Joe Rogan and Thaddeus Russell Debate Gender Being a Social Construct

Hello, freak bitches. So and this is the second, my second disagreement with Jordan Peterson. He thinks that all this stuff in college campuses that's crazy is because of postmodernism. And he doesn't understand postmodernism. What's going on in college campuses is people making all sorts of truth claims about things like race and gender, right? I'm black, therefore I will always be this, that and the other thing. You're white, therefore you are this, that and the other thing. No matter what, right? That is actually old modernist, scientific racist thinking. That's what these old racist, geneticist, eugenicist thought back in the day. It's amazing. Again, SJWs are actually really, really conservative and ultimately racist. The social justice warriors folks. Sorry, I thought your listeners must know that. Something we don't know the appreciation. I just assumed that was a shorthand to use. So postmodernism, this is where Jordan Peterson makes me want to throw chairs when he talks about this, comes out of French philosophy in the 1960s and 70s and 80s. Michel Foucault is the most famous example of a French postmodernist and they get dumped on all the time. But the central argument that was made by Foucault and postmodernists was that none of these things are biologically determined. That there is no natural essence to anything. That everything is a social construct. Which means that we now are free to choose our own destiny as individuals, right? Prior to that, prior to the 1960s and 70s, it was the dominant belief that if you were born a woman, you were going to be a wife and a mother. And if you weren't, you were doing something unnatural, right? That if you were black, you could never be the head of a business or the president, right? You could never do math, whatever. If you were white, you should do all those things, right? Everybody's destiny was determined at birth and everyone believed that. Most people believe that. Postmodernists came along and said, guess what? You know what we found looking at history? We found just what I said. I just gave you the whole postmodern argument right there. We looked at history and we saw first of all that all these categories have changed over time which tells us that they're just inventions. They're just inventions that get reinvented all the time, okay? And second of all, they have served the purposes of ruling elites because they get to put people in their boxes and control them more easily, right? Oh, those people over there, those are black, therefore they should be our slaves. So it's okay for us to have them as slaves. Those women over there, we don't want them, you know, working for NASA. So we will have a rule against women working for NASA, whatever it is, right? So postmodernists said, none of this is biological, none of this is inevitable. You are now free to do what you want as an individual. It was a liberating moment. It has become the dominant way of thinking in academia and I have to say in my view, it is the supreme achievement of academics ever. That's it? That's it. But it's huge, huge. So if you think about it, look how the world has changed in particularly in the United States since then, right? We no longer generally have those ideas, at least we don't operate as such. So black people are allowed mostly into places they weren't before. Women are allowed very much so into places they weren't allowed before. The whole world has changed and I think principally from that idea. So that doesn't mean, now the problem is that these social justice warriors so-called on campuses have used some of that language and taken a shit on it. So the trans movement, for instance, that started from postmodernism. That whole idea is that if you were born with a penis, you're a man and you should do X, Y and Z with your life. The trans movement needed that, needed postmodernism to make that intervention and say, no, that's not true. You can actually be a woman because woman is an invention, it's a social construct. What much of the trans movement now is doing, which makes me so sad, is that they're saying that I am biologically, essentially, naturally, in my core, a woman. No, no one is. No one is. You can't, the whole point of this movement used to be that you get to choose your gender or choose not to be a gender. You get to move around. Your destiny is not determined for you. A lot of the trans movement now is doing, is a good word, reifying. They're making these ideas, these abstractions real again. They're making these claims that are similar to Sam Harris' claims and to old racist claims and to old sexist claims that if you're born a particular way biologically, this is who you are. Because you've heard a lot of trans people say this, right? I was born a woman. That's what they often say. What I'm saying is no one was born anything. You are losing to me in a huge way. Why? You don't think that some women are born women? You don't think you're born a man? No. What are you born? Why are you a man? For all sorts of reasons. For all sorts of reasons. None of them being biological. We just decided. None of them being the XY chromosome. None of them being you have testicles. None of them