JRE MMA Show #148 with Bernard Hopkins

What's up? Pleasure to meet you, man. I've been a gigantic fan of yours for a long time, so it's a real pleasure. That's what I've been hearing, Joe, but I'm also become a fan in the last couple of years before you came to Austin. I go out to LA a lot to do boxing, promoting, and West Coast, East Coast with our Golden Boy promotion. I'm a partner in Oscar Delahoya, so good to be met, and good to meet you also. What is it like transitioning from being a fighter to being a promoter? Because Oscar, yourself, Floyd, only a few fighters have managed to do that successfully like you have. Well, first of all, it's not just walking into it. I sort of got groomed in my career based on, I'll say, the last eight, nine years of my 30-year career. I took on the ownership and responsibility of making the last decisions. I hired people that can give me the right information. Not a lot, but just a few people that can give me the right information about this particular fight. For instance, Kelly Pavlik in Atlantic City, Oscar Delahoya fight in 06, 06, 07. And I groomed myself for this moment to be ever to be independent, but also learn the business. And let me tell you, it is difficult. It's difficult not throwing a job per se, but it's difficult in the business, in the structure of the business of boxing. The small family in boxing, whether they're here, they're in a promotional setting or a commissioning setting, they would definitely try to discourage you by any means necessary. Yeah, I can imagine, especially yourself, because you had had so many issues with promoters over the years, and you were so vocal about it, unlike a lot of other fighters. Yeah, I mean, because I was, one, one forced to do it, to fight back. And then second, I looked at it as, I didn't really have a choice, even though I could have laid down, or got down to their demands. But I understood one thing. My instincts of survival, but also not just being in the game, I wanted different for myself. And I had one bad experience, well, I had a couple of bad experiences, but I had one, the first bad experience I had early in my career. And I wound up getting out of that deal with Butch Lewis. And I can mention names, not because he's deceased, but I can mention it because I wound up being actually sued based on keeping me in check. But I fired back, and I wound up counter-punching, and got out of that situation, and spoke boldly about it, and moved on to try to wake others up. Not actually preach, but just bring it up about my situation. If anybody recognized and experienced it, any fighter or anybody else, they can grab some knowledge. But that was the start of it. That was the start of it. My first professional fight, not first, but my first championship fight was Roy Jones Jr. And that fight was a parody fight. It was a split, 1.4 split between me and Roy Jones. I had the contract, I kept all the stuff even to the day. I can go back and reflect and bring not only contact for what I'm speaking about, but I kept it because I paid for it. It's called litigation. And so I said to myself, how can it be a number? 750, 725 split, parody, the word parody. And I get 80,000 when it's all said and done. Now, remind you, I'm fresh out of the penitentiary. 88, 89, 90, 90, I rebooted my career after, you know, losing my first fight. Didn't box for 15 months. So now we're in the, what, the early 90s. And I rebooted myself back into reaching a goal that I eventually reached. But the business part, it had me thinking in between those moments of clamming the ladder of being a contender. That this is more than just going on a ring and winning and not winning. This was something that I had to learn quick on the job learning. There's a lot of shenanigans in boxing. Yes. You got a sport, you got a sport that's unregulated, right? Whether that means anything to people or not, but there's no checks and balances there. The people that set the rules break the rules. I'm gonna say that again. The people that set the rules break the rules. I mean, you know, where can you... Is that that thing that they said was gonna go off? Yeah, I figured that. This is the... This is happening. Or this is dead cell phones and all that. Just make sure it's not a real problem. Okay. National test. I just got my... This is a national test. Okay, all right. See, I was thinking maybe again that was somebody, you know, through boxing, they know it's ready to come out. They took the business, you know, these people, man. You know, you gotta understand that it's possible. But the possibility of getting ousted, blackballed, in boxing, such a small circle of separate entities that will come together to oust that enemy, to oust that... So you gotta understand the bullseye is still on my back in certain reasons because now, even though I'm in a different position of not only power, but for my career, what I stood up for is not like the past. So as a promoter today, and Oscar Delahoyo go to more promotion, the day we signed, the day we became partners, we don't become those who we despise. Now that's deep. That was 20 something years ago. You can find that anywhere out there in social media. That's there. We suited up and booted with contracts after signing. And that was one of the statements that I continue to bring up 20 plus years later and be consistent about it. Now that doesn't mean that every fighter's gonna agree to the business side that you have to represent as a promoter. But one thing for sure, if your talent brings what you asking and your representation, whether they name themselves which boxing does, manager, consultant, advisor, I mean, I just named three entities that's sucking the blood out of the ignorance of the lack of knowledge of especially young ones and the ones that don't wanna learn. I'm not a savior. I'm not running trying to save anyone. But trying to understand my job and my role before my lights go out is that I love the sweet science. But I also understand that boxing gave me a way not to be rotten in the penitentiary or in the graveyard. That's what boxing did for me. It gave me that opportunity that I had to walk the walk eventually, absolutely. That I had to make sure that even though things can happen where you come up short in a square circle, that I don't give up. And so having that mentality and being consistent over the years and still be able to talk in 2023, still know my name, my social security, all the numbers that matters, all the things that attach to me is a blessing. I'm not bragging. I'm different. Let them argue, let them on the side, whoever, fans or no fans. One thing for sure, most will agree that I'm different. Whatever that difference is, I take it. But I'm different. And keeping the course of being at, as time move on, fast approaching 59 January 15th, 1965. I'm knocking on the door, 60. You look fucking great. Well, duck and helps. That's one thing. Hands up. Come on, man. Come on, one thing for sure. If you duck more than you take, you can be able to express yourself as time go on and you better be something worthy to your family. Now, you're gonna be worthy if you're there, but that's not fun to me. I wanna be there like I am now. I got a 12 year old son, Bernard, three generations with him. So I wanna be there and he's play football. Don't like boxing. Threw gloves at him, I guess when he was eight months, he throw him back. So my whole thing is like, not save or not preach as I been accused of a couple of times, but it just in me, the spirits in me, the Muhammad Ali spirits is in me. January 17th, January 15th. I know that I'm here for more than a purpose, that I took that road, I came through that road, some things in my life that I felt that it was needed, that I had to do, I had to be that, because that was that mindset. Once again, not change your course on the conversation. Once I understood my value, and boy, you can appreciate this, when I understood my value in that penitentiary at 17, when I got certified at 17, five to 15, subtract five out of 15 and stay prison, that leaves you the back time, the walk off, call parole. They had a boxing gym there, and all of the Pennsylvania prisons, which was 30 plus, had boxing in the penitentiary, that was part of baseball, flag football, handball on the wall, that spark. That flame came back from little short amateur career I had, that's how I built my reputation up in my neighborhood. I always fight, fight in the streets, fighting in school. How old were you when you first boxed as an amateur? Like when did you first walk into the gym? Nine years old, my uncle took me to the gym, my mother's brother, because my father had a brother that boxed too, and they all was my weight, well I was all their weight when I started, middle weight. My uncle was on both sides of the tree, mother and father, boxed that middle weight in the 60s, 70s, early 70s. So it was in my DNA, can't help myself, it's who I am and who I became, but I got back to it when I went to the penitentiary. So when you were an amateur, were you taking it seriously or were you? No, I wasn't taking it seriously. You weren't fully committed. I was eating everything that everybody else was eating at that age in the neighborhood and what was there. I mean, I remember fighting and getting a trophy about this big, it's always the same stance, right? Plastic trophy, but to me that was like a gold medal. They got the trophy shown to everybody in the neighborhood and the elementary school I was at. And then they take you to, I don't wanna get no free commercials, but they take you to this, still around, to get a hamburger, french fries, and you probably know, take it in, we happy. That was it. Amateur program, but it was like the pow, right? I don't know if they have it here in Texas, the P.A.L., Call of Peace Athletic League. It's big over there in East Coast. So the pow league was structured to get young black urban men that's on a corner or young boys, right, to go to pow. Anybody can go there, but mostly it was in our neighborhood. They would come to the gym and you can sign up for amateur boxing. You could be an Olympic gold medal. You can do this and do that. But I had family members. I was in my DNA. Once I was taken to the gym by Artie McCloud, we call him Artie, but it was Arthur McCloud, called him Moose, my mother's brother, middle weight, badass, look him up, Artie McCloud. The streets took his career, obviously based on what, lifestyle. The streets of Philadelphia, the blue collar town worker. Philadelphia can make you or break you when it comes to making it out of there, right? Not only sports, any entertainer, any success that you might have on your back in the community. And again, Philadelphia is loved there, but a lot of us don't make it out even though the talent was better than mine. Just strong, right? The trap of the streets. The trap of the streets, but they're also what you're used to doing and what you're used to thinking. Listen, until I traveled through boxing, tell you how much boxing did for me, to travel around the world multiple times, meet multiple people from every class of life that I believe, I'm pretty sure it's people I haven't met, but from here to there to status of power or influencers. I say, man, the world ain't just no Philly. The world is not just Raymond Rosen projects. So I start understanding now, like even sitting there watching at that time, how the fork and the spoon and the butter knife is on one side of the table. And I'm looking at this guy's taking a nap and putting on the floor. I think he's putting on his lap. I mean, this might sound ignorant, but you gotta understand from that mindset of what I'm saying, not understand my experience because some haven't, but I start paying attention. That was the key. Just like in the boxing business, I start paying attention. Then once I got to the point where I had a voice means I had to do something in boxing. Nobody cares if you consider it nobody, 10 in one, cause I lost my first fight. Atlantic city to Clinton Mitchell. That was out for nine months out of penitentiary. I wanted to get right back in the ring before I grabbed a kilo of cocaine like everybody was selling in the eighties and nineties. That was the plan? I had a choice to do one or the other. Right. Listen, anybody on West Coast and East Coast know the 80 and the 90 era, right? The 80 and 90 era in urban city was get down or lay down. Are you in or you out? That's all across the board. And growing up being the guy named heads. Yeah, my nickname. That was heads. Street named heads, yeah. When you see me coming, I had the same energy. I had the same discipline. And it's gonna sound weird. The same discipline that people might think they know me over the years. Fans, non-fans and people that do know me is the same discipline I had in a negative way. That's really, again, not trying to paint my, the work is there. I'm pretty sure if they're going to archives of any police district or whatever, or archives in City Hall down in Philadelphia, they can, or Harrisburg. Them records never go away. They think they might have to bring them up one day, but I won't let it happen, not on my watch. So I took all that experience and it seemed like a long time ago, but it felt like to me, I lived three different times on this earth. And I ain't even bring up the two stabbings that I wear to scar today from the back and one underneath my left chest so there's a lot of times, never been shot, that I could have done something, be the lamb or be the wolf. And I recognize the be the wolf is much better than being a lamb. That the person I took stuff from, that I went up and looked through and while they looking at me, could have had a gun and blew my brains out, which I've lost a brother, a year under me, Michael. I'm 58, he been 57. His birthday was January 29th, 1966, my January 15th, 1965. Got an older sister, she's only a year older. February 14th, 1964. My mother been in labor for three years in a row. Wow. With six kids, when it was all said and done, my mother raised six kids, but I was raised, I was like raising three, maybe four. If you ask her if she was here, God rest her soul. But she got a chance, and thank you for letting me ramble on. She got a chance to see in person, my talents that she always knew I had since I was an angry bad boy in elementary school, because she'd been up there a lot of times, teachers meetings. She got a chance to see me beat Felix Trinidad, 9-11 in New York City, just had an anniversary months ago. Well, last month. She got a chance to fly in the air for the first time, whether it's commercial or jet, both. She got a chance to visit places that she didn't have any dream of doing it. I gave that tour, and she passed in 50, I believe 59, 58, I lost maybe half a year, but my mother passed before 60, she was young. Here I feel great, knocking on 59, she was already gone. But every time I've done something, and she know I did it, never even asked me, she showed up. Whether it's a visit, whether it's $10 on the books, she never gave up on me, she never turned her back, even though she always threatened me with the, this is the last time. Now she might have waited two or three days, but eventually she came, and did all she can, whether it's taking a second or third mortgage out on the house to bail me out, with a three or $400 or $1,000 bail bondsman. Come on, y'all. Until it's over, what I mean by that is, the breath in your body, then it's never really over. Now you let somebody tell you it's over. If you let them plan your funeral, based on what you can and