Joe Rogan - Thaddeus Russell on Why He Disagrees with Jordan Peterson

Hello freak bitches. People like Jordan Peterson and I have major differences with him on sort of the content of his ideas, not about academia, but on academia he's right completely and I'm totally in solidarity with him, what they did to him and what they're doing to him. We need more people like him standing up and saying, no, I'm going to say what I want in my classrooms and on Twitter and because that's people have been punished for that too. Well, they're trying to get him to stop doing his YouTube lectures. I know. Which is fascinating because they're very measured, they're long form, he gets to expand on his thoughts as much as he likes, he's very, very informed. Sure. Yeah. I mean, he's just, I, again, I have major disagree... What is the disagreement? Disagreements with him on gender and postmodernism. I think he's completely off, but you know. How so on gender? So he, and I know you agree with him on this, I think. Well, maybe, I don't know, I'm not sure, but it's this idea that there just are two genders, that's it, and they're attached to biology. No, I don't think that. Good. No. He seems to think that. I think there's a spectrum of humans in every single aspect of being a person. Yeah. I should say I heard your conversation with him and I could see, and this was interesting and it was exciting, because I could actually see you moving in a direction that I found to be much more interesting than his, which is closer to mine, which is, yeah, that this, it's fluid. Well, there's feminine men, there's masculine women. Go to Thailand. Yeah, for sure. Go to Thailand. Right. In fact, here we go, merging all these topics together. One of the top Muay Thai fighters recently, I don't know if she's still fighting, is a lady boy in Thailand. Yeah. Well, once she became, once you got the operation, her performance dropped off pretty rapidly. Yeah, sure. But that's just lack of testosterone. And I know your thing about Fallon Fox. Yes. So I agree with you there. It's a different thing. It's a different story. I totally agree with you on that particular thing, right? Whether she should have been allowed to fight. Well, it's not that she should have been allowed to fight. I think she should be allowed to fight. Women? As long as the women know that she used to be a man. That's fine, too. The problem was, for the first two fights, she didn't disclose it, because she said it was a medical procedure and she didn't have to give up the personal details of her medical procedure. I say that's bullshit. I say, well, you're dealing with a chromosomal issue. You're dealing with the fact that you have a different bone structure, different mechanical advantages, and 30 years of testosterone in your body. It's just not the same. Exactly. But as long as someone knows, like I'm fine with Jermaine Durandamy. She knocked down a man. I don't know if you ever saw that fight. I did. Do you think she's juiced? She's not juiced. No. Oh, yeah. Right. She's just fucking badass. She's just awesome. I know. I mean, I don't know if she's taken anything into her entire career. It would just be pure speculation. She doesn't look like she has. No. That doesn't mean anything either. Right. Right. But she's so fucking badass and so technical and so tough. I know. She's fought men, but she knew there were a man going in. She made a decision, just like I think you should be allowed to skydive, just like I think you should be allowed to ride bulls. I don't think it's smart. Right. You should be able to do whatever the fuck you want to do. I'm all for freedom of expression, of participation, and any sort of dangerous activity. My issue, 100%, was that people are trying to pretend that there's no advantage whatsoever. Yeah. And that's crazy. That's silly. So the thing is, within that framework, within the rules we are operating in, right? Whether it's in fighting or whether it's in this particular society. Or the wrestling girl in Texas. Yeah, I read all about that too. Exactly. So that's a particular rule. You are agreeing to play a particular game. Right. And you're just breaking the rules. That's all. I mean, you have a body. Sort of. Well, right. They're letting them break the rules. The rules are not ... And I think a lot of it is people worried about being called transphobic or homophobic or in any way prejudiced where they're allowing certain people to compete in these ... Like this woman in Australia, the trans woman in Australia that just broke all these world records in weightlifting because she was a fucking man her whole life. And all of a sudden became a woman. It's just killing everybody in weightlifting. The runners in ... I think they're from Kenya. Yeah. Or South Africa. No, the one from South Africa in particular. I forgot her name. What do you mean the one that's like a hermaphrodite? Well, I don't know what she is, but she's broken every record by huge ... insane amounts. And I think she's just a woman with a normally large amount of testosterone. I think they've actually done chromosomal testing. I don't know. When I saw her in the Olympics, it just jumped out at me. Well, pull that up because I'm pretty sure that that woman actually has been tested and