being you have a penis. None of them being the fact that you generally gravitate towards male activities like boxing, kickboxing, aggressive things. We just went through this whole thing. No, you didn't. You all Romero and Andy Dick. Yeah, but you. Why are they both men? But you, you, you're a man. Yeah. Right? We're not talking about the broad spectrum of masculine behavior. We're talking about no one is born a man. You're not born a man. I'm not born a man. I'm saying that, no, I think. I think we're getting silly. Hold on here. I think it's the category of man becomes meaningless. Does it? Yeah, we just did this, man. No, we didn't. Why? You all Romero and Andy Dick are both. It's a broad category. The lines get blurred. So broad. The ends of the spectrum and I think they cross over. The male female lines do cross over when you get to that Kenyan runner and Andy Dick. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. It's so broad that it becomes to me pretty damn meaningless. Well, the numbers are incredibly small at those crossover marks. You're talking about a very, very small percentage of the population. Neither Andy Dick nor Yoel Romero are trans people, right? Andy might be. They are so different though, physically and every way. But we both put them in this silly category called man. What the hell does that mean anymore? Andy has children. He mazes them and he impregnated different women and got babies from a lot of people called men who don't and can't. Can't. Okay. Yeah, but that's rare. They were born that way by the way. But that's pretty rare. Not that rare. Oh, it's very rare. Most men, when they have sex with a woman and they put sperm in their body, they can make a baby. So that's one characteristic. But hold on a second. You're making it as if it's a really common thing. When you're talking about a small fraction of the men can't make babies. An incredibly small fraction. The vast majority of males with the XY chromosome who have penises are capable of impregnating a female with an XX chromosome. I mean, the male was born a male. The female was born a female. Right. So what do you mean that you aren't born a man or you aren't born a female? Right. So there are many, many characteristics that we assign to the category of man. Many of them. Okay. That's one characteristic. So why is that characteristic in the man category? If in particular that there are some men who don't share that characteristic. But which ones don't? That's the aberration. The aberration is the one that don't. Why is it an aberration? See, these are all in these. Because they can't get a woman pregnant. They don't produce sperm. You're talking about very, very rare cases. Yeah. For race, same thing happens with sickle cell anemia. This is what everybody invokes when they want to claim that race is real. Only black people get sickle cell anemia. Well, guess what? The numbers there are about the same as the number of men who are infertile. Why then are people with sickle cell anemia definitely black? Why is that definitely a black thing? Same thing. It's, again, why are we ... There's all these characteristics. Why do we draw this line called man around all those different people? Well, why do we do it with animals? When you have a male dog and a female dog, isn't there a male dog and a female dog? Inventions. You don't believe there's a male dog and a female dog? I'm just saying it's inventions. Now, hold on. So before you get ... But it's not an invention. Yeah, yeah, no, it is, of course. But it's not an invention. One of them has a penis and testicles. It's a male. The thing we see, we call it a penis. Sure, I get it. No, I get it. And that's the world I live in, absolutely. So I operate in this way, by the way. A dog penis world? You and I would agree on all the things in the world that are dogs. Right. Okay. And then we'd walk around and be like, oh no, that's not a dog. So with humans, you're making a distinction that there are certain feelings and the way you interface with the world that may be more or less masculine or feminine. No, but it does apply to dogs, my point here, which is that we did draw a line, right? Do all dogs look alike? My God, there's a huge variation there, too. We're not talking about race, though. We're talking about gender, right? Either way, it doesn't matter. It's the same principle. Okay, let's just say dobermans. Male dobermans and female dobermans, right? Sure. You can't ... You go to buy a male doberman. And the guy gives you a female doberman. He goes, oh, but she identifies as being a male. It's just an invention, man. This is a male. She's a male. You can't disrespect her by saying she's not a male. You would say that guy's crazy and you want your money back. Are there any two females who are identical? Two female what? Anything. I mean, if you have a really good breeder, you can get pretty goddamn close if you're talking about dogs. No. No. There are no two organisms that are identical, certainly not. I'd say down to the hair. You've got no technicality, but you can still categorize them as XY or XX chromosomes now. Sure. And I'm not saying we shouldn't categorize anything ever because we must do that to live in this world. What are you saying? What I am saying