4 years ago
Annie Jacobsen is an American investigative journalist, author and 2016 Pulitzer Prize finalist in history. Her latest book "Surprise, Kill, Vanish: The Secret History of CIA Paramilitary Armies, Operators, and Assassins" is available now.
I mean, I wrote a book about Operation Paperclip, and my God talk about a rabbit's hole. That's a rabbit hole. That's a rabbit hole. Let's explain to people that don't know what we're talking about. Operation Paperclip was when after World War II, the United States gathered up a ton of scientists from Nazi Germany, brought them over to America, and even Wernher von Braun. They had Wernher von Braun run NASA. He was a Nazi, like 100% Nazi. Good friends with Hitler type Nazi. Yes. He ran a Berlin rocket factory where they hung the five slowest Jews. They would hang them out front so everybody would know, like, this is what happens when you work slow. We'll hang you. I mean, the Simon Wiesenthal Center said that if Wernher von Braun was alive today, they would prosecute him for crimes against humanity. Yes, they would. And that was the head of NASA. That was the head of NASA. That was the guy who got us to the moon. That was the big cheese guy. Yeah. So we were willing to put a lot of really dark things aside in order to gather up the best scientists so that the Soviet Union couldn't get them all. And they got a few of them as well. But we got how many? More than 1,000, right? Allegedly 1,400, but I would not be surprised if, you know, the story changes and there were more, right? Yeah. But that goes back to our discussion earlier about being in pole position. I mean, that's why we grabbed those Nazis. We were like, if we don't get them, the Russians will. I get it. And I'm sure the Nazis could say, I didn't want to do it. They made me. I'm a nice person. I love Jews. Well, that was part of the mythology. It was like, we got the good Germans. Well, no, we didn't. We got the top Germans. And who do you think the top Germans were? They were coveted by Hitler, Himmler, Göring. You know? Yeah. I mean, these guys were... I mean, there were guys that we grabbed out of the docks at Nuremberg literally to come be part of our program, you know? Well, if you're smart, you're an asset, right? I mean, that's what Genghis Khan used to do. He'd take warlords from the other side and capture them and go, listen, just come over here, bro. Come on. Work for me. I'm the man. I mean, you know, ideology aside, I'm super smart and I want that to be known. That's kind of... Yes. That's the competitor, right? You cannot be the best rocket designer in the world and not want those talents demonstrated. That's Wernher von Braun's story. That's the story of all of them. And that was so shocking writing that book because it's like, wow, you know, huge amounts of talent. But how far will the competitor go to see their baby come to fruition? What are they willing to put aside? Yeah. Did you pay any attention to the other places where Nazis went when they escaped Germany, like Argentina in particular? Have you ever seen any of that stuff? I mean... They have entire German towns down in Argentina. Right. They do Oktoberfest down there. They wear Lederhosen. They drink out of Steins. It's crazy. They speak German. And you're like, what the fuck is this? Like my friend Tim Kennedy went down there and he said he was literally talking to people, interviewing people, and they had photos of SS soldiers on their wall. And they would talk about how grandfather was a hero. And they're like, you're the descendants of escaped Nazis. And they put together a town down there. I mean, the way the Nazis were able to flee is... I can't read enough of that. I mean, that's what Jamie and I were talking about. It's like, oh my God. And it's endless. I mean, they're so... The ones that we... There was a famous guy that we got. He was the Surgeon General of the Third Reich. I mean, think about that. Dr. Walter Schreiber. I mean, he was such a bad dude. He was in charge of the vaccine program. I mean, you just put those words together and your mind goes really dark. But we wanted him because he was an expert in vaccines. And we brought him to the United States. He was the only Nazi I found of the ones the paperclip signed to, says who came here, that was actually outed, right? He was outed as a Nazi. And that's because one of the investigators at the Nuremberg trials recognized him. Oh, Jesus. And he's the only one we got out of here. And guess where he went? Argentina. And lived out the rest of his life there. The show was called Finding Hitler. They were trying to find evidence that Hitler somehow escaped. It was really a bullshit premise of the show. But what was interesting is that there were thousands and thousands of Nazis that made it to Argentina and set up shop throughout South America. There's a lot of Germans down there. It's kind of weird. If you can imagine me on book tour of the kind of questions I get, because we're talking, right? Having written books about Area 51 Nazis, right? Assassins. How are you still alive? Just last night, I was at a book giving you a signing. And people were like, is Hitler really dead? Oh, god. I mean, right? Well, if he was alive, he'd be the oldest man