then there was a real issue behind it and she felt terrible about it because it was just the way she was born. Really? Yeah. Well, again, the spectrum. Yeah, I could ... Look, there's men that have tremendous amounts of testosterone and there's men that have like almost none. That's actually the major point we need to talk about. You're totally on the right track there. I totally agree with that. That's the most important thing, which is that there's a spectrum. Right? And so to say that there are ... that 50% of the world is male and 50% is female. Nonsense. Or man and ... Right. Thank you. That's black and white nonsense. I say to my students, I say, okay, there's seven billion people in the world. Okay. Imagine in your mind lining all of them up naked in front of you. How many sexes do you see? This is what I want you to do. Get a picture of Yoel Romero and put it next to a picture of Andy Dick. Tell me they're the same thing. Tell me this is even. They're both men. Tell me it's even. It's nonsense. I mean ... Right. It's chaos. Yeah. It's like, have you ever heard a guy on the street say, man, that's a lot of women? Yes. Well, that suggests there are women who are less women to them. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. There's a spectrum and there's also a spectrum in sizes. I mean, that's why there's white classics. So let me ask you this. Okay, so let's push it a little further. So so far, you're doing very well. In your eyes. Some people are screaming at their fucking computer right now. Oh, believe me. I know. Fucking commies. Believe me, I know. Robin's going homo. So that's ... Well, no, I think you already went all the way, actually. So there's two things. There's the Jordan Peterson view. I don't think he has that view. Hang on. Let me put it out there. Okay. That's what he's saying, which is that gender is fixed and biologically determined. I'm pretty sure he does believe that. Okay. That's what I would call sort of the traditional conservative convention view. Those are both men. Yeah, exactly. Jesus Christ. Or not. Or you know what? Or like there's more than two categories in the world, right? And so Andy Dick would be one and Yolomero would be another. And I ... Where would you put me there? I mean, I'm neither one of those guys. You're in the middle there. I'm neither one of them. Well, see, the deal is both of them can procreate with women. Okay. So technically they're both men. But a whole lot of people who are called men cannot procreate with women. A whole lot. What do you mean? They're trans women? No, no, no. Trans men? They can't ... It doesn't work. Oh. So they don't develop sperm? Yeah. Really? Of course. Is that really common? Yeah. Weren't you tested when you were trying to get pregnant? No, I just knocked her up, dude. Come on. Well, maybe I wasn't. I never tested my loads. It certainly was the same. Just shot them in there and watched the fireworks. Yeah. See? There you go. So you're more of a man. You've just proven yet again that you're more of a woman. Yeah, there's the woman. Yeah, Jesus Christ. Well, when you ... Yeah, that's not a great picture. It doesn't give you a sense of how different ... It does though. Look at the thighs and the bulge. Look at the bulge. Well ... Three times as high as most women. Whoa. Okay, so ... Reports leaked out. That doesn't really mean anything. I don't think she's ever really been tested. I believe she has. See if she's been tested. What does the test say? What does the test say? But it leaked. She was subjected to sex verification test after she won the World Championships in Germany. And what does it say? Yeah, leaked. Okay, leaked. The results were supposed to be confidential, but reports leaked out that she had testosterone levels three times as high as most women. Other intimate details about her anatomy were also reported. Yeah. That became targeted ... Samania? Samania? Yeah. How brutal. Your first name is ... The first part of your name is Seaman. Seaman became targeted with abuse on social media. But what does it say? So is it saying that she's a hermaphrodite? Because we're talking about her ... You know what this is? Declitoral size maybe? It's the equivalent of pretty much every article written about Trump by the New York Times. What? What do you mean? A report was leaked by ... Right. The former officials said, where's the actual evidence of any of this stuff? I don't see it. Yeah, it doesn't say anything. Doesn't matter. So she passed the test. Doesn't matter. She must have passed the test. Doesn't matter. Here's the thing. I think ... I mean, Seaman, that's brutal. If I were a woman athlete, right? Yeah. I would want rules established. It's like I would want rules established defining the physical characteristics of any of my potential opponents. So it could be whatever, bone density, muscle mass, testosterone levels, you name it. You could probably speak to this better than I could, but I'm sure there's all sorts of ways you could actually define that pretty precisely. And you can test those things and you can say, okay, you get to be in this ... It's like weight classes and fighting. It's no different really. You're not allowed to fight someone who's 30 pounds lighter than you are. And so you could do that in any sport. You could say, right, if you're above a certain height or above a certain weight or have this much muscle or that much testosterone, you're not allowed in this category. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing sexist about that. There's nothing anti-trans about that. It's just a different category. But that's all that matters, right? The problem was that Fallon Fox had, as you said, more muscle, more testosterone, all these physical characteristics that were fundamentally different than all of the other women fighting in that category in that particular game. That's all you got to do. Well, the problem is that you can do damage to the person. I know. It's not as simple as playing basketball against someone who had more testosterone. It's terrible to do that. But there's also like ... There's a type of thinking that's involved in discussing this where you have to follow a line of thinking. And if you don't follow a line of thinking, you're transphobic, you're a hateful person, you're a bigot, and that line of thinking is not science-based. It's just not. When you talk to board-certified endocrinologists, when they talk about trans people, one of the things that they talk about is the fact that when you take estrogen, it actually maintains bone density. It's the reason why they give estrogen to women who have osteoporosis. So this idea that your bone density decreases when you go from being a man to a woman. It's bullshit. You're taking testosterone. Your bone density is going to stay the same or get thicker. But if you're taking estrogen, your bone density is also going to maintain. It's going to help you maintain. So when you remove the body's ability to produce testosterone on its own, there was a whole article in Bloody Elbow of an MMA by this board-certified endocrinologist, Dr. Ramona Krutsik. And what she did different than everything else, all these other articles, is she's not a gender reassignment surgeon. All these other people that are commenting on this have a vested interest in it being completely neutral. There's all these people that are trans people that are commenting on it, and they're doing it from a very biased perspective. Because we're not talking about mountain biking, which there was a woman who used to be a man who dominated mountain biking, and it became a giant issue with people. They first supported her, and then she was winning by such enormous margins. They were like, well, what the fuck? Same as the woman in Australia that's the weightlifter. This is different. This is fighting. And I think fighting uniquely- Fella Fox almost killed that woman. She beat the shit out of a few girls, but then she lost Ashley Evan Smith, who is a biological female. You can beat someone like that, but again, Ronda Rousey probably beat the fuck out of most 135-pound men in the world that she meets. Of course. It's just a matter of skill level. It's no different than PED, like banning PEDs. We want to do that, don't we? Right. Same thing. It's altering the body's chemistry, its abilities. And so you don't want to compete against someone who has that difference. Unless you know, right? Unless you're saying, or unless you're allowed to do the same thing, then it's all fair. But you couldn't. The woman would have to take testosterone and balance it out, and then you'd have to find out how would you balance out 30 years of your body naturally producing testosterone, increasing your ligament strength, increasing your tendon strength. The mechanical advantages of male hips are very different when it comes to kicking, when it comes to certain types of movement. Women's hips go out and then their legs kind of come in at an angle, and it's not the best for kicking. It's not the best for a lot of different activities. It's different. So I would just say that a trans woman is absolutely, in my view, a woman. Fine. That's their identity, and I respect that, however they want to identify. Because the category of woman, as you said, is so fluid, I'm not going to say there's any absolute about that either, that it can change, and it comes from her ideas, but it's still, I respect that, and I'll call you a woman, I'll treat you like a woman. But that means we have to change the sports, and we have to have just different categories. Instead of woman sports and man sports, and woman and man categories in those sports, we need to have different categories that are about people's physical composition, what you're made up of. So just like weight classes and PEDs, there's no difference to me. Well, or there could be the argument that a person, a trans woman, is a woman, but when you're talking about athletic competition, you're talking about a very biological thing. I'm saying if you take the ... And that you might have to say that someone has to be a biological female to compete against females. But I'm saying if you take the gender out of the sport, right? If you stop calling these gendered names, then it's definitely not a trans issue. It's just about what your body's made up of. So for instance ... So instead of just weight classes ... Like Jermaine Durandamy is probably, I don't know ... Well, Ronda Rousey, more likely, is probably made up just physically more like closer to a