Joe Rogan | Should We Be Concerned with North Korea? w/Jamie Metzl

Interesting. What else should we be concerned with? Would you be concerned with anything that North Korea is doing? Oh, absolutely. So I have spent a lot of time in North Korea. Yeah, that's why I brought it up. Yeah, so I've advised the North Korean government on the establishment of special economic zones, which I certainly believe if North Korea could have economic growth and integrate into the rest of the world, that would be great. And so I- When was this? You went over there? I was in 2015, but I've been there twice, crossed the border from China and zig zagged the country by land, visited 10 or 12 different sites. So spent almost two weeks by land. So I've really- What was that like? Incredible. I mean, North Korea, one, it's the most organized place I've ever seen. I mean, there's not a- anywhere. There's like on the side of the road, the stones are all raked. There's not a stick. Every little line is drawn. It's like total control. In the agricultural areas, there were very few machines and very few farm animals. So I saw people pulling plows. Like you know, you usually have the animal in front of the plow and the person behind here. There were like two people in front of the plow and one person behind. The people were the animals. And we would go and visit these, just because they didn't, a lot of the animals got eaten when they had their famine. And so we visited these different sites for these special economic zones and they would say like what they had done and what they were thinking about doing. And I would say like, how do you, do you know anything about the market? Like what are you going to sell here? And they said, well, we know about clearing land and building a fence. And then we went to Pyongyang and I spoke to about 400 economic planners. And I said, look, I know you have these plans to do these special economic zones. It's totally going to fail. The way it's going to work, you have to connect to the market economy. You have to empower your workers. You need information flow. How else are you going to learn and adapt? So North Korea, it's a really dangerous place. And now it's even more dangerous because President Trump through, it was this kind of nonsensical Hail Mary in these meetings with Kim Jong-un. There was never any indication that the North Koreans were planning on giving up their nuclear weapons. They never said they would. It's the last thing they would do because their goal is survival. And so there was this kind of head fake, which was like a PR stunt to be able to say, all right, we're having these meetings. And of course the North Koreans weren't ever going to give up their nuclear weapons. They're still not. So now things are ramping up. So North Korea in the last couple of days has started firing missiles again at the United States today. And the US military seized a North Korean ship. So we're going back to this very dangerous place. And so I think we really need to do a much better job. We need much more. North Korea is really hard and these guys are really smart. I mean, they are very, people say, well, these guys are poor. They must not be, I mean, like we're playing cards with them. We've got the whole deck. They don't have anything, one card. And yet they're in the game. They're holding us to a stalemate and it's really worrying. And why did you go over there? Like what were you thinking? So I thought a lot about it because I have a background in human rights. I was a human rights officer for the United Nations in Cambodia. I'm the child of a refugee. I have this very strong belief in human rights and in supporting people. In North Korea, they have about 120,000 people in the most brutal, horrific prison camps. And so when I was asked to be part of this six person delegation advising them on the establishment of Special Economics, one instinct was, screw them, I don't want to be part of this at all. But I also felt that if North Korea could have some kind of integrated economic development, that would at least connect them to the world that would create some kind of leverage and that would help people. So I decided to go. And I'm glad that I did, but these are really hard art issues. It's very unfortunate that in President Trump's negotiations with the North Koreans, human rights was never once mentioned. I think that that's coming back to values. We have to be clear about who we are and what we stand for and be consistent in fighting for it. Do you think that Trump didn't bring that up because he wanted to be able to effectively communicate with them and not put them on their heels? Maybe, but I feel like had they done anything that if he thought that there was a real chance of progress, but the hard thing was he didn't know much about the North Koreans. He has people, we have brilliant people working in the United States government and all of those people, all of the US intelligence agencies were telling President Trump that the North Koreans have absolutely no intention of giving up their nuclear weapons. And so maybe he did think that he would charm Kim Jong-un or he would say, hey, we're going to give you economic development or whatever. But I think for most people who were observers of North Korea, who had watched it for a while, thought that was not a, so we gave away a lot. So we didn't mention human rights. We suspended our military exercises. We gave them the legitimacy of a presidential meeting, which they'd been wanting for 30 years and we didn't get anything back. So had we gotten something back, then you could say, well, that was a risk worth taking, maybe. Yeah. I haven't heard described that way, but I'm agreeing with what you're saying. What do you think he could have done differently though? I don't think the meeting should have happened with no, no conditions. So if he had said, I'm open to meet with the North Koreans, which is something the North Koreans have always wanted, we could have met with the North Koreans anytime immediately for the last 30 years. But in order to do it, they need to do this, this, and this. And if they do it, we'll meet. That would have been a legitimate thing. But what he said is somebody, the South Korean National Security Advisor, peeked into his office and he goes, hey, they want to meet. And it was like, sure, that seems like an interesting thing to do. And I think that with this diplomacy, you kind of have to get something. And so we gave away so much upfront and the North Koreans didn't have an incentive to do anything in return. Was his perspective that it would be better to be in communication and to be friends with this guy? Was that what you were saying? It could be, but we have real interests in the sense that we have large military forces in Seoul. We have a lot at stake. We have our closest ally, Japan, who's had citizens abducted. And so I think that was what he thought is like, let's be friendly. And then with the force of personal chemistry, everything will unlock. But I think that was always extremely unlikely. What do you think is going to happen to that country? I think eventually, and I've written this, I think eventually this regime will collapse under its own weight, but it's really held out a long time because you think of the collapse of the Soviet Union. They had enough, Soviet Union had enough bullets to survive. If they had said, you know, we're just going to shoot everybody at the Berlin Wall and