alive. Right? Imagine? He was probably like, how old was he during World War II? He had to be in his 40s, right? He'd be hundreds. I mean, you know. Or they'd say, he cloned himself. He'd be 160 years old. He'd be 120 now. That's what he'd be. 1889. Oh, Jesus. Jamie knows. That's an old man. I mean, there's been 120-year-old people, but it's fucking pretty rare. Yeah. So Operation Paperclip was not even publicly acknowledged until, what was it, like the 90s? Like, when did it become public? I think it was through the Freedom of Information Act, wasn't it? It was this very intrepid journalist named Linda Hunt, who. Shout out to Linda. Yeah. I mean, but she broke the story. That's what's amazing. I mean, as a journalist, you're always writing on the shoulders of those before you, right? And she had it really hard, because she did a Freedom of Information Act request, got all these documents that no one had ever seen. And then the government sent her a bill for $125,000. And she had to spend a lot of time. This is what I understand. I never interviewed her. But for Xeroxing fees. What? Yeah. I just love that detail, because it's such a covert way of getting someone to stop. It's like, OK, here's the information we had to give it to you, but now here's your bill. Imagine if the government's coming down on you for $125,000. Yeah, see, that would make me want to call a bunch of rich people and go, hey, let's all just donate $1,000 to this lady. And it's a different world now. You could do that. You could do a GoFundMe campaign. 100%. But my god, in the 80s and the 90s, you were just like out on a limb. Yeah, they would crush you financially. We actually had this very same discussion yesterday with my friend Phil Demers, who's being sued by Marine Land. And because of he was a walrus trainer and trained orcas, and he's showing how horrific. It wasn't blackfish. That's SeaWorld. But SeaWorld is actually the way he says it's a day in the park compared to Marine Land. Marine Land's a horrific place in Canada. And anyway, they have been trying to squash him with legal fees by dragging out his case. But we set up GoFundMes. And all his legal bills get paid for from people that want him to win the good fight. And this is an option today that wasn't available to Linda when she was exposing this $125,000. Do you assholes? She should sue them for misappropriation of funds. Does it cost you really $125,000 to print those things out? If it does, you guys should be in jail. That's like with those $10,000 hammers that they have and the Pentagon. So she gets all this information. And does the government immediately acknowledge that they imported these Nazis? No. She wrote the first book, and it was just stunning. And you know, it was late 80s, early 90s. And then more gets revealed because they gave her a certain amount. I mean, I filed a bunch of FOYAs. There was releases. I went to Germany. FOYA, meaning Freedom of Information Act. Freedom of Information Act, yes. Then I went to Germany and looked in their archives with a fellow German PhD who had real access to stuff and was able to translate for me while we were there looking at this stuff. I interviewed a lot of grandchildren of Nazis and children of Nazis. And I mean, this one extraordinary, oh my god, there's a guy, I told you about Schreiber, right? On the narrative level, humans acting, I'm so interested in rivalry and competition, right? As a concept, because this is what America does to be the best, and also as humans, right? Because people are like that. They're built like that. So the Nazis had rivals amongst themselves. And Schreiber's rival was Dr. Blum, who was in charge of the biological weapons program for Hitler, OK? And Blum had a son. And Blum was prosecuted at Nuremberg. You can see a picture of him with a big dueling scar. He was a bad dude. He was a dueling scar? Dueling scar. Duel like a sword? Sword fighting. It was like among the Nazis, they would duel with one another when they were younger students. And then they would pack the wound with horse hair to make it even more pronounced because it looked ferocious. Really? Pull up, Jamie, pull up. I got a couple. What's his name? Well, you can pull up Dr. Blum, B-O-L-M-E. But also, yeah. Look at that big ass scar on his face. And also, if you pull up Kurt Debus, who was the director of our JFK Center, he was NASA's von Braun's number two. He had a huge dueling scar. And yet, when you look at there, he is right there. Knowing what we know now, it's like, come on. You're trying to tell me that guy's not a hardcore Nazi. So those guys had dueling scars on their faces. Yeah, you see him? How often did they duel? Well, when they were in college. When they dueled to the death? No, no, no, no, no. It was like, on guard. You know? Oh, with fencing? Fencing, fencing. Oh, this guy had it too. How did they not get poked in the eyes? Oh, I guess that was the gentleman's rule. How do you fuck? Listen, you're going for the cheek. You hit the eye. That happens all the time. I mean, they must have cut a lot of eyeballs out. I haven't seen any photographs of missing eyeballs. But there's a lot right on the cheek. So maybe that was the whole point. It was actually just a bit for show. Oh. Right? How weird. But it was a