"Going Clear" Writer Lawrence Wright Talks Scientology and Tom Cruise

One of the most bonkers things in our culture today. Yeah. Amazing. That Scientology is like still, I mean I passed by the Church of Scientology here just the other day. I was like, oh, still works. Yeah, they've just moved it. When the documentary came out, some woman had just gone to see it at the movie theater and it was on the drag, you know, on Guadalupe across from the university. And she drove her car through the plate glass windows of the Scientology building and she didn't stop there. She drove around the lobby a little bit knocking over bookshelves and stuff. I had to issue a statement deploring violence in any form. Was she a victim of it? No, she had just seen the documentary and she was really worked up. Wow. That's a hype. She might have some other issues. Yeah, she might. Maybe Scientology could have helped her ironically. Yeah, I could have been. There might have been a course for that. Well, it's a weird thing when you see so many people that are so successful that are Scientology. At least you used to see that. I had a neighbor who was one of the nicest guys and he was a great guy who was in my old neighborhood and he was a Scientologist. And I found out in the most bizarre way because there was a piece of land that was for sale and he was talking about this piece of land about possibly purchasing it, but he was going to have to put it off because he needed $50,000 because his wife was going clear. Right. It was like a scene in a movie where the record skips. And I went, what? Like, what are you doing? And this was me of, you know, I was probably 28 at the time, 29. The podcast has radically changed the way I look at things because I've had a chance to educate myself and have all these conversations with brilliant people and just enough of these conversations where I have a different perspective. But back then, I really didn't know too much about Scientology other than I had bought a book from Dianetics online, not online rather, on television, late night TV, 94. And they wouldn't stop sending me these pamphlets asking me to come to all these various meetings and this and that and sending me all these things for programs they have and discounts. And I mean, I was in one way, I was kind of, I admired their hustle. I was like, this is these guys don't stop. Right. Like they just kept sending this shit to my mailbox. I thought it was like a self-help book. And I would always been in the like Anthony Robbins and all these different, I was into motivation. Like what can I get that's going to help me like work harder or succeed better? You know, whatever. So I saw this thing and it was like, wow, this seems very compelling. And I knew that there was a bunch of famous people that were Scientologists like Tom Cruise and all. I was like, maybe this is maybe this is legit. And I was reading it and I was like, this boy, this is like seems odd. It seems off without getting too much into it. So when I talked to this guy who is my neighbor, really didn't have a deep background. And understanding it. But that was the beginning of me like really getting into it, like talking to him and finding out like how much money he had to spend and what was it about? And like, what did they do for you? And they he was explaining how nothing would ever influence you again. No negative influence. That's going clear, Matt. That was probably one of the first times I had ever heard that expression. Yeah. I first saw my I ran into it was when I was in college and I was my girlfriend and I were living in an apartment above this little storefront and it was Scientology. And I'd never heard of it before. And they showed me the meter and stuff like that. And I just thought I thought it was interesting. You know, I wasn't put off by it. I was, you know, I thought maybe so. I didn't pursue it. How old were you at the time? I was 21. 21. Yeah. And, you know, it was I've always been interested in religions. You know, it's one of the themes, I guess, of my work and why people go into one religion rather why they believe one thing rather than another. Because in America, you can believe anything you want. And you know, it's not true in a lot of countries, but in our country, there's a smorgasbord of religions you can choose from. If you don't see something, you know, you can make up your own. And you know, it's a very fertile religious culture, which interests me. And I, as a reporter, I think about how people have strong political beliefs and it doesn't affect their behavior at all. You know, you know, a lot of people like that, I'm sure. But you know, if you have powerful religious beliefs, it determines your life. And you know, as as journalists, we should pay more attention to that. So I've always been intrigued by different religious manifestations. So Scientology was on my list. I had wanted to write about it. And because they're, you know, they're always scaring everybody with, you know, legal threats or you know, shakedowns and stuff like that. Does they still do that or have they kind of backed off from that? Oh, the people that some of my sources for that, you know, they hounded them mercilessly. And you know, they hire private investigators. They're not, they're not doing the job that private investigators are, you know, they're doing is not so much to sneak up on your, you know, go through your trash, although they do that, it's to intimidate you. And, you know, they had somebody following me around for a while, mainly to my public events, you know, when I was making speeches. I'm in a band and he came to one of my gigs. What kind of band you in? It's a blues band. We play, you know, Texas Louisiana music. And we used to back before the pandemic. I don't know if our, we had a regular gig at the Skylark Lounge in East Austin. Well, I want to come see you when everything comes back. Oh, you'll be invited. Yeah. We got it. We're going to be really rusty. We need a lot of rehearsal now. That's to be expected. So you got really fascinated by religions and what made you focus on Scientology? I mean, there's a lot of crazy religions out there. One of the