is we should probably stop applying certain categories to human beings in the ways we have done. Like how so? How so with male and female? Because there are certain inventions, certain social constructs that do nothing but bad things, that do no good and they're only social constructs like race and gender. Well, tell me how race and gender definition... I'm not worried about doberman's too much. Especially gender definition. Let's look at gender definition and tell me how it's only bad. Why is it only bad to define men as men and women as women? Because if you say it's about making the biological claim, the biological connection there. Well, making a definition, like saying a guy who is born a guy who gravitates towards male activities, likes females, all those things by saying that that's a man, that this is a born man. And you're saying no, no one is. So if you're saying if those characteristics are naturally determined, then all of us guys who don't do those things are unnatural. Which things are those? All the things that... Being attracted to women. Whatever it is that you characterize as being male. But that's so common with males. What is? Being attracted to women, engaging in sex with women. Oh really? Oh really? Is it gay people? Yes, it's a small percentage of the population of men. Is it one percent? Is it ten percent? One out of ten? Yes, I mean it's certainly a lot of people, isn't it? It's a lot of people when you think about the 350 million people we have living in America. Sure. Take all the men, let's do this, take all the men who are straight up homosexual, always have been. But you can classify them as gay men. I know, hold on. So just take that, whatever that is. If it's one or two or five or ten percent, whatever it is. Only been homosexual, 100 percent. Never been attracted to a woman. Period, okay? Okay, fine. That's still a really significant number. I'm not done, hang on. Then take the men who don't identify as homosexual, have had sex with women, have been attracted to women, but have fucked men. Hmm. Prisoners. Pretty damn big number there. Pretty damn... Wait a minute. How many guys do you think are attracted to women but still fuck men? So Kinsey, the Kinsey study in the 1940s and 50s, found that it was I think 30 percent. What? Yes. 30 percent of men fuck men? Reached orgasm in a sexual experience with another man, yes. 30 percent? Yes. Yes. It was a very large number. Kinsey was hanging out with freaks. Yep. That's what I think. There were different numbers for women and men, but they were both very significant percentages. Not majorities, but very significant percentages. Well, I don't know if you say that. I have personally known many men who you would consider straight, who identify as straight, who have done something with men. Either given them a blowjob, gotten a blowjob, had full-on sex. Hollow. Jerked each other off. Jesus. You're hanging out with weird crowds. I'm surprised this is news to you. Well, it's news in that even if they did do that, you're talking about individual sexual acts between people who are male or female, right? You're still talking about a man. Still talking about a man that's having sex with other men. You're defining it such in that way. You're literally saying... No. A guy. You are. You know guys who've sucked other guys' dicks. A guy who's done it to a guy. You're saying a man do it to a man. Gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. No, I'm saying that people who are identified as men by society... He didn't say that, though, did you? That's what I meant. People who are identified as men by society have done these things that society considers to be unnatural for men. But when they were doing that, weren't they a man doing it to a man? And look what happened to those guys historically. Not so much recently, but still today, but certainly historically. Listen, we can't keep going back to 100 plus years. I'm talking about... Let's talk about right now. I am. You're still talking about a man who's having a sexual exchange with another man. You can be sexually attracted to another man. It doesn't mean that you're both not men. So do you think homosexual men are men? Sure. Why? Because they're male. They have a penis. They have XY chromosomes. They can get a woman pregnant if they wanted to. They can donate their sperm to their lesbian pals and they can all have babies together. So then you just eliminated one of the characteristics that you previously said was male. No. No, no. Most men, most are attracted to women, but a good percentage of them are gay. This is not complicated stuff. They're still men. Yeah. I mean, I don't know where to go from here. I mean, I think I've made the argument. It's funny because I thought you were totally with me for like an hour and a half and now it's like, I feel like you're not there. I don't know what to say. I think there's a giant spectrum of people, but to say that a guy isn't born a man or a woman isn't born a woman, I think is disingenuous. Yeah. So it's where the ... So, okay. Thailand. Thailand, I think in India, and I think there's several Polynesian countries. There's several countries where there is a legal and cultural and social category that is neither man nor woman, nor