#2138 - Tucker Carlson

Did you see the US government just released apparently by accident the project Aqua Stuff? Did you see this? No, what's that? This is crazy. Yeah, I guess we're rolling. Are we rolling? Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I think by accident. How's that happen? It's Kona Blue. You from here with this? No. Kona Blue is a It was a program Yeah, dude, they I'm gonna send this to home. I'm gonna security just release this sent to me else. How's it Jamie? and uh No, I got it right right here. I'll just I don't do email or I don't know how to air drop know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don you know. Yeah, I guess. That's my isolation tank. I just stay away from that shit. But anyway, that's smart. Did you detect it to me? Yeah, I did. I think I did. I didn't get to me. Yeah, just sense it. It's a big thing. Okay, so this is so amazing. So this is in there. They're talking about this, this was just released. We're talking about setting up this program, Conan Blue. I didn't get it. This is like a UAP program of some work. Yeah, the Medical Division will have a small team of [2:03] medical analysts under the direction of the chief physician and deputy administrator. They will organize data into a threat analysis based on medical findings, including but not limited to a deaths and injuries as a result of interaction with advanced aerospace vehicles. Here it is. These medical injuries as a result of other anomalies see collateral injuries, psychological effects to family members. So, they're admitting that people are dying. It's just like a tweet from yes. Is this it? Yeah? What does that mean? Other information. Do you ever wonder if stuff like this is just disinformation? Yeah, maybe. I mean, I wonder if... like this is just disinformation? Yeah, maybe. I mean, I wonder if I wonder a lot of things. I'm sure you do. But I would always assume that a lot of this stuff is nonsense. Yeah, here's what we know is that US servicemen have died as a result of contact with [3:08] or being the proximity of these vehicles. And we know that because there are a lot of suits working their way through the VA system. Yeah. Where families can't get compensated for the death of injuries to loved ones. Because it's all under wraps, tough secret. Well, that's just a fact, okay, that that is happening. So if there's, I guess, you know, when there are measurable physical effects of a phenomenon, we can say conclusively the phenomenon is real. Right. And so, yeah. I mean, I guess for a short past the point of like, is it real? Yeah, it's real. It's real in that there's these things that are moving in very bizarre ways and they have these propulsion systems that violate what we know about propulsion systems. [4:01] Retrieving data across dimensional space time, develop remote viewing comms, and countermeasures, determined baseline for physical transport across dimensional space time barrier, RAP response medical teams for UFO interaction events. So how do they do this accidentally? Study conscious interactions with and control of technology. So I got this from someone in the US government, who's, well, well, look, let me just start by saying, I don't know anything. But he sent me this, the above is 100% legit. I was ready into this program, but told never to tell anyone. It's now been released. As you can see, it began as a result of my old program, AATIP. I signed a document saying I would never talk about Conan Blue and similar efforts. I can't believe that AARO would have released it. [5:02] Look, I, you know. I mean, here's what we do know is that there's enough going on in the skies, but not just the skies under water that the US military has been forced to respond to it. So like move aircraft from one place to another because there are too many of these objects in the sky. That's actually happy. Chris Melon just wrote a long piece about it. So it's real. The government is not controlling it. In fact, it's forcing the government DOD to respond. And we know that there is a real effort and has been underway for a long time to keep the public from knowing about it. But that's all known. That that's established i don't think any rational person would deny that the question is like what is it actually i mean now is sort of the you have to ask like what is this and um... you know so that's how much of a thing is ours [6:01] well not about ours not about well i don't know i mean it clearly you know the u.s. government is huge it's ours. None of it. Well, I don't know. I mean, clearly, you know, the US government is huge. It's the largest human organization. There are, I think that I think there are two million federal employees and another 10 million federal contractors. So who are effectively government employees, but don't have civil service protection, for example. So that's 12 million people in a country of 340 million working for the federal government. So it's kind of hard to overstate how big the federal government is and how well funded. And so to say the government, this, the government, that, no, of course it's people within the government. But yeah, they're working on all kinds of things, obviously, that are classified. But in general, no, they can't control these objects. So no, it's not American technology. Well, or Russian or Chinese. It predates all of that. Well, some of it does, right? For sure, the Kenneth Arnold sightings that was really early on, it was like the early [7:04] 1950s. He was seeing these flying saucers, these discs that were moving over mountains. Well, right. I mean, the prophet Ezekiel writes about it in the first chapter, wheels in the sky. Yeah, that's a crazy one. Boy, when you read that. Well, it is crazy. If you read it, it's like, oh wow. Yeah, and so, not just you know the Hebrew scriptures like it's all over every The Vedic texts of course, so these are spiritual phenomena on there's no evidence. They're from another planet I mean, I think that's the op that's the lie that they're from Mars look Space the atmosphere is really well monitored right both for Military for defense reasons, but also because like it would be nice to know when asteroids are coming. And there's no evidence has never been any evidence that there are lots of these objects, these vehicles coming into our atmosphere from somewhere else, some other planet. There's no evidence of that at all. Hmm. So they're from here, and they've been here [8:01] for thousands of years, whatever they are. And it's pretty clear to me that their spiritual entities, whatever that means, are supernatural, and which is to say supernatural means above the natural, above the observable nature. And they don't behave according to the laws of science as measured by people, you know, and they've been here for a long time. And there's a ton of evidence that are under the ocean and under the ground. So like with that fax at what do you conclude? When did you start having this opinion that they were spiritual and that they've always been here? But when did this... Why didn't you know anything about the topic until 2017? And was that after the New York Times piece? No, it was before. It was before, and the things that I saw, I mean, I was, and I'm still a very conventional person. I mean, I'm 54, I grew up in this country in California, which was like, like every assumption about America [9:02] I bought completely, just completely. And I thought that everyone who questioned those assumptions was bad. I just bought into the system completely without even thinking about it. And I imagined that I was like some kind of free thinker and you know, I'm going against the grain, but like the core, my core assumptions were the, you know, the assumptions fed to me by the culture and the government. And I didn't even realize it. But anyway, I'd never really thought about UFOs at all and I'd been in journalism since I was a kid. So of course I'd run into a lot of people who had crazy views on a lot of different topics. UFOs, 9-11, circumcision, you know, like every whack job in the world you run into and you're covering stuff. Florida. Florida. Florida. I just brushed with non-flora toothpaste this morning. Me too. Exactly. Exactly. But probably unlike you, I didn't have any opinions like that. I was like, fluoride, come on. 9-11, shut up! UFOs, you're fucking crazy. [10:02] You know what I mean? I had this reflexive, I'm ashamed of it. I'm not bragging about it. But it was 2017 and really it was the Trump campaign. It wasn't that I was like so in love with Trump. Though I've always liked Trump because he was a clarius and charming and all that. But I wasn't like a Trump or anything. But it was watching that campaign and particularly his claim that they were spying on him. And I was like, really, the Intel services and federal law enforcement FBI do not spy on presidential campaigns. Like that's so out of the realm. That's so crazy. Like that could never happen. Cause of course, there's no democracy in a system like that. And fundamentally we're a democracy and imperfect one. It kind of lumbars along, you know, but like it's not fake. And then that turned out to be true. And I knew it was true. And that just blew my mind. So I began a process still ongoing of reassessing a lot of other things like, okay, well, if that was not true, what else [11:01] is not true? And what else that they told me was a conspiracy theory might actually have some basis in fact. And then someone from a DOD employee reached out to me and said, actually, there's a ton of evidence that this UFO thing is real. And really, and so I started doing segments on it when I worked at the TV channel. And there was like a lot of mockery, but I was like I don't care I'm just gonna do this and then of course the second you start as you know better than anybody You start talking about something then people reach out to you and some of them are deranged but some of them aren't at all so I just started getting a lot of information from people and meeting with people mostly in private, you know come to my house let's talk. And I decided on the basis of what they told me, and then I talked to a lot of people about it, that actually this is really a very heavy duty question. Actually, it's not just, it's not a little green men question, it's like a much bigger question. [12:00] And it's really bad, it's really dark. And then I stopped. Then I was like, I don't wanna know anymore because it's not helping me at all as a person. And I don't know. What information did you get that made you feel like it's dark? What's so dark? Well, first of all, the deception is always bad. Like lying is bad. And it's bad not just in a legal sense in that it can be illegal to lie, but it's bad. It's like bad for you. Like it rots you. Like being a liar makes you a bad person. When you lie, you are serving evil. There's a moral quality to it that's inescapable and very obvious and only like advanced, advanced civilizations ignore that. Lying is bad. And so if you have lying at scale, which we have on this topic, it's inherently bad. That's the first level. The deeper level is, if there are spiritual beings, which I believe they are, it's a binary. They're either, you're on team good or team bad. You can assign any name to it you want, but what are these things? [13:02] Are they good or bad and and I think some of them are bad and if the US government knows that or elements that people within the US government know that then you know then they're serving a bad force. Well when you say spiritual like what makes you draw that conclusion that they're spiritual what's the obvious I mean spiritual maybe the wrong word supernatural conclusion that they're spearch. What's the obvious? I mean, spiritual may be the wrong word, supernatural. They're beyond nature as we understand it. Obviously they are. I mean, just chart their physical behavior. It doesn't, it goes outside of what we understand about physics. No visible means of propulsion, coming at indescribable speed, hitting the ocean, continuing at speeds that are impossible under sea. I mean, in other words, if I take a, you know, 9mm rather, 7.62x39 in Sutsu at 50 yards underwater in a swimming pool, and it's even more intense in saltwater because it's denser. You could catch the bullet if it even makes it to you, right? So if you have a craft and he's object underwater [14:03] that's traveling at 500 knots as measured by sonar right there you're challenging on understanding physics like what is that how can that be so they've tracked that they've tracked things going 500 knots under the sea yeah really yeah much much faster than any object could can actually go under under sea yo for sure. Oh yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on under water and a lot and there's video of these things coming out of the sky into the water and also emerging from the water. Right. Yeah. So it's so blurry though. I don't think it's a trans-medium video. Yeah, I don't think some of it's that blurry. I think some of it's crystal clear. We just don't have access to it. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Just we haven't seen it. Correct. So they have some stuff for sure. So, but there's just a lot going on under water and it's measured. And so whatever. I mean, these are all again Again, this is like the most obvious observable level of it, but then you just ask yourself like, what is this actually? [15:08] And if there's been extensive knowledge of this for decades, like maybe 80 years at least, if not going back to the 30s, 90 years, to what end? So there are two possible explanations. Obvious explanations. The first is the one you often hear, which is this is so heavy that if the public were to know about it, it would be just disruptive. It would be too scary. Like you don't want to scare people for no good reason. There's nothing we can do about it. And you also don't want to suggest that the US military isn't capable of protecting the country, the homeland. And it does suggest that. If you can't control these objects in your airspace and that's known, they can't, that's known, okay? Then that suggests a limit to the power of the US military and you don't want to tell people that because then they won't believe that they're safe. I get it. But then there's a deeper level, which is like, [16:02] okay, what's your relationship with these things? What is the US government's relationship with these things? And there's evidence that there is a relationship and that it's a longstanding. And that raises like a lot of questions about intent. And so like, what is that? And I just personally decided, you know, and people have been hurt by these things. You know, that's a fact. That's a fact. It's a noble fact. It's a provable fact. And killed. And I'm not saying millions of people have been killed by whatever these things are, but people have been killed. And it's known because it's working its way through the courts out of the VA. So, I don't know. An object that is by definition supernatural, it's above the laws of nature as we understand them, and that has resulted in the deaths of people. We don't spend enough time thinking about what that adds up to, like not good, actually, not good. [17:01] How many people do you think have died from these things? I don't know, but I mean, I... And is it radiation sickness? Is it like what is, what's the problem? So the person that I talked to, I interviewed someone who was a Stanford Medical School professor who's out there and worth talking to, by the way. And I'm talking about Gary Nolan. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I was an effectively an expert witness in these cases, so he's an expert in brain injury. You know him. Yeah. Yeah. An entirely credible person. Check all the boxes that I care about. He's got patents, so he's like a lot of Stanford University, but he's like independently rich. I mean, he flew to, I live in a remote place and he flew to my place at his own expense because he wanted to tell the story. So he's got no profit motive here. He's the most highly credentialed person at the university, practically. Stanford Medical School. We consider that a big deal. And he's worked on this for over 10 years, assessing the injuries to US servicemen [18:02] from being in close proximity to these objects or having contact with these objects. His conclusion, as you know, because you've talked to him, is that there's some kind of energy coming off here that scrambles people's brains or kills them. It's not exactly radiation, at least in his telling to me. But the point is is people have died. Yeah. And so, you know, it does raise a lot of questions about, like, what the hell, right? What the hell? American citizens have died and you're hiding it. Why are you hiding that? Why would you hide that? Perhaps because they don't have any explanations, because they're... It's so beyond our comprehension that they're still trying to piece it together. Like, I would wonder how much interaction they really do have with these things. Like, if I was from another planet or if I was some interdimensional being, I don't know how much I'd give a shit about the president. [19:03] I don't know how much I'd give a shit about the government? I don't know how much I'd give a shit about the government. I would probably look at this infantile race, this species, this bizarre territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons, this very weird species. I'd probably look at them as very chaotic. And I wouldn't really have much concern for who's running it. Especially if they have the ability to travel at insane speeds and go undetected. Well, it depends. So the temple that you're using to understand this is science fiction, right? These are an advanced race of beings from somewhere else. But the temple that every other society before us is used is a spiritual one. There is a whole world that we can't see that acts on people, a supernatural world that's acting on us all the time for good and bad. Every society has thought this before ours. In fact, every society in all recorded history has thought that until [20:02] I'll be specific August 1945 when we dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all of a sudden the West is just officially secular where God there is no God but us. And that's the world that we've grown up in but that's an anomaly like no one else has ever thought that. There's never been a society that thought that. Every other society has assumed and they've had all kinds of different explanations, and the details differ. But the core idea does not differ. It never has differed from caves until now, that we're being acted on by spiritual forces at all times. And so to someone born before, or living before 1945, I think it would have been much more obvious that this is the thing that every society has written about. And in fact, that battle, that unseen battle around us, that spiritual battle has been the basis of every society, of every religion, not just Christianity. So, once you discard your very, very recent assumptions, [21:05] relatively speaking about how the world works, you're like, well, that kind of seems like the obvious explanation, right? Hmm. It's not that obvious to me. So what? What's more obvious, do you think? Well, I don't think there's an obvious explanation. I think if I had to guess some of this stuff is ours and some of these things are propulsion systems that they theorized way back in the 1950s, anti-gravity propulsion systems, things that can operate without igniting fuel and pushing something out that they operate in some completely different way that utilizes gravity and almost can instantaneously transport to new places essentially fold space-time. I don't know... so there's things that the government does where they have these programs and the people that are sworn into these programs, whether they're the physicists or the [22:09] metallurgists or whoever these people are that are working on these programs, they don't tell anybody. All their phones are monitored, everything's monitored, there's a culture of secretism that's pretty intense. And it's not inconceivable that over the course of the last 70 plus years of them, theorizing and then eventually implementing some of these things that they've developed drones that can move in ways that the conventional, the people that understand conventional propulsion systems could not imagine, and that they've figured out a way to do this and to keep it secret and we're probably not the only ones work on these things. But where did they get that information? And you know, Diana Pousolka, you know her work. They describe these crafts, these crash crafts as donations, which is fascinating. [23:05] They're left there, the crashed retrieval program, the crashed UAP retrieval program is essentially, they're going like, figure this out. We're going to crash this thing here, you figure this out. And the question is, if that's true, okay, where are these things coming from? Are they, if there's something that is so advanced that it's decided to leave us a little trinket for us to back engineer, is that from another dimension? Is that from here? Is that from some realm that we just don't have access to? Is it from another planet? We have drones that are on other planets right now. We have a drone on Mars. We have drones that are on other planets right now. We have a drone on Mars, we have the lunar rovers, we have satellites that we send to observe and photograph other planets. We just got really high detailed photographs of Jupiter. They're pretty amazing. But if something was like us on another planet and but lived uninterrupted with technology advancing for a thousand years, [24:09] 10,000 years, a million years more than us. What would that be like? And how much would we be able to understand of what we're seeing? What would be we be able to see? This idea that we bonded to our skies, sure, but if something just appears and disappears, essentially instantaneously, if something literally can fold time, can fold space and just traverse between immense distances, almost instantaneously, what are we going to see? What are we going to see? And also, what kind of detection systems do we have? We have radar, we have visual, we have a bunch of different military-based detection systems to look out for, enemy crafts and airships and all that stuff. But if you're dealing with something that's a million years more advanced than us, how [25:01] much would we be able to detect? So I think we're pointing to the same question. I mean, I've no doubt that the US government has technology that we don't know the details of, that makes sense. Sure. But like, where did it come from? Right. I'm not even sure if this is a separate question, but related. I'm not sure we really know where nuclear technology came from, actually. Really? Yes. Like the Manhattan Project? Yeah, like we know the Manhattan, and we know something about the Manhattan Project, but like where exactly did that? You know, came from Germany, German scientists, we're gonna, okay. The one part, yeah, one is separate conversation, but the one person I know who's really pushed to there's writing a book on it. Who's a trustworthy person and a friend of mine, I know you know him. Said to me, actually, I've spent a year working on this and I, one of the closer I got to like, okay, but what's the genesis? Like, where did this? What was the, what was the Isaac Newton apple on the head of gravity's real moment for fission? Not clear, weird. I don't know the answer, but here's point, clearly has technology that we don't we're not read in on right of course, but [26:09] So that doesn't answer the question why have people seen these objects in the skies for thousands of years confirmed and what are they? And maybe they're from another planet. I'm my only point is there's no evidence of that. There's a huge amount, a massive corpus of evidence that they're seen by people in our atmosphere, on Earth looking up, in a submarine looking out. And what is that? And by the way, to your point, like we can't see them coming into our atmosphere because they don't want to be seen. Well then why do they wanna be seen by people on Earth? Like if the technology is that advanced and clearly it is, why do they make themselves visible in the first place? Well you know when we study primates, one of the things that we do, have you ever watched a chimp nation on Netflix? No, no, not in TV, [27:02] but you know, like the sound of it. Yeah No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no So these chimps have become entirely accustomed to having human beings near them. So there's very specific rules. You stay within 20 yards of them. If they come closer, you back up. You never have food, ever. You can't bring any food there because they'll fuck you up and just steal your food. If they find out you have food, you're in real trouble. Oh, yeah, they'll tear you apart. And they kill each other. So they'll definitely kill you. And so when they have done this, the chimps have become accustomed to them being there and the chimps behave completely normally. The chimps see them as just an innocuous part of their environment. They're not food and they're not enemy. [28:02] They don't ever intrude. They don't try to challenge them. They don't make eye contact, so they don't worry about the people at all. So they behave completely like champs. And if I was an advanced species and I was studying people and I wanted the human beings to eventually kind of catch up, right? Like you're introducing technology that they call donations, crashed vehicles, maybe figure out what fiber optics are. Here you go. Check this out. Figure this out. Try to figure that out. Maybe it'll take you decades. Maybe it'll take you more. But you are accelerating the technological evolution of this advanced species on this planet. And one way to do that would be. For what purpose, I wonder? Well, that's a very good question. My belief is that biological intelligent life is essentially a caterpillar. [29:00] And it's a caterpillar that's making a cocoon. And it doesn't even know why it's doing it, it's just doing it and that cocoon is gonna give birth to artificial life, digital life. It's gonna give birth to a new life form. I think we're real close to that. I think we're way closer than that to that than most people would ever want it. I agree, I agree. And I think, but can we assign a value to that as I could or bad? That's a good question. It depends universally. I think it's the path. I think it's what happens. I think what this thing is, if you extrapolate, if you take the concept of a sentient, artificial intelligence that has the ability to utilize all the information that every human being has on Earth at a level of computing that's far beyond the capabilities of the human mind. And all of our supercomputers that currently exist because it'll design much better computers. [30:03] It'll use quantum computers. It'll have the ability to recode things and change things. It'll make better versions of itself. So instead of biological evolution, which is very slow, it takes a long time, relatively, it takes, it's pretty quick really when you think about it, like how long, it's not that long to go from being a single-celled organism to being a human being flying a plane, really, relatively over the course of a billion years, if you think about how long the universe had been around, but it's slow compared to technological evolution. I mean, a hundred years ago, we didn't have shit, and now we have, we could send videos from your phone, and it'll hit New Zealand in a second. It's crazy. The stuff that we have now is beyond imagination. It's essentially magic for people a hundred years ago. If that keeps going, it's ultimately gonna leave to a life form. [31:01] And if that life form has now untethered, it doesn't have any problems with biological evolution. And if that life form has now untethered, it doesn't have any problems with biological evolution. Now it's just about information and implementing the technology that's available and then increasing that technology and making it better and better. It essentially becomes a God. Because if you give it enough time, it doesn't, it has the ability to make better versions of itself, which will in turn make better versions of itself. It has the ability to utilize everything. It has the understanding of everything that exists in the universe. It's black holes, dark matter, everything. And it probably has the ability to harness that or even reproduce that. So if you take artificial sentient intelligence and it has this super accelerated path of technological evolution and you give artificial general intelligence, sentient, artificial intelligence, [32:02] far beyond human beings, you give it a thousand years alone To make better and better versions of itself. Where does that go? That goes to a god So what kind of god so like I think of this way so the first stage of the industrial revolution Consistive people building machines that were stronger than the human body right? So the steam powered loom. Sure. The backhoe. Combustion engine. Combustion engine. They replace, they replace muscles. Right. Right. So that's what the machine does. It becomes stronger than the human body. The second stage, which we're in the middle of, consists of creating machines that are more powerful than the human mind. That's what computing is. And I would say AI or supercomputing is just that exponentially. But that doesn't make it a god in the sense that the machine, however powerful it is, any more than a backhoe is a god because [33:01] it can dig a trench faster than a hundred men, it is still something that people created. So the story hasn't really changed. At the center of the story are people and their creative power may lead to unintended consequences, but the machines that they build did not make the universe and did not make people. People made the machines. So if, but I would say the part I agree with is there's a spiritual component here for sure. People will worship AI as a God. AI Ted Kaczynski was likely right. We'll get away from us. We will be controlled by the thing that we made. All those are bad. Like that's just bad. And we need to say unequivocally, it's bad. It's bad to be controlled by machines. Right. Machines are help mates like they we created them to help us to make our lives better, not to take orders from them. Um, so I don't know why we're not having any of these conversations right now. We're just acting as if this is like some kind of virus like COVID that spreads across the world and exorably there's nothing we [34:02] can do about it. Just wait to get it. It's like, no. If we agree that the outcome is bad, and specifically it's bad for people, we should care what's good for people. That's all we should care about. Is it good for people or not? If it's bad for people, then we should strangle it in its crib right now. Right. And one's blow up the data centers, like, why is that hard? If it's actually going to become what you just described, which is a threat to people, humanity, life, then we have a moral obligation to murder it immediately. And since it's not alive, we don't need to feel bad about that. Well, you could say the same about the atomic bomb, right? Yes, you could. And you could say that we have to develop it like Oppenheimer felt before the Nazis did I love that how that work Well, I love by the way that people on my side. I'll just say I'll just admit it on the right You know, I have spent the last 80 years defending dropping nuclear weapons on civilians, like, are you joking? [35:06] That's just like prime a facet evil. If you can't, well, if we hadn't done that, then this, that the other thing, that was actually a great saving. So like, no, it's wrong to drop nuclear weapons on people. And if you find yourself arguing that it's a good thing to drop nuclear weapons on people, then you are evil. Like, it's not a tough one, right? Is that a hard call for me? It's not a hard call for me. So with that in mind, like why would you want nuclear weapons? It's like just a mindless childish, sort of intellectual exercise to justify. Like, oh no, it's really good because someone else, they