cannot do, I'm sitting here in front of Joe Rogan, how many people told you it's nuts? To do what came, yeah, there's a question, what came to fruition in your life? I'm pretty sure you had a lot of smart so-called, and some of them were. They didn't see what I seen, they didn't see what you seen. Question on both sides. I know I'm a testimony to it, and I'm pretty sure, because I've done some research, I'll always like to know who I'm talking to, once I got some knowledge of who I am, and who I need to be affiliated with, business or non-business. It just gives me an upper hand to know what I'm facing or what I'm not facing. I'm always in a fight mode, but I don't have to fight. It's here, and then it's the physical. The Art of War, Sun Tzu. I challenge everybody to get one of those teaching books and go through it every now and then. The Art of War has always been a guideline for me, when I say always, most of my adult career, I say from 23 to now. I started pro at 25. When I told you how people try to write your own destiny, where you going, to the grave or to success, because you said it, I gave them the middle finger. I gave them the middle finger, not physically, I gave them the middle finger in action, in deeds, which holds a lot more weight. It does hold a lot more weight. And I wanted to let them know that. So when you got to prison at 17? Yes, certification. Did you get serious about boxing then? No. Was that like your outlet? No, the first year I ran around the jail, what I mean run around the jail, I was basically an inmate, while 41, 45. I basically, I knew people, I didn't know certain people, and you literally, you team up with the people you know, in your neighborhood. That's important. That's important to have what? Back up. Right? You must have that, right? The agents was there, the Caucasians was there, the Muslims was there, the Christians was there, everybody had sets. So you need that. Now, once you get there, somebody know you, and somebody would know why you're there, and what you're there for. Now, you could say you're there for one thing, but the same people that checks you in, basically with the guard watching over them, know your whole case. They basically do the work, the inmates, not an attendee lifers, who's been there and they moved up in the ranks because of their clean record in the institution, and they'll look at, oh, he say you got a robbery, but he got a rape. He's saying he got a homicide, but he got autofest. So the credibility, crazies might sound, the credibility of what you there for, lays not all said and done, but it lays a foundation, how they approach you. And, yo, listen, even the county, even the county before you get state time, you gotta be in the county, you go back and forth to court, and over 12 months is considered state time. One and a half to five state time, that's that half that got you to state. It's a different ballgame at greater force state penitentiary. Maximum security. It's a different ballgame. Knowing somebody, whether they know your uncles or my dad, Bernard Senior, or anybody else in neighborhood, I know your father, I remember he used to fight in the projects. Okay, do you really, like, is this scholar really legit? You gotta find that out whenever. You ain't gonna find out there, you gotta find out later. These are the, and it could be legit, but these are the things that I've learned, and most of them, the stuff that I know, that in time it will help me once I got out and once I've reached certain level in life, that I need to know certain things, and I got the schooling in that situation penitentiary, because to me, I'm in a penitentiary and society just don't have a wall. I don't have a wall here, and when I'm pointing here, I mean mentally, and I don't have a wall physically where I can see it, but I know for a fact that being in this position, that I've been in for 28 years, this rounded off three decades based on the sweet science in the ring. When I started and when I retired, six, seven years ago, as I witness and as I experience, that first half of that first part of life that I just said I felt like I lived three, two or three lives, it's helping me now, because when you're in a position where people, they can go on the internet and think they can find out how much you're worth, which you're not worth, then your CPA, your certified accountant know who you are, that's your DNA when it comes to business, especially if you got a good one, the right one. So you get approached with all kinds of agendas, and also you get the ones, sometimes you get the spirit to come in people that comes thinking that, you know, no matter how you sound and all that, I'm not trying to sound smart, how you sound smart, what that mean? Certain words you say, tell me the definition of it. Boxing always will have a stigma, and I hate to say it, but it's true, 90% of it, we trust as fighter too many people that say that they are who they are, and we give them a pass that they are what they say they are. Because of that experience that I just broke down on you just now, it prepared me without having any knowledge at will until I recognized it, being awareness, having awareness. If I didn't have that experience that I just spoke about, 20 plus minutes, I would be swallowed up like most of them. I hear the Tyson stories even when he was on the show, been around him, foot on an undercar many times in Vegas at the MGM, no, Mandalay Bay. MGM weren't even there when I fought an undercar. And I hear in a lot of the names, and I say to myself, they say game recognize game, how you gonna kinda ex-convict. Don't you know I had to talk to get off the block. I am not going to where I say I'm going, I just wanna get off the block, man if I get off the block based on that guard letting me off because I say I'm going somewhere that I'm not really going, you build up a skill setting on how to deal with people that you need to deal with. The danger come in is when you do it to everybody. The benefits of it when you in front of somebody that you know is full of shit, that you know is looking right at you lying, and you saying to yourself, how long is conversation going to take to be over? But being in a position that I put myself through, nobody gave me anything. I have to have patience even though I don't have to or I don't want to at that moment. Because society of what you done, it becomes such great entertainment and historic. You get the stamp that you celebrity and you biggin' in God. I'm a believer. I don't shy, I don't push it on nobody, I don't bring it up. Just to bring it up in a conversation to say would I agree to disagree? So I believe in checks and balances. I believe in all these things that deal with my situation, to balance out things that need to be balanced. That keeps me on point to know who I am. A lot of things I won't forget and a lot of things I will. On purpose. On purpose. So I've realized one thing, I realized this. All I do now is being written or gonna be written down as I go. But when it's over, that story no longer be written by me. It be written by somebody else. I don't want that. No, you know what I want? Why I have this time to write it myself and have that awareness to keep me not just in check but mindful that every step I make, every accomplishment, every failure, every obstacle, every challenge, whatever it is, I must stand 10 toes down on it at all times. That shows again the consistency of Bernard Hopkins Jr. Because anybody that understands and know or follow or know anything about me, because most people don't have the patience to do research, they want somebody to tell them who Joe Rogan is. They want somebody to tell them most people who Bernard Hopkins is. I learned not to be in that world of thinking. I learned to do my due diligence before I stepped up to my opponent or adversary or any other person that breathed the same air of life that I breathe. So did you learn this focus and determination and discipline? Did you learn this because of prison? Because you wanted to make sure this never happened to you again? Absolutely. So that experience when you were 17, being locked up, that was, even though it was a horrible situation, pivotal to your world. What do you mean horrible situation? Being in prison. No, it wasn't. It wasn't horrible. No. How so? Because most of my friends I said was there. Second, I wanted to get out. Obviously when I got caught, when you get caught by the police or you get locked up, obviously you try and do everything to get out. Whether you give an alias name, whether you try to, I didn't do it. But when I got there and I seen that it wasn't, like it's promoted on TV per se, case in point. I had more friends there than I had in the neighborhood that's locked up. Of course they glad to see you because you're locked up with them. The mindset, Joe, when you're there, you're not thinking, you got people that's for good reasons looking out for you. Which means I got this, you need this, you got this, you got a stinger, you can heat some hot water up and eat some soup, whatever. You learn to survive in that situation. Because I don't believe, and I said this in multiple interviews, multiple interviews. I did a lot of expressing myself over the 28 years of boxing, trust me. It's not hard to find my voice. I understand, well I got to understand that without that experience, I wouldn't be here having this conversation with you or anyone else before you. Let alone the Hall of Fame. Let alone today the oldest athlete. Yeah, I got Brady a couple of years. Then when a major world title surpassing George Foreman. Yeah, you were world class into your 50s. There's only a couple of guys like that. I was defending my title with 25, 30 year olds in my 40s. Well I remember when they wrote you off before the Kelly Pavlik fight. I wrote a blog on my website about that fight because I was so blown away. Because I remember leading into that fight, everybody wrote you off first of all in the Felix Trinidad fight. They thought you were too old then. 35. 35, correct. They thought you were over the hill. Felix Trinidad is this young, incredible fighter. There's so much emotions involved. When you went to Puerto Rico and threw the flag on the ground, everybody's chasing you. I mean you sold the shit out of that fight. It was wild. But it went to sell. I know but it did. But it just happened. It did. It did but it sold like crazy and they were riding you off. And you put on a master class. I remember that fight. I remember that fight like it was yesterday. Just had the anniversary last month. Whoo. So I was always a big fan. And I was a big fan also of the fact that you were standing up to the promoters. Because I remember the people, like the HBO boxing people, they didn't like it. They didn't like when you talked about all that stuff. They thought you're wasting their time. But you had an important message. And so people were kind of looking to write you off. So by the time you fought Felix Trinidad, it was one of those crossroads fights. Where many people thought, Felix Trinidad is gonna become an all time great. Bernard Hopkins is 35. This would be a good win for Felix Trinidad. And you just fucking boxed masterfully. It was a beautiful fight. It was a beautiful fight because it showed all the things I love about your style. First of all, the intelligence, the defensive responsibility. You never put yourself in bad positions. Never. Your defense was always tight as Fort Knox. And you start picking them apart. And I remember watching going, oh shit. Oh shit. It was just one of those fights where it was just so exciting. It was so, because you know, even though I was a fan of yours, and I was a fan of Felix Trinidad as well. It was watching it happen. And when you watch it something special. And that's the thing that athletics does for us. And particularly fighting because it's so raw. What it does to us is it shows us the potential that human beings have beyond what we expect. You did that with Felix Trinidad. And you were in your 40s when you fought Kelly, right? How have we done that multiple times in my career? Kelly Pavlik, I'd say 44, 45. Which is another one. I wrote, that's when I wrote a blog about it. Like, do you understand how crazy this is? They predicted I get knocked out on this one. This one, and I'm saying that I was after that. That was after the Jermaine Taylor fight, right? Yes. So people thought, oh my God, this kid. I'm glad you said that. Stop right there. Yes. The two Jermaine Taylor fights, right? Now I accept my losses, but those two, not losing sleep in 2023 over it. But I met a regret the lie. What I mean by that is, that Jermaine Taylor heist. Luther Beller used to work for HBO, started Luther Bell Entertainment. So he had Jermaine Taylor under the entertainment of Luther Beller. So they wanted to use Jermaine Taylor to get me out of boxing because of, I've generated a lot of enemies. They've been my biggest supporters being my enemies. To not go to fall asleep at the will. Or to underestimate anybody that comes in front of me, whether they worthy or not. Number one contender, number one, two contender. That's another politics story that sometimes they pit people there just because of they can put people there. Jermaine Taylor fight, spit decision, win to Jermaine Taylor. The second fight, which I believe was just as close to the first fight. So Jermaine Taylor went 24 rounds with Bernard Hopkins, correct? Lost his mind, haven't been right since. They feed him, they, the powers to be. Want the fans to believe the lie, which it was a lot of rumbling about who won that first fight. A spit decision, the champion doesn't get the spit decision and not a favor, but R.D. Jermaine Taylor. But three or four days in boxing, it goes away, who cares? We fight the second fight because as a champion I can put in a contract, hey, Spence and Crawford. Crawford wants to exercise that clause, correct. So we got that second fight, decision loss. They think it's gonna make a little better not a split decision, a decision, okay. They wanted me to pack up and run. Basically get the fuck out of here, we got you. They fed him the Kelly Pavlik because they wanted the fans. They wanted you at that time, but you a little smarter. Not patronizing, being, keeping the 100. They put Kelly Pavlik in there with Jermaine Taylor and Kelly Pavlik did what? Knocks him out after avoiding the knockout himself, correct. Yeah, real close to going out, yeah. So now they said, hey, they wanna clean up the mess. Depending around this game, 30 side, Joe, trust me on this one. They wanna clean up the mess. They still getting, they getting hammered with the fight with me and Jermaine. Nanny Permaner with Kelly thought he was gonna walk him over, Kelly stops him. We're gonna now try to make things up on it back in now. We gotta still make that thing up with Bernard Hopkins because Tom is not gonna bury it because Bernard got a big mouth and Bernard's gonna keep talking. So let's pick Kelly Pavlik, hold up. Let's pick Kelly Pavlik in there with him. In Atlantic City, Joe, he's gonna get Bernard, this is the first time Larry Merchant, who I had a lot of fun beating him up on the mic. Hey, this is the first time we might just see Bernard get, he gonna get knocked out this fight because they wanted you to think that the Jermaine Taylor fight. Some of my said earlier, they wanted you to believe the lie. They gotta promote the lie. And hopefully they look like a genius when it happens. Yeah. One of my best performance, not just in the ring, but one of my best performance