man, closer to Yael Romero than Andy Digg. How dare you? She's going to find this and she's going to find you. Gosh, I hope so. Someone likes to be hit. It really choked out real fast. Yeah, so that means I would just say there should be a category in the sport for people who are made up of that composition. That could be people that the society identifies as men or who identify as women or whatever. Oh man, that's a slippery slope. Why? There's a lot of work there. Yeah. Because how would you define it? What parameters would you use? Bone density? Well, you know, a lot of African American women have similar bone density to white males. So does that mean you should be able to fight black checks? Maybe. Yeah, it depends, right? Well, no, actually, they kind of are doing it. And wolf might fuck you up. This thing, oh man. I'm not messing with Ann Wolf. Even though she's like, what, 60 years old, she could still crush me. She's probably 50. She could crush me. No, but I mean, they are doing it. In fact, we just saw this with, what's her name? Kaster Samania. What are they doing with her? Well, it's the thing about testosterone levels. But what are they doing? Are they threatening her? No, there's a number for testosterone that you have to be below, right, to compete in that sport as a woman. So that's what I'm talking about. Just add more categories, not just testosterone. You have to have, that's what this says. Okay, it says right here. If your testosterone goes above a certain level, you're not allowed to compete as a woman. So I'm saying, have that category and add more categories like that. And don't call it woman and men. Just say it's category X. You get to compete in this category. If you're testosterone, androgen, whatever. Yeah, but you see what they're saying levels. But it's so ridiculously loose. It's saying a female with hypo androgenism who is recognized as a female in law shall be eligible to compete in women's competition athletics provided that she has androgen levels below the male range. All you have to do is just be a couple notches below the male range, which is way above. But I'm saying, that's all objectively determined. You can do that. They're trying to get her to take suppression medication or ... That's what I'm saying. Okay. See what I'm saying? This is all proving my point. These are objectively determined. So they're making her tone it down. We have numbers. We say, if you hit this number for this category, you don't get to compete here. But this is so rare. She has a disease, essentially, where she produces too much testosterone. But it would apply to trans people, is what I'm saying. So if you ... But would it? Because even so, you're still dealing with the mechanical advantages of the male frame. The wider shoulder, especially when it comes to hitting. We could do that too. We do it with weight. We do it with weight already. Why not? Sure. Boy. In fact, I've thought about that. Have you? Well, look, I'm sure you're up too. In weight classes, right? I have a huge advantage. I always use it. I'm 6'1", 165, and I have really long arms. So most of the time, people can't get inside my job. I just put it out there. They can't ... And it's just a thing. But I often feel like this isn't really fair in a way. I don't have to be as good as they are. I can be looser. And it's true for a lot of fighters. But once they get inside on you, they have an advantage. Mike Tyson used that advantage of being 5'10 on a lot of fighters. I don't have an advantage. He just was really good at overcoming it. I think there's an advantage in fighting and having shorter arms and being lower. He did the peek-a-boo past the jab. He maximized his style. Really, really well. Really, really well. He did that thing. As did Rocky Marciano. And then he had a really good way of slipping the jab and moving constantly until he was inside on you. And then he would crush you with his huge left hook. But once he's there, he doesn't have an advantage on you. He's just there, and he's Mike Tyson. But you don't think it's harder for a guy with long ass spider arms to punch a guy who is in tight on you with short arms and is throwing shots to the body like Tyson would do? I don't think so. I think there's advantages as long as you're physically competent. There's advantages in particular movements and positions to all sorts of different body styles. It's very true in jiu-jitsu. Guys with long arms and long legs in jiu-jitsu have massive advantages with chokes. You guys can get darces and guillotines and triangles easier. But you can also get armbarred easier. There's mechanical advantages in armbarring you. There's some weird advantages to being like a Husammar Paul Horace stocky short guy. Here's basketball. How about basketball? There you go. Oh, it's all advantages. And in fact, there are leagues, actually there might be professional leagues, which are six feet and under leagues. Really? Yeah. Many leagues. Oh, many people. This is very common because most people are under six feet tall, right? Who could never play in the NBA, even though they're amazing basketball players, but they just don't have the arm length and they don't have the height and all that. That's interesting. So we just need more divisions. The UFC should have like, you know, welter weight should be, there should be heights within it too. Isaiah Thomas was only 5'9". Isaiah Thomas is a current Isaiah Thomas. He's a good player for the number one. He's fantastic. A lot of guys that are under six foot though. He's a great, great player. Around six foot. They get listed higher too. Like the cheat set. Interesting. So he's sort of the exception that proves the rule. He's 5'9", but he's really successful. Well, you remember Muggy Bopes? Yeah, he's 5'3". Wasn't he like 5'6' or something? 