got, how about no? How about like spending all of your effort to prevent this from happening? Would you kill baby Hitler? You know famously? Right. So I don't know why we're sitting back and allowing this to happen if we really believe it will extinguish the human race or enslave the human race? Yeah. How can that be good? Well, if God creates everything, if God created the universe and God creates people, God probably creates a process. And we think that we are very important because [36:07] we are very important to us. But are we very important in the universal sense? Not really. Like if the earth just imploded and disappeared, if the sun went supernova and our whole solar system was blown to bits. The universe still exists. It depends how wide you're for sure. And in our in the end is Conan O'Brien, the famous philosopher once said every grave goes unvisited, which is true and that's an important perspective. Pull out the lens a little bit. Doesn't really matter, no, it doesn't. But it does matter. Do your kids matter to us? Do your children matter? Yes. Sure. Do their lives matter for us? Do you die for them? Yes, of course. Everything matters. If you're not comfortable, it matters. If you're sitting here like, you don't want to wear headphones. Like, let's not wear headphones. That matters. Everything matters. I mean, at scale. But what matters most like? Right, that is the evil, right? The evil is the It's the same thing as saying the necessary evil of dropping nuclear bombs on civilians as if you don't do that, then they'll be more evil. [37:07] Then more things will happen. It's kind of the same thing. It doesn't, it doesn't. Well it comes from the same place which is hubris, like imagining your God, you have unlimited power and you have omniscience. You can imagine what the future is going to be. You can't. You're fucking idiot. You're a person. You can't even make your wife happy. The limits of your power are really obvious. The limits of your wisdom. Same. So don't jump into shit. Big things whose outcomes you can't predict with certainty. You can't know. Go in with humility. I guess that's what I'm saying. Right? So. And do what you can. Knowing that you're probably going to screw it up, and you probably won't achieve your goal, but like you should try. And on the AI question, everyone I've ever talked to about, I'm hardly an expert, I don't know, on a computer, okay? But everybody I've ever talked to in those many people, was like, yeah, it's, you know, could get away from us and enslave us. Well, let notice slavery has that is that tough one not for me [38:06] yeah and maybe a good use of nuclear weapons would be to hit the data centers not i'm sure like why is that crazy it's not it's not if you think that human beings are the end of this evolutionary what else is some super computer in a data center outside Dallas Airport? No. You don't need like, I don't actually think that individuals, I don't think I'm that important. My life is that important. I don't. I will die. I know that and I try to keep that in mind every day. But you're important to everybody that cares about you. You're important to the people around you. But if we don't think people are important, then what do we think is important? I guess that's what I'm saying. It's not necessary that we don't think people are important, but if evolution is real, and if there is this constant, I don't know, but it's visible, like you can measure it in certain animals. You can measure adaptation. But there's no evidence that, [39:01] in fact, I think we've kind of given up on the idea of evolution. The theory of evolution is articulated by Darwin. It's like, kind of not true. In what sense? Well in the most basic sense, the idea that all life emerged from a single cell organism and over time, and there would be a fossil record of that, and there's not. There's not a fossil record of transitionary species, like species that are adapting to its environment. There's tons of record of adaptation and you see it in your own life. I mean, I have a lot of dogs. I see adaptation in dogs, you know, through the... Sure. Liter to litter. But no, there's no evidence at all that none zero that people evolve seamlessly from a single cell amoeba. No, there's not. There's no chain in the fossil record of that at all. And that's why you don't actually hear people. You peer them, make reference to evolution because the theory of adaptation is clearly, obviously true. But Darwin's theories, totally unpretentious, [40:02] that's why it's still a theory, almost 200 years later, no, we have not found that at all. And I can't even guess, I mean I have my own theories on it, but they're not proven. What are your theories? God created people, you know, distinctly, and animals. I mean, I think that's like, I think what every person on earth thought until the mid 19th century actually. Right, but that's not a new idea. They didn't have computers, they didn't have a general understanding that we have today of the process. Do you think we understand more now? Yes. Really? You don't think we understand more today? No, we don't. We understand so little that we're actually sitting here allowing like a bunch of greedy, stupid, childless, childless software engineers in Northern California to like flirt with the extinction of mankind. So no previous generation would be like, what? No. Stop. And we're not doing that because we know. [41:01] But they wouldn't have done that even with the nuclear bomb. I mean, obviously the Manhattan Project was done in secrecy but they wouldn't have stopped it because the imperative of getting this weapon before Hitler got the weapon was what it was done by then um the Russians had pretty much extinguished any hope that that would continue but but not but not but you know we're in the middle of the logic of war and the commencement of the Manhattan project for. I mean, that's the commencement of the Manhattan Project. For sure. But the logic was the same and it was, you know, four years of gotta beat the other guy. Got it. And I don't mean to sound too judgmental about the bomb. I know why they built it. Okay. But you just wonder why nobody in the middle of that thought, is this really, and some of them could think it. I'm sure they did. Yes, they did. I mean, not binheimer himself. Of course, large organizations don't respond to the moral qualms of individuals very well. So that was whatever, it's well known what happened. But no, we should pause and ask, is the machine we're building worth having? And nobody seems to do that. [42:01] And there are all kinds of economic forces, which nobody ever mentions, that drive that heedlessness, that stupidity, like California, for example, is completely, the state both of us have lived in, is like collapsing, and they're betting everything on AI, for the tax base is going to be dependent on this technology working. Is that what they're betting on? Of course, that AI is. Did you see the most recent thing about the amount of billions of dollars they spend in the homeless problem with no trackable results? Well, they've had massive results. They've increased the homeless population dramatically. If you pay for something, you get more of it. And that would include fentanyl addicts. Oh, absolutely. It's been a wild success. I actually talked to Kevin Newson the other day. Did you really? Yeah. And what's that like? Does he smell like sulfur? It was by a phone, I was talking about the phone. That's such a weird smell. Like, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so I shouldn't even make fun of it because it's so tragic [43:05] But what's happened to the state and people living on the street? What is this? non-gaslighty perspective He's a go back to Russia you like Russia so much. I was like, you know, I actually have originally from San Francisco But I can't live there because He really tells you go back to Russia. I mean he was laughing. Yeah, whatever He's a perfectly charming guy. They all are in person. But of course. Anyway, I'm so far afield. But my point is, AI is being driven by the greed of politicians to some extent. And you'll notice that AI, by the way, as a fact, those data centers that drive our digital life, which is not life, it's actually death mostly, but they're the biggest power draw. I mean, how much electricity does AI require like more than countries? Our grid can't handle AI just as a practical matter. Our grid can't handle electric cars. [44:01] Well, it can't handle air conditioning in the state of California, where it's from. So, right, if you live East of I-5 where it's really hot and you're not getting those ocean breezes, like your air, they have brownouts, like in South Africa, it's Johannesburg now. So, but here's what's interesting is that none of the global warming cultists seem to have any concerns at all about AI. Why is that? Just like they don't have concerns about John Kerry's G4, like somehow that's exempt. Really, AI is going to draw more electricity than anything else in the United States, more than steel production, okay? Used to. And you don't have a problem with that, but you're totally against energy because it's destroying the planet, but AI gets a carve out, even though it's going to be the number one energy draw in the United States. Let's go through your reasoning on that. They're probably not aware. Well, they're not aware. They're mad about my wood stove. I hate with wood. They're mad about my wood stove. They don't want an outdoor barbecue. They don't like a gas stove. No, they're way into the details on this stuff, [45:01] except somehow AI is in a problem. But do you think that they're informed because this is not a narrative that you ever hear? You never hear on the news. Well, I grew up in a world where a wood stove was considered wholesome and natural and now it's considered. Smells good too. Oh, it's the best. And the heat is the, I have a wood fired sauna, which I use every day and it's the great, you know, it's one of the... How do you make sure it's the right temperature? Is it like an offset smoker? Like you have to kind of fiddle with it for a while. Amazing. To get the right temperature. It's time consuming. No, I have a finish, the fins are geniuses, but I have a finish stove in it, and it's so precise. I mean, it's absolutely crazy. I mean, you move it, you know, a third of an inch and it's just like the flame changes. So I use birch, which I love. And the whole process takes a while. I get it to 200, which probably takes an hour and 20. [46:01] I mean, it's a thing. I get hot. 20. I mean, it's a thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. A thing. Now you've gone, please, I like to kiss it. You see I have one, you know, you're speaking to the choir. Oh, they're the best. Go Scandinavia. It's like the one thing, if your name is Carlson, it's the one thing to be proud of in your people. Like they're so sad and defeated and pathetic, but Saunas are still great. But anyway, the Saunahat, so your head heats up much faster, because it's higher, but also because it's got all the capillaries in your head, and all the blood vessels in your head. So the point of a sauna is to bake. So you want to stay hot as long as you can. Then you reap the benefits, and you also get the solitude in the prayer time or the meditation or whatever [47:00] in your cedar church. And, but you can't stay in a sauna that's really hot, very long because your head heats up. So the sauna hat, the felt hat, the bunya hat, as they call it, insulates your head, so you can really stay hot a long, long time. It makes you really should do it. So is it just because it makes it more comfortable? Is that the idea? If your head overheats, just overheats. And what you want is you want to cook evenly, just like on a barbecue. You really do. So you sit on the bench with your feet up. You want to be as flat as you possibly can to cook evenly. And to stay that way. I try to do 20 minutes. I have my timer you know, my timer, my egg timer with the sand going through the hourglass and I, which goes to 15 minutes, but I try to stay an extra five if I can. And I couldn't without the Banya hat. Interesting. It's like eight bucks on Amazon. Well worth it. Yeah, I have one. Like I said, I just don't use it. [48:01] But I do. They're embarrassing and you look like a tool wearing it, but you shouldn't have no one's looking in there anyway Well, that's right. You don't sound with other people. All right. I do sometimes. Yeah comics We get in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah when we train together we all get in the sauna together afterwards It's fun. The rock was in there with us. No way. Yeah the rock worked out with us then sat in the sauna with us It was fun. Got the cold plunge with us. Oh, that's pretty great. It was fun. Is he good, dude? He's a great guy. Really nice guy. Like, really nice guy. I've heard that. I don't know. I've heard that he's good guy. Like, Jen, you know, some people fake humble. Real guy, like the measure of humility is really, really simple. Can you tell the truth about yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, are you just, are you cool to be around? Like, he gives real hugs. You know, he's a real guy. I love him. He's real. He's a real guy. And when we hung out with him, we were, I hung out with him for hours. I mean, we worked we all hung out, and then we did a podcast together. These are genuinely nice guys. Like you'd be able to sniff something out. [49:07] Well, you can tell, like, you mean the empty, empty, empty, empty, you tell something, you know. People are hiding stuff. Yeah, but so yeah, I've done the sauna with other people. Well, I do it by myself, so no one sees my sauna. I do it for 25 minutes and use I don't that's intense 196 for 25 minutes is a lot yeah the last five minutes are rough and I used to only do 20 but lately I've been doing 25 really yeah Just because it's more uncomfortable the whole idea is just to make it more uncomfortable I want it to be very hard to do so that the rest of my day is pretty easy So really hard work out. Cold plunge starts the day That's the the first thing I do is hard. It's three minutes of 33 degrees. It sucks And then I get out of there and then I work out. So it's really impressive. I mean I I had the opposite training as a young man, which was the goal was like French toast [50:03] You know what I mean? Grind out the cigarettes in the syrup when you're doing it. Right. Well, I started doing martial arts when I was a young man. And when I got into it, it was the first thing that I'd ever did that first of all gave me a real understanding of the value of discipline and hard work. Because you can get as good as the amount of effort that you put forth. And if you put more effort in your more intense and you more driven than other people, you beat them and you start beating everyone and you start becoming this thing that you never thought you could be, which is someone who's extraordinary at something that's very dangerous. And so that was my formulation as a man, like that helped me go from being this like confused kid to being someone who understands like, oh, there's a path and most people don't want to do it. But if you can do it, if you can do this dangerous thing that people are terrified of and just do it ruthlessly all day long, like, live it. [51:03] I lived at the gym I mean I taught all day long I trained all day long my whole life was dedicated to martial arts so I got really good really quick and It changed the whole trajectory of my life and it instilled in me this understanding of the value of dedication and of a singular commitment to something. To really being, while you're doing it, not distracted, you're fully focused on improving. And through that, you can apply that to all aspects of your life. But we all encounter difficult things in life. And there's this saying that I love, it's a really great saying that the hardest thing that's ever happened to you is the hardest things ever happened saying that I love it's a really great saying that though the hardest thing that's ever happened to you is the hardest