for who I am, how I wouldn't let them write my death warrant or my exit warrant or who I am. And see the thing is, they know who I am. Oh, your enemy know who you are, that's why they threaten by that. They seen you coming, Joe, a long time ago. But, it's a time that comes and goes when they know they can't stop you. Right now, at 2023, right now, fast approaching 2024, and I'm sitting up there having a conversation, articulating everything I said and know what I'm saying, dates and time, they didn't expect that. They didn't expect that. They expect a voice recorder, when we sitting up here like that movie Bernie, dead, but alive, I'm here bigger than just who I became. I'ma say that again. Yeah. I'm here, this when it comes, not overly spiritual, but this what I believe. I'm here to prove to me, can't speak for anybody else, that the historic chapter is the second layer of foundation which is to come that they better be aware of, that they better be aware of. Because now, that statement brings me to this conversation that need to be said, and this is the best platform to spill it out on. The boxing game, the business of boxing has to be met with a personality and a discipline, no matter what the wind is blowing, which way it is blowing, that I'm not gonna give up. And that's what the threat is, and that's what the fear is, and that's not fair me personally. It's fair what I know and what I can do and my consistency to bring the people together, whether the ones that really mean it, the good politician, the people that's in the game of boxing, some commissioners, not all, to understand that we need checks and balances in this business to the least that have law. There to, as a structure to honor and go by. And if there's any violation like anything else, you get test ties for it. You gotta pay, you gotta get punished in so many ways to do it. So boxing, like any other sport in America, is the only sport that's not regulated by any entity other than itself. Hmm. You know, Joe, I used to always say to myself back then, there's so many, when they hear this, they're gonna be, oh my God. There's so many non-active, non-active, active, excuse me, lawyers in boxing. There's a lot of lawyers or can-be lawyers. They went to law school, they got the law license, but they don't practice. But they have knowledge of what they can do and what they can't do. Do you understand what I'm saying? So already, most of us are at a disadvantage, not at an advantage to know to do's and don'ts. Right, whether or not you get them from. So yes, yes, whether or not we're getting fucked. And most of the time, you're getting fucked. 99.9% you're getting fucked. When you were saying that the Roy Jones Jr. fight, there was a 1.4 split and you made 750 or whatever it was. After all that, you only brought home 80? Yeah. How's that possible? I had a contract, again, this was the ignorance coming, lack of knowledge. I had a contract with a management team that sold me out with the promoter. And the promoter, again, Butch Lewis, God rest his soul. He somehow convinced my managers at that time, a rise in boxing, that he can do better for them in the long term, fighters come and go. Managers and advisors stay around, whatever name they put themselves under. And so I had a 60-40, when I said ignorance early, I had a 60-40 manager contract. I have it to the day framed in my office. That's pretty crazy. 60-40 manager contract. I kept that contract, I framed it. So these things, because it shows how far I evolved. What's a standard contract? What's a fair contract? Would you negotiate? What is a good professional get? In boxing? Yeah, like Jermell Charlo for the Canelo fight. I'll say a manager shouldn't get no more, no more than 15% at that level of Charlo. 10% most of the time, but no more than 15, because he might be doing other stuff, and he might got investments in you leading up to that moment. Leading up to that moment, he had you round on Olympics, or he had you straight up fighting at a club fight, and you built yourself up to a contender, and then you're a championship. So I would say no more than 15%. And a lot of feedback and a lot of response gonna be really on that point that I just said when it comes to numbers. No more than 25, 25, 30. You got advisors right now, they call themselves advisors working as a promoter, which means that part of the change of boxing, part of the fight that I know there's gonna be a rumble going into the next generations, and we in that golden boy promotion. Top ranked by a brand, been around 50 plus years, just as long as Don King, right? Time is very, very short and limited, right? Not saying it won't go out of business, but the brand is there, but the energy and the strength, it's a new game now. It's a new world order, Curtis Mayfield, right? I'm an old school guy, Curtis Mayfield, new world order, right, it's happening now in certain situations, and it's gonna happen in boxing. Everything is being flipped and turned around, the survival surviving and the dead dies. Boxing has no guidelines on which you can do how much you can take other than the commissions, not all, but most of them, is governing the rules that they set, and that's where the problem come. The manager, job is to manage and look out by enemies necessary for the fighter. The promoter promotes the event, get sponsors, get the money, get the support, and he and the manager go to the table and they have a conversation about what is there, the minimum, canola 30 million, 25 million the other night. That was negotiated by a consultant that's really a promoter hiding in the closet. Mm, hmm, hmm. Boxing, it's a great sport. The business red light district, any red light district that I know of is not a good place to be if you're gonna be preaching at church on Sunday. Well, boxing has always been controlled by crime figures, mob, crooked lawyers. But that was then. Now, it's a different time and way to do it. Those days with the Himmeloop underneath the table, nah, that been stopped. The way it's being done now is based on favoritism, who they want in, who they want out. When it comes to who they want out, when it comes to who they can exploit, who they can make more money with, and who they can and cannot influence. How deep does it go? How does it be as far as judges? Because there's been some fights where Timothy Bradley versus Manny Pacquiao, where the decision gets announced and everybody just goes, what? There's a few of those decisions where people go, what is the line, what's the betting line? Who's financially tied to this? Who's the promotion that's tied to this? I get your recent one, Luma Chico, Luma Chico. Yes, Devin Handley. Come on, yo. They answer that question. It's who they want to win and move to the next level because that's where they can make the most money. And that's where they have the most control. Hello. So this is something that you really have to be a Harvard graduate to understand. This is like in your face, it's like, so what? I'm taking it to the point that deep. I know y'all see Hovah-Nad, you know, this is South of Box, this is boxing, no. What do you mean this is boxing? You would hear reporters that been around just as long as the promoters, right? Because they can get a free meal at the press conference or they can get somewhere, they got their little perks, right? They can get a little free credential wearing around your neck and then sell his soul. Yeah. So when you're in that environment that's so tight, when it comes to the community of it, they can smell your fart. You like that, right? It's crazy. I mean, it's that serious. And I'm saying to, you know, my small circle, it's like, yo, you telling me that this judge, along with the other two judges, right? It's three ringside, it's three judges, right? Six eyes, six eyeballs that's watching this fight. Nobody's drooling from the mouth, right? Nobody got an oxygen tank, right? It's judging. So we assume that the commission of that state, Vegas, here, there, whatever, LA, whatever, they assign these judges, they screen these judges. Did anybody do a background check and see if anybody mortgages late or car payments are late? Right. Eight, nine months due? Like we need to understand the qualifications of being a judge because lives of careers is at stake at that high level where not only you've taken something from that particular fighter, but his family is wrapped up in that too. They don't look at that. Right. They don't care. And so when it happens every now and then and not every 10, 15, 20 years, whether it makes it right or not, this is a consistency. And also from the previous decades and moments in history, boxing still has that question. Is boxing rigged before it goes down? Is boxing controlled? By the underworld or the new underworld or the world of influence or the world of power or the world who they want to make more money off of. It's about who they can make more money off of. And look, I'm not gonna say I understand because if I say I understand, then I feel that I am not gonna do nothing about it. Then I feel I'm part of the problem because a lot of guys and a lot of people in boxing business know when I'm talking is genuine and is straight up the truth. But they would never do what I'm doing right now. They just accept it. Well. Or they just deal with it. They don't talk out about it. They keep their mouths shut. Keep their mouths shut. And not all, but there's some have things to lose. Payday. Payday. So, or positions of where they at or what they do. They don't wanna lose whatever it is, big or small to you, to them. Is there God or next to it? That's how deep that is. I witnessed it. I'm there in the front row. And I'm not having no nonsense. And the thing of not having that is one thing of saying it. Joe, I don't need a job from them to pay my bills. I don't need them to do something for me based on a threat or based of silence you. See, that's the power I was talking about early. Not the other power. Some could be great. Some can be not great. But the power of doofus self and the power of being consistent and got there in spite of the black balling, the never giving up as you witnessed with the Tito fight. That was beginning of their demise who I became today in 2023. And he still can talk and speak. And he hadn't forgotten nothing only if he chose to. That's when I say power. Yeah. But that's your discipline. That's your drive. And that's so extraordinary that you were able to maintain that. The Kelly Pavak fight again, you're 44 in that fight? 44, 45. That's crazy. You compete at a world class level against one of the top guys in the sport who's a knockout artist at 44, 45 and just put on a clinic. Put on a clinic. That moment there was around a time I became the alien. When you box four was three decades. Yeah, you were the executioner. You had to change to the alien. Listen, I understood the time I hung around and I had to recreate myself. I had to bring something to the press conference. Joe, I know you were gonna ask the question, but I'm gonna answer it. But I had to come up with something. Why? Why Joe is because what? Every reporter that been covering me they got tired of covering me eventually. Not based on what I've done and didn't do. I'm making history. They know what every time I fight, they remind me every fight I win. Now you just did this, you just did that. Ray Roberts, he couldn't do it and you did it. The Tarver fight, jumping up two way classes. Now the Charler brothers, right? You see what he tried to make history. Went up to jump two way class and fight Canelo. I set records that's still there to be chased. It's a blessing for me to sit back and have fun and have conversation. But I understood again every moment, every historic moment, every time that I can stay in the game not because I needed the money. They was paying me very well to leave. They was paying me very well to leave because of what I wanted to make sure that I establish a historic record that it would take decades to break them. And that's what's happening today or an attempt to happen. And so that to me gave me more drive to say, I'm gonna stay around one more. I'm gonna chase this dream. I'm gonna chase that goal. I'm gonna make this history because Ray Roberts didn't do it. I'm gonna jump up two way classes and fight Tarver. How old have you fought Tarver? 48, 49. You know how crazy that is? Yeah, in Atlantic City. Again, how were you able to do that? What separates you physically from all those fighters that deteriorated young in their career? Is it your defense? Is it just technique? Like what? It was a combination as a recipe. It was all above. Break them down to you. I'm gonna break them down to you. Okay. It was two of those that you mentioned, discipline, of course. Protecting yourself at all times in that ring even though you're still gonna get hit. But you wanna hit more than you get hit obviously, the wear and tear. Lifestyle. Yo, the lifestyle outside the ring is impeccable. You gotta understand the lifestyle and the discipline. Go back to D-block. Let's go back to D-block. Let's go back to running that yard. Yard out, yard in. Let's go back to winning championships in the greater Ford Penitentiary. Before I came home, I was a championship in prison. You go to my Instagram, I know they're gonna go now. I put up a sparring session with all the inmates outside the ropes watching me sparring the same penitentiary I got paroled from. I have more video that I kept just for my own sake, keep not knowing it gold today. What kept me in the business of boxing physically was not just my talent. I'm not down playing it by no means. Roy Jones was talented in me. Oscar Delahoyo, Trinidad was talented. Then Bernard, come on now. You had to, no, I ain't talking, I'm talking about far as all around skills. But one thing I did have, I had the room and ability to do what? To reinvent myself, to make sure that I don't be one way all the time. I learned styles that Roy possessed. I learned styles that Trinidad possessed. I learned the street Philadelphia mentality of the history of Philadelphia. Come in, wham, bam, thank you ma'am. I learned all that stuff and wrapped it up in a recipe. And now the main course was served. I learned so many things through time and experience. Up or down, bad or good. Like or dislike. I learned all these things and put them together in a proper space. And I said, guess what? If I'm in here with a guy that's strong the first couple of rounds, I'm gonna know without showing him, I'm being leery of him. And once I identify that, takes about two or three rounds. Why you think they said he's a slow starter? He's boring the first four or five fights. Joe, you watch me. You heard him say all the commentators. They snoring around the fourth round, they snoring. But then I understand what I have to do. Turn up the gas. Not only, yep, turn up the gas, but disarm them. Disarmamentally, with control from my perspective, everything you do tomorrow, everything you do the next round, everything you think about doing, if I put doubt in your mind and come to the ring prepared physically to take you to that task of whether you believe what you say. That's the block. And then you take that experience, which I've had, not bragging and boasting about it, but it's my history, it's part of my story. Without that, I'm not here. One of the enjoyable things I would love doing before the fight start, is when the referee, Bernard, come out, Jermaine, Tello, anybody, and then we in the middle of the ring. And he giving you last rights, right? Last instructions of the rules