male, nor female, like in Thailand, the lady boys. And there's other countries who have this. You can look it up. Sure. Okay. You know about this maybe. Sure. Okay. What about that? What about those people? There's that too. Oh, wait. I think there's that too. Oh. Okay. I'm saying people can be born a man, people can be born a woman, or you can get these Andy Dick, Yoo-Oh, Romero weird variations. But Joe, take the lady boys from Thailand and move them here to this country now. How will they be considered? What do you mean, how will they be considered? Americans don't have those categories. We have only two. Don't you think there's a lot of variables in Thailand also that you're dealing with like really young sex workers? There's a lot of weird shit that goes on in Thailand, a lot of abuse. So is the lady boy category real or not? It's certainly real. Because the trans category is real. There they consider that real and here we do not. But if a trans category is real, and I think you agree it's real, and I agree it's real, trans people, there's absolutely people that feel like they're born on the wrong gender. Sure. Okay. So why isn't a man real? Why isn't a woman real? They're real too. If you want to say they're all equally real, I'm down. I'm there, we're good. That's what I'm saying. Right. It's just that those categories have no absolute biological meaning. Meaning that they're fluid, they're basically arbitrary. Sorry. That we invent them. I'm not saying it's useless. I'm not saying we should never have any categories. I'm just saying that those categories have changed and they change. But you kind of didn't say that though. Depending on where you are in the world. That's why I'm disagreeing with you. You kind of did say that a man isn't born a man and that a woman isn't born a woman. And for sure a lot of them are. For sure a lot of people that have your stereotypical classic female characteristics were born female. For sure there's a lot of men who have classic stereotypical male behavior and patterns and desires. They're born men. And then there's trans people. And then there's asexual people that also needs to be considered. There's people that just don't have any desire to fuck anybody. They don't want to. They don't want to be a man or a woman. They can call themselves queer. They can call themselves whatever they want. They don't want to be a female. They don't want to be a male. They just want to be human. Here's the deal. Let's make a deal. If that's what you have to say about it and you want to not get in the way of people doing those things and making those decisions for themselves and let them do what they want to do, I am totally with you. And that's true. For sure I don't want to get in the way of anybody making. I don't want to get in the way of furries. That's awesome. If you really identify with being a giant squirrel. That's awesome. That's great. And that's really what matters. I'm just saying that claims, and I want to end it here, claims about these essential characteristics that it's biologically determined, right? Are the things that reinforce getting in the way, laws, policies, cultures, ideas, norms that get in the way of people doing what they want to do with their own lives? Right? Do you see what I mean? For sure with some people. The variables are so extreme and the spectrum is so broad. So after I was on your show the first time, I got a whole bunch of comments from people calling me a fag and a pussy and a sissy and a this and that. You can't read those. Why are you reading those? Feminizing me and it's not your fault for calling me a girl. But you can't read those. Oh no, I know. It's whatever. No, I mean people like came to Twitter and whatever. Yeah, you don't read those. Oh no, I stopped. I learned. Oh yeah, I stopped. I don't do any more. I didn't matter. I didn't care. This didn't bother me at all. I just thought it was interesting actually. Okay. So in other words, and a lot of what they were really saying, and some of them elaborated on this, was that I was not really man enough. I was less of a man for whatever reason. I don't care. It's fine. I liked it. It's funny. But it really proves my point is that these things are very fluid. So they kind of were kicking me out of the category of man. And I was like, cool. Please. I think they were just insulting me to try to get a rise from them. I don't think you could make a rational argument dealing with internet trolls. No, of course not. I'm saying it's just one example of what goes on generally, which is that we do this all the time, right? Yeah, but they're not even human. Like when someone's interacting with you like that, it's lacking all of the characteristics of human interaction. You're not there with a person. You're not looking at them. If someone was in front of you like that, oh, you're a fag. You look, you'd be like, oh my God, I'm in danger. This is a crazy person. I might have to defend myself against this person because if someone is treating me that way, insulting me, looking me in the eye, we are so close to violence. Like anything can happen here. This is a person that's not rational. It is amazing, isn't it? It's crazy. I was just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just.