badge of honor. It was a badge of honor. Yeah. There's more. And but I. Wow. So they all had it on their face. It's all in the same spot, dueling scars. Yeah. Wow. So imagine like. They wanted to have these scars. That was a. Jesus Christ. Oh, they had goggles on. Oh, there you go. That's how they didn't take out the eyeballs. Academic fencing, it says. Academic fencing. So what they were essentially doing, they were having fencing matches with real swords, not with ones with tips. OK. Wow. And cutting their faces up. Fuck, man. Oh, Jesus. Look at this guy's face. Yikes. Wow. Dueling cults. That is crazy. So when you consider like that people did not know about that. And then you've got these Germans walking around America as part of our space program and our science programs. And oh, these are the good Germans. I mean, now you really have to say to yourself, come on guys. They're all Nazis. Right? Big ass fucking scars in their face. Absolutely. Wow. That's dark, man. The OG Fight Club. Yeah, right. OG. Super OG. Yeah. God, that's crazy. Wow. So I go to interview. Sometimes you, as a journalist, you can get amazing information from. Look at these guys. Oh my god. They're sliced up. Badger bomb. History of European martial arts. Yeah. What the fuck? Well, I mean, that is a martial art. I mean, it's an art of war. Really? Yeah, sword fighting is a martial art. I mean, many martial arts have weapons. Sorry. So you go to interview these people. So to piece together the story, right? I can't tell you. Others can, right? To find out more about the Nazis, I went to Germany and sought out some children of these top, top Nazis to see if maybe they didn't have journals or anything they might share with me. And one of them was Dr. Blum. His son, I tracked down. I found him. And he said, yes, you may come visit me. And it was such a remarkable journey. It was like he lived in the Black Forest. I had to take like a taxi through the mountains, up over the hill, down through the valley, into a courtyard behind a church to Dr. Blum's house. So he was the junior to his father, who was this horrific Nazi. I mean, a top Nazi had favor of the Fuhrer, were what was called the Golden Party Badge, right? Hitler gave out these little buttons. Blum's was, I believe, number six. So that's how favored he was. And his son, Dr. Kurt Blum, whereas the father was in charge of the biological weapons program. So his plan was to murder people with biological weapons from nature, right? The son had been a medical doctor, but had left the profession to cure people with flowers. It's called Bach Flower Therapy. So he was this very interesting individual who had never given an interview before. And he agreed to let me come to him. So I go on that journey, I go to his house. And he was remarkable. I mean, he was so interesting. Talk about the sins of the father. I mean, my God, what he had is a burden, right? And I asked him to tell me everything he could about his father, and he did. And then he asked me to tell me what I knew about his father. I had information from the German archives about his father that he did not have. Like what kind of stuff? Like that his father had given something, had just come from this archive and found these documents. Dr. Blum ordered that 6,000 tubercular Jews be given Sunderby handling. That's the German word. What does that mean? Special treatment. There is a euphemism for you. That was kill those 6,000 tubercular Jews. When you say tubercular, is that people with tuberculosis? Yes, they were suffering from tuberculosis. And Dr. Blum worked closely with Himmler. And they just decided to kill them. And sitting there talking to this man, telling him about his father at his request was remarkable. And then he's telling me what he knows. And then as I'm getting ready to leave, he says to me, I'd like you to have these. And he takes down from his incredible bookshelf. He himself had written eight books. And he takes down these books, and he hands them to me. And they're in these wrappers. And I can see that they have Nuremberg nomenclature on them. And what they are is they're his father's documents from his Nuremberg trial. And I'm like, I can't take these. I thought he meant take them back to my hotel room, look at them, and then bring them back the next morning when we were doing the next interview. And he said, no, no, no, I want you to have them. And I was like, I can't have them. And he said, I don't want them, and you should have them. And he gave them to me. So I had this stack. So I was like, on my trip home, it was so perplexing because I threw out all of my clothes. I was like, screw the clothes. I mean, I just travel with a carry-on bag, right? So in my carry-on bag, all I have is this Nazi pair of familiars that were just in Germany. That is Dr. Blums, the deputy surgeon general of the Third Reich's documents from Nuremberg covered with swastikas. Oh my God. He was acquitted at Nuremberg based on all these documents. And by the way, based on human experiments. And I'm at the airport and I realized suddenly, oh my God, swastikas, like this is illegal. If they go through my bag, I'm going to be arrested. I'm carrying, I mean, I'm carrying these incendiary. Do you have any copies of your book