he gave you in the dressing room, I call it the last rights, because you don't have to be alive when you leave out of there. When that bell ring, your life could be in that in jeopardy. So I wanted to say last rights. So when they give us the last rights, you heard the rules, you heard this, it's too low, it's too high if you hit there. And I'm looking at my opponent like me, and you're looking at each other. He looking at me, I'm looking through him. I said it earlier. And whatever he see, he won't speak, but he can't run now. And as his bottom lip shiver, as we stare at each other for at least two seconds before he gives us the instructions to go to the corner and then the bell ring, first round is on. And then how fast and how good I start is how I finish. That's how I beat my opponents in and out of the ring. They front runners. They run in eight eighties and they're like, oh, I got a great time. I'm like, okay, we're not done though. That's the patience. That is knowing who you are and understanding that in doing that, you might have to taste some defeat. But you always hear the sound bite, especially in boxing. They love to use words because other people say it. Dare to be great. The actions don't speak the words. They come out of their mouth most of the time. And that's what separate the dos and the don'ts. The dare to be great. Correct. And to believe in yourself at 44, 45 years old, to still be not just world-class, but one of the best in the world. Thank you. That was just, it was just extraordinary that you were able to keep that level of skill. I just want to talk to you about your lifestyle and your training and what was it about your preparation, the way you lived that gave you this incredibly long career? My mother and father, Bernard Sr. and Shirley Hopkins, my mother, they lived, they had a different way of at that time, the way they lived. I come up, I told you again, big family, four sisters, and arrest boys on the second oldest. And they both, my mother and father was dead before 60, not because of an accident, not because of some violent crime or anything like that, lifestyle. I grew up around a lot of stuff. I've seen a lot of stuff. I used to watch my father take syringes and hide them up at the woodwork of the front of the door up top, and I used to climb up through the chair and get it and hand it to my mom, and she said, where'd you get that from? And I used to say it, and I realized I was starting something. It had to be about maybe six, maybe seven. And I realized I was starting something, so I no longer used to see him put it up there or go up there and get it. So it's the lifestyle. I seen a lot of lifestyle that I knew, and the history too of Philadelphia. Any little success you get, you think you're world champion, no, you're a regional champion, you're a Pennsylvania champion. A lot of guys actually wasn't disciplined to take it to the next level. They became stars in their own neighborhood. They became stars in their own city. I wanted to be bigger than that. And knowing it and saying it is one thing, but just as I speak now, as a conviction that I've continued to walk that walk and talk the talk, that drove me to be able to never give up and never waver from what I believe. So that there helped me stay away from the things that is right in front of your face most of the time. When you win, they have after parties, we're Bernard, we're champ, we all pop up upstairs, he getting in a hot tub. I go right to my room. I want a monk, but I go right to my room because 90% of people that's at that party, maybe half of them was rooting against me. And then second, they either smoking, drinking, snorting or anything else. I wanted about that life. I wanted about that when I was a hoodlum in the streets. I was about having things that I felt that my parents didn't have enough to give us that life that we just seen right three blocks from where we lived. And sometimes, especially in California, you can make two turns and you in somewhere where you'd be like, well, hold up, who hit the lottery? So I wanted that life in a different way and got a chance to now have it and some through the travels and the time that I've been on this earth where those two life experience that I look at, three lives that I lived, just the third one, that any of those times could have been over. That kept me disciplined in between fights. The years that I got, gotta have some credit, gotta give credit to that thinking and that experience of saying my mother and father died before 60 because of lifestyle my father had. Shot out of a kid liver, shot his liver out at 57. I feel the best, you look great. I know I feel great, I know I look great. And it was already gone. I reflect every now and then about that when I see pictures by getting certain things together about my life story. I'm looking and reading, I'm looking and grabbing things that I kept that's given to me by siblings. We all grown now. All my siblings, except for my brother because he got killed. The year I went to prison in 84, my mother lost two sons, speaking of that. Michael Derek Hopkins, I told you January 29th, he'd have been 57, 1966. The year 84, I remember it, it was the beginning of 84 because the Sixers, last championship was in 1983, if you're a basketball fan. 84, I was booked. 84, my brother got killed. Shirley Mae Hopkins lost two sons in 84. Talking about trauma. That was a key, key, key push and experience that I had to do something to make her proud. To make her proud once I get out, still got years to do. How many years do you want to do it? Five, five to 15. So track five out of 15, the way the Pennsylvania Parole Board works. If you get out on your minimum is five, you can do the 15, get into a stabbing, get write ups, do something in there that can be a crime too. The five is the minimum, the 15th is the max. So I had to walk a straight line amongst chaos. No confusion. Everybody, 90% of people there, they know why they there. Fuck what they say. They know why they there. That moment, after that first year of establishing myself, filling out the environment of who you deal with, who you stay away from, who to snitch, what guard, what CO is good, what CO is not. Most of the COs live in the same neighborhood you grew up at. It was the brother of your uncle, friend, who never had a felony, so he got a full application, he got a job and then he's the CO. I know your dad, okay, thanks. Hey CO, can I, you know, get an extra commissary? So you're not really protected by nobody because anybody can sell you out or do a favor. Mm. But what I'm trying to understand is just physically, I understand that you didn't party, I understand that you're very disciplined, but how were you physically able to compete at that level deep in your 40s? Because again, lifestyle, talent. But everybody else falls apart. Because everybody else is doing what everybody else been doing. What were you doing different physically? Physically, I was always, even to the day, I pay attention to what I put in my body as who I am, not what I actually looked like. And I understood that most people that I seen in my time in boxing, Florida's disciplined the same way, don't drink, don't smoke, and be sitting right there in the club and everybody doing everything else. You heard that before, it's all over. You got those type people like that. Genetics plays, my grandmother lived to 99. But then again, do I really take all the eggs and put in that basket because my father and mother died before 60. So, I would say the lifestyle. I would say the mindset or the teachings are both hit and not get hit. Read books a lot, do something to exercise your brain, take care of your physical body. The penitentiary, the penitentiary taught me more going there once I got there to understand what I wanted to do. I wasn't just lifting weights in a weight yard and be swole up around a bunch of men for five years. I went and understood that A, after a year went by, they got a boxing program. I wanted to get off the block to go to another block and the guard, CO, say, where you going, wild 4145? I'm going to the gym, but I'm trying to go on A block to hang out before count to go back on my block. If I don't do it, if I don't get over it before count, I get it right up. So, I was forced to go down to the gym and seeing people sparring and I said, I want to be a part of that. And I got my ass beaten lesson and I didn't like it and I've never been afraid to go in the gym again. 30 years later, I said, I would never go in a ring or any situation ill-repaired or unrepaired. I always go in there prepared. That lesson that I said to you then, and I say to you now, being in that institution, having that experience, going in there in that gym for the first time and say after a year went by and only by accident that I went down that gym because I was headed to another block, as I said earlier, and then get down that gym because boxing was independent entries in that era. We had boxing there attached to the AAU, which is the same thing they have outside. It's to bring young fighters in there to fight us, the amateurs have shows for the inmates. You buy a ticket at the commissary, you go to the fights that Friday. And inmates watch you, root for you. I didn't like how I felt. I wasn't prepared. They didn't beat me because I wasn't better. I got beat because I didn't run. I got beat because of the ego. I got beat because as they say the word hater, that I go down there and say, oh, here you are, you know, you gonna get in there with him? Yeah, come on, I used to box when I was in the streets. You know, that's the common talk. I used to do this when I was in the street. Okay. But those same old head trainers that double life or one life sentence or two life sentence, they spoke about me on Behind the Glory, Brian Gumbel. Look it up, it's out there. They spoke about me when I visit that same prison in my early professional career. Guess what, doing what? Sparring for my Atlantic City preliminary fights when I was building my record to get to where I became a champion. I became the USBA champion, which is a sister of the IBF World Championship belt. I left that institution. Anyone would have ran as far as they could, they would have ran so far from that place and never wanna say it again. But after six to seven months of coming from the United States, I fell from a first professional loss with Clinton Mitchell in Atlantic City, look it up. I took off 89 and 90, the streets was grabbing me. I still had seven and a half years parole due to math, nine years. I rebooted my first fight, I believe was in 91, 90 and 91. But that crucial moment, that year and a half, if you look up my record, you'll see Clinton Mitchell, 89, inactive, 89 inactive, 90 inactive, 91. What was happening is 16 months. I made a decision meeting an old guy named Bowie Fisher, God rest his soul. He won a champion, won a championships. He should be in the Hall of Fame because of me, I'm already in there. I'm the only fighter he ever had. Very food trainers going to Hall of Fame with one Hall of Famer or fighter. Fighter gets in, but the trainer might not. And I'm not saying it's bad or good, I'm just saying that's how it goes. He made a, and I made a bet. You being in, this is out there, you being in the gym, tomorrow and the next day and every day that we in the gym, I will be here. He heard young fighters come through, hear what God's come through before, oh, he's training me, I'm gonna be here tomorrow. He might come tomorrow, but they don't come. To be a champion every day that the gym is open. And we had a bet without even saying it's a bet. He asked me to come and he would be there. If I come, he said he would be there. And it was sort of like, and to the point we stopped even thinking about it. We just repeated it to the reporters and everybody that talked to us. That's how we met. How long after your first professional loss, do you hook up with Bowie Fisher? 80, 90, 91, 91, 92. So that's 16 months, that's when you hook up with him. And how long do you spend training with him before you have your next professional fight? All the way up to the Trinidad fight. So during that 16 months off, were you just training? Were you just improving? Yeah. But the training was fighting. You had mandatories. I had two fights, maybe three a year until you establish yourself normally two a year once you get at that level of competition. But yeah, I stayed in the gym. You heard the saying, gym rat. I was a rat in that gym. I stayed in the gym. And one thing that I pass on to the Golden Boy fighters today, because they came in, they come to me, they ask me, of course, why wouldn't they, right? Right. History normally repeats itself. Watch old fights. The old fights they're watching is our era. Mm. I say not only that, go to the next era. Go as further back as you need to go to understand that what you think you're doing has been done already, but the booty of going back and getting that experience and attitude, the land of time that you got, the land, you have land you can build, extension to the outs, the land you have in your age and the time you now are developing, take knowledge from the cradle to the grave and take those recipes, put them together from the past and you add it to the foundation that you already have, which is you, your style. It will be hard to adjust to a guy, to adjust to be the guy that has more than one weapon. And I don't mean the hands. I'm talking about in the arsenal. In the arsenal. It's hard to beat a guy like that. Joe Frazier, great fighter, hall of famer. But never box like Ali. He came forward even though it was to his disadvantage. You in New York City at 12 noon, trivin' but you don't have reverse. You gonna get jammed up. Right. You anywhere in New York Times Square down there and you came back up, you gonna have a problem. I guarantee you, take that concept into a fight. You know that you gotta back up or at least duck some of those but you still conditioned to go forward because you've been successful all the way up to now. I never wanted that element of surprise. So I learned how to box going forward, sideways, from Philly. I know how to go forward. But now I'll show you the boxing style. And I'm gonna show you, so I gave my opponents fits on trying to find a strategy that I actually gonna stick with myself that they can beat me on. And again, it was successful, very few, but some were successful and some got help. But I have no, I have no reserve poli-jazin and anything that happened in my career that I've done. And I say that at that moment, even though you didn't ask but you brought it up, the Tito, Trinidad. I've been to San Juan maybe two or three times. Do I know for sure when I went there and eat food that somebody spit in the kitchen in my food? I don't know that, but I can tell you the love that I got, the response that I got. And it's not the same generation, but it's always OG. Hanging around, cigars, Panama hat, come right out. You put on that, should be Tito. You'll hear him in San Juan and I got the generations all in between surrounding me, saying, he was a great champion, signing gloves, signing autograph, come on. You really mean that, Papa, you mean the mean, you threw the flag down, you don't like Puerto Ricas? What are you talking about? We got a little San Juan in Philadelphia. Every city got a little San Juan. I said, but at that moment, I wasn't getting respected. He said, Don King promotion. I had to sleep business wise to get the opportunity with Don for two fights. So I had a two fight deal, the