Joe Rogan Talks to Bob Lazar About Technology, Evolution, and Alien Life

So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles. Right. Perhaps. But they all have the same power source. They all have the same power source. And we're also dealing with, if you think about the laws of technological progression, you know, you think of Moore's law and you think of how things accelerate, you've got to think that if this civilization is who knows how many years more advanced than we are, if not even years, I mean, I mean, we're thinking about in terms of conventional terms, right? The way we look at the world. I mean, they might be just superior in terms of their intellect. They've got to be. Maybe. Maybe. We don't know, right? I say that is because, look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go to an internal combustion engine and then, you know, electric power, nuclear power and go up the ladder that we can't wait on. You know, the binary, if this stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system and they have heavier elements that we don't have and this element, stable element 115 is a naturally occurring material, maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with and the version of their steam engine, their first product was something that operated like this and actually when they came to earth to look around or, you know, whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing. These guys burned stuff and squirted out the back to go forward. So, you know, who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that? My thought was if you went back to the 1400s and then you went from 1400 to 1500, you're not going to see that much of a difference technologically. If you go from 2000 to 3000, I assume there's going to be a radical change. Right. Well, yeah, the delta, the rate of change is magnificently higher than it used to be. Right. So, if you think about what they had in 1988 and you think about what they probably have in 2019, just logically seems like they would advance. I would think so. The only question is like, are they living? Is that a living thing in terms of like a biological thing or are they some sort of an artificially created creation like we are working on right now? I mean, we're in the middle of working on artificial reality, artificial beings, sentient beings, artificial intelligence, there's silicon based life forms that they're essentially trying to create. Boston, or was it Boston Dynamics at the company? These are robots. Yeah. They make machines out of flesh, right? So, a cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, that's what a lot of people think those like gray things are, that people call the grays. Yeah. Is like they were like, they're machines printed from flesh. So what you're saying is like not so far off. Well, they could just be synthetic life. Synthetic life. They don't even need to be machines. Right. Well, they seem to have no sex organs, the way they're described by people that have had interactions with them, assuming these people aren't liars or crazy or whatever. They have no sex organs and that they don't seem to have any muscle that is almost like a frame and they have enormous heads. I mean, if you look at Australia Pythicus or depictions of ancient hominids and then you go to human beings, one of the things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies. Well, you see a clear progression of evolution too, where something like that, I would lean towards a synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task. There's no reproductive organs. So I mean, that almost kind of leaves out any kind of physical evolution. Right. Well, that's also our bottleneck, right? Our bottleneck is our biological imperative, the need to breed emotions, fear, anxiety, all these different things that exist in order to force us into making sure we reproduce. I mean, that's essentially what it is. Human reward systems that aren't necessary once they can figure out a way to make some sort of sentient artificial life. Some sort of thing that doesn't have these biological limitations that we have. By the way, these craft, all these different kinds have been reported because it was confusing. I always thought of flying saucers, what I heard Bob Lazar talk about, flying saucer, right? But if you look back in history, people have always reported the weirdest shapes, like none of them are alike. There are other saucers, but you got cigar shaped, you got the top hat shaped, you have orbs. Why? Maybe they're serving different purposes. They're doing different things like we'd use different tools. And I want to be clear, the reason I know that memo is real is because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, six men to walk on the moon. Last guy to film him before he died, right? That's how I know I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from anywhere else. I know because of Dr. Mitchell and he said the same thing. Maybe these things are performing different tasks, you know? And that's why- If you think about what an alien is in terms of our, the sort of iconic image of an alien, like the Steven Spielberg, closing columns are the third kind alien. They seem like what we'd assume a human being would eventually become. And if these things are tiny, human beings are smaller than they've ever been before, they're weaker than they've ever been before, and there seems to be a trend in that direction. And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression. There are a lack of need for muscle strength and a lack of need for violence. And we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have. If we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world. You know, that one day we- Okay, I'll buy this. Yeah, McLuhan was brilliant. And that quote has always been one of my favorites, because okay, what are we doing when we're constantly technologically innovating? We're constantly looking for faster cars, better computers, bigger screens, faster, more resolution, more pixels, more this, more that, higher bandwidth, 5G, 10G. What are we doing? We're moving into this, if you just follow it objectively, stand back, don't attach yourself or your civilization, your culture to it, and look at what it is. We're moving 100% towards technological innovation. If you looked at this species from afar, and if you weren't a part of it, you would say, well, what does this species do? Oh, they make things. They make things better every year. Beehive is the same fucking thing that you see 10 years ago. You go by, you see a beehive, it's amazing, it's cool, but they're the same fucking thing. They figured out how to do it, they make a beehive. We don't do that. We make better things constantly. What would you do? And at some point, I think that technology is going to fuse with us. Yes. And we're going to become ... That's already happening. Yeah. And Elon Musk talked about it on my podcast, that we are cyborgs. You just carry it in your pocket. It's a phone. It answers any question you want. You can talk to it. It'll give you the answers instantaneously. It navigates you. It has all your phone numbers in it. It has all your contacts. You can get a hold of people, people listening to you through it. It's connecting us in ways even involuntarily. Haptics, that kind of thing. It's also getting on your wrist. How many people have iWatches, Apple watches? They're putting on their wrist. Right. And that's only because we can't integrate them yet, but if you know that point, it's coming. 