on you? So you can say, I made journalists, but other books. No, no, no, I was just like holding my breath. At least one. Joe, I was sweating almost as hard as I was sweating at the beginning of this interview, right? I think you're sweating harder. I was. I went through, because you know, I was like, wow, I went through no problem, got home, I have them in my office. Oh my God, so they didn't check anything. Nope, they didn't say boo. Lucky you didn't go through Israel. Oh my God. Well, you know what? It's not, the swastika is not outlawed there, but it is in Germany. You may not have any Nazi paraphernalia whatsoever. In fact, my paperclip book, which has a swastika on it, had to be redesigned, the cover for the German publication. And it just has like broken up images of the Nazis because you cannot reproduce that image in Germany. I mean, I'm not pro-s swastika, but it's so strange that we've given so much power to this design that you can't even see it. It used to be, there's a temple out here that I think is, I believe it's a Hindu temple. And it was a part of Hinduism, that this swastika predates World War II, it predates the Nazis, it predates their, their sort of reclaiming of it. And this building that was built out here in the 19, I think it was built in the 1920s, has swastika design, there's a big plaque explaining why there's swastika on it. I know they have it at a different angle. But I mean, talk about branding, right? I mean, my God, that was, and the Nazis were, you know, kings of that. I mean, they were all- Oh, probably that, the mustache. That guy killed that mustache. There's not another thing like that. But he didn't kill the dueling scar, right? That could come back. No, not after your show. What do you have, 4 million viewers? Probably. But people don't think about it that way. They don't think about the dueling scar as being a Nazi thing. No, no, that's what I find remarkable, right? They really don't. But the Nazis did. The Nazis did. And then you look, there's an amazing photograph of JFK, Lyndon Johnson, Kurt Debus sitting at, you know, for a launch, a moon launch. And there's Davis with his huge dueling scar. And I'm like, and their position was, oh, he's one of the good Germans. Well, that culture was a culture of ruthlessness. I mean, it was even the good ones. There he is. Yes. Good job, Jamie. Look at that. Can you believe that? That scar on his face. They still give out an award, by the way, that's called the Kurt Debus Award. And I rang them up and said, like, why are you guys giving out this award? He was a hardcore Nazi. What did they say? They were like, they've hemmed and hawed, and I finally said, well, at least tell me what you say to people who ask that question. You know what they said? No one's ever asked us that question before, Annie. Well, they will now. Jesus. It's, well, when you really stop and think about the horrific nature of what the Nazis did, I mean, how inhuman it was, how crazy it was, that had to permeate the entire culture. There is no good Nazis. There was not one. Even one of them that was looped into that had to be responsible for some awful, awful shit. I mean, Einstein said it the best when he said, you know, you could have left. Like, people who could have left should have left, right? Well, do you know the story of Fritz Haber, right? The guy who wound up having to flee, and he's the guy who created Zyklon Gas. He's, you know, he created Zyklon A, which had smell built into it so that it would warn you when you were using this pesticide. And then the Nazis turned it into Zyklon B, where they removed that element that added the smell and just this odorless, horrific, poisonous gas that they used to gas the Jews. And he was a Jew. I mean, you know, then when you think about it, he was no longer useful to them, because when they figured out he really was a Jew. Yeah, well, once World War II came around, see, he was a part of World War I when they first started using gas. And he was, there's a great Radiolab podcast about it. I think it's called The Bad Show. But anyway, what essentially says is that he was winning, he was up for the Nobel Prize at the same time he was wanted for crimes against humanity, because he was up for the Nobel Prize for creating the Haber method of extracting nitrogen from the atmosphere, which was used for fertilizer, which to this day, they say 50% of the nitrogen in human bodies was created by the Haber method. So what you get from food, from vegetables, like that nitrogen, 50% of it at least, is coming from this guy's method, who was a scientist, who was a Jew, who was working in Germany before it became Nazi Germany, and then was the guy who figured out how to use gas on people. It's a dark, his story is a dark story. He died looking for medical treatment, because he had to flee Germany. And he's had a bad heart, and he died on the road trying to get to Switzerland. I think it was Switzerland. Yeah. I mean, Nazi Germany is like the pole position taken way too far. And that's what's remarkable, that the Pentagon was like, okay, but we can learn from this. And there are elements that are dark in that. Well, it also comes out of the devastation of World War I. The economic devastation, the defeat, the