tournament. And I'm the oldest one in the tournament. I'm the grandfather in the tournament that should be in the nursing home based on their, well, based on most fighters of your era when they got to that age. Correct, but I understand. Right. How they thinking? But the difference is I'm different, but I got to prove it. Yeah. So now the promotion starts. We in New York, HBO, I say, hold up. I say, hold up. T.O. Trinidad has multiple followers. He has a multimillion dollar contract with TV. I'm the renegade out of the 10th century. Every time the commentators bring my name up, he did five years for this, so I understand the Robin Hood and understand the bad guy. So you got the good guy in the bad car. That's what sells. I get it, but I ain't had to surrender to it. I knew what their agenda was, now let me show mine. In New York City, I said, listen, this is the first four city press conference. I have 11 defenses. I stopped at 21, 22 defenses. I had 11 at this time. I said, look, I'm the champion. T.O. has come up the weight to win my title. Don King presented me a deal with my advisor, representator, for a two fight deal. To be in this historic, since Marvis Marvin Hagler, under-spirited tournament for the Sugar Ray Robinson Trophy. Gonna pass that up, because this takes me to stardom. So I signed on. Press conference starts, New York. You want me to play second. Tito is more known. Tito just beat Oscar De La Hoya by split decision. Controversy or not, split decision. I'm letting everyone know at HBO, Carey Davis, Ross Greenberg, the suits at HBO at that time. Mark Taffet. I said, we're going to Philadelphia from New York, then Miami and then San Juan. Promotions are coming up. I'm gonna say, then Miami and then San Juan. Promotional tour. I anticipate the bullshit. Take it, I'm gonna play second, because Tito has much fan base than me. And the Latin market is huge, which, okay, I know that, but still, I am not surrendering. You're still the champion. And I'm Bernard Hopkins. If y'all don't respect me, when we go to this next city, because I threw the flag down in New York City, there's a park right next door, across the street from HBO buildings in Manhattan. Can't mention the name right now, I can, but I don't remember the name, but it's there. And we had the press conference there. The flag went down to New York first. They quieted up real quick, because they didn't want it to spread like it already did, but it was already out through some reporters that was there. That was the first stop, New York City. And they didn't respect me. And I said to them, if we're gonna do these next cities, and y'all don't worry about me, you're not being conscious of this flag going down again. In respect that I have 11 defenses, this is my division, Tito's coming up to my division to make history. You're gonna respect me. I'm gonna be first, and I'm gonna be last, through this tour that we're gonna do. I'm not gonna play second behind, y'all trying to win the middle battle before it starts. I'm not putting them up there like that. Y'all can do it, but you ain't gonna do it in front of me. It's gonna be a problem. And we can do this press conference. We can go to Philly, and we can go to Miami, and we can go to San Juan. I know it just like it happened yesterday. I said, but one thing for sure, I'm not gonna apologize, because that's what they wanted me to do. Where I come from, you don't punch a man, or take his money until you say sorry the next day. You don't do that. You take it and you stand on it. And if you see him again, you take it again. I said, I'm not gonna apologize, y'all can wait. We can go. I wanna go. If four of my people don't wanna go because they gotta take care of their dog, or they gotta point me at a doctor's that I ain't hear about until that happen, let me know on my side, anybody need to go. You know, cut man, my train, you know, anybody, if anybody will worry about going to the next three cities, then let me know. Ah, okay, I wouldn't apologize. I said, okay, they going crazy in San Juan. Let me know before I get there, Bernard, you know, this, we have security, we're gonna have, okay, you had the Puerto Rican police watching, a guy just threw the flag down in New York. So we get to Philadelphia, the press conference was smooth. We had a peace treaty in New York that nobody would, nobody would talk about it. We not going to bring it up, even if the reporters bring it up. Cool, okay, Tito's on the same, okay, nobody. Everything was fine, Philly fine. Reporters asked, we skated across it, asked, Miami fine, of course people ask it. This concentration on the fight, it's gonna be good September 29th, you know, 9-11, we all together, ride, ride, ride, you know, against the whole world been churned up. It was the first big event in two weeks after 9-11, my experience was there, film everything. That's attached to my legacy. We get to Miami, it ain't get heated, but you know, people got big Latin community down there, they got, you know, kind of feisty, I would say. We get to San Juan. Roberto Coliseum. That year's Satchel Paige, I heard a note about Roberto, you know, the baseball player. Stadium is packed, pet rally, Tito Trinidad. Their state police, stone face. Dave, I look, this point go that way. Okay, I know I'm an enemy's land, I'm playing chess, not checkers. And I know how to move my pieces. So I go down, okay, we gotta go that way. We at the airport, San Juan, all the stuff, the people that was there working was, they flagged me, you know, why did he probably flag me? They give me, I don't know, so we walking, everybody going one way. We get to Roberto Coliseum, motorcade. Press conference starts, seven, eight minutes, went right in, packed. They get, you know, walk right in, fan, whatever. So that was the intimidation floor they was trying to do on me. Understood, San Juan, way from home. I'm outnumbered, correct? They got to call in certain names, you know, far as the show and HBO got up there and spoke. This is a historic boom, boom, boom. So we got through that and it's time for the fighters. I got up there, said what I said, did my famous throat slashing, dicks, heads coming off. Then Tito got up there. Then Tito got up there. Said a couple of words and banged down, when you threw my flag, he broke the treaty. So now I went into my act, but serious, when you threw my flag, Spanish, it was crazy. They start throwing magazine, reporters, they taking pictures, they looking at. So I, it seemed like everybody in the breaches was coming. We ducking, books, magazines. Now they're starting to get a little pushy pushy. So Don King in the middle, Trinidad got away from the podium. Don, like today, we take the fighters hands, hey, big fights gonna happen. Don waving a flag before he done this hand raising, which he didn't get a chance to do rather, before he attempted to do it. He's waving a flag and this is on video, he's waving a flag. Tito broke, he broke the treaty, he ain't supposed to say nothing, but he home, right? I got a count of that. I got a count of that. I gotta do something so risky that it's gonna, I hope, be world news. Don was fighting me not to get, I grabbed the flag from his hand. We tussled three, four minutes, three seconds, excuse me. And literally for a second was quiet. When that flag hit that ground, it is right here. Don telling me back up, I'm pointing my finger at Tito. I snatched the flag out of Don's hand, his eyes opened up, everything is went. The fans from the front was already coming down. That's why my guys, Jolier was saying, come on, let's go. So they was taking me up to the balcony where I had to jump down in between the bleachers. I had to get down to the dugout, basically, to get free, to get away. Because they was coming up. They was taking me up because they was coming past the reporters, they was coming from, to get me going up. We couldn't do nothing but go up. And the only way to get down was to jump down like the dugout that you go through. And this is after you threw the flag down? Of course, the flag went down. When the flag went down, it was just, they were just coming. And somebody hitting me there, whoever the guy was. Nazim Richardson is behind me with the Kufi, Sharif, all my guys, two of my guys, the rest of the people just hit me on my back. And throwing things at me. So they just trying to now actually get away from the crowd that's coming up. Where I'm going, I don't know. I jumped down at the opening. And that's when the sheriff or the police said, look, that way. He wasn't helping. So we found a room, locked ourselves in a room, holding the door. Now, we're trying to lock the door, but the door is like a hard move. They pushing the door, we holding the door. We gotta hold this door like this. Anybody that remember that moment after they hear this podcast, it rained, look, we all know how the tropical storms come when you over there in the islands. It rained so hard around the time that we needed to get out of there and get straight to the airport, which they took as motorcade, cops on both sides. With fans and cars riding on the side and behind us. It was like 95 on the East Coast. It was like I-10 crossing West Coast to these. They was on our ass going to the airport. That moment, that moment that I got on that airport, got to the airport and got on that plane. That moment in the weeks to come, before September 29th, 2001, Tito had to train from my perspective. Now, I said this leading up to the fight when I had interviews and mentioned it because the flag was brought up, of course, in the riot that I caused and instigated. Tito had to hit that bag with that thought of hitting me. He had to train and run. He had to be reminded because he always stayed in San Juan and train. He rarely went to camp if he ever went to camp to train. He stayed in San Juan. He's the hero even to the day. And Tito had to hear something from whether his siblings, cousins, uncles, next door, whoever, wherever he was at for training camp in San Juan, someone was reminding him. The name that they was calling me is Diablo. They was calling me all kinds of stuff. And I wore it like a badge of honor because I wanted to send a message and I wanted him to go through those four or five weeks left because on 9-11, they rebooted to the 29th. I wanted him to think about me every time he preparing for that fight because someone's gonna remind him even if it's a guy that he's getting groceries from. And I wanted him to think about what I did and what he has to do. So now taking that strategy of art of war because I wanna fight a guy that's mad at me, not a guy that trained and planned and got a skill set of how to beat me. Give me that angry man every day. I love the angry guy. Because he's going off of emotion. It's not going off of intellect and boxing. Business the same way. If you can get him mad, you can get him done. The intellect, the strategy, you trying to hit me and knock me out every time. The risk is always if I get hit, I'm done. But I take that because I bank on what? Defense makes a good offense. A defense make a good offense. A good defense is a good offense because of what? You have to earn everything you get when you hit Bernard Hopkins, the execution of the alien, the beehive. Three brands in three decades. Three brands in three decades. I can tell you a story about all these brands. I told you about the executioner. I told you the alien kept asking questions, reporters every time I was fighting in past 40s. Why are you doing this? We know you got your first dollar. We know you live right. We know you're doing this. They got tired of seeing me, not me winning. They got tired of me hanging around and they started asking questions. I said, because I'm a fucking alien. And I instructed my guy, Sheriff. I said, Sheriff, go get some Halloween. It's almost like the beginning of September. They'll get some green mat. I'm telling you, I'm more than something y'all. Get some green. What would they say? What would your camp say? They was looking like, I was crazy. They thought I wanted to do it. I said, you fucking guy is crazy. What's crazy is your whole career. You'd come in with the executioner's mask on. The executioner got retired. Nah, that was done. Listen. Look at the mask. The mask, the can of power. The mask, the alien was born because of continue to be asked questions. In boxing, Sony Sport, we see football. I mean, everybody, Brady, Brady. And Brady did a hell of a job still. Listen, I know how hard it is to compete and continue to do it. But it wasn't that as hard as for me because I knew what I needed to do and I knew my body wasn't the age that my birth certificate says. My lifestyle was my age. My lifestyle was my age, not that birth certificate. And if you think that's just talking, then look at me. Look at me now. I'm four pounds over my fighting weight and two of that is water. You gotta give me two for just being water weight. How do you not fight over six years and you four pounds over 175 your last fight? That's insane. I'm a fucking alien. I'm an alien. How did you learn to eat correctly? What did you, like, what was your diet like? I didn't have a diet. I don't believe in diet. The diet is commercialism. I believe in lifestyle. I believe in lifestyle, eat to live, not to die. It's in the teachings which I represent. It's in the teachings. Eat to live, not to die. You are what you eat. If you eat like a pig, then to me, that's who you are. Do you have the right to do that? Absolutely. But if you come to me and you ask me for advice, which I get all the time, from people I know and some people I don't know, you're expecting people I know should know that my consistency and it's just who I am. I'm not a late nighter. I push myself to get rest early when I'm doing fights in different time zones. As I leave here, I'm headed to Vegas to do what? A fight. Under golden boy promotion. So I know how to take that same, to relate on the questions that you just asked me, I know how to take those moments of rest, I know how to take those moments of being active, I know to take those moments on how to take care of myself like I'm fighting but I'm not anymore physically. This is a different type of resume for me to do. So I have to go ahead and do what? Keep my mind straight, answers and questions, well questions is coming from everybody, is looking how you answer it to see if they can fill something in that gave dumb information. I look at some of the politicians and I say sometimes they ask the questions just to give you a lot but nothing. Right? Yeah. In boxing, they're a small percentage that legitimately ask your question because they don't know. And then most of the time you gotta at least be under the impression that they trying to connect something that they already know. For instance, hey Bernard, what do you think about Ryan Garcia suing Golden Boy? Oh Bernard, what do you think about Oscar is not telling the truth about something? My head is always on a swivel, on the block. But having your head on a swivel in this perspective is not looking, because they see me looking. You know who they are when they know you're not looking or they think you're not looking, put it that way. That's who they really are. Not when they're in your face most of the time, not when they're in your presence, but when they know that you already think that you're not paying attention, that's who they really are. I'm watching them, not even looking at them. D block. I know what's on my right, right here in this studio. I know what's on my left. Obviously I came in and I scanned it, but right now