weirdest ones about Scientology is we know who made it, right? It's like him and Joseph Smith. Those are the Mormons and Scientology, the only ones where we know who the creator is. And the Scientology one is particularly weird because it was a science fiction author. It's like that didn't raise any red flags to people. Well, you know, you mentioned Mormons in the same breath and I think that's apt. You know, they were the most stigmatized religion in the 19th century. You know, Mark Twain hated them. Zane Gray wrote a novel about how wicked they were. They were hounded from one state to another. And Scientology is kind of the modern equivalent of that. And one of the reasons I wanted to write about it is you have these famous and sometimes wealthy people, as you point out, affiliating with this organization. There must be a kind of public relations martyrdom for them. I mean, you can admire Tom Cruise or John Travolta for their acting, but you also think, are they a little nuts? You know, is there something going on with them that they need this religion? And so why do they affiliate? Why do they lend their celebrity and their standing to such a stigmatized religion? That was one of the reasons I wanted to write about it. Well, they must get some benefit out of it. That's what I, and they do. I think especially at the lower levels, they offer courses like Jerry Seinfeld was in for a while. I don't think he was ever in. I think he was interested in it and he was studying it. He took some courses. Yeah. But he was never committed as a Scientologist. What is a Scientologist? I mean, once you're going to the Celebrity Center and you're taking courses, I say you're a Scientologist. If you go fishing once, are you a fisherman? Yeah, that can. Aren't you? It's a good question. I'm testing the water. I played basketball a couple of times. I'm hardly a basketball player. It's a little different. Is it? I mean, I guess it is, but I feel like taking courses and things doesn't make you... Well, Leonard Cohen did as well. Sure. Rock Hudson. I mean, there were... A lot of people were drawn to it and I think part of it is Scientology set itself up as a religion for celebrities. It deliberately targeted people like that. And for instance, if you go to Hollywood and you look at prominent actors and so on, they tend not to be Southern Baptists. It's not designed for them. And they may come from a Southern Baptist background, but if they move to Hollywood and they're looking for a group of spiritual seekers like themselves and they want to affiliate with people like them, Scientology says, here we are. And we have the Celebrity Center where people like you can come and you can hang around with other famous people. I think they offer a certain amount of protection. I think there's something there for that. And there's also, I think there's a structure that exists. I think there's a lot of people that especially in such a volatile sort of... It's an uncertain world, the world of acting in particular. It's such a crazy world. I mean, I always said, if you want a formula, like why is LA the way it is? Well, just stop and think about what it is. You have a bunch of people that move there from somewhere else because they want fame. And then you make them audition, which is the weirdest thing. You go into an unnatural environment, usually a conference room, there's a bunch of people sitting around judging you and you want them to like you enough to pick you to do this thing. So you can't in any way buck trends. You have to be like uber polite. You have whatever the ideology is that's accepted, the general vibe of Hollywood, you must confirm to that. You must conform to that rather. They don't even have opinions. They have this conglomeration of opinions they've adopted in order to be let in to this tribe and then you hope that they pick you. And so you have these incredibly insecure people who want acceptance and love and then you make them beg for it. They're essentially like going there and hoping that these people will like them. And that's where you get the abuse like the Harvey Weinstein's of the world and these type of people. They're preying on this need to be accepted and brought into this group in order to be to work, to be able to work. You have to play this fucked up game. And so something comes along like Scientology that gives you structure and gives you family and gives you like we are for you, we're going to help you become clear. We're going to bring you to the next level. You know, you're a success. Gives you something where you feel like, like have you ever done martial arts? I did judo when I was in high school. One of the beautiful things about martial arts is the belt system. Because like when you're a white belt and all of a sudden they tie that blue belt on your waist, you're like, wow, I am making progress. This is really happening. And you feel fantastic. Whereas if you went to a martial art, like I did kickboxing for a while, there's no belts. And it just feels weird. Like you don't know where you are. Like where am I? Like it's not the most success. And because of that, some kickboxing systems, even Muay Thai, some weird systems have developed their own belt structure, which is weird. The system they've just sort of added to the existing martial art that didn't have a belt structure. But it's to give people this sense of progress. Give people a scaffolding. Give people structure. Give people this thing where you feel like something is happening for me. And I think that's one of the things that Scientology does really well for these fucked up people. Absolutely. Catch new episodes of the Joe Rogan Experience for free only on Spotify. Watch back catalog JRE videos on Spotify, including clips. Easily, seamlessly switch between video and audio experience. On Spotify, you can listen to the JRE in the background while using other apps and can download episodes to save on data costs all for free. Spotify is absolutely free. You don't have to have a premium account to watch new JRE episodes. You just need to search for the JRE on your Spotify app. Go to Spotify now to get this full episode of the Joe Rogan Experience.