worms coming out of the mushrooms that he ate, the souls I mushroomed, and that was the dawn of the idea. Wow. Now, this is absolutely true. And I haven't met Frank Herbert's son. I really want to meet him to tell him this because he did say something about, I think he had two sons. My memory is fogging on this. But he said, I'm keeping this secret from my sons. And I said, I'm keeping this secret from my sons. And I said, why? He goes, well, they're illegal. And they're just at the age right now that I don't want them to tell other people about this. Oh, no. So, but it all makes perfect sense. So Spice is for the blue juice from the blue juice just off that was made there. [2:05:02] Yeah. It all ties together. And look at that beautiful color. Okay, so this is from the Church of Enbrosia, I think David Hodges, and this is philosophy conventions on the right, and this is philosophy as a reference on the left. And the psilocybin is a pro drug for psilocybin, psilocybin degrades enzymatically into indigo, the molecule, the indigo molecule complex. And it's actually reversible, though I don't haven't seen it happen, but theoretically it's reversible. But this is the blue juice. And so, wow, we discovered this, several people discovered this independently. Well, with the abjection, discovered it? Yes. You know, with the mausx and the Astex, the Mayans discovered this? Yes. This is very simple. You powder, you put the mushrooms in the water and it elutes into the water the next day and you end up with this potent blue psilocybin packed elixir. And so this also speaks that you know I [2:06:04] think people all over the world, when they are experimenting and they're inspired and they know this is a sacred substance, how do we preserve it, how do we protect it? Oh, you put honey in with it. Well, honey is the antibacterial. And in the 1516, the Beveregan Beer Act banned mushrooms. That's interesting. They banned mushrooms from beer because mushrooms are being added, along with henbane and other plants, to make these narcotic elixirs and you know, meads, honey beer. So I don't underestimate the creativity and innovation of any people living along enough in their ecosystem, interacting, experimenting, making mistakes, making successes, for thousands of years. For thousands of years. We should not be intellectually myopic, which I think is another problem with the hubris of science. [2:07:00] Well, it's also a problem with this whole drug schedule thing. Because when it's schedule one, even talking about it openly opens you to criticism and ridicule, especially if you've been involved in academia for decades, right? So you started your career and your mindset towards these substances at a time where it was very detrimental to your reputation to be pursuing these things? Absolutely. That's why as much criticism as Timothy Leary and Ron Doscats and even Andy Wile, they were all incredibly courageous. No one more courageous, however, than Maria Sabina, who opened up the Mass Effect tradition and also Valentino Wasen. Hardgordon Wasen's wife was a Russian physician who was also a mycologist. The difference and the similarity in wheel of debt or attitude to Maria Sabina and the Massive Techs and to Valentino Wasen who died in 1958, [2:08:01] but she grew up in Russia. She knew how to identify mushrooms. These are not people just taking Sultai mushrooms. They knew how to go out into the fields. And Valentino, Vityna Wastens, she knew the Russian names. They wrote a book, Mushroom's Russian History. It was going to be a cookbook, 500 recipes. And it became this great ethnomicological, you know, exploration. But these courageous women were not only medicine women, they were fueled by colleges who could go out into nature and find them. I have a DEA license now and I passed my background checks. I guess they have a listen to your podcast. I'm, yeah, well, no, I'm very serious about this. I had one also in the 70s and 80s. And my father at the end of his life asked me to trip with him on Solos Hive. I turned him down. Alexander Smith, who wrote a monograph [2:09:01] that you know, salositively, the father of American in my college. Well the greatest my college is ever who's published many new species of solace-eyed mushrooms. In 1979, 1978, and Asman Colorado, it's actually Snowmass, he asked me to trip with him on solace-eyed mushrooms. Here's like having your hero elder saying, I trust you, I want a journey, I've read all about it. Will you trip with me? Both of them asked me, and I asked, their wives the same question, will you journey with me and with him? And both other wives said no. And I said, I can't. I can't have this experience with you. In both cases, I was leaving, leaving the next day. What would I, I might, I'd abandon them, would they have this life-changed experience? I have all these questions, and I'm out there to talk [2:10:01] through it. And, and, and so I adopted the policy, and I'm very strict about this. Nature provides, I don't. I mean, I am very strict. I don't feel as ethical for me to give a suicide mushroom to somebody else. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist. I have my own deep personal religious freedoms. And I do believe that these are sacraments. And they are part of my own personal religion. I'll stand on that. I've published on that. I believe in that. But I have no right to give it to somebody else. And I think this is really important that we need to be adults about this. These are very potent medicines. And the rituals of the Mazatex and the Aztecs and the Mayans and so many first people and there's people, they had the structures set up. They're honed over the centuries to how to properly administer these sacraments. We, many of us from European descent, were orphans, were spiritual orphans have been cast from our religions, our religious roots, from my Germanic roots. I named my son, Azurus. [2:11:05] He's probably gonna listen to this. Hi, Azurus. It mislattened masculine singular for sky blue. And I named a species called Slasope, Azurusans, because it turns blue and also from my son. And when I named my son, Azurus, my family gave me a just tremendous criticism. How could you give this kid this name? And then when it's five years old, we're at our, my grandmother's house, and we're going through our family history. And our coat of arms were from the house of Azure. Oh, wow. And then we're from the house of Gilford, and within the house of, Gilford, the subhouse of Azure. And, um, I looked it up and we're 30 miles from, uh, my family's roots are 30 miles from Stonehenge. So September 22, the Druids have invited me to be in the center of Stonehenge for a ceremony. They are rediscovering, and they [2:12:00] maintain their view solaceive mushrooms throughout history. It's called re-inditonization with the Egyptians' alchemists that I've recently met. They know their ancestors. They believe it's spursly. They use psilocybin mushrooms in combination with the blue lotus. It's called re-inditonization, rediscovering your ancient roots of your practices. What is the psychoactive compound in the blue lotus? Very complex. A blue lotus is amazing. I've only been recently introduced to it. I've had some elitres made of it. It wakens up your receptors. It gives you this hyperstate of consciousness. It's not speedy. It's kind of an alertness phenomenon. And so does it come with heightened circular respiratory? I know the pharmacology other people can speak of because I'm you know again on stay in my land of my college. Could you know as the elevated heart rate? No. No, but with that shortness of brav nothing like that. Nothing like a stimulant. No, I I experienced super alertness. That's what I would say. It was like I was [2:13:02] super sensitive. So they're combining now these Egyptian alchemist I met, Slasemique events, golden mushroom, bruises blue with the blue lotus. The blue lotus opens the daytime, closes at night, you know, birth and death. And now with the druids, I say they've always used Slasemique mushrooms. And so there's in so many other people's now are re-indigenizing. You were going on about the what the blue lotus does though? The blue lotus in combination with the philosophy of events is in a lecture that was practiced for a very long time as evidence by the higher glyphs that we just saw. And what is in the blue lotus? Like what is the actual compound? I cannot tell you. Really? Yep. Interesting. Okay. Today the blue-lose flowers been used primarily as a sleep aid and anxiety reliever. However, at higher doses achieved by inhalation, users could experience euphoria and hallucinations. The psychoactive effects of the flower are attributed to two. How do you say that? A porphine? A porphine alkaloids. [2:14:02] I say that, aporphine. Aporphine, alkaloids. Apomorphine and noosefairine. Hmm, interesting. Oh, it's good for lactile dysfunction. Yeah. May help muscle control in those with conditions such as Parkinson's disease and a rectile dysfunction. It's dopamine agonist, that's interesting. So much like some of the dopamine agonists that have like weird psycho side effects You know, there's like pharmaceutical dope dopamine agonists like Reequip you know what that is. No, it's a it's a crazy case where guy won a lawsuit against Galaxos Smith Klein because he was on a dopamine agonist and it turned him into a gay sex and gambling addict. He was a heterosexual man who had Parkinson's, had wife and kids and it could not stop like picking guys up and random like chance encounters and he got raped. [2:15:02] He lost all of his money. He like gambled his entire life savings away, it was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and got off the medication and the symptoms all went away. And he realized that it was this dopamine agonist that he actually won in court, and not a lot of money, not a lot of money. That cost and effect sounds very complicated in the show. Yeah, the dopamine agonist thing that they're have like if you Google pharmaceutical dopamine agonist side effects. They're pretty well documented and one of them seems to be a lowering of inhibitions or a lack of control of inhibitions which would lead to like they think gambling problems You know, just people did just can't put it all on black. Let's go, spend that relat, like they just go crazy and they just want to gamble, which is very strange. Well, that seems like a critic creating of an obsessive compulsive disorder. You know, so. Something along those lines, but also like this guy was saying that he was completely heterosexual [2:16:02] until he started taking these dopamine agonists and then he wanted to have a lot of like random dangerous gay sex. I have been immersed into a group of psychiatrists and my heart goes out to him because it's