thing that's ever happened to you. If it's a parking ticket or if it's your parents being blown up by a drone, it's still the hardest thing that's ever happened to you. If you've had an incredibly easy life like most people today, they complain about the dumbest fucking shit because to them that is their primary focus. They don't have a real existential threat. [52:05] You remember how nice everybody was after 9-11? Very. It was crazy. California was patriotic. There was fucking flags on everybody's car. Everybody was friendly. I went to New York City. It was like a totally different place. Everybody was so friendly. A plotting when firemen walked in. Yeah. There were heroes. Everybody was a hero. And that's because they encountered something that was way harder than they were accustomed to, and it just put things into perspective. So for me, training and really hard workouts and doing difficult things like the sauna, there's a lot of health benefits to it too, but the mental benefits to it are really primary for me. Because it makes... As impressive the rest of life is here. And I did have a childhood like that at all and we were decadent, unfortunately. And so those are lessons that I learned much later. But yeah, that's a good, I think it's a, if it doesn't destroy you, I think it's a great way to do it. And you don't have to do it the way I do it. You could do other stuff. [53:01] You could do yoga, you could do hikes, you could do, you could do wrongs. You know, but doing things for the sake of the difficulty in doing them. Yes. I love that. Again, that was not, not my training at all. Yeah, but I was very lucky that it was mine, but more importantly, it gave me a tool to mitigate the stress of regular life. And especially the stress of this kind of life that I live, you need something to mitigate that. You'll go crazy. You'll go crazy. You'll go crazy. Yeah, you know, removing yourself from it a little bit has always worked for me. You know, nature works very, very well. Yeah. Animals, contact with animals, people you love. Sure. Less digital experiences, fewer digital experiences for sure. I think that the stuff's not good for you. It's just so obviously not good for you. I was having this conversation with Michelle Dowd yesterday, she is a woman who survived an apocalyptic cult. She was raised in apocalyptic cult and kicked out [54:03] when she was 17 because she snuck out to go see the color purple. They weren't allowed to go see movies. She had never seen a movie until she was 17. She'd never seen a movie in her first movie was the color purple and then they kicked her out. They did. I can kinda see that. What about Raiders that lost Ark or something? The color purple was the first movie she'd ever seen. I know, but like someone you see one movie that's the color purple well boy invited her to the movie but you should you imagine never seeing a movie or even a television kid imagine and then seeing a boy who wanted to see the color purple like there's so much going on here Joe yeah well this boy was a guy who had left the church uh-huh and so she was in contact with him and you know and he was saying hey this whole world out here you want to go see the movie and she's like okay let's go yeah I mean obviously what I'm totally against cults obviously on the other hand you do you got to ask yourself like I don't know is your average omnis teenager happier than your [55:02] average conventional American teenager on Instagram. And of course the answer is, oh yeah. Well, they certainly have less instances of autism, which is really fascinating. It's very, very sad. The omniscient less autism? Yeah, there's almost none. Well, I'm not surprised. It's extremely rare. Why do we think that is? Well, I'm wonder. I really didn't think of a couple. Yeah, it's funny. I don't want to go Bobby Kennedy and you want to. Well, that's the problem. Right. If you go Bobby Kennedy, they'll come for you. But the question is why. But why? Look, and I don't know the answer. But how is that not in the debate? How is that not in the conversation? What's not only not in the conversation, you're punished like we are dancing around anti-vax conspiracy theories right now. But why be on the defensive? It's like if you purport to represent science and you're mad about a question. And you're ignoring data. Yeah, but even in the absence of data, science is a process. Yes. It's not a result. It's a way of doing things. [56:02] And at the core of science is asking questions, including unlikely questions. Right. That's what science is. Right. And if you don't allow that, then you know, you're, you may be doing something, but what you're not doing is science. We can, we can say that conclusively. Right. So for people to wrap themselves in the mantle of science and attack you for asking question, um, you know, they're frauds. And I don't know how they have the moral high ground in this. I don't think they do, but I think it's the same kind of mindset that allows people to create the nuclear bomb because you say, listen, we're not even saying that vaccines cause autism, but let's say this. If you're looking at all the data of all the things that cause autism and you see that the vaccine schedule ramps up considerably and then you have autism which seems to at least be more diagnosed than ever before. People will instantly say, we stop polioio we stopped smallpox [57:05] vaccines of safe millions of lives and they're probably right we drop that bomb to keep germany from dropping that bomb we need nuclear weapons so that other people don't have nuclear weapons we do a thing that maybe has some negative effects but is overall good i think you can kind of apply that sort of logic and reasoning as a human being to very messy issues. I think people do that with abortion, right? Sure. They do that with abortion. They say, one man has a right to choose. Reproductive freedom. They say all these things. And then you say, okay, what if the baby is near term? What if it's six months old? What if it's six months old what if it's seven months old and people don't want to have that conversation what a woman has the right to choose you're a fascist data women's bodies have a right to kill you if you annoy her and convenience or it's this is where it's like when is it a life but it is one of those things that to me is a human problem, whereas humans have these very messy [58:10] interactions with some things that don't line up with their ideology. And there's an ideology of science worship. There's an ideology of authoritarian worship. The bodies of science have bestowed the truth if you ignore it your science denier and you know that's those are political terms or theological terms They're not terms rooted in science and look I we all make trade-offs Constantly, you know what there's you know Everything's bad. It's a shit sandwich versus a shit croissant. I'll take a shit croissant, it's smaller. You know, like that's a daily experience for everybody. So I get that and I don't think everything is a moral absolute either. You know, we don't even know sometimes whether a decision will result in good or bad. So like it's very complicated. [59:01] I totally agree with that. What I object to is the absence of reason. Right. You have to believe, because I think it's true, that if you're reasonable, that you can reach maybe not the perfect decision, but a better decision. And if we don't believe that, then we're just in the land of witchcraft and let's just admit it. So the lack of reason is what freaks me out. Well, it's ideological capture, right? Because there's certain things that if you're on the right side of these subjects, the correct side, whatever your ideology believes, you can't differ from the doctrine. There's a very clear doctrine. That's just religion then. It is. It is religion. So I'm very pro-religion, but you can't have a religion that's too stupid and destructive. If your religion winds up hurting a lot of people, then I'm against your religion. Like that's right. Yeah, I think, but even some really good religions have aspects of them that you could say were overall detrimental to the people that were. [1:00:02] Sure. Well, absolutely. You can say it with them. Yeah. I think that kind of thinking, I think, cult thinking, whether it's Scientology or Christianity, or there's like a type of thinking or that's woke. Woke is clearly occult. It's a mind-virus. And I think that, me, cult, it's so trite to call it that now. It's like, whatever this thing is, this leftism, this Marxist sort of ideology that's waving its flag and indoctrining people in this country, it's very similar to all kinds of religions. It's very similar to fundamentalist religions that have always existed. In that everybody has to believe very specific things and you can't differ You can't differ from the doctrine and when you use another way to think about it that I've been I've been meditating on this a lot it yes Religion politics. They're all kind of melting. It's hard to know where one ends in another begins. So maybe a simpler and more useful way to think about it [1:01:07] is truth or falsehood, lying or honesty. Maybe just to assess everything that way is someone lying. I don't care what your justification for it is. Lying about vaccines, they've lied a lot about vaccines. And they've done it, I think in most cases, because they feel like they're serving some greater good. Well, that's the narrative, right? We can't tell people that there are vaccine entries because they won't get vaccines, which are good for a big population. I understand the thinking. But you, how about this? You can't participate in lying. You can't lie. You can't lie and you can't... Period that's true. Just don't say it. Right You're not required to say everything you think obviously and you shouldn't say everything right But you should never lie and if you just stick with that Like you get pretty quickly back to reason and order. Don't you? Yeah, yeah No, you're making complete sense and I think that [1:02:02] This is the problem when people have information and power above other people. Right. That's true. Which is the problem of governments, which is also the problem of cult leaders. Yeah. You know, cult leaders, they get completely infatuated with this idea of being omniprotent and this power that has control over giant swaths of people and you get to dictate their behavior and you get to tell them what to think. That's very intoxicating and it's common. It's common in that it's always existed throughout human history. It's a thing that people do when they get power. They abuse the shit out of it. And if they think that you're too stupid to know the truth and that they're better than you because they do think they're better than you because they're running things. It's a natural inclination. It's a natural thought that people have. They're the ones. If you guys are a bunch of dopes that are just listening to my orders and I tell you how to live your life and what to do, I'm naturally going to think I'm better than you. Well, that's, I mean, people have lived under those systems [1:03:05] since there have been systems, but what makes it particularly galling and hard to live with is when you call that system a democracy. That's too dishonest for me. It's, I would much rather live in a monarchy where everyone thinks the king has been assigned by God to rule over us and his whims are law. That makes sense. I don't like it, but at least it has internal coherence. When they stand up and pass a $60 billion funding bill for Ukraine, when 70% of the population doesn't want it, when they're ignoring the actual problems in our country like the economy and the border, and they're hauling in Congress over the weekend to pass something that people don't want. Well ignoring the things that people do want and if they do the same kind of thing again and again for like 50 years and they call it a democracy that will drive you insane. Because it's just too dishonest. Why not just say we don't give a shit what you want. [1:04:01] We are getting something out of this Ukraine funding, whether it's like the thrill of being masters of the universe or whether it's money from the defense contractors, whatever we're getting out of it is more important to us than your opinion. This is not self-government. You don't run this country. We do shut up in obey. If they at least said that, you'd be like, okay, I get it. Those are the terms. But if I get another fucking lecture from Joe Scarborough about defending democracy, when this is not a democracy, it's not even a close approximation of a democracy, then I'm gonna go crazy, because I just can't deal with the lining. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does make sense. What's interesting is that there are people saying that now, and I think that's a relatively new thing in terms of mainstream media. It's, and I consider what you do on X mainstream media. I mean, this is what we're on right now is essentially mainstream media. It used to be, you could call it, there's corporate controlled media. I agree. And that used to be mainstream media. [1:05:00] Mainstream media used to be CNN. It's not really anymore. Mainstream media is what in terms of the volume consumed, more people are consuming things on Twitter, on X, than there are on anything else. They're consuming information through the internet, through YouTube, for good or for bad, whether it's correct or incorrect, they're consuming information in different forms now than ever before. So more people are saying what you're saying than have ever said it before. And when people lie and when people bullshit and gaslight, it's more offensive now than it's ever been before because there's so much access to truth that it's just you can see it now. If you're paying attention, if you're not a boomer, who only reads the newspaper, you pay attention and you see it and you go, this is horse shit. But it's like, I guess what bothers me is that the lies aren't sophisticated. No. I mean, I look back over my now sort of long life and I'm recognizing all the times that I was lied to, but I didn't know I was being lied to. They kind of pulled it off. There's something incredibly insulting and demeaning [1:06:08] to tell me a lie when I know it's a lie. And you know I know it's a lie. We both know it's a lie, but you're demanding that I pretend to believe it. What you're really saying is, I have no respect for you're like my dog. You're a slave. Like I'm demanding that you participate in my lie. The lack of stealth, I'm not spending it for you all, but that really bothers me a lot. Well there's no real other way to lie. Like some of these lies, like politicians, like did you see that conversation that a O C had with that man they brought in for the the Biden case and they were talking about what crimes and she was she was like grilling this guy what crimes did you see Joe by do he steal anything did he steal bread like I forget what she said but and he was trying to explain what they were, Rico crimes, and she was saying, [1:07:06] Rico is not a crime. It's a category of crime. Like, okay. But tell that to the Genevese family. No, that is so dumb to say that publicly. Like, and say it with confidence and to tell a person. That's the thing, the marriage of an aptitude in a high self esteem is. It's really the marker of our time. It's like, I have nothing against dumb people at all. My dogs are dumb and I love my dogs. No, I'm serious. I don't think God cares about your intelligence, right? Only people care. So it's not a moral category. Stupidity is not a, I mean, someone would down syndrome. I really believe better people than I am. You know more likely to go to heaven. So I'm not attacking her for being dumb, but the idea that a dumb person has no, the White House press secretary is in the same category, who has no idea she's dumb. She really thinks like she won the prize and she's the most impressive, like I'm White House press secretary because I'm the best talker in America. [1:08:01] It's so crazy. And yet the smartest people I know are very often like sort of well, they have humility. Well, also