I know what's to the right and the left, but I don't know what's in back of me. So I constantly, constantly put those messages out there when it's needed. Because they no longer can say I'm the paranoid one, they used to say I was boxing to try to justify that I'm speaking the truth. But if they get convinced most who listen what they fed and move out on what they fed, whether it's newspaper, TV, I don't even watch TV no more. I'll be living in another country if I did. Then the advantage is to them, not to you. But once you start doing something that boxing business, people don't like, why you think you're seeing those fighters having nervous breakdowns in the ring, crying, heavyweight contender. Having breakdowns on the side of the ring. Because there today, people that talks about Don King, and he all what I know he is. I got testimony to that. You ain't gotta convince me, but he ain't the only Don King out there of personality and track record that some might think that there's only one mind and one entity that did extraordinary job, whether you like it or not. They came from, let's just think about Don King's history. Here's a guy, a few hours from New York, I mean, Philadelphia, excuse me, Cleveland. Take the system, the law and broke some. And had that long 50, 40, 40 plus something years to do with the rules that were set way before him and use it the way he'd done for so many years. Oh Bernard, you sound like your patron, nah. I'm just telling you he done something that's normally not done for a period of time from a culture that looks like me. That's my point. That's extraordinary. Normally it's the mob. From Vegas all the way to Boston, Philadelphia and every city in the state, I mean, state in the United States. To take those openings and opportunities to have a long extended decades of a run like that. Now, I know he was in his own, 100%. Boss, but you get to the point we have a run like him so long, you get to pay your way out of paying somebody the first to start off. I'm pretty sure the Muhammad Ali's Sunday listing, I'm pretty sure the 80s, early 80s, the 70s, I'm pretty sure they had the guys with the suit and tie sitting there. I still think that Sunday listing could've got up from the right hand from Muhammad Ali. Yeah, that seemed like he was acting. That's Lewiston Maine, right? Correct. Yeah, that seemed like the fix was in. And you talk about the fight with Duman Cinco, you talk about the hanging fight that I'm pretty sure you see the same way I see, who won that fight. And other fights, maybe one or two more that was kind of bizarre, right? In the last few months. And we briefly talked about it and we got on something else, which I mean your mind I think works. I've been here for a couple of hours now, I got to understand how this thing is working out in the conversation of corruption, period. Period. That need to be brought to the forefront, that need to have a light flashed on the roaches. And then they'll try to scatter and you just gotta crush them before they get to their destination of retreat. Yeah, this is a long about conversation that we got into corruption, but what I wanted to bring it back to was like you were saying it was your lifestyle, you were saying it was your discipline, but it was you put in your body what you needed to survive and thrive. You didn't fuck around, you didn't drink, you didn't smoke, you didn't party, you always get out of sleep. Don't eat bad food, don't mess with sugar. I read everything, I read everything. You read books on nutrition. I read books on everything, I read the back of the label of the stuff that I was purchasing. I take my Maltese, I never got into, I don't even like needles, better than on shots. B12s, I take B12s, I used to get the B12 shots for energy to, you're losing weight, whether it's water weight or not. I got 2.5, 3% body fat, probably up to a three now. So the sponge gets to the point where it is what it is. Now you burn the muscle, now you're bingo. Now you're losing nutrients. So you were one of the first fighters that I ever heard that was eating organic. Yes, and I was like, oh. To the day, as an ex-fighter, again, these things make me feel good. And these things, listen, I know how hard I need to work when I need to work. I know when I need to just blow some dust off of my body a little bit, just to get a little warmed up. So every day I'm not going hard, to the day I'm not going hard. I don't hit the bag, I hit the bag since I retired. I ain't been in a boxing gym, for what? My stuff is ways to keep the muscle that we lose at a certain age, every two years, a year and a half, you lose certain percentage of muscle. I'm just trying to keep that depth. I'm a little good in my suits. You understand? What do you do now for working out? Well, I do some running twice a week. I do a long distance run, three and a half, four miles, depending on how my crew can hang in or how I feel. But three tops, I do A80s, I do running, blow it out. I used to do that with Mackie Showstone. Shout out to Mackie Showstone from New Orleans. He worked with a couple of greats even, the tennis. So Mackie taught me a lot. He let my guy video eight weeks of training in New Orleans. He worked with Holyfield, correct? He worked with Bo, Riddick Bo. He worked with Roy Jones Jr. Wound up to heavyweight to fight John Huiz. He worked with Dow Strawberry, Hall of Famer, baseball player. And he was one of the first guys to do a lot of unconventional training. He worked with me, yes. He worked with me to build me up from 160 to 75 to the two-way classes we talked about. And he still gotta be in his mid-70s now and great shape. I believe he's still in New Orleans. We made history together. And one thing he did, I had a guy, right? Don't have him now, but his job was in my camp. Was to film everything, whether we having an off day, which we do on Sundays, right? Some Saturdays, if I'm peeking. If my training boy, Fisher, seen me sparring, he'd say, what are we just at nine rounds? He ain't even breathing. And he sharp on the seventh, eighth, and ninth. We gotta take a break, take two days off. So we have our sparring partners fighting. So I used to have a guy named Linwood. He was basically like, I camp entertainment. Heavy guy like to eat, that's what he cares, the camera. Camera quarter is big. And he filmed the off days, the sparring, the training that Mackey gave me the permission to use. Everything Mackey was building me up to be quick. As a minute, just like a middleweight. Don't lose none of that, but have the structure of a light heavyweight slash cruiserweight, which at that time was 190 and it's 200. Mackey Shosto taught me above and beyond from a science and from his view to add on to mine. And today I pass that on to young fighters who ask or show them the video, bingo. Here it is right here. Different things he did. Did a lot of unconventional stuff. Unconventional stuff. And you might look at it and say, what this guy's doing box? You don't punch like that in the ring, but the explosiveness that he was telling me moments of my explosiveness like, damn, jumping off that and jumping on that has a lot to do with being in the ring when you're moving. And a lot of doing like that counter right there and that counter right hand. That counter right hand. These are the things that he used to be the X-15 because he got that service mentality and he's telling you about the bombs and they come in and he's telling you how you have to get in that mentality of being in war. Like the off days on a Sunday, Mackey used to come to Big Bear where I was staying at Oscar's facility at the time. Golden Boy was promoting the fight. And he would come and he would say, look, I'm gonna fly out there. We're gonna go to the base and we're gonna be gonna get in some number of, they can't remember, one of them fire fighting planes. He did the same thing to Roy Jones Jr. Me and Roy got in the Hall of Fame at the same time, about two years ago. So he has the same experience. We talked about it. Mackey taught me that, you said, unconditional way of trainer coming in, showing you, building you up, maybe doing this, doing that. But he took it to a sort of like a mental, you at war, you have to be certain ways at certain timing to fight. You might get cut. You might get in survival mode, but not show that you're surviving. How do you fight when you're tired? How do you fight when you're tired? Do you fight to survive? Means you fight just to keep the guy off you because you don't want him to hit you no more. That's fighting to survive. Or do you learn how to survive and still kick ass? I learned to do that. When you see inside, I was brutal inside with my opponents. I'll beat him and hit him every way they can imagine to break him down. They call it, as the fighter would say, I filed him or he hit me here, he hit me there. Old school, old school. If the referee is in the ring and we're fighting, we are fighting. Well, it's boxing. No, we are fighting. When you fight, they set the rules. You make the rules when you fight. And if the referee sleep at the will and the referee don't see that you complaining about something that he didn't see, then that's on you. Because the same thing I do to you, you can do to me. So once you start telling the referee that I did something to you, I already got your heart now. You want help. See, Joe, we always going back then. And we can be what you eat, what you don't eat. You look great with your secret. No, I don't have a secret. You miss your diet. No, I said I let that as a lifestyle. I'm gonna go back to this. Especially in sports. Any sports. This right here is so important. The mind. I was so instilled, wrapped up into the mental because this controls everything. This controls this. This body doesn't control this. They used to call weightlifting guys airheaded because they see this and they walking around, but where's the strategy book? Where's the playbook? You don't have none. You just bring in a sawed off shotgun to a fight. And I'm coming with multiple opportunities to get you out of here. In sports. Now, if you hit me, you hit me. I know that's the risk, but I got a better chance from getting you and I got more opportunities how I get you. That is important to me. So when you talk about your overall biological age, how much of it do you think has to do not just with the lifestyle but with being defensively responsible? Because you never really took beatings in your career. You had good fights, but there was no beatings. You were always defensively responsible. Yes, because I want to be able to have life after boxing. And you maintain that discipline while you're fighting even in the heat of a battle. I maintain that discipline to not overreact and get excited even when I'm the hunter or being hunted. Even if you look at that photo, that video that you just showed, if you land in that right hand, your chin is tucked. Yeah. You're always tucked. And that habit, I was taught that. How was I taught that? In prison, everybody wanted to see their work. They call like, myering your work. You up, chin up and you, you looking all good. Even hitting the bag. The way you hit the bag is the way you gonna hit your opponent. Your stance has a lot to do. Whatever you do outside the ring, you gonna do in the ring. Did you keep something out of your chin? Like a tennis ball? Tennis ball. Yeah. Not only do you keep it on your chin when you hitting the bag, the bag don't have arms. You gotta visualize that bag got arms. But try doing it when you got a guy that can fight at least 60, 70% to give you some good work. And you gotta have that. And every time you drop it, you gotta do it extra round. I got some rounds in. Brother Nazim, brother Nazim. Brother you seen the yellow shirt with the cool feet. Correct. Give me one more soldier, give me one more round. Because you know, I ain't gonna say I ain't got it. Right. Put the ball under my and re-rumbling. Now, it don't mean that God knocked the ball out. It's possible, but you let it go. Right. And I'm punching and ducking and getting hit, but that ball better be there with a bell ring. Mm. Oh. Oh, that's so hard. How many guys train like that? I don't, I haven't, I passed it on. I passed it on, I mentioned it. I passed it on the tennis ball. We call it the tennis ball. Ryan Garcia could use that advice. A lot of the times he'll stand straight up. It's too late. Yeah. Too late? Yeah, I know he says, this young guy's too late. Why it's too late? I believe because of the arrogance of saying what you need to do, knowing what you need to do and doing what you need to do and be consistent consistent about it is a whole another conversation. So either they do that or they don't. And if they don't, they're never gonna make it all the way. Anybody they fight that recognize it and discipline the weight to that time come and be real about it will be victorious. This doesn't say that championship of the world will escape him or he will never achieve that. Absolutely he will. In this era, especially, no disrespect, but in the same token, bad habits or a bad habit one day will kill you. I didn't need or kill your career. I didn't need to be burnt four or five times once I got of knowledge that I didn't like that. I went through all the juvenile system in Pennsylvania then state in 17. And I said it because once I got a taste and understood my value and understood what I need to do to be successful, now I'm here. I mean, the same dream talking. Right. This getting up, putting that work in, understand that everybody ain't gonna make it. Understand that everybody ain't gonna be for you. And everybody ain't against you. But how you get the better of both, you let the adversaries of the other side, you let the opinions negative or not. You have a contest amongst those who say, you know, why you wanna do that? It's impossible, no, that can't happen. You're going to a two way class, man, you're too old, you're still fighting. What about congratulations that I wanna, so I look at all these things in reflection sometimes and I say to myself, I'm so glad I didn't take people advice. Well, it's just so amazing that you didn't listen to anybody and it almost like it's steeled your resolve. Because when they were telling you, you were too old for the Kelly Pavlik fight and you knocked him out and then you continue to fight at a world class level after that. It's like he's not even done yet. Because everyone else, I mean, if we go back to some great fighters that when they, you know, I was always a big boxing fan, like way back in the 80s, when those guys hit 34, 35, 36, 37, it was basically over. And some of them even before that, you know, some of them, you know, you just expected to see the decline and the decline with you never came. Never. Never came. Never. Never came. And even in your last fight, like when you fought Joe Smith, when you went through the ropes. Who's fighting this Saturday? Yeah, he's fighting Zotto, that's when we're going out to promote. Going through the ropes like that scared the shit out of me because like what was below those ropes? Was that just cement? Did you just fall right on the cement? Yes. What the fuck was going on there? That they didn't protect the fighters more. One of the things of safety that has been elevated to a level than 20 years ago. But to me, there's more need to be done. I'm not the only fighter, either got knocked out of the ring or fell out of the ring. Right. But it should be padding. Yes. Across that ring. 100%. Even wrestlers that wrestle in college and sports, professional wrestling, they have