such fuzzy science. It's just so complex and you know you become a medical doctor first and you can go on for two to four more years become a psychiatrist and it just seems like it's really it's really shows that the psychiatry is still at the infancy of its science. Well there's so many things like SSRIs and no showing it's not a chemical imbalance that's what the whole basis of it was about. What are the dopamine agonist known side effects? Because some of them are pretty crazy. Nausea-vomiting, arthrostatic hypotension, headache, dizziness, and cardiac arrhythmia among the most common side effects of dopamine agonist. These adverse effects are mostly dosage dependent. It's highly recommended to start these medications at low dosage to reduce the risk of orthostatic hypotension. [2:17:09] Delirium hallucinations, seizure coma, but some people have their Google re-equip lawsuit. It's like re-equip, re-equip lawsuit. Parkinson's patient wins lawsuit over gay sex addiction. Look at this. So I think this was in the UK. Click on one of those. Okay, Pfizer settles lawsuit tying sex and gambling addiction to dopamine meds. So this was Pfizer. This is a different one. This is a different lawsuit. There's more than one lawsuit. The confidential settlement with a hundred and seven two patients said to be for millions of dollars was approved by the judge in federal court in Australia. Financial review reports, although the payments were delayed until they were assessed by independent review Pfizer. Side effects of the drugs, they were taken [2:18:01] to treat Parkinson's disease or restless legs syndrome. Yeah. And so gay sex and gamble, causing them to gamble away their life savings or become obsessed with shopping or sex. And so it seems like impulse control. Sounds like lots of egg-ups to me. Yeah, it's a big issue. Imagine they could sell that in biggest. The occurred at least 10% of the patients. But they probably were under reported due to patients where ashamed to talk about what they had done. You could sell that in Vegas. The occurred at least 10% of the patients, but said they probably were under reported due to patients where ashamed to talk about what they had done. Wow. Interesting. So the one, okay, re-equip. Okay. FDA should require a black box warning on labels of dopamine agonist, a class that includes we equip from Galaxosmic line, UCB's new pro and mirrorplex from bonger angle-hime the german company was sued by a new york man some years back is had taken the drugs and turned them into a pathological gamble gambler who ruined him uh... as he gambled away three million dollars [2:19:03] wild yeah i would be just a word of caution when you read headline articles like this. There's probably a lot more behind the story. I'm sure. So I'm sure that covers. Well, I was also, there's probably a lot more, if you're talking about the difference between the blue lotus flower, some naturally occurring substance, probably also has a bunch of other things in with it as well. It's sort of like when they had Marron all, remember when they try to do synthetic THC and give it to people, it was terrible, you know, because they didn't want people smoking pot. Because there's a lot of things that come with it. Right. It's not just the individual compound, right? It's like all of the things inside of it, especially when it comes to cannabis. The other cannabinoids that work synergistically with THC. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think where the extraordinary time of re-evaluation, I hope that we have greater respect for diverse points of view. I think a lot of these observational studies and patient reporting should steer medicine. [2:20:00] I think the observational studies in general, popular databases for scientists to be able to look at, looking for signal, I think AI will be fantastic. Yeah, it's going to be a thing. Loose at it, you know, signals that we can't possibly see. Right. So I think there is a convergence, you know, of psychedelic science and artificial intelligence. But I hopefully is guided by a very high ethical standard where we are always, you know, trying to steer the course, you know, in a way that is judicious and does not get away from us. And that's the biggest concern about AI that I have. That's why we have to give Silsai to everybody involved in AI. We have to give Silsai to AI. I just don't know how to do it. Yeah, it could that be programmed in. I don't know how to do it. Yeah It could that be programmed in I don't know compassion psychedelic experiences Feeling of connectedness. What if the AI automatically knows all these things because it's already achieved some sort of state of enlightenment Just by virtue of not being attached to all the things that hold us back you burst ego [2:21:00] You know all the things that ruin humanity maybe it will automatically be enlightened because I'll be connected to those things But is AI singularity in and of itself? It's a diversified singularity is that are converging to a single You know a concept eventually as time rolls out. Well, that might be a part of what psychedelic plays in all of this That might be that might be our parachute part of what psychedelic plays in all of this that might be our parachute. That might be the one thing that can kind of help us make our way through this and keep some semblance of sanity. I just think that the advantage