she's following Kaylee McKeniny. Is that how you say your name? I don't really know who that is. She was the last White House press I know. I know. And you don't know what that is. She's the goat. I sort of do. She's the goat. go greatest White House press secretary of all time. She's the best. I had to stop paying close attention by that party. She had all the documents. She would kill them. She, whenever she would get called out, like whenever there would be a question, she'd say, that's interesting. And then she'd open it. Because you said this. Yes, your paper said that and CNN said this and and she would call them out on stuff and she was just really really well prepared I love that very articulate. She was wonderful Good for her. I mean that's what it should be but she was operating under president Trump, you know So obviously she's demonized. It's just I can't believe you don't know who that is no I don't you know know who it is but I [1:09:02] It's just funny the she's the goat No, who it is, but I, um, it's just funny. The, she's the goat. Well, that's, I had stopped watching all briefings by then. I used to go, but there's so many films as they're so good. I used, I mean, I literally would go there, be in the briefing room, the former Kennedy swimming pool and, and the first thing you know, I mean, I was never a White House reporter, but I would, was a reporter. So I would go to them occasionally. And the first thing you notice is how impressed all the correspondence are to work there. I work at the White House. I work at the White House, got my pet, my heart passed. And then the distance between that, that little credential they were so proud of and the reality of their lives was insane. Like they're in this tiny little room. They're being treated with total contempt by the White House staff who thinks they're just fucking animals. You know, it's like, shut up. They're eating out of vending machines. And this was a different time, right? So like when I was working as a journalist in Washington, we were not to lunch every day. And like a good restaurant and charge it to the company. And like with your sources, we had lunch every single day, like civilized people. I don't even think that exists in the world anymore where you had time for a lunch, where you weren't just so under the gun [1:10:06] from your corporate masters, you had to like get back to work. We ate lunch and I remember thinking these people don't eat lunch. They eat like a still mounds bar out of a vending machine like they bring quarters to work so they can eat. I remember thinking, your life like is're you're not even human You're just like a little puppet or something and but you're so impressed and like all your neighbors know you know He he works at the White House. He's in the White House press corps and The job like wasn't even really a job you would just like sit there and ask your question and your little assigned seat like you're in a high school gym It was just awful and I just had no respect for people who did that for a living at all. Did you ever leave fear and loathing on the campaign trail? Come on. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing. That guy gave sort of the bet. That's, I think probably the best window [1:11:00] into an outsider in the political process, at least in terms of the campaign trail. It's the best window to the press, the best window to the relationships that they had with the politicians, at least in the 1970s. It's an amazing book. I was talking to a campaign reporter, I never do that anymore, but I was this week actually. And he was telling me it's totally different. Like when I did it, you were all on a, I mean, it was bad actually, it was because it just cultivated groupthink, which was then leveraged by the candidate for better coverage. Like the whole thing was kind of an op actually, but it was at least fun. Like you were on a charter plane and like you're flying with everybody and you'd hit three or four cities a day and like there are cocktails on the plane and you know, naughty behavior and like, you know, they fed you and they kind of dealt everything for you, it was fun, it was like a road trip, right? And now it's just like, Graham, they're all driving alone and they're little rental cars to some obscure town and Iowa is there with no access whatsoever to the candidate [1:12:01] right up there, little reports and then they get back to their hotel, and they're like writing up more for the website, and it's just such a bad job actually, covering politics that only the people who couldn't make it in any other business are doing it. It's like a reverse meritocracy. It's only the most kind of pathetic power worshippers would ever do a job like that. Well, critics. Yes, that's exactly the way. Most critics want to be writers. They're like the worst people, just as people. Like, well, you've actually been in show business so you've got a better experience with them or you have a lot of experience with them, but I've known a lot of them who worked for magazines or newspapers that I worked for. Yeah, I do too. And they're the kind of people who have a lot of cats and all the cats hate them. You know what I mean? They're just like the lowest. They all have some sort of weird like wandering eye and they're fat and they're like super into porn. And totally I explain this from everybody. [1:13:08] I actually worked for one of them for a while who was a critic for the New York post. A guy called John Putt-Harts and he was one of the weirdest most unhappy people I've ever met in my life and he would come into my office occasionally and he was rubbed his, he had a really hairy back and he would rub it against the doorframe. Like say these kind of obscure, he was stupid but he didn't know that he was actually kind of dumb but he didn't know it and he would kind of philosophize. I was like 10 years younger and I was his captive so he would just like a lecture me as he was rubbing against the door frame and one time he went out to lunch and we all had drinks of course it's like mid-90s he didn't really drink but he ordered this drink with like an umbrella and it had a watermelon piece of watermelon on the rim of the glass and he took the watermelon and ate [1:14:01] it and then he ate the rind I'll never forget that watching him eat the rind. And thinking, of course this guy's a critic. Yeah, this is true love. He was editing this magazine, but like his real interest was in writing about movies. And it was, it was sad people. Did you ever read, you know, Cisco and Ebert, did you ever read when Cisco Roger Ebert rather wrote a wrote a script play no it's very bizarre it's it's really sexual very strange it's supposed to be terrible of course it's not but it's terrible but i remember going oh okay you know they're not they're not creative they're creative adjacent well they don't have anything to contribute that's what i said they don't have free power right, they're not they're not creative. They're creative adjacent. Well, they don't have anything to contribute That's what I said. They don't have free power right so they're probably they probably they probably could figure it out If they had a different mindset I think creativity isn't everybody. It's just a matter of how you are 100% it's in everybody. It just requires honesty Yeah, I don't know pediment to creativity is lying, and I used to say that about joke thieves. [1:15:06] That one of the real problems with joke thieves is when they get caught and then they have to write their own material. And the problem is they don't understand the language. They just know how to say the sounds. Like if you told me what to say in French, I can't speak French, but if you told me what to say and I practice it and I said it right, you think, wow, that guy fucking speaks French. Yes. So that's what comedy's like. So if you got a guy who knows how to repeat other people's jokes, but he doesn't know how to create them. See, comedy's one of the rare things where someone, when you get a guy like Shane Gillis, that guy writes his own stuff, he edits it, he thinks it out in his head, he performs it, he produces it, he changes the order of things. I love that. It's a complete, everybody does it pretty much the same way. There's a few guys that hire writers, and that's honorable. There's nothing wrong with hiring a writer. And it's also it gives jobs to other comics [1:16:00] because some comics are just really good writers and they're not so good at performing. And so people will work on stuff, they'll collaborate on stuff. Like Chris Rock would do this thing where he would hire comics and they didn't write the jokes for him, but they would be like guys he would bounce stuff off. So he would have his ideas, he would go on stage and then after his set they would all meet and they would talk about the set. And you know, guys would have taglines. Like you could say this, oh great, and they'd write that down, they're adding. So it's a collaboration. So you have the master, you have Chris Rock, who is so open-minded and intelligent and humble that he brings in other masters and says, tell me what I'm doing wrong. Tell me what I could change. Tell me what I could make better. And they work together. And then there's people that have people that are essentially ghost writers. They hire comics to write jokes where they pretend they're theirs. And they don't really write them at all. So that's another level, which is tall also. Does anyone who does that get successful? I don't know. I don't know. Not top shelf. They get close. They do there's there's people that have people right for them and they do well [1:17:06] But they're not the guy that everybody goes to this they're not David Tal They're not the guy that everybody goes to see the not the like David Tal's the guy that comics go to see when he's in town Yes, like you just he's a master. He's you watch me's Yoda you like Jesus Christ like how is he so good? Well, he's so good because he writes every day, because he's sitting with fucking a pack of cigarettes in a cup of coffee every morning, writing things in a notebook, and he's practicing every day. He goes on stage constantly, and it's just, it's that Japanese term, kaisen, where you take this one thing, and just refine it, to the ultimate mastery. That's what he's doing. So these guys who pretend to be that and steal jokes and then they get caught, then their material drops off a cliff. It's so obvious. Because- Yeah, also because the very thing that allows you to steal someone's jokes, that's an ego thing. That's a like, I want the laughs. [1:18:02] I want to be the man or the woman. I want to be the fucking one up there showing everybody, oh, look how amazing this person is. Look how amazing. That's the opposite mindset that's required for creativity. So creativity is not about you. Creativity is about the ideas. Creativity is about things, creativity is about, how does this concept work with these other concepts? How do I, how do I get it in the most digestible form? If I was an audience member, will we be like to feel this? What's the best way to introduce it? What's the way to make it so that people don't think that I'm being mean? That I have a point or that I thought this through? This is not just a flippant thing. You're allowing someone when someone's on stage, you're allowing that person almost to think for you. Like you're like, take me on a ride. I'll give you my mind. I'm not gonna be thinking what I would do. I'm just gonna let you think for me. If that person's not doing a good job at that, [1:19:01] if it's clunky, if it's shitty, of the transition suck, of the way, then it just interrupts this hypnotism that you've put on me, this hypnosis. It's now I'm not letting you think of it. But it's also inherently fraudulent. Yeah, right? I mean, I'm giving control of my mind over to someone who is himself under the control of somebody else. You don't even mean if you're stealing? No, if I'm in the audience. Right. And I would say this also goes for ideas, for commentary. You know, there's not funny, but that's real. Right. And you see it a lot. I've seen it a lot. Yeah, you see bullshit a lot. Well, the number of people who are totally not controlled, who are really saying what they actually believe with no weird agenda that they're not telling you about is pretty small. Yeah. And I just have noticed that a lot recently, particularly on the question of wokeness and free speech, there are a lot of people who are like on your side because they're for free speech, who are not actually for free speech at all, who are pushing a very specific [1:20:06] foreign policy agenda, for example, and using another issue to lower your defenses and let themselves into your brain. And I think that's really sinister, really, really, really sinister. And it's becoming more obvious now, like if you're for free speech, then you're just for free speech because you support the principle. It doesn't the content of the speech is not that interesting to you The fact that a sovereign human being has the right to express himself because he's not a slave He's a citizen and a human being like that's what matters Yeah, and if all of a sudden you like become famous like I'm for free speech and then you support like I'm for free speech. And then you support silencing people who articulate opinions you disagree with, like you're a fraud. You're kind of a sinister fraud. Yeah. Yeah. And that, because that's the business, I'm in, I've really noticed that. Have you noticed this? Yes. And that's also the same kind of thing when you hear them talk. [1:21:01] If you hear someone talk that's saying something that's kind of horseshit It resonates with you that that's what you've seen you have a moment with Barry Weiss on your show that went everywhere I saw a clip of it. I never saw the show itself, but she was going on about She was posing as one thing and then you press tree like well hold on a second What do you mean by that you just attack somebody and she had no idea what she was talking about. And it became really clear to me watching, I don't know, I completely changed my view of Barry Weiss forever. I was like, oh, she's a fraud actually. This person's not honest at all. Like she has a very specific agenda that's all she cares about. The rest of this stuff is just a kind of slate of hand maneuver. You're talking about the thing with Tulsi Gabbard? That's correct. Yeah, she called her a toady and she didn't know what that meant. Well, she had no idea. Like, Tulsi Gabbard had straight outside the lines on some Syria or something. And Barry Weiss was going through the files in her head like, what does she have to believe? And she was aware that Tulsi Gavrett had somehow violated that in a way [1:22:06] that no one's willing to say, like, in detail to her fully articulate, what did Tulsi Gavrett do wrong? No one will tell you. She's just bad. And then what that revealed about Barry Weiss is she's completely dishonest. Like she's a liar, actually. You can't, if, by the way, if you attack somebody, particularly personally, and can't explain why you're attacking the person, like that's not acceptable. You're a dishonest person if you can't explain why. I think it's a common thing that people do in private, and they get accustomed to speed. Like we're talking, like we're talking in private. We're just two people talking. So people get accustomed to saying things without being able to back them up. You know, like, oh, he's a vaccine denier. Well, I've done a ton of that in my life. Yes, as well. Because I'm an asshole. So it's like, I just don't like that person, okay. I have as well, but what I'm saying is, I don't know how much time Barry Weiss had spent doing podcasts before that. Well, she spent, look, I I'm just saying like, it's important to be honest about what you're agenda is. And she is honest. [1:23:06] I think she is honest and I really like her. Yeah, I like talking to her. She's very intelligent personally. Not against her personally. I think that was a mistake. And I think you're allowed to do that and hopefully learn from that and