a pattern that... In case someone goes through the ropes. That can take some of that shock of the damage. Did you land on your head? Yes. God damn. Yeah. It looked terrifying. And you always flirt with falling out that ring. You couple of feet up in the ring. Yeah. You know, you can... You paralyze yourself. You can chip something. You can die. You can die. Anything can happen. I was very fortunate. Stayed in a hospital to the next morning. Did x-rays. Obviously, when I left LA, the fight was at the forum. I got checked out by my personal doctor and was very, very fortunate to be in great shape after that. Very fortunate. But again, I'm not expecting everything to be checked in a checkbox of A+, A+, A+, but little big important things. Little thing is, A, I know you all see this, it's a floor. Seaman floor. You hit that, your head gonna crack like a coconut. Right. So again, to me, majority of the people that surround boxing is not around for boxers itself. They're around for money. Correct. And clout. And clout. When you fell through those ropes, man, it scared the shit out of me. Because I was watching the way you fell. And I'm like, damn, did he just land on his head on the concrete? Yep. Backwards, too. Yeah, backwards, right through the ropes. And the ropes seemed loose. They wasn't tight. They was loose enough to actually, you could see the stretch of the rope when I tried to grab it. I tried to grab it with the right hand. Yeah. The fact that you fell that way, I mean, that is fucking crazy. I mean, that is a crazy way to fall through the ropes. See, that's the shot I took. And I'm back up, I backed up, and I'm getting pushed back. And look at the guy. He got out of the way. He got out of the way and let you fall right on your head. And that was the big thing, too. That's like a four foot drop. That's a big drop. I'll say five, five to four, yeah. But if you look at where how the guy just stepped away, then he put his hand up. Watch this. That guy could have caught you. Of course. He ran. Did you ever see that guy again? No. What the fuck, dude? Wherever you are. I'm not saying he's not around. Wherever he is. What the fuck? I don't even know what he looked like. How do you not catch the nardob bits? Well, since you showed that, he's not going to come into fights anymore properly. He shouldn't come into fights. But he got out of the way. Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy. He could have saved you. Yes. From falling. Yeah, could have saved the back of your head. Yeah. And possibly the fight would have went on, because I would have got back in the ring. Yeah. Did you know going into that fight, that was going to be your last fight? No. You were 51? 51. 51. I mentioned that it was going to be my last fight. But I didn't know, because if I would have got past Joe Smith, what I couldn't tell you right away, that an opportunity of history would have made me think about the next and then got out. Right. But it was promoted. As your last fight. Correct. Right. And my family, people that around me, we was all locked in on the last historic fight of my career. With Joe Smith, who I never even to that moment, an estimated knew he was young, strong, big. Big light heavyweight. Right. I'm not a big. You look at me right now. I'm not a big light heavyweight. But I started at light heavyweight in my career. If you look at my record in the weight, I'm meltdown in 60. Because that's what my training says. You go on your middle weight. You got a little fat there. You've been in prison. It's water weight. You're going to eat better. You're going to run better. Atmosphere is better. I start swimming down. Oh, you're right. Middle weight it is. So I'm meltdown. I did the opposite of the rules. I'm meltdown in 60. Normally, you come up to weight classes to being in the weight division. Because you grow into that weight, or you eat your way into that weight. That moment to outside of the ring, well, family, was a moment to say that, but we know. As fighters, we know when it's time. Did you feel? I ran out of things to do, as far as history making. Because even though I wanted to do something and I beat that, winning, like I've been successful most of the time, that day to be great is real. And what's different? What was I thinking? Or what was different that night until it happened? Until it happened. And that's the difference. Because you don't count yourself out until you're out. And then I looked at it as time went on. You and I have been having a conversation for a few hours now. Like I plenty image you for a 58-year-old, right? Yeah. With three decades under my belt of boxing, right? Yeah. It doesn't seem like I'm slowing down anytime soon, right? No. I really sat home. Weeks after the fight was over with and steady taken, because the opportunity of the opportunists seeing an opportunity to try to make that fight my life at the end, I said to them, some industry or the atmosphere out there that had one of the fruit tans to throw dirt on my grave of legacy. I said, y'all forgot something. Or y'all want to forget, but I'm not going to let you forget. If you look at my life up to now in boxing and starting off before I became a champion in boxing, I said I lost my first fight as a pro. I lost my last fight as a pro. Everything in the middle is a story motivational, never give up story. But you should be worried about what I do next, because the way I started shows ain't the way I'm an end. So in this third or fourth chapter of my life, at a young 58, fast approaching 59, the way I started shows that my character doesn't say I submit to the way it's going to play out or end. So now the fight is different. Fighting in the ring physically, the fight is around a powerful controlling and that's boxing attitude when things blunt in your face. That the fight I got down is the fight of Satchel Paige in his era and baseball. The fight I have now is the fight that Jim Brown, Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, and a lot of the greats at that time stood up when they need to stand up at that moment for that cause. I'll put them on notice before I'm putting them on notice again just because it's fresh that they're going to hear it again. That this fight is different than the fight that got me here. This fight is about here, discipline of patience, knowing how to use and strategize your chessboard and the pieces that's on that board. If they willing to do what's been done for so many centuries all the way up to now, then the only one thing I needed more for this fight is my health and my memory. They better hope I keep it. And that's the warning. The warning is that I am the Satchel Paige of this era. I'm gunning for that legacy. I'm the Muhammad Ali when he spoke of this era for things that he spoke, VidCon never called me a nigga. He said that in the 60s in this country. Well, that was one of the reasons why he was so important culturally. And that's why my idol other than Marvin Hagler. When I say idol, I'm talking about idol and not idol in him as my God, idol him as an example. That there are some in any aspects of life that will risk it all. And those who listen and hear this and have already said it, I've done. Listen, if it was $50 to $100 million made in my career to play the game and eventually they'll trick me out of it later, that was left on the table because of this. Not because of the emotions, because of this, and then because of this and then because of that. Because once I understood, I want to keep my mouth closed. I said, oh, this is how it is. But I needed power before I speak. I needed to be world champion. And my first world championship fight that we didn't talk about was Roy Jones Jr. in 1993, RFK Stadium. I told you about the memory. Under the Riddick Bow, the heavyweight champion fighting Jesse Ferguson, he was the main event. I was the co-man. Roy was the house fighter of HBO, multi-million dollar contract. I was known as the guy from Philadelphia, tough, come give some work from the penitentiary. You know, you've got to have the villain and you've got to have the nice guy. And Roy gave me a lesson, a lesson of what? I wasn't ready. Boy, when I got that opportunity a year and a half later, the RBF, same title, vacant by Roy Jones Jr. Roy went up to 168 the next way up. I'm in line as the number one, number two contender. I fight in Segundo Mercado in Quito, Ecuador. He can push that fight up here, see the first fight with Segundo Mercado, which means second in Spanish. I called him second at the press conference. You would never beat me. I'm first, you're second. Segundo, your mother knew you was going to be second all your life. So we go to Quito, hostile environment. Quito at that time was at war, conflict with Peru. But I was sold out by a promoter to get more money to bring me there to fight an Ecuadorian in Ecuador. Joe, I get knocked down two times, got up, fought my way back up, finished the fight. Here I'm in Ecuador being sold out by a promoter. I get to Ecuador 11 plus thousand feet above sea level, probably higher than Denver, Colorado. Couldn't breathe the first second round after I exhaust myself to the max early on and fought my way with Segundo Mercado for the first fight we had and did a draw in Ecuador fighting Ecuadorian. I take it. I won the fight, they would have killed me. That's what the rumor was. If you would have got that decision in Ecuador, even though I fought my way back from 7 to 12, I almost had them out if you look at the video. In a very hostile environment, if they would have gave me that fight, we wouldn't have left Ecuador. So they call it a draw. The IBF mandated that the fight must happen in 120 days. They had to get the work right away, but the energy was different than going to Ecuador. Don King wasn't sure of Segundo beating me in America if he couldn't beat me in his hometown in Ecuador. So the promotion was kind of froggy, but we went through the process and I became champion in Ecuador, I mean, in America in 95, knocking out Segundo Mercado and land over Maryland, and then defending that title for 12 years. That was the first IBF title I had. Yeah, that IBF title based in New Jersey, East Orange, New Jersey. That IBF title was the title I had all the way up to the 20-some defense. That was the first title. And the politics and the confusion of boxing, there are so many belts, which makes it limited to be under-spirited until under-spirited today is being talked about more than ever now. Did you watch the fight the other day? Which one? Canelo and... Yes. Did you see they picked the screen up for not Hopkins? As the last or the reboot of the under-spirited, and then they had all other names. And the four belt era, and the four belt era, my name is up there first. Now, Showtime ain't... Even though I've been on Showtime more than I've been on HBO, but the politics ain't there for me because of the players they work with. I get it. But it was hard for them to try to cut that out. They couldn't. I sat home and I laughed. I had laughed, I thought I had ulcers. I laughed, I said, because I know for a fact that if they can take that name and share less light on Bernard Hopkins, then it was great. And even though you didn't ask this, my case in point is this. All the stuff I told you earlier. What I just said now, the Ryan Cross, he in tape fight. We was the second promoters. They picked up the bigger money, big fight. It was a PBC, right? Card. Al Heyman Card. I ain't afraid to say his name. They tried to oust me. You follow my... They tried to... I put everything... I waited for about two weeks. Strategy. Art of war. Sunzu. I waited. You didn't ask, but you let me talk. They slayed us. We didn't come to the dressing room. You heard about that? Oscar and them didn't come to Ryan's dressing room. We abandoned him. I don't know if you heard him. We were supposed to abandon him. We didn't lose... We looked like dish bags, right? We looked like scumbags. He loses now that the promoters... And if you got any other agenda, any other agenda from whatever you got it from or why you have it, this is your time now to show yourself. So I waited, waited, waited. And credit to Joy, my assistant slash fiance, she said, I got all the video. You didn't know I was videoing the corner of everything. Why would he say y'all didn't come? So I said, you did what? She said, I got video. Remember when he hugged you and he said sorry to you that it didn't work out? And you was telling him that Oscar got a death threat and the bodyguards took him out? He in the dressing room video and both. I said, you have it. I said, sober to me because we're getting slayed public opinion. Right. I still got footage I ain't even throw out yet. She said, here it goes. I looked at it. I said, yo, I need this. Let's take our time. Take a deep breath. Strategy over emotions. Intellect. Intellect over emotions. Strategy over emotions. Let's put all this together. Take a deep breath. I said, first of all, thank you. Right. Look for, you know, not now, but a raise coming soon. I said, now you go with this Instagram stuff. I'm totally like I just come home from penitentiary. I'm lost. Still, still. I can't keep up with it. Good. Much well real sun can, but I get to knock you, but I did. Yeah. I can't miss spelling words. Here to this disgrace. But I said, listen, we begin hammering last two. You say, I know, I know. And I'm I can't. So I say, look, you go with this Instagram. Let's just break this up certain days and make it make sense not to throw it out. We're going to. What do you. So he said everything he needed to say. Now we got to come with. We mean not in this corner. We mean we miss. We mean we show up at the press conference. They will let me in the ring. If you go to my Instagram, you'll see they they they they know you can't. They blocked me from getting in the ring. What they expected. What they expected from me. Watch this move. Thank you, producer. Great guy over there. Watch this move. Bernard can't come in the ring. Bernard can't come in the ring. Tom Brown. That's our Haman's flunky right there. He's a promoter license and our Haman hides behind him. So his name is Tom Brown. Our Haman has beyond him because by the Muhammad Ali act that I stood up for. It doesn't cover advisors. It doesn't cover consultants. So now those lawyers because he has a Harvard law degree. Our Haman. He hires promoters, especially Tom Brown, who come from the Goosens in the Denver, Colorado, known very well. He sat next to me. He said here, Joy and me. I switched seats with Joy because I told her Tom Brown is the eyes and ears. Why we sit in there. They had controls of the tickets. They had control of the show because they'd a leading promoters. PBC. So I was quiet ringside. All the fighters from their side was behind me. So I was in their row. That's the seats in the section they put me at. Even Oscar was to my right. They had me right near the corner. Churn buckle. Because if you look at any Golden Boy fights, I'm always in the middle because we have control. And the fighters always look out. They got trainers. Don't look at me, but they do look. Sometimes the fight mode come in and I can't help myself. I'm learning to be more subdued. Why I'm sitting watching as the promoter. So they had my seat where the Churn buckle the corner. The corner. Correct. So you couldn't see. So yes. So I watched for my seat. Lean to the right, which I had a slightly better view. But those moments of the art of war. This ain't complaining. They was prepared, but I was prepared to. They knew I was coming in new. The energy I was