5'3". 5'3". Muggy was 5'3", and dunked. Did he say? No, I didn't dunk. Spud Web. Yes, he did. 5'7". No, I'm pretty sure. Pull it up, Jamie. Jamie's going to jack you on this. Yeah, it's my wheelhouse. You're in Jamie's wheelhouse in a big way right now. I'm pretty sure Muggy Bopes. I'm pretty sure he dunked. Okay, Muggy Bopes. He may not have been a super clean dunk, but it was a dunk. Let's see. On a 10 foot up. Let's see if he dunked. We'll go with a video. That's my life goal was to say, pull it up, Jamie. Okay, this is about web. Does it have a video of him dunking? I don't think so. I've never seen it in my entire life. You're going to want to Google Muggy Bopes. Yeah, I would have seen it in my life. Google Muggy Bopes dunk. He did Google that. Boom, right there. Go with video. Crazy Muggy Bopes dunk, Jamie. Number two on Google. Let's see. I've got to watch this. I've never ever seen this in my entire life. Dude, he just flew through. That's not real. That's not real. That's in a video game. That's probably not real. That's in a video game. I promise you. That's NBA life. My memory is that it wasn't a clean, super clean dunk, but he did get the ball above the rim with his hand on it. We're going to get to the bottom of this, ladies and gentlemen. Jamie will get to the bottom of it. It's really, this is pretty essential. We don't solve this. This is a failure of a podcast. There's a big difference, I think, between team sports where you could have an advantage of having a Spud Web or a Muggy Bopes, a very mobile, agile kind of guy who can set plays up versus a guy like Shaq. Every giant guy who can get in the way of things. I think there's all sorts of advantages and disadvantages at size. When you're talking about individuals against individuals, that's where things get weird. Then when you're talking about combat sports, that's where people have just... There's some people that just have these tremendous advantages. You know what Paul Daley is? Ridiculous power. Almost unfair. He hits guys and just obliterates them. Yeah, but you know that's not just strength. It's technique. It's also body geometry. A lot of skinny dudes like me have power. A lot. A lot. A lot. And a lot of big... Tommy Hearns is the best example. There's a bunch of them. But he's also this wide and then his waist is like this and this angle just... I've actually thought it's shoulder width. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, you get that. This wide and the waist like this. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So the shoulders, the torque. Yep, exactly. I mean, it's crazy. You have more to swing that way. Oh for sure. Wide shoulders... To rotate around the spine. Often times equate, especially when they learn striking sports at an early age. They learn how to develop that snap and fluidity to their strikes. And a lot of muscle bound guys don't. Don't, right? Or if they do, they have it for like 30 seconds. I want you to go talk to Dana and get this going. We need height divisions. We need testosterone divisions. It's too complicated. We're not going to have that. We're not going to have that. Estosterone level divisions, estrogen level divisions. I think we're literally one generation away from being able to use CRISPR and all these new genetic engineering tools to make people whatever style of person you want. I think you're going to be able to develop six foot four super athletes that look like Anthony Joshua or Vitaly Klitschko or Vladimir Klitschko. You're going to be able to make those now. What I would give for bionic knees, right? Knees are fucked up, right? That never... They're not. They're okay. They're problematic, but I can function fine, but they could go out at any time. But you know what I mean? If you never had to worry about that, you never had to worry. Can you imagine? Well, if you could just redo them. God. But I'm telling you what they were talking about before the podcast, what they're doing now with stem cells, with soft tissue injuries, it's tremendous. It's never happened before. What they're able to do to people that have meniscus injuries is literally shoot stem cells in there and you regenerate meniscus tissue. That's just never happened before. I think that this is baby steps. I think what we're at right now is really, really young. I don't think 20, 30 years from now, because 20 years ago, they didn't really use it at all. 20 years from now, I think it's going to be insane. They're going to be able to... I mean, they regenerated a woman's bladder using her skin tissue. They built her a bladder. She had bladder cancer. They built her a bladder and then reinstalled it in her body. Now, she has a functional bladder that came out of her own