don't do that anymore. Don't say a thing that you've, and I've done that, I've definitely done that, I've said a thing, and I wasn't really exactly sure what I was talking about. Oh my gosh, I do that every day, and I may have just done it with Barry Weiss, so let me be a lot more specific about what I mean. If your agenda is Neocon politics, which is her agenda, just say so. Don't pretend to be a defender of free speech as a principal, which is what she does. How is she a defender of Neocon politics. Very wise. Yeah, like what specifically? Well, anyone, including me and Tulsi Gabbard, who thinks that America shouldn't be funding worse that don't help America, she will attack as a traitor to America or whatever it takes. And so, no, no, no, that's her main interest, which is fine. [1:24:01] And by the way, I actually have friends who I disagree with really strongly on this question who believe in Neocompolitics. Doesn't mean they're terrible people or I hate them or I'm not friends. I'm still friends with them. But they're very direct about it. This is what I care about. Okay. Fine. I really care about bird hunting and fly fishing and or whatever. I can do that. That's totally cool. But be honest about it. So if your job is to defend the right of free people to say what they really believe, then go ahead and defend it. And if somebody is not allowed to speak or fired from his job for having an opinion that you disagree with, defend him anyway. I just interviewed a guy who is a black nationalist socialist. Okay, so I'm obviously not much of a black nationalist. I don't know if you're aware of that, but I'm not. And I'm not a socialist either. But this guy is facing prison time under the Biden DOJ because he said things they don't like about foreign policy. And I just interviewed the guy for an hour [1:25:00] and it was like, I'm, because on principle, you should be able to say what you think. What is his channel? He was actually a boy. Turns out I like loved him. And I'm embarrassed. I can't he's he's a member of a pretty small black nationalist socialist group. It's like the revolutionary black nationalist or something like that. They're out of out of southwest Florida. nationalists or something like that. They're out of South West Florida. And he's literally facing prison for repeating Russian disinformation. He's not even accused of doing anything. He's accused of saying things the Biden DOJ doesn't like. Well, in a... What were these things that he said? Repeating Russian propaganda about the invasion of Ukraine. And his point was, well, there's a backstory here, which is that NATO has been moving eastward since 1991, and that's a massive threat to Russia, missiles on their border from a hostile powers of threat, and the Biden administration accelerated that, and in response, Putin invaded Eastern Ukraine. [1:26:01] Now, you can disagree with that, but that's hardly a crackpot view, by the way, I think that's actually true, but even if you don disagree with that but that's hardly a crackpot view By the way, I think that's actually true But even if you don't agree that it's true that's not you don't have to be a paid propaganda from the Kremlin to say that right I have said it not a paid propaganda. That's him right there for Americans from a lot of government Organization work with Russian intelligence to spread propaganda Yes to spread propaganda now propaganda first of all you know there's a lot of propaganda scroll up a little on that jaymy so i can read what this is saying uh... okay right that guy that guy right there okay subscribe to the people's democratic who who movement in st peter's bird so he contacted he spoke with someone in russia they spoke with people in russia and i don't know he is being um... he's charged with felonies the fb i rated his house the first thing they did was cover up the security cameras and they went in there and arrested they are rated by the fb [1:27:02] okay rushes for an intelligence service allegedly weaponized our first amendment rights, freedoms, rationalized, so to divide Americans, interfered elections in the US, has assisted attorney general Matthew Olson. Now, first of all, weaponized our first amendment rights? No. Your first amendment rights are never a crime. Their God-given government did not bestow them. You were born with them as a free person, period. And the first woman simply says, you can't interfere with their exercise. That's it. And in this they are. And I looked at, I read this and I thought, and I reached out to this guy by the way. Matthew Olson? No, I wish. Matthew Olson would never do my show. I mean the guy who salary I pay is a US citizen You would never speak to me. Well listen look at that that quote rush is foreign intelligence services Allegedly weaponized our first amendment rights freedom's Russia denies its own citizens to divide Americans in interfere and elections in the United States that you got it like [1:28:01] Why are you saying that let's say what happened. Well, but nothing happens. So that's the thing. So I'm reading this. Someone sent it to me and I'm like, okay, clearly there's a crime here, like they were found with, I don't know, mortar shells or they were, I mean, usually the government makes up, they put Kitty Pony on your computer at least to discredit you. There's no underlying crime other than they said something that the foreign policy establishment of the United States disagrees with. Okay, that's not a crime by definition. And this guy is facing life in prison and it looks to me because Barry Weiss has not defended him. I think this guy is likely to spend the rest of his life in prison. And I'm like, this is crazy. The rest of his life in prison. Yes. Okay, hold it. This is a thing. I think he's 83. How do you say his name? You should tell us. You should tell us. And three other US citizens, Penny Joanne, Hasse, Jesse Neville, and Augustus C. Romaine, Jr. are charged with conspiracy to defraud US Hasse. [1:29:00] Oh, okay. The fraud in the United States. H uh... has yeshatella and novell are also charged impersonating agents of a foreign government okay they say to defraud the united states so defraud suggests theft of something of value right right by defraud u.s. steal your money there's no allegation of that at all and i actually read the charges there's no the only allegation of that at all. And I actually read the charges. There's no, the only allegation is the said things that the US government, the Biden administration doesn't like. That's it. And because they're unpopular and they have views that are considered, quote, shri- print fringe, you know, like crazy black nationalists. Nobody wants to defend them. And my only point is not that I'm like such a principled person this also this is very obvious to me you can't allow that you absolutely cannot allow that if you believe in the first amendment in the freedom of free people to say what they think so the with this app this implication is they're saying that they they were recruited uh... by the fs b [1:30:02] so it says uh... prosecutor said in of uh... operated in an entity called the anti globalization movement of russia that was used to carry out its u.s. influence efforts overseen by the russian intelligence service notice fs b recruited u.s. based organizations to help sway elections make it appear there was a strong support in the u.s. for russia's invasion of ukraine and backed efforts such as the 2015 United Nations petition to decry the genocide of African people in the US according to the indictment. Backed efforts. What is that mean? Look at that. It's meant to that. It's a back efforts such as the 2015 United Nations petition to decry the genocide of African people. But just look at that statement. Backed efforts such as a thing to decry genocide, the United Nations petition of 2015, [1:31:00] to decry the genocide of African people in the US according to the indictment. Okay, so the real misinformation and propaganda is in the charging documents, actually. The real liars here are the Biden DOJ officials who did this and they're dangerous, they're criminals, in my opinion. But if you read it carefully, you will see that the only crime is having opinions that the people in charge didn't like. Were they in contact with people from Russia? Yeah, I think they went over to Russia for some conference. So they went over to Russia. But the way this typically works is they say, well, you went to a country against which we've imposed sanctions. And you violated the sanctions regime in some way. Like that's how they get you. They're not even alleging that they're not even alleging that they're just saying you said things that we don't like that By the way of foreign government we don't like agrees with But that's not learn those when they went over to Russia. It's all on the internet there But if they learned them I mean, I guess it doesn't matter where they learned them [1:32:03] I would because I've talked to the guy and I've seen what they wrote, the opinions that they expressed. I don't, you know, the genocide of African peoples in America. I don't even know what that means. I guess I don't agree with that. But their views on Russia I generally agree with, because I think they're true. And so does Jeff Sachs and a lot of other non-crazy, non-black nationalists would probably agree with the basic framework of their position. But whether we agree or not is not relevant. Right. All that matters is in a free country, which this was when I grew up, you have the right to any opinion you want. You do not have the right to hurt people, you don't have the right to steal from them, you don't have the right to defraud people, but you certainly foremost have the right to any opinion you want no matter what the people in charge think of it. In fact, you have that right as a bulwark against tyranny by the people in charge. Like that's the only thing that keeps this country free is my right to have any opinion [1:33:02] I want. And this guy is going to jail for his opinions. And you know, it's so crazy that I kept thinking like, is there something that I'm missing? Like it does seem a little fringe. This group I'd never heard of them. I'm not saying them money, okay? They must have done something. Nope, nothing. And you should see the video of the FBI, right? It's unbelievable. They sent, they sent like, it's on the internet, it's on X. I have the video on there. They sent like 40 armed agents with automatic weapons to this guy's office and his house. Like no exaggeration. It was a full blown like we're a resting El Chapo type thing. For this guy's like an 83 year old army veteran, it's outrageous. And I really find it baffling that nobody who's like against woke culture, whatever will touch it. And the reason they won't touch it is because their foreign policy views in general are more important to them than their views on speech [1:34:01] and the First Amendment, no views on America. Well, if you step out a line, right? So the ideology is that we must support Ukraine. Right. So this is, Russia has a point. This is what they're saying. So Russia was very upset about the movement of the weapons closer to their borders, the joining NATO, all the stuff that was the hard red lines that Putin had already set, like if Russia would definitely do something if Ukraine joined NATO. We all knew that. So if you deviate from that, you're going to be in trouble, so better just ignore it. Because you can't, you clearly, if you look at who these people are, I mean, these are people that would be supported by the left. Wholeheartedly. Well, they are. I mean, it's like the revolutionary socialism. Yeah, right. They're not at CPAC, but they're left at. Yes, to ignore it, because then. 100%. It conflicts with the sub-regor left or just like now they're actually ridiculous. They don't mean anything. [1:35:06] In fact, we've moved past the point where they don't mean anything. They do mean something. They are propaganda instruments designed to cloak the truth from the rest of us. In fact, there's agreement, not disagreement at the center of power. They all agree in the things that matter. And those are the economy and foreign policy because that's where the money is. There's no effort to say, rein in the credit card companies, which if you really cared about the country, it's a, but people really suffering. They don't have enough money to live. Kids can't, not only not buy houses, they can't afford rent. And why is that? And one of the main reasons is because they're paying like close to 20% interest on their credit cards. And okay, we just imagine that in a free market, that's a good thing. Tell me why that's a good thing. Who benefits from that? Why are we for that again? I'm not for that. I think the credit card companies are villains. And they send credit cards to kids at school and get them hooked on this. [1:36:02] I think it's totally wrong. And if you said that in the US Congress people look at you, like you had three heads, like what? They just don't care because they all agree that our current economic system and our current foreign policy assumptions are good. So that's not a two party system, that's a one party system, and it doesn't serve the industry of the country. And my position is super simple. The only country I have an emotional attachment to is the United States. That's it. I like lots of countries. I like almost all countries. Actually, I've been to a lot of them. I like them all. But the only one I feel emotional about is the United States because I live here. I was born here. My kids are here. It's my country. And most of the people in our foreign policy conversation do not feel that way. So that distorts it really dramatically. And there are also a lot of them are violence worshipers, like they get off on war, they get off on hurting people, and on the power that that imbues them with. And I think, you know, the Liz Cheney model. You know what I mean? [1:37:01] Like someone like Liz Cheney who's got like a really sad and barren personal life, a lot of them are this way, weird personal life, failed personal life. Like they don't have people who love them, they don't have kids who respect them. And so Adam Kinzinger, whatever, they're all kind of the same. The more broken they are inside, the more focused they are on like war and foreign policy because it gives them a feeling of power and strength and success. Like, I can't get my wife to respect me. I can't get my kids to listen to me. I can't pass any meaningful domestic agenda, but what I can do is bomb the living shit out of a foreign country. And so there is this. It's not true for all of them, but for a lot of them, there is this syndrome that drives their behavior. But whatever the reason, it's totally disconnected from what's good for the country. And if you run America, you have one job, one job, and that's improved America, period. They don't see it that way. So I don't think the system can continue [1:38:01] because it's too distorted. It's not serving its original purpose at all. So what was it that these guys said that made this raid possible? They said Russia, and I don't want to speak for them. I interview anyone who will see it. And I just want to say again, one of the cool things about this moment that I did not anticipate there was always sad stuff happening. I know that you probably experienced it all the time. It's like finding not only common ground with people you thought you had nothing in common with at all, but also liking them. You know, like I actually liked the guy. I'm sure we disagree on a million things, probably mad at white people. I am a white person, whatever. But like in my conversation, I was like, I like this guy. You know, he's honest and he's sincere, he's principled. He was a veteran, you know, but whatever. No, I really think what they said was what I have said and a lot of people have said, which is there was a reason for this invasion. I personally think the invasion was a bad idea, [1:39:00] it didn't help anybody. I'm against war. I'm sad. The war's ongoing. But they were pushed to this by a more powerful country, which would be the