every dissenter, they would still be the North Korea has essentially murdered millions of people. So with famine and execution and prison camps. So I think they're going to stay for a while, but eventually there will be leaders in North Korea who will come to the conclusion that it's safer to oppose the Kim family than to wait for the Kim family to come and get you. And that tends to happen in these kind of totalitarian systems where there's so little trust. There's so little loyalty. Jesus. Yeah. What are their conditions like technologically? What is their infrastructure like? So the general infrastructure is absolutely terrible. I mean, they have roads in the big cities that are actually quite nice roads because there's no cars. But their infrastructure is terrible. I mean, all of their power supply, they have brownouts, blackouts all the time. Their manufacturing is all being decimated. So it's terrible, but they have really focused their energy on building these nuclear weapons because they think that these nuclear weapons give them leverage to do things and to extract concessions and to get it. It's terrible infrastructure. So they don't have an internet, right? But they have something similar, but it only allows them access to a few state run websites? Well, average person doesn't have access to the internet. So the way it works is it's all about loyalty. So you need three or so generations of loyalty to the Kim family to even set foot in Pyongyang, the capital. Really? Yes. So it's not like you can kind of move around or whatever. It's like just to be in the capital, like you have to have your loyalty proven. And so average person out in the country, they don't have access to much of anything. They have a little bit more now than they did in the past. And then for this relatively small number of elites who are largely in Pyongyang and in the other cities, which are like there's a ring of defense around these cities. And just to enter, you have to have all of these checks. Some of them have access to limited internet, but it's tightly controlled and it's not like you're kind of going on Google and going wherever you want. Right. And they probably would get in trouble if they Googled the wrong thing. Yes. And trouble, it's not just you trouble. Like if my brother or my uncle does something that gets me in trouble with the regime, the whole extended family is out. And that means you either you go to prison camps or you're kicked out of Pyongyang. I mean, it's all about collective punishment. People are terrified. And by that ruthless punishment structure that they've set up, that's how they've kept control of the country. Yeah. And everybody's forced to rat on each other, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They're actually compelled to tell on each other for one thing that you did. If you don't, then what? If you don't, then you are complicit. Complicit. Because, yes, so that's, and that's these horrible stories. I've met a lot of these people who were in the prison camps. Like I have a friend of mine, I mean, she was this 13 year old girl and her father was a low level North Korean official. And then he was accused of something. And so this family that was privileged all of a sudden was out and just these horrible things and prison and rape and this little, I mean, now she's in the United States and incredibly positive. It's amazing how resilient she is. But this is like a real hell. It's an issue. And I think that for us as Americans, as humans, we're less human when there are people who are suffering like this. Yeah, I agree. Now you were traveling all over North Korea. What were they having you do while you were out there? So what we would do is we would go from one of these special economic zones to the other. And in each one, it was kind of the same story. You'd get there, there'd be like a big field. The farmers had been kicked off. There was a fence around it. And then the group of the local officials would come and they'd have like a big chart. And they'd have a plan, like here's where we're going to build this building. And I would always ask the same question, like, what are you going to do here? Why do you think you're going to be competitive? How do you know what the market prices are? How are your workers going to be empowered so they can change things? I mean, in the old days, it used to be you just kind of have these automaton workers. Now workers are actually making big decisions and fixing things. And they didn't have an answer to any of those questions. And that's what happens when you have these totalitarian top-down systems is that like being creative is actually really dangerous. So if somebody says, do X, you just do X. Wow. Yeah. No, it's really incredible. And it's so sad because I spend a lot of time in South Korea. And this is the most dynamic place. There's like, often I go to Seoul just to see what technology is going to show up here a few years in the future. I mean, Seoul is like the future. And then just 35 miles from Seoul is the demilitarized zone. And the other side, it's incredible. And the real problem would be once they finally did get free of that community or of that, I mean, you can call them whatever you want, the dictator and his family. What tools would they have? Like how prepared would they be to be autonomous? Well, it's really the good thing, the benefit that they have if there is... So here's my thought of what a scenario might look like. I mean, I think eventually, probably there'll be some kind of coup attempt against the Kim family. Let's just say it succeeds. But that would probably result in another military dictatorship with another group. Well, we don't know because then I think immediately I think the Chinese would invade. Really? Yeah. Because people think of the Korean War from the early 1950s. They think, oh, it's the Korean War. It must have been the Americans fighting against the Koreans. The Korean War, the two sides was America and the South Koreans fighting against the North Koreans and the Chinese. The Chinese did the most of the fighting. And so China, North Korea is the only country in the world that has a treaty alliance with China, kind of like we have with Japan and with South Korea. And so China, their biggest fear is having a reunified Korean Peninsula allied to the United States. I think if there was a coup, the Chinese would immediately move in militarily. Then immediately there would be this call to have some kind of UN body. And there would be a call for a UN authority. And then I think it would be agreed that the Chinese would stay and they just would put on blue helmets, like as a UN force. And then we'd have to negotiate what happens next. And I think what the Chinese would do is say, well, we'll leave when the Americans leave. I think that would be what will likely happen. But eventually, I think we're going to see a Korean reunification. And the good news of these reunified countries like East and West Germany, is there's a whole system of law that is just North Korea will be swallowed into South Korea. And then you have law, you have an infrastructure and it'll take one or two generations. But I think that will eventually happen. And I'm hoping it can happen without nuclear war, terrible bloodshed, but it's going to be a big challenge. God damn. That sounds insurmountable. Just hearing you talk about that, about North Korea getting absorbed by South Korea. I'm like, oh my God, good luck.