body that they regenerated. I think they're going to be able to do that with tendons and ligaments and all sorts of tissue. I believe it. Hopefully, this is really promising. They're going to be able to do that with brain tissue. People that have had brain injuries, people that have had CTE, they're hopefully going to be able to use some of these therapies to regenerate brain tissue. Wow. Yes. That's huge. Neuroregenesis is like... That's the promise line. God bless them. I don't know anything about science. I'm just a complete idiot when it comes to math and science, but man, just go for it. By the way, as far as universities, I am the harshest critics of universities generally, but mostly what I'm talking about is actually the humanities and social sciences when I do that. What goes on in the biology building, the chemistry building, the physics building? I don't know, but I know that what comes out of them is a better life for me and all of us. They're making the stuff that you're talking about. Go for it. Renegade universities, we're not going to do no science. We're going to let Harvard and MIT keep going. Nevada guys, because you're doing great stuff. I have no critique of that. As far as I know, there's nothing going on there that's wrong, but it's just the humanities and social sciences that are utterly corrupt. We got way off the track here. What we were talking about initially was Jordan Peterson, what you disagree with him when it comes to gender, and what you agree with him when it comes to the suppression of expression of professors and people worried about being called racist and sexist and anything else stifling free speech. What he's facing is even worse than what goes on in the United States in a sense in that it's now legal persecution. It's against the law to not use these gender pronouns in your class, which is that suppression of speech, that suppression of academic freedom. It's a complete violation of those things, in fact, and that's totalitarian. There's no two ways around it. My uncle, Canada has these laws. They have a human rights commission, I think it's called, or human something commission. Yeah, human rights council. Council, and it's like this body of people who sit there and decide who should have a website or not. My uncle, this actually happened to him about 10 years ago. He was accused of being a Holocaust denier. I don't even know exactly what he was saying on there, but he's a Ukrainian, and I think he was just defending these Ukrainians who were accused of being Nazis during the World War II. I don't know. I don't know. Even if he were a Holocaust denier, he should have his website. The Canadian, you go to that URL, it's shut down. In fact, they put a banner now. It says, this is now controlled by the Canadian government or something. Whoa. Oh yeah, no. They have no free speech in Canada. There's no doctrine, legal or otherwise, in Canada of free speech. It's bad. That's what Jordan Peterson's facing. It's because he's Canadian. This would not happen in the United States until, of course, the sociologists take control, and then they will have these laws. We don't have them here. So he actually could go to prison. That's what's happening. He could go to prison for not saying zer in his class. There was an article that Vice published that someone linked to me today about this that I did not read yet, because I announced that Jordan is going to be returning to the podcast, and someone was saying that his interpretation of these laws is greatly exaggerated. See if you can find that. It's a very recent Vice article. I'm pretty sure it's illegal. Legal means you can go to prison ultimately. I don't think Jordan's wrong, and I don't think he would exaggerate. No, no, no. I looked into this. It's illegal, because that matters a lot to me. Of course. Yeah. I am 100% in solidarity with him on that. He's completely right that the state, no one should be telling him what to say in his classroom, and certainly he shouldn't be going to prison for it, or being threatened in any way legally. Even if it's just a fine. A fine, right? People don't understand this. It's incredible how people don't understand that everything the state does is enforce by the threat of ultimate violence. My mother even said this recently. She said, oh, there's no violence with parking tickets. They just send you a fine. I said, oh, really? If you get the fine and you don't pay it, what happens? Oh, we get another notice, and then another notice, right, mom? And then another notice. And then finally, what happens? Corinne Gaines, this black woman in Maryland a couple years ago, this is exactly what happened. She got a bunch of traffic tickets, and she refused to pay them. And ultimately, what happened? The SWAT team came to her house, and she pulled a gun, and they shot her in the head. That was over traffic fines. Okay, that's what happens. That's what it means to make something illegal. At the end of the day, for it to be meaningful as a law, the state has to use lethal violence to enforce it. Or the potential for lethal violence. Yeah, in other words, if you don't pay your taxes, even if it's $100 in taxes, ultimately, otherwise the law is meaningless, right? They have to put you in prison or kill you.