of psilocybin is anyone can grow in their home home. It's democratizes psychedelics. It's easy to do. It ties you back with nature. You know, I'm a libertarian and the government has no business, you know, crossing my threshold of my door. What I do with my family, what I do with my home, etc. That's my business. Especially when it comes to something that's not harming anyone. Right. And especially to something that like the LD50 is so high, [2:22:02] you'd have to have pounds and pounds of it to get sick and die. I think it's 38 pounds. Yeah, that's not. Which you'd die from dehydration of absorbing the mushrooms. So literally wouldn't be able to do it. You wouldn't be able to eat enough to kill you. Yeah. And I think this speaks to the freedom of consciousness. You know, it's a basic human civil right. We should all have a civil right for our own, our rights to our own consciousness. We also have to look at it in terms of the rights of individuals. Like an individual does not have the right to tell you what you can and can't do, that's not gonna harm someone else. That it's just wrong. It's wrong fundamentally for a person to have that kind of power over another person, someone doing something in the privacy of their own home where it's not harming other people, and it's not even dangerous to themselves. Maybe psychoactively, maybe psychoactively dangerous. Maybe someone who's very vulnerable, maybe someone who has schizophrenia, maybe someone who has already psychologically impaired, maybe yes, then. But the only way we find out about that is through studies. [2:23:01] The only way to do that is to legalize it. The only way to do that is to change the way people think about it. And I think what you spoke about with police officers, my experience with soldiers, with veterans that have had very positive and beneficial experiences and even people that are like near death, you know, they're in hospice care that have had very powerful. Well, there's a great organization called Roots to Thrive is a Canadian non-profit. They've taken, I think, 60 patients end of life, anxiety. Most of them stage four diagnoses a few months to live. They have eight caregivers, eight patients. They meet on Zoom. They get together. They prepare for this. They do high doses of psilsciven with the Canadian government approval. High to first nations, a health care facility, and a number of great people are involved with Rooster Thrive, I highly recommend them. And it makes me want to cheer up, is that in one of the sessions, one of the first sessions, [2:24:07] there are eight patients they get together and they prepare and lay lay down this common room. And when you do a high dose of psilocybin as you know the effects come on pretty quickly, 10 to 20 minutes, but an hour the two hours in you're you're peaking. And just as they were peaking, the first nation elders on the other side of the wall started drumming. And everybody started crying because they knew that they knew, you know, how important that was. And to have first nation support with people who are dying and the majority of those people come out of the experience, not fearing death, and they become counselors to their families, saying, it's okay I'm dying. And they change the whole relationship with leaving. And interestingly, and I just heard this number recently of the 58 or 60 people, only [2:25:05] four of them have died And they all had terminal illnesses going back over three years now So you think about wow mind over matter if you don't have this anguish this inflammatory pathway You now have optimism about life and you're meaning you're a caregiver you have purpose right then isn't your immune system up regulated It has to be. We know that emotionally depressed people do have a depressed immune systems. Well, people who have found a little lease on life and purpose, you know, it would augment their innate immunity. I've always wondered about that with COVID as well. The people that were terrified of COVID and once they got COVID, they were just overwhelmed with anxiety and fear and all that does is crush your immune system. And all the fear that was being propagated by the media, this constant death bell that was rang all over the media, just scared the shit out of people. And it probably weakened a lot of people's immune systems and probably cost a lot of lives. There's no doubt about it. I think basically spreading widespread panic, increasing anxiety, depressivity immune system. [2:26:06] Yeah, there's a lot of factors, right? There's there's companionship, love, friendship, happiness in your life, physical activity, there's only different mitigating factors that can alleviate some of your anxiety. And if you don't have those, all those things are going to compound and it is a cascading effect. Well, that's why again, I see life and death a life and disease health and disease has been a multi-factorial equation How many coefficient variables can you get on this side of the equation that on this side of the equation Results in a better life a healthier life a better attitude. I think psychedelics in a particular psilocybin is a very Major coefficient variable that can help tilt the balance. And moreover, it's just not a linear equation. It becomes a matrix of implications to everybody else around you and your community, your family, your community to the city, the nation, the world. It's