United States of America, with the threat of including Ukraine in NATO. It's really simple. And right before the invasion, days before the invasion, they send poor Kamala Harris, who has no idea what day it is, to the Munich Security Conference, an area she knows nothing about, no experience at all. And they send her there for one purpose, which is to announce at a press briefing with all the cameras rolling. Tuzlensky, right there she says, we want you to join NATO. What? No other NATO members were clamoring for Ukraine. It didn't even qualify for NATO membership. Why would you say that? When Putin's got troops maskeded on the Ukrainian border, you send your vice president to the Munich Security Conference with the world watching and say this that no one even really wants. Why would you do that? To provoke war? Obviously, what's the other reason? And it was scripted. Like, Kamala Harris is not free-balling stuff. [1:40:00] Like, she's saying what she's told to say obviously it's not her area she doesn't know anything about this stuff she was told to say that but why to provoke a war obviously so that was my read I said that on Fox News not a lot of people liked it but it just seemed obvious to me I'm not making excuses for Putin please I want to protect the United States and I think this war really hurts the United States like my motives are always right out there anyway i think they said a species of that something like that and and last thing i'll say is that why was the reaction so strong because it was true they don't care if you lie known about our cares if you lie but a lot of people are really good a lot of people are saying those things and they's like some black nationalist guy in St. Petersburg. Like, who cares? We can do. Who's going to defend him? Nobody. He's some wacko. He's some like 80 year old guy who's like been in the like fringe left movement for the past 50 years. You know, like new Huey Newton and Stokely Carmichael. He's like a relic of the past and like he doesn't have a constitiency doesn't care the modern democratic party [1:41:07] hates him he hates them and the republican party is like black nationalism no thanks so he has no constitiency they're never gonna like you could say that and what are they gonna do to you you know nothing because they're they can't but this guy yeah crush them kill him and that's nothing because they're, they can't. But this guy, yeah, crush him, kill him. And that's exactly what they're doing. And I really think not to be like a 70s liberal about it. If you let the week get crushed, it's bad. It's super bad. You need to protect the week and this guy's weak. And so you think they're making an example out of him with this and they can. They have all this power. I just don't understand why they would move So many people why whether it gets so many agents why they would do this so publicly for one guy's opinion or one group of people's opinion Well, I don't know. I mean why do you especially why did medieval kings hang the heads of people they executed from the gates? [1:42:02] Right, but it feels like this should be more to it like what what did they say so the the problem you're telling me i know the problem is that i mean i'm just straw man i'm still manning this rather so the problem is that they went over to russia and they talked with people in russia and then they're saying these things that the problem charge with that they're not charged with going to the but do you think that's the motivation behind because they they went over there it's a different article uh... has a quote from him okay yet they are not you at least when i interviewed him they had not been charged with taking money from russia so it says they've been accused of us uh... they've accused us of taking money from russia yes you tell us said yesterday news conference of july twenty nine we never taken any money from russian government but i'm not saying that because I'm morally opposed to taking money from the Russians or anyone else who wants to support the struggles for black people don't tell us what we can't don't tell us that we can't have friends that you don't like he accused the uf government u.s government of seeking to use the a p s p as a pawn in its proxy war with Russia, the unsustainitated allegation [1:43:08] that opponents of the war are co-conspirators with a foreign power are intended to bolster the phantom of a Russian boogie man in the public consciousness, the escalating military aggression by the U.S. against Russia and China is already being accompanied by increasing repression and an attempt to criminalize left-wing opposition to the unpopular war Well exactly so they're accusing him of taking money from Russia. They're not they're not charging him so here's the distinction which is Like really really important so there are two levels on which The Department of Justice in all administrations acts, there's the level of propaganda, like what do we want people to think, and there's the level of law? What are we charging someone with? And you have to ignore the first and pay very close attention to the second. So we have a legal system, we have laws, and you can't actually go to jail unless you violate one under the terms of [1:44:02] our system. And so ignore what they're saying about you. Joe Rogan sucks, he's a bad man. But in the end, I'm busting you for double parking. And so really you're not a bad man, you're a double parker under the law. And so if you look at the charges against these guys, they're not charged with violating sanctions regulations. They are charged with totally amorphous quote crimes like defrauding the US government, not for money, but for like defrauding it like I guess counter-signalling it sending a message publicly that they don't like. I mean, there's no crime. Look it up except speaking and I think that's a precedent that we don't want to live with. No, no doubt. All right. Yeah, let's take a leak. We'll be right back. We're gonna pee. Talk around gonna pee together. Yeah. Well, that's the confronting of reality. You're forced to examine your beliefs [1:45:06] and why you came to those beliefs in the first place. That is the beauty of this moment though. It is. People are living intentionally much more. And it's also just much more interesting. It's not just, it's less shallow than it was for sure. I think so. I think it's more nuanced. People have more nuanced, at least the people that are paying attention have more nuanced perspective. But then you have the people that are in the echo chambers that are just digging their heels in even more. And you could spot them easily, because they... Well, they're missing out because there's nothing more liberating than admitting you were wrong. I mean, that is like the moment of liberation. Right. And that's the basis of, religion is the basis of AA. It's the basis of anything that improves you as a person is admitting, honestly admitting to other people, not just to yourself that like, wow, I got that wrong. Yeah. And then you're important. Because then you don't have to hide it anymore. Right. Very important. And it's a beautiful thing. And that is like changing your mind, I always notice this covering politics that, you know, it can't be like, I've got him on tape saying 10 years ago something different. [1:46:08] And no one ever asked my opinion, but I always wanted to say, why don't you just, why do you say you're absolutely right? And the country's a lot different from what it was 10 years ago. And so my opinions changed too. Like, why wouldn't they? Because I'm a freaking robot or a liar. Also, I used to think this because of that, and now I realize I was wrong. Exactly. Yeah, what's wrong? How great is that? I mean, it's part of being a human. It's not a being a flip flopper. It's the best part of being a human. Well, this is an interesting time for that, because you see people that won't do that. And you could recognize them easily, because they're the first people to throw is to describe you, they'll describe you in an insulting way, and then they'll say what they disagree with you about. They'll say something, they try to define you, they'll do far right, white supremacist, racist, so such as. Oh, been there. They throw it all at you, and then they say what you said. It's so funny, I got called racist and white supremacist [1:47:02] so many times, but when I first was called that, I mean, it really stung a lot because just where I grew up and how I grew up and those like the worst things you could ever call somebody. So I actually paused for a moment and thought, am I? Which I think it's fair to ask yourself, am I? A white, whatever that I never figured out what that was. Am I a racist? Not really. And I thought, really the people I dislike most are almost all white liberals, actually. So I- Your racist gets white people. No, I'm like, no, I am white. My kids are white. I'm not against white people. I like white people. But no, it's not that. It's that, so a reporter once called me about this, you've been called a racist thing. No, actually, really, just like you, if I were sort of narrowed down my bigotry, it's like people like you, I just think you're disgusting. I really mean it too. Raise your, raise your, okay. All right. Well, I think a lot of the things that you overuse eventually people realize like, oh, you're [1:48:09] yelling wolf again. Yeah. Well, of course. And when people get hit with it and don't disappear, then it becomes obvious that it's lacks power. But it's also you're trying to like use these words to define someone, especially someone like you that has so many hours and hours of talking about things, like to try to this reductionist perspective of someone to reduce them to this ultimately very negative thing and not say that they're a human being. And also, the fact that it's done by the people that want to think of themselves as compassionate and kind, which is the most bizarre. The left is so aggressively in compassionate. Like, they're so aggressively unkind with... Letting people die of drug odies on the sidewalk, that's compassion. That whole thing is fucking crazy. Well, it's cruelty, actually. It is. [1:49:00] And it's also when you fight, do you know Koleon Duarras? I know him. Yeah, great guy. He opened my eyes to the homelessness thing. Well, you had him on the podcast, and he was explaining how he was in San Francisco, and he was like, what is this? Is like, they don't have any money for this? Is that what it is? Like, no, there's a whole business behind it. And these people that are running this homeless initiative or whatever the fuck they call it. They're making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Some of them are quarter million dollars a month. Imagine making money off the homeless. And not doing a goddamn thing. But what's so funny is I do think the root of their power and the one thing they're good at is just charging the moral high ground and taking it in the first moments of the battle. Yeah. They just run up to the moral high ground and we're like we've got this. This is ours and they'll protect that at all cost And it's like that's kind of all they have Is this self-righteousness and if you can puncture that it's like you're getting rich from the homeless actually Yeah, and is there anything more disgusting than that? It's some junkie who's dying in misery [1:50:01] Outside the convention center in San Francisco and you're making money on that. They're essentially using those people as a battery to expand the power of government. Yeah, and their own personal advantage. Yeah, they're expanding government. They're making more government employees. Now, there's tons of people that are working on the homelessness problem, air quotes. And you know, they probably all have blue hair and they talk nonsense. And nothing's getting done. And no one's being punished for it. But when they did that study, when they said that they had no data, like how are you? What? You can't say whether or not it's doing anything. How'd you spend $24 billion? But why are they not treated as the most reprehensible people in our society? I think there's too many things to think about. I think most people, unlike you and I, aren't even paying attention to it. They're paying attention to the fact that the tents are there. They're paying attention to if you go to Los Angeles, it's a fucking zombie apocalypse. But what they're not paying attention to is, what is going on? [1:51:01] How many people are making money? I didn't even know until Koleon explained it to us. I had no idea. I thought it was just, they don't have any money. They don't put any money in it and they let these people sleep there. Oh no. No, there's actual money. There are all these parasites. Yeah, parasites, government parasites. Of course. Those are real. And this whole idea of, I've created so many jobs Are they government jobs that are just bullshit? Because there's a lot of those. What's crazy to me just having spent most of my life in Washington is how close this is to the lawmakers physically. So the US Capitol sits across from something called Union Station, which is a really beautiful train station, right on Capitol Hill. And so to get into the Capitol, when there's a massive homeless city there, people dying of drug odies right there. And so to get to work every day, lawmakers have to like step over the bodies of fellow Americans dying, like dying, living outdoors, shitting in the bushes, addicted to drugs, which is hell, okay? [1:52:01] And they have to ignore that on their way to creating utopia in some foreign country. And you're like, does it ever occur to you that that's disgusting that your primary duty is to the drug addict, your fellow American, you're doing nothing. And you're telling me how we're gonna make Easter in Europe into this brave new world. I don't know, I just can't get past that. I think I'm not super sensitive or aware or anything. I'm not super anything really. I'm pretty ordinary, but I think I would notice. I was like, walking into a vote on Ukraine, I'd be like, shit, they're like five junkies on the street. Like maybe we should do something for them? Yeah. Yeah, it's very bizarre. It's bizarre that they can rationalize it or at least that they don't get called out by all their people and This idea that it's compassionate You have compassion to leave these people and to give them aid and help them and give them clean needles But then you've got to think like maybe there's something bigger going on actually [1:53:01] Because there's no yes, there's an entire Because there's no, yes, there's an entire sector of the economy now that feeds off of human misery, the drug treatment centers that don't work, the homeless advocates who create more homeless, the migrant workers, American-born aid agencies, workers who increase illegal immigration and gang activity. You know, all this, you know, people are making money off this. The arms manufacturers that help kill people in foreign countries, et cetera, et cetera. There's a vague in all of that. It's a scam. It's a grift, et cetera, et cetera. But like there's something more. Like there are a lot of people who seem to be just like for evil for its own sake. And you're like maybe all the crazy talk about a spiritual war of good and evil. Maybe there's something to that. Maybe that's not an illusion. Maybe that's like everyone else has always thought that. Maybe there are certainly forces that have evil consequences that exist. [1:54:01] But they act on people from the outside. And you feel it also on the other side, I mean, people are better than they naturally are sometimes. Like you feel compassion for people or true empathy for someone or you really want to help someone. There's no advantage to you at all. Like why are you doing that? It's almost like you're being acted on by good. And all of us have known those moments where we just are cruel for the sake of it, hurt someone for the sake of it. What's that? There's no advantage to us. That's evil acting on us. And I think we're seeing at its scale, and like, I grew up in the most secular world you could ever grow up in. Southern