Algorithms, Privacy, and Outrage

Do you think that the algorithms are designed to do this? Or do you think that it's just a function of human nature that we tend to gravitate towards things that outrage us and then huddle up together in echo chambers? That this is just a natural tribal behavior? And that what the algorithms do is essentially just highlight what we're really interested in. They magnify it in a feedback loop. So you're right to say that humans do have these traits. I haven't designed the algorithms, but I've also talked to people who have. They don't even understand how they work at a certain point. They're off to the races. Have you seen the social dilemma? Yeah. What'd you think about that? It's great. It's great. Scary too. What conclusions did they draw? Oh, certainly. I made a film about eight years ago called Terms and Conditions May Apply. That came out right before the Edward Snowden revelations. When it came out, the initial response was like, oh, this is maybe conspiratorial. Surely the government doesn't have this much insight into our behavior and access to our devices and our personal information. And then the Snowden revelations came out and then it was like, oh, well, maybe the series didn't go far enough. And back then we had talked about the idea of how is technology influencing us? How is it changing us, manipulating us? And it didn't feel like that was the biggest story at the time. And this question of privacy and how our rights are being eroded through these agreements that nobody ever really reads. And you could find all kinds of juicy tidbits hidden in there in terms of what the companies were actually doing and revealing this unholy collusion between the government and big tech. But at the time, people would often say, well, what's the cost? What's the big deal if they're mining my personal data to serve me with ads? And I'd say that the environment we find ourselves in now is the cost. Do you do anything to personally protect your data? Do you use DuckDuckGo for searches and things on those lines? You've Brave as a browser. Do you do that stuff? All that, yeah. Yeah. You signal. VPNs. VPNs. I do my best. If a government actor really wants to get at you, they're going to be able to. I mean, you saw the NSO click list spyware story, right? Yes. If there's a zero day that allows you to get access to a microphone and everything that someone's doing on their phone without them even having to click on a link, it's game over. Of course, governments will abuse that. Yeah. And probably are right now. Probably are right now, yeah. Where are phones at? Right there. Yeah. It's interesting because you would think that there would be a market for a platform that becomes bulletproof. And there have been some Linux based cell phone operating system phones that they sell like they buy a phone. You get a Google phone, they de-Google it and put different software on it and stuff. But I'm not sure if that's like, if you're deluding yourself into believing that you're actually protected with that stuff or you're actually are protected. I would think they could work around all those things, especially something that's, I mean, it's essentially like open source, right? Like if it's a Linux based operating system, there's some super geniuses out there. I'm sure they're going to be able to hack into that. Yeah. I mean, I think with stuff like Signal, you're just protecting yourself as best you can. Use something that's end-end encrypted. You're doing better than 99% of people who are out there. You're making somebody really have to work to get access to your stuff. And if you're using a VPN and you're using Duck Duck Go, then you're minimizing your digital footprint and you're not worth as much of these companies and they're not able to manipulate you, I guess, in the same way through these algos. But let me ask you this. I mean, what would you do about the algorithm problem? Because on the one hand, algorithms are necessary for something like a search engine. On the other hand, they drive the most sensational content, things like QAnon, and I think have largely facilitated the situation we find ourselves in now. Watch the entire episode for free only on Spotify.