bringing. See, I wasn't coming. We listen. Oscar personality is not my personality. That's the best way I can explain it to you. If I see something, I'm going to speak on what I see. I'm not going to run and tell somebody. What I can do and say myself to me, that's a man. They was prepared because we did business. Before. I'll human. Branched off to do. His company. He took 80, 90 percent of Golden Boy fighters because those fighters including floor Mayweather is under what Golden Boy. So he took per se if you're in the music business, he took his catalog. And started. PBC. I didn't go. It's some bad blood. Because everybody know the situation even to the day. Oscar definitely understands and know it. I was in Nell in the coffin. If they would have got me to leave based on a contract that they gave me to leave, what was in it for me. And I seen. That it was crowded over there at PBC. And I still even to the day understand the process is always a risk. But I'd rather be on this side even with the baggage. They wanted to predict, predict our demise. We're going to be in federal court in six months. Ask remind me all the time. You remember they said this partner. Did not go to last six months. He going to see they came back door. They thought. Trying to poison the waters. So there's just a bunch of dirty business that goes well. Filthy dirty. That's a good word. Filthy. Yeah. So. 20 plus years later. A lot of things in changing in boxing and breaking news. But a lot of people don't know. A lot of big networks. One already left. HBO is gone. Yeah. This is what I was leading to. Yeah. There's a whole churn as you aware of the turn. You haven't been in Austin a year yet. Have you three years. Three. Three years. Right. Three years. Right. Three years. Right. Yeah. But it was a reason to change from there to here. I assume. Yeah. Boxing is changing and have changed even more. So one left 40 plus years HBO. Correct. And you being a boxing fan. I know that kind of hurt. Yeah. My prediction is. The show Tom is family ready to pack it in. That's not good. But it's not a death sentence for those who poured a bootstraps up. And if you don't have no booth find some. Because this is a man thinking game. Now checkers. Do you think the future is in stream. Showtime will be a man thinking game. Do you think the future is in stream. Showtime will pack up boxing. You think so. I'll be surprised if they got another year left. That's unfortunate because that leaves the zone that leaves ESPN plus. It's not as many options. Now that's where the creative creativity has to get in play now. You say you are you are who you are. This goes for everybody. It's all we all got blood on our hands and someone hold up. This is where any creativity now kicks in. You say who you are. You want to block now. You say who you OK. First of all you don't too much talk. It's being real. You got to try right away. This is the trying time. Now let's see who now can sink a swim. Golden boy also all of us. So now this separates the men from the fakes. Now if you've been fraudin. If you've been fraudin hide behind and you had a time limit when you go on exit and you prepare yourself. Then that's one that it should work good for that person that thinks that way. Their fighters on the other side they got. To pay every time they fight. And then the other entity. Joe Rogan has a promotion box and you got 10 fighters on your side. Just say I'm golden boy I got fighters on my side. You ain't seen could you hire somebody to do your business for you so you can hide back and hobby on the scenes but you you have knowledge of law so you know how to manipulate certain things. So if you risk. Having a contract Monday but knowing things can change as time go on you want to tie your Campbell. What do you mean. Well if the well runs dry if that fighter goes and fight at another house another promotion that you ain't no longer controlling. They fight the fighters now to start to look at the contract and say I give up 35 percent I give up 40 percent of my purse even though. Bob is doing a fight going and boys doing a fight. That's what promoters do. Now you realize and at the wrong time. Not a 10 at the telling in your career whether you're in your 30s you mention it the age normally 30 34 35 you normally pack an upper a roll out trying to get a couple of pitties here and there. Yeah. But there is. A real bad taste in a lot of business people TV and also fighters that realizing. Everything was great you bought your car you'd be out don't you got upkeep. You got to keep that lifestyle or you got to understand how to live different. And that's the shock that they're seeing now that they've been manipulated bamboozled. And the only thing which is not only but the only thing that some would say to justify. The dying kings of this era. They got paid. They got paid. You give ignorance money. They're going to be. More ignorant than they was when you gave them money but after they get money they will be smart because you gave money. Other than the business of boxing though. How do you feel about the sport. How do you feel about the sport today like the caliber of fighters. I'm sure you must be a fan Terrence Crawford. Yes one of my favorite guys to watch. Yes. Best switch hitter since Marvin says yes yes. You tried to promote that fight and he had a choice like we all do and he chose to do what he need to do. And he was successful with it. Absolutely a technical technical. Series mentally strong. And definitely can be around. Long as he want to. Yeah. Badass. Yeah he's a bad man. And there's there's a good crop of people like that today. Tank is another one. Yes phenomenal. Yes. No kid Austin is right on the hills right. Correct Bruce. And let me tell you you look. I can promote a lot of fighters you expecting me to mention a whole bunch of names got you know got this week. Zoto making a comeback after getting dominated right. Overseas. But that was the first shot in the CIA bounce back now. This is the career going forward. More gear. We got it's a lot of talent even on other side of the street. The next house next promotional house. There's so many fights. But you know what Joe doesn't mean squat if they don't get made. Right. You and fans around the world want to see the best fighting the best. We did a segment for four episodes of interviews interviews rather not episodes on fight news talking about fights that need to be made in the first one out of the gate pitting the pressure running his mouth here. Was tank Davis and Ryan Garcia. It's there. How did you think that fight was going to play out. I thought the fight was going to play out and I anticipated the fight playing out where Ryan will use all the attributes that he has to his best ability. What I mean by that is stay out length stay outside speed speed. Remember don't admire your work. Right. Don't be the don't be the squirrel with your head up looking for something. Keep it down. He mentioned it working in training that they was working on that they was focused on that reporters was asking you going to keep your head down. Of course that's the easy thing to ask but that's what he was known for. I I wanted and I believe Ryan when he said he's going to box him. He's not going to get into his emotions and try to show Bravo like he's getting to a shootout getting a shootout he done. Tank carries the power. He's sneaky. Explosive explosive. You think you're doing something and he rides off that overconfident. We're now he recognized this old school. He's so Baltimore Baltimore. He shows old school new old school is. Yeah. Anybody that throwing punches is open to get hit. Anybody in everybody that throw punches you leave an opportunity. It's who get there first. It's like fencing. When you throw punches no matter how straight no matter how your stance are when this becomes away from your body and things that you need to protect the ribs the chin. It's always an opening. It's always opening. Who's who get there first. And tank is so good. Tank is so good. Tank will give you something that's really not there. It's up to this is literally you know you think is you know by the three top the ball into three top hustle. You think is that you think he showed it to you think he did a couple of these. It's not there. Right. He shows you something that is like an illusion. Might not be the first time when he tried you and you go for it but it's coming. And that's how he said to a piece that traps. Yeah he said traps and he's got ridiculous one punch knockout power to. He's just such an interesting fighter because his style is so different from everybody else. He's so conservative in the early rounds. Throw so few punches and he lets you work. He lets you work and you're backing up and you're always afraid of that power and he's just moving in trying to find that opening where he just gets in there on your mind is burning energy. Yeah you physically burning energy because you know right. Even if you just touch you in an arm. You know based on what you've been hearing through the whole press conference and through the whole fights he had before then yourself that you better get it. Yeah. See power rules everything around you. One thing about power you could lose all the fights all the rounds and debt power. Come on. Yeah. Right. That would make the form is the Mike Tyson. John Day Wilder power power rules. Yeah. I got one shot and it's over. I can be losing a whole night. I can lose over to the 12th round and hit you with that power. And to get to the 12th 11th 10th 9th 8th you walking in treading danger. You walk into a minefield that any time any false any bad move. So yeah fighting tankers like that. Yeah. One last thing to talk to you about before we get out of here. What do you think about this crazy fight between Tyson Fury and Francis and Ghana. What do you think about them. I like Tyson Ferry though man. I like Tyson. Tyson Fury because of this unorthodox of even the way you look everything. Everything. Right. Now I ain't got to explain it to us because you're a wheel on the same page and I believe that that the world understands that this ain't just this ain't what we used to look at. We're talking about heavy weights. You're thinking of a guy. You want a guy look like Lennox Lewis. Correct. Chiseled. Right. Look at him. He likes he likes tricking you too. He shows that big belly. No. Listen he like he liked the guy Fred who do like my mechanic. Yeah. He handles all he but he I'm telling you he's an animal. He's an animal and he's promoted. Yeah. It's personality. Oh. You can't like. But what do you think about Francis and Ghana having a fight with literally one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. And he's never had a professional boxing fight. Again. How did he get there. We got there from being the UFC heavyweight champion. But that UFC. Yeah. Exactly. Listen if you listen. I can visualize you and I sitting right here. Right. You got the Dana White right now. OK. OK. You Dana. I consider Dana White a friend. Right. I really do. He's definitely a sports fan anything. Oh yeah. But look. Half of this is show the other half because of Tyson Furry only is a boxing match for for a belt. I assume right. There's some. Exactly. They got somebody to put something together. I got you. Yeah. Somebody payday. It's a payday. Right. Canelo payday. Yeah. This does nothing other than payday for Tyson Furry. He lose to a UFC guy which I'm saying he won't. I bet. I bet everything I love. I bet everything I love. Yeah. Entertainment on a higher level because of Tyson Furry. Right. But also because of the novelty of this UFC heavyweight champion leaving the UFC and securing this boxing anybody that leads the UFC undefeated or not undefeated would not be successful on that level or any level where a fighter on a boxing level has a heartbeat and possibly a pulse is going to be victorious. That's why it becomes a show more than the real deal. And that's why it's not even being talked about as a heavyweight fight from from a heavyweight fight that we know. Correct. Right. Because they don't we don't sanction that man. But does it upset you that this guy jumps in front of a sick jumps in front of Joshua jumps in front of anybody else in the division and gets to fight Tyson Furry or do you think hey good for him. He gets this payday because that's how I feel about it. Know how I feel. Because I love Francis and I'm happy that Francis is going to get a whopping bag. But let me. Now that's emotional. Yes. But in the sports and where I come from him buys to. Yeah. I think in Tyson Furry. Furry has a fruit top people that me and you would love to see in spite of who he's ready to fight. Correct. Usyk. Usyk is the first. Right. The big one. If Usyk not available I think that Tyson Furry would beat him. What about Wilder. Yeah. I mean Joshua. Yes. Right. Yeah. There's heavyweights out there. That's in a top five. I only say 10. That's better and have more credentials. Than what's happening. And there is. Correct. Yeah. Who to me. Why he think he he's trying to get a fight now. Yeah. Right. He's trying to get a fight as we speak right now. And not a big heavyweight. Right. In some cases you'll think of blowing up Cruiserweight. Right. Not a big guy. Right. Right. Right. You think they'd be chopping at the bit. They're going to make millions of dollars. That's right. There's more credibility. And more I guess what people want to see than entertainment that Tyson Furry is ready to show this week. And he gets to knock out within five rounds. He thinks so. Oh yeah. One other guy I want to talk to you about that I don't think gets enough credit is Arthur Bitterbeef. That guy's. That guy's a motherfucker. People don't know him. I mean he can't secure that big fight. And that's one of the reason why dangerous dangerous 19 and old 19. But this is the thing about the generation of fighters. Not all but most. They don't want. L on their record. Who would about. Your legacy. They want the bag of course but. They don't dare to be great. They want most of them want to fight the fights that they have a better chance of winning. And when you tell most of them of this generation. About history. They look at you like you got three heads like history like like you talking late 20s early 30s or younger. You talking about 25 years from now. They're going to be. And this is legit conversation. They look at you like. Twenty five. You talk until 90 year old. Who don't understand that time go by. So fast. So fast. Time go by so damn fast in boxing. I started at 25. Some fucking heard of. I started 25. I had the room based on lifestyle based on offense defense based on my mental. I stressed it out. Stressed out better than any part of that time. You got to look at the time I started late as a pro. Not as an amateur but as a pro. I ain't win no AUS and no Golden Gloves and no Olympic gold medal but I had regional I had local fights in the city. A little tournaments here in tournaments there. But but I look at all these things to answer questions that's asked all the time. The way I just said to you and explain to you about all these things. Whether it's the boxing politics the fights that's the fighters that's fighting now each other the fights that scheduled the fight right now. This is a great time for good fights to be made. Let's make them. Let's make them. Bernard your legend is an honor to have you on here. I really appreciate you being here. Best of luck with everything. Thank you very much sir. For real. Yes sir. I'm always been a giant fan. Thank you sir. Thank you so much.