100%. Yeah. I didn't joke about it last night, but I have a bit about it that I do, about the integration between humans and technology. What would you do if you were a hyperintelligence, right? Would you do the work yourself, or would you create some cool things called humans to do it for you? Would you create things that are cybernetic organisms to come in with machines and do it for you? If you're a hyperintelligence that has kind of changed like you've described, you'd probably create workers, right? Well, that's a vast conspiracy theory. I'm not talking about conspiracy. But it is a kind of a conspiracy. I'm asking you. Well, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily that. I mean, you could look at it that way, but that is the way a conspiracy theorist would look at it. The way I would look at it is like there's obviously a progression going on, a biological progression. There's some sort of an integration with technology. There's some sort of imperative, this need for technological innovation. It's inescapable. Everyone has it. And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way, because so many people work so hard to get new things. And like, God, that seems so illogical and preposterous, and it makes people unhappy, and depression's on the rise, but nobody seems to be able to stop it. Like why is that? Well, maybe it's because we are the electronic caterpillars that give birth to the butterfly. Maybe that's what we're doing. Not good, very well, maybe. What our job is to do is to make some sort of a cocoon. We don't even know we're doing it while we're doing it. Do you think a caterpillar is a well, hey caterpillar, what are you doing? Man, I'm doing my thing. It's my job. I have to make a cocoon. Then I'm going to become a butterfly. This could be a natural part of evolution. It could be. That we're just supposed to do this. Exactly. And make the jump to some sort of mechanized... Right. Yeah, non-biological. Have you ever seen an orangutan that is fishing with a spear? No. They've figured out how to fish with spears. There's primatologists that we've been talking about. Wait, without somebody showing them how to fish? No, they've imitated human beings doing it. And now they do it, but they do it independently. They're not trained orangutans. They're wild orangutans. Look at that. There's a wild orangutan spear. Oh yeah, that's impressive. That's impressive. Well, there's these primatologists. I guess you would call them primatologists, that's the term? That's a great one. Biologists. I believe that monkeys and chimps and some of the great apes are moving into the Stone Age. That they've currently entered the Stone Age. They're not staying what they were 100,000 years ago or 500,000 years ago, but they're actively using tools and they're experimenting with different ways to use those tools. And then they're making tools out of stone. They're making tools out of sticks and they're using them. Well, this might just be what happens. This might just be what happens. I mean, why else? Why the fuck do we work so hard? I mean, I was driving to LA this morning. I had a doctor's appointment, so I was on the 405 at eight in the morning. Jesus Christ. Like, this is so crazy. When you're on the 405 in LA at eight o'clock in the morning, you see literally a million cars. And it's just everywhere you go, it's people. And also, I'm in a Tesla, so I have it on autopilot. So I'm there sitting, I'm listening to a podcast. I barely have my hand on the wheel. I'm not touching shit. This car is driving me along. I'm not even doing anything. I'm just hanging out. It's so much less stress, by the way, to do it that way. So it encourages you to innovate. It encourages you to embrace this new technology. I got this giant screen. It's showing me the navigation in front of me. Oh, I'll be there five minutes early. Excellent. And I'm listening to a podcast wirelessly. It's Bluetooth streaming from my phone and I pulled that podcast, which came out today out of the fucking sky. And I'm listening to it and I'm all comfortable in my nice little car, just driving on my way to the doctor's office. This is irresistible stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's different than your Walkman, you know, back in the day. It is irresistible. It is irresistible. It's frighteningly irresistible. But is it frightening? I mean, if you were a monkey, right? If you were an Australia pithicus, would you go, man, I don't want to fucking be a person and live in a house. That's bullshit. I like just swinging around on trees. I like running from jaguars. This is life. Guys, life is running from crocodiles. It's not living in a fucking suburb. No, there's probably some that are like that. Yeah, I don't think so. I think I think when it comes, we're going to embrace it. We're going to embrace it the same way you embrace cell phones, the same way you embrace television. There's going to be a few holdouts. I don't even have an email address, man. Those are those. There's a few and far between the good luck with that fuckface. Go move to the woods. Ted Kaczynski. Yeah, I was just going to throw Ted. Oh, man. Ted Kaczynski was right. This is something that I think about sometimes when I get really high that Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies. This has been proven. Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his fucking brain when he was at Harvard. And then when he went over to Berkeley and became a professor, his goal was to make enough money so that he could implement this program and live in the woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology. He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way. This is something my friend just called me about. So there's this private library, and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university. He was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it. I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe. I want to be very careful with that word conspiracy theorist. What I was saying to you was we terraform our earth, right? We terraform. We change the environment. We do all this innovation. What is stopping us from thinking that that's not being done? I'm not saying it is. I'm saying what's stopping us from thinking that that's being done on a much bigger level, on a cosmic level. You mean like aliens coming down, doing that to humans? I'm telling you that there is something here. There's a fact. There's something. They're a craft. They're here. They're not ours. They're here. So the question is, what is that about? And I'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology. I think it's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps and we observe that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there's steps that happen. I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization and that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach this. A type one civilization. We're going to stay at type zero. Well, we're in this warring, polluting, pillaging civilization. Humans are awesome. Well, we're awesome in a lot of ways. But in that way, we're not. Yeah, we're children that have immense power that we didn't really... The other thing is, you're using the immense power that other people have created. I mean, even when you're driving a car and you're stomping on the gas like, whoo, you didn't invent the engine. You didn't invent tires. There's all these things that were involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding, but yet you have the ability to use it. Like a person with a gun. I'm just going to bang, bang, bang people. You didn't invent a gun. So without the intellect to craft and engineer and manifest these creations, you just have access to them because you have paper or you have Bitcoin or you have whatever the fuck you're using, using a credit card. Now you have almost no responsibility. You could just flippantly use these things, which is why we were very childlike in our actions because we haven't had to earn the responsibility. We haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have and you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things. And then they've all put them together. And then what's the reason to put them together? The profit. Well, what's the reason to profit? Well, why are you doing this? So you can buy more things. Well, what are we doing? What are we doing? We're making better things. That's what we do. That's all we do. That's all we do is make better things. Yeah. Why the fuck do we need oil? Why can't we just burn wood and stay home? Why can't we grow chickens and food in the backyard? Why can't we do it? Well, we fucking can. We certainly can. People do do it. But we decide to make that almost impossible. Our preferred way of living is to stuff everyone into a very small area where no one grows anything other than weed. This is what LA is. LA is 20 million people with hard surfaces, as many hard surfaces as you can. Boy, if you've got an acre backyard in LA, holy shit, look at all that grain. This is amazing. No, that's the fucking earth coming through this weird sort of creation that we've put on top of the earth. But the goal is that, like New York City, there's none of it, right? You've got Central Park and they just got human shit stacked up. No one's growing anything. And then constant work. Everyone's up early. Go, go, go. Innovate, progress, make that money so you can buy more things. And every year, hey, Apple, where's this fucking new phone? As if your phone isn't good enough. Your phone's taking pictures and videos and people are calling you and you've got applications that tell you which way the wind's blowing. It's not good enough. A blink of an eye. A blink of an eye. It's all gone, though, that 10,000 years and the Hoover Dam goes or whatever. Mount Rushmore disintegrates. So it's amazing because we have created that and everything's trying to spring up through that. We keep it maintenance down, but we're a blink, man. Something hits. But we don't think that way. You think in terms of your own life, right? You think in terms of what you want and what you need right now. We are in many ways this combination of this weird primitive ape-like thing with the ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique. On top of that, with existential angst and fear. So what do you do with that? We fucking water it down with anti-depressants. Give these fucking people some shit that keeps them moving. They're worried about the future. They're trying to figure out what reality is. You're on a goddamn convertible spaceship, spending 1,000 miles an hour hurling through infinity. There's no meaning to this thing. Just keep making shit. Keep making stuff. And then one day they're going to be able to hit that switch and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology. And more than likely, it's probably going to be what we're seeing that these things are that you're observing. I'm not observing them, but yeah. Are you implying that they're us? I don't think they're us, but I think they are what happens when things keep going. It's not us, just like we're not monkeys, right? I'm not a chimp. Oh, that'd be cool. They're from here, is your idea. No. No. No, that this is what happens all over the universe. Right. Yeah, totally. This is what happens. Look, here's the thing. You know, I went to see Brian Cox's. He has this amazing live show with Robin Ince where they have these LED screens, these huge screens with high resolution depictions of the cosmos. And one of the most mind blowing things was he has this large scale image of the universe and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions. And it's fucking incredible. But what's stunning is the relative uniformity of it, even at, you know, I mean, you're obviously looking at an incredibly small depiction of something that's immensely large, like a galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars. You're seeing it as this little dot, but this little dot that's flying through space surrounded by other little darts with very similarly spaced distances. Yeah, homogenous all through, yeah. So Mike, if we see uniformity in that form in terms of like the distance between galaxies, like so many galaxies, it's so similar. They might vary slightly and that slightly might be hundreds of millions of light years, right? But there's so much uniformity. Why would we not assume that that uniformity exists pretty much everywhere and that all these things that you're seeing that are so similar, you do see binary star systems, you do see single star systems like, but there's also some speculation that Earth and that our solar system is one time was a binary star system.