Germans are in this terrible state overall in terms of their morale. And then along comes this charismatic psychopath that is just really good at screaming. To this day, I don't speak German, but to this day, when you watch that guy scream and yell at all those people and see them respond, it gives you chills. Like that kind of charisma, that kind of influence that someone has, where they can do that in front of thousands and thousands of people, and everyone's goose stepping, it's like, whoo, to see, we're very fortunate. There's not something like that right now. And our forefathers and our grandparents and whoever fought in World War II, if it wasn't for them, who knows where this world would be right now, because that was a literal evil empire straight out of Star Wars. I mean, that was like the Sith Lord. They really were. They were human beings who were doing some of the most evil shit that you could, almost demonic, if you really stopped and thought about it. If there were demons pretending to be people, they would do the same thing. I mean, that's why I think it's a rabbit hole, because it's so hard to comprehend that a culture of educated individuals, in that moment in time that you talked about between World War II, World War I and World War II, could completely become malevolent. Yeah, that's one of the more disturbing things about the Nazis was that there were so many of these people that they did extract through Operation Paperclip, brilliant engineers and scientists that were also evil. Like, those two things are very uncomfortable for us. We like to think of our scientists as being the people that are out there trying to solve the mysteries of the universe and provide us with the technology to make our life better here on Earth. Not the Nazis. They were trying to figure out how to kill people better. They were trying to figure out how to use rockets to shoot them at Europe and blow people up. And it is one of the more telling and horrific times in our history, because it's one of the more horrific ones that we have footage of, because we don't have footage of Genghis Khan. We don't have footage of Alexander the Great. We have stories and tales of Napoleon and some photographs and drawings of dictators, but we have a lot of footage from Vietnam. We have a lot of footage from World War II. We have a lot of footage from modern wars. And out of all of them, the one that scares me the most is World War II. Do you think those scientists, when they came here, because I could not figure this out even after writing that whole book, is like, do you think they came here and actually thought about what they had done or they were able to convince them themselves that they were the good Germans, that they were part of it? Because I never saw a single bit of remorse ever. Like no one ever acknowledged what they had done. So it made me wonder. I guess results vary, right? I mean, I think there's probably two people that go through the same thing, and one person has no problem with it, and the other person literally can't sleep. I don't know. It's a good question. It would be interesting to interview them. The ones who've been caught, who've been prosecuted and who've been chased down, they've got one fairly recently. They caught a Nazi just a few months ago. It's one of the last ones. He was in his 90s, I believe. The ones who survived, they all tell different stories. And some of them say they just were following orders, and some of them say that they didn't do it, they're being framed. They all have different stories. It's very... One of them, you write a book about that, or you think about it, and you kind of have, you go down the rabbit hole, and then you have to ask yourself, what does this mean? Or you kind of, it's too dark, right? And so I asked that question to a Auschwitz survivor, okay? Who I wrote about in the book. His name was Gerhard Michowski. And the reason he survived Auschwitz was because he was taken over to the labor camp, which was called Buna. So it was a rubber factory. And it was led by this truly evil man named Otto Ambrose, who became part of Operation Paperclip, okay? After being tried at Nuremberg and being convicted of mass murder and genocide, right? We got him out, and he worked for us. Really? You gotta read the story of it. I mean, it's just astonishing. Otto Ambrose, right? So the extractor. He was a chemist. Oh my God. Right? But he was, so Gerhard was at Buna, this factory, this rubber factory. And he lived, and I did an interview with him because I was asking him, you know, the flip side of all of that. And his whole family was killed at Auschwitz. And I said to him, what is any of, you know, we went through all these questions to try to get some closure to this, or some meaning. And I said, and then we landed on it, and I said, you know, we couldn't answer, what does this mean, right? What does it mean for today? Couldn't answer. So when I asked him, what matters about all this? He went like this. He lifted up his sleeve, and he showed me his tattoo. And he said, that matters. And I have that image seared in my mind. I had never seen a tattoo from Auschwitz before, and I have not since. And it also made me think, because I thought, he's gonna die soon, and