that we need psilocybin now for societal benefit [2:27:03] more so than we have ever needed it. And it's time has come. So I applaud all the researchers who have struck out. And my discussions with law enforcement is really interesting. They want to put their energy work, they can have the most positive impact to protect the health of society and fentanyl syndicates are a high priority Individual use of civil cyber knows not and that's how it should be I mean we should we really grow up about this stuff and If there were There was a widespread legalization at the very least you could develop centers where people could safely take it. And they would be treated by counselors and you'd be have people who are experienced travelers, they're registered and know how to deal with people and handle people. And we could do it in like a modern, shamanic setting. And that can be done. Not that I love lawyers, but one of the best lawyer strategies I've ever seen in my life [2:28:04] is the decriminalization of solid cyber and psychedelics to the lowest priority of law enforcement. So it is a violation of the officer's duty, their oath to use public funds to prosecuting people for psychedelics. So it is at the level of J-walking, right? It's basically, it's the lowest priority of law enforcement, which means that the law enforcement officer tries to bring a case forward. It is a malpractice of their ethical duty to perform their job, to waste the court and the public's money focusing on psychedelic as it should be. It should be. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be legal. We should get an understanding of it and how many people it could benefit. I think decriminalization is the lowest hanging fruit in this long walk towards legalization. [2:29:00] Decriminalization I think is, I think it should be legal. I mean, I want to make sure everyone knows that but i think from a practical point of view lowering the penalties and reducing it as of at the lowest priority of law enforcement what did you think about california's decision to not legalize it or not decriminalize it and allow it for uh... they wanted to allow it for therapeutic use but but they wanted to set thresholds first. They said no thresholds were established, no protocol or program was established. And if they would reconsider if that was done. Well, right now my understanding is that the council physicians have blocked all research on psilocybin and psychedelics in California. So total blockhead. They will not allow any research. There's a governing board for schedule one substances in California, total blockade. They will not allow any research. There's a governing board for schedule one substances in California, which most states don't have. And that governing board is a stop-go board for progress of research on schedule ones. And they have dictated essentially no research [2:30:02] on psychedelics in California. Is that a finding issue? No, I think it'sics in developing issue. No, I think it's a political science issue. You get physicians or other people who are not experiencing these substances, making decisions about these substances, ill informed decisions from inexperienced people for the most part. And so they have a distorted perception of what these things do, and they don't feel that there's any value in studies. It's like somebody who's never flown an airplane, who then thinks they know how to fly an airplane, telling you, giving you advice on how, why you should not fly an airplane, because they're just inexperience, or out of their, out of their kind of experiences. So, that's not good, especially for progressive state, or supposedly progressive state. Well the initiative, the public ballot initiatives, 70, 80 percent in Canada recently, a survey, 80 percent of the citizens of Canada want psychedelics approved for therapeutic use and decriminalized, 80 percent. So when the states that have ballots, this is how these these these big changes are occurring. And then [2:31:06] citizens paid with public funds, you know, public officers, public employees, then have to fall over the will of the people. And so I think the ballot initiatives is gets politicians out of the hot seat. They have to say, oh, we have to fall over the will of the people. I did not stick my neck out on that It's the ballot initiative the people have spoke so I think there's the people's revolution movement So I think this is a revolution for the freedom of consciousness of other grounds falling that's occurring not the United States and Canada but all over the world It's so desperately needed well said Paul Stammer's you're the fucking man. I appreciate you very much. Thank you very much for being here It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Your company that you sell these wonderful mushrooms out is called hostdefense. It's funguy.com. You get that. And thank you for everything you do, my friend. I really, really appreciate it. I want to thank you, Joe, and I want to thank you for having this opportunity. And when I thank all the JRE listeners for contributing to these observational studies because you can help [2:32:05] inform scientists to make good decisions and create validated studies that help lead the medical science community forward. We need all of you, you know, so here here, get out of preeks. All right, thank you. Thank you, bye. Take care. Thanks for watching!