he has died since. And then that tattoo's gone. So all you have is the exchange of information and people talking about it. Yeah. The eyewitnesses die. How did they get that guy out of Nuremberg? How did they get them to release him? Well, okay, so he was convicted at Nuremberg, then he went to prison. He went to the prison where we had all the- They didn't execute him? No, no. Obviously they did. They executed the top Nazis, and then a lot of these guys went to prison. So there was a bunch of trials. And so I went to the prison. I saw his cell, I mean, in Germany. It was intense, Landsberg prison. And then we, because we were sort of policing Nazi Germany after it was not, after the war was over, we were policing Germany. And then, and a guy named McCoy was in charge. She was kind of like the governor general of Germany. And the Germans wanted Germany back. And they were like, we're tired of you guys policing us. The threat from the Russians was very real. And so deals were made. I mean, I write about all this in Paperclip, based on the documents. And one of the provisions was, we want our guys out of prison. We want them back in society. And that was arranged. And again, you don't even know these things. They're like, but that was, and then Otto Ambrose, and they even gave him his money back. That was astonishing. And the family still has this villa in Switzerland, I believe, or maybe it's the Bavarian Alps that had been in the family, which is money from Nazi Germany. And I called up the son to interview him. He was not as forthright as Dr. Blum's son. And he hung up on me and said, if you ever contact me again, they have very serious privacy laws in Germany. I thought about going and knocking on his front door. My lawyer was like, Annie, do not do that. They have very different laws in Germany. For privacy. Yes. Even if you're the son of a Nazi. Yes, absolutely. Well, I would imagine, look, if he didn't do anything, he shouldn't be responsible for what his father did. No, but he has the villa. That was the point. He had all the money. And he got that money from his father who got that money from stealing it from people during World War II. Yeah, like what happens there? Yes. But if you go back to that, we should really find out who had the plantations in America and who benefited from that. Go several generations from there. You could get weird with war. Reparations are big. And with evil deeds where people profited. I mean, which is sometimes a reason why I realize in looking at these and reporting these books, which is why certain things are kept secret. I mean, they open up a whole can of worms about reparations. Sure. You know? Yeah, wow. Was Operation Paperclip writing that book? Was that one of the most disturbing ones for you? That was dark. I mean, that was so dark. My husband is amazing. He's Norwegian, right? And Norway was occupied by the Nazis for five years. People kind of forget that. But he grew up there and his mom was a grade schooler and was really impacted. Didn't go to school for five years while the Nazis were there. They were gonna breed with the Norwegians because they were such lovely Aryan people, right? So my husband having a Norwegian mom was like, when I was writing Paperclip, it would be so dark sometimes. I would be like, down in my office, like I can't, you know, honey, I can't eat. Ah! And he'd be down there with a sandwich or coffee and say, but are you throwing another Nazi under the bus? And I would say, yes. And he'd say, keep typing, right? And then I realized, well, wait a minute. The neutral journalist has to really make sure that she's not just throwing Nazis under the bus without really good reason. And so when I was in Germany at the archives, I went to Dachau, the concentration camp. And I asked the lead archivist if I could come and see the worst possible photographs that no one wants to see. And he said, absolutely. And I didn't write about them in the book because I didn't want to subject people to that kind of horror. But I looked at them and I watched, I saw with my own eyes, people moments before they were killed, you know, and then the bodies afterwards. And these are in human experiments, you know, to see whether or not pilots could survive height or, you know, they simulated different things in chambers at high altitude or speed. And I saw photographs of, you know, freezing people to death, right? Because they were trying to develop programs where they wanted to see at what temperature humans actually died, right? And so they experimented on Jews. These are some of the doctors that came on our programs. And I looked at that evidence and that blew me away. And then I knew when I left there, okay, I can throw these Nazis under the bus. It is such a crazy time in history where you really stop and think about all the different experiments that they did do. It's almost like they just opened up the vault of evil and said, listen, we have an opportunity. These people aren't people. Let's do whatever we want. It's like they're fake people. It's like they were an invention. I mean, the perception really played into it. So gross. It's so scary to think about that humans just, you know, you know, a generation or two away, they're capable of doing that.