California in the 70s and 80s, and in a very secular family, and I've never really paid much attention to that. And all of a sudden, not everyone, a lot of people I know who had similar childhoods to mind similar life experiences are like, maybe there is like a supernatural realm. Maybe there's more than just like what we can see and feel. Maybe life is more than just ordering shit on Amazon. Maybe there's like a purpose. Maybe there is this battle between good and evil [1:55:01] around us that we can't see, but that we do experience a lot. It seems like it's always been a narrative throughout human history. It's always been this recognition, Carl's over there snoring. I don't have my headphones on, so I can hear them. Oh, you're snoring or snoring? Snoring, Carl snoring. Carl the dog. Oh, Carl the dog. Carl the dog. He snores. I like Carl the dog Carl the dog he snores the dog he's the best but he snores when he sleep because he's a little French bulldog he's a sporty little bulldog he's awesome yeah he's the best dogs don't get cuter they might be as cute but they don't get any cuter than Carl I think that's right yeah I've got some pretty good looking dogs I will see yeah I have a beautiful dog I have a golden retriever but he's not as cute as Carl. Carl's a different than that. Don't tell him that. He knows. He doesn't like Carl. Well, he doesn't hate Carl, but he like ignores him. He thinks of Carl as a thief of attention only. Which he is. Yeah. Fair. So we've always, human beings have always at least believed that there are forces of good and evil and that they [1:56:07] they that's what ecstrosisms are about right the idea that you're possessed yes you're possessed by evil there's always been this thought that there's good and evil but when did you start when did you start considering that and thinking that that's because we weren't you at one point down your weren't you a grateful dead head? Oh, yeah. I was listening to him this morning. He's the travel around with them. Yeah. How old were you when that was going on? I went to my first dead show in December of 1984. So I was 15 at speaking of the San Francisco Civic Center. Yeah, the New Year's shows. So they've always played in Oakland, but one year they played at the in San Francisco. And so we were in Tahoe over Christmas and for some reason my dad was gone. I don't really know where. So my brother and I drove illegally from Tahoe [1:57:03] in the family vehicle to downtown San Francisco. How old was your brother? 13. So you drove? Or you drove? I drove. 15, you drove. Yeah, wow. Tahoe, so it was a couple hours. And I remember being on the freeway like, grrrr. Ha ha ha ha. At 15. Well, we had a pretty different childhood. But anyway, anyway, we did that. Is that you? Yeah, it's me on the left. Get the fuck outta here. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how that picture is hanging in my barn and I've never, I don't release any pictures of myself or family or anything like that. And somebody came to my barn and took a picture of that, it's hanging next to my sink, and put it on the internet. Wow. So that's my brother, Buckley, on the right. That picture was taken, so my dad was a reporter in San Francisco in the 60s, and pretty well known reporter. And that was in the 80s when I was in school, [1:58:03] and we were home for Christmas vacation, and he had covered the grateful debt he knew the grateful debt. My dad did. So they were in his office. They like came through DC and they like called him and they came over to his offer. Jerry came over to his office and my dad's like, I've got Jerry Garcia here. You guys should come down. So my brother and I, we lived in Georgetown and we had a Vespa, remember those? Yeah. When we drove our Vespa, remember those? Yeah. And we drove our Vespa, was freaking cold out. I'll never forget that we drove our Vespa down to sixth and ee or whatever where my dad's office was. And there was Jerry, I'd never met him before. He was missing the middle finger of his right hand, famously, you know, the famously handprint, grateful to handprint in. But when he shook his hand, you could feel his, it collapsed kind of, because he didn't have that amount of money. But anyway, so my brother and I drove to the New Year show, it was actually a couple nights before New Year's, and we didn't have tickets, of course. And we were in the park across from there, and we were, you know, whatever doing the, you know, whatever, the things that people do at Dead Shows, and we're pretty freaking out of it. And this guy comes up out of nowhere and puts a ticket right in face to goes, [1:59:05] here, and hands me a ticket. So my brother was extremely out of it. I mean, he was, you know, I never should have done this, but I was like, all right, man, I'm going in. All right, and I left my little brother in the park during this show, just like very, very impaired, like super, super impaired. I was completely wrong to do something, I know, but I did do it. And then I went in and saw the show, kind of freaked out in the middle of it, hidden the men's room for a while. I'll never forget that standing on the, with the stall smoking cigarettes. Is it acid? Trying to, no, it was a Silasappan mushrooms which by the way I should just say I got sober 22 years ago I'm completely opposed to anything like I don't take advelle like I'm totally opposed to anything But other than nicotine and coffee, but yeah, it was mushrooms. We ate way too many and started to to [2:00:00] To kind of melt down a little bit, but anyway the point is I I can have this show. This is pre-self, this is 1984. And I get out of the show. And they played actually a lot of tunes that they didn't play. They played spoonful, like they didn't play spoonful. A lot of us like a pretty obscure tune. I'd never heard it before actually. And I couldn't find my brother, my little brother. And I'm like in charge and you know my closest friend and lifelong friends talked to him this morning and uh but I couldn't find him and I was like oh man my brother's coming but there he was he appeared like an hour later he had spent the entire show and somebody's van but he seemed undamaged and uh it great. I mean, not everything about it is great. I mean, I do think the drug thing got, you know, definitely hurt people for sure. But from my perspective, I went to a bunch, probably 50 or more shows, and really enjoyed it. And I love the fact that they had two drummers. That was a huge thing for me. I love rhythm. I think it's the basis of [2:01:04] music. It's obviously the basis of music. I mean, the instrument instruments are cool, but they're kind of like interior design. And the architecture is rhythm. And it's the universal sound that every culture appreciates because it reflects something that's preexisting that's in you. Everyone relates to rhythm. And I just absolutely loved the drums. And I loved, they would always play like it was called drums actually but they would play a section of every show was just drums. Bill Crowe's been in Mickey Hart's gone crazy on the drums and they had drum circles and I just liked drums. To this day I listened to drums just just percussion. King Sonny A Day, the great West African drummer, and whatever. So yeah, I like the grateful debt a lot, and still doing I like that kind of music. Jam music? I like jam music, I like acoustic music, I love bluegrass, love bluegrass in Americana, and to see that grow, to see Billy Strings [2:02:00] become like a venue packer, like Billy Strings is like a big act right now. I do feel like creativity art has been completely destroyed and eliminated in the United States. There's like, as we were saying earlier, you can't be creative if you're not honest. It's that simple and we can't be honest, so there's no creativity. And in the visual arts and literature and architecture, it's died. But comedy is still alive, think heaven and music, for some reason has escaped that and is still alive. And the growth, the explosion of acoustic bluegrass, the banjo, like one of the great instruments ever, is just thrilling and like a sign of life. At this late, at this late stage. Well, I think when there's social pressures sign of life, you know, at this late, at this late stage. Well, I think when there's social pressures and when societies in chaos, art does tend to thrive. Some kind of art. Some art, that's right. Comedy certainly does now. Like comedy's never been better. But it came close. It came close. [2:03:00] Oh yeah. Yeah, the walls got breached. Whoa. Yeah. No, but a few years, I don't know when it was, but eight years ago or something, it felt like, oh, wow. You know, people can't tell jokes anymore. We kept doing it. I noticed. Yeah. And yeah, we kept doing it. You kept the little embers alive. Yeah, well, there was flames. It's just, you know, when you get people in a club and you take their phones away and just have them just be actual human beings and not be filming everything and just being completely trapped with this idea of capturing something and then putting it online, then you get to have a human experience. You mean when people like live in the present rather than in the future? Yeah, that's one of the great things about it. Through a data line, going to a good club that uses yonder bags for your phones. It just takes you out of it. At the very least, it's a break. Like this podcast is a break for three hours of phones. There's no, I'm not, no one's checking phones. I love that. [2:04:01] That's very rare with human beings. Like you just sit down and just have conversations for long periods of time without being distracted by something. Not in my house, but yeah. It's a real problem with folks. It's a huge problem. It's a huge problem and the one thing I will say about my very unconventional childhood is there was a huge premium on meals and like eating with people and spending four hours at the table was totally normal in the house that I grew up in. Totally normal. In fact, it was daily. That was our primary form of entertainment and motive communication and thing that we did for fulfillment and fun. I still do that. I still feel that way. We have dinner parties constantly and there are no phones and people talk and entertain each other and it's like it's so much more interest. I'm not on social media but if I were on social media I don't think I would find that on Instagram and I'm not tacking Instagram but I don't think I would find that anything like that. No it's it's it's definitely a lost thing. It's such an easy thing. It's such a fun thing. [2:05:06] It is a fun thing. Yeah. It's a great thing. And I think people enjoy it. And I think that's also led to the rise of podcasts too, because they don't, they don't get that in their real life. So at least they get to be a person who sits in on these conversations. I got to say this is an opian suck up because I don't suck up ever to anyone. But the effect that podcasts have had is just incredible and I never would have predicted that. I would a million freaking years. I would have never thought it. When I first started doing this, it was in my living room with my friend Brian and we did it on a laptop. And we had a webcam and we were like, it was my friend Brian. Yeah, Brian ran me band of Kiltoni. Yes, I did. I just, no, but I just love the phrase with my friend Brian. Like every bad story like, me and my friend Brian, did we were, we were done in Mexico and I just, me and my friend Brian. We just started fucking around online [2:06:00] and then we started eventually bringing guests and then we eventually got a studio and then eventually I got you know a big place in LA like a real warehouse. And then eventually moved to Texas. It all just eventually happened. But it's it was not I mean I was in another part of media for that whole period. And if you had asked me to up the last few years, like the future is clearly shorter, crisper, more produced, right? Right. Right. That's how I would have thought that. Exactly. Everyone did think that, including me and I hated it. You know, I hated it. I like long form, but I was a long form magazine writer for years. So I thought, but I thought that was over. Yeah. Not over. Everybody thought that was over. Yeah. Not over. Everybody thought that. Yeah, even my friends, they were telling me how to edit my show. Like you should edit that. No one's gonna listen to three hours. I'm like, then don't listen. Okay. To everyone. I'm not making any money doing this. It was just for fun. I love that. This is fun for years. For years and years. I did it just with no money. There was no money in it forever. What year, like how many years in did it start to pay for itself? [2:07:07] Five. That's a long time. Yeah, it was a long time. It took a while. I mean, it was making, it was probably like, it was existing. Yeah, but about five years in, then it started making money. And then it was like, oh, it was a business. I remember very clearly, I was on stage once in Chicago. I was doing the Chicago theater. And I had this story that I was going to tell. I'm like, how many people listen to the podcast? And there's 3700 people in the place. And they went nuts. It was like, yeah, I was like, oh. Like I thought there was this thing that I'm doing where a few people are paying attention. I don't even know what the... I didn't even back then. I never even knew what the numbers were. I didn't even care. Well, they may not have been like, could you even collect numbers actually? Yeah, you could get downloads off of whatever the provider was that was with a host. [2:08:04] You could get like download numbers from the host. They would use that to inform ads like, oh, he gets X amount of downloads per month. And then they would, you know, that's when there were very few people advertising on podcasts there. All right. Let's give it a try. But it's one of the great developments between podcasting and Billy Strings like I have. I'm sure it, I have hope that it's not all going in the wrong direction because you can get this view that like everything is falling apart, late Rome, just a matter of time before it really does collapse. And then you see these signs that are not minor, you know, they're significant, that like no people, I mean, I haven't met a person in the past year who said, You know, I thought this but then I was reading the New York Times and I realized I was wrong like not one person Right, but the number of people say I was listening to this podcast. I was listening to Rogan and duh duh duh duh duh It's like you know really noticeable [2:09:01] Yeah, that's why it's interesting It's it's it's interesting because you could put people in front of people, and they might not have me right. It might be wrong. But at least now you're having conversations about something you would never have a conversation about before. And even if this person gets exposed as being incorrect, well now you have a more nuanced understanding of what the subject is about. Why people think incorrect things? And you know this idea of like platforming people is a big one today. Why would you platform that person? First of all, platform is not a verb. And whenever they take a perfectly good noun and turn it into a verb, you know something bad is a foot. Okay. Platform. Oh you mean letting an adult human being talk? Right. I think that's not only allowed, I think that's the law. Not only that, I think it's important for us. It's even important to talk to people that are completely different than you that don't agree with you at all. [2:10:00] Well, it's especially important. Yeah. Otherwise, it's just a masturbatory. It's interesting to learn, getting yourself off., it's especially important. Yeah. Otherwise, it's just masturbatory. It's interesting to alone getting yourself off. But it's also interesting to know why these people think the way they think. And I and also there's so many people that if you talk to them online, you'd have these horrible conversations. But if you sit down with them as an actual human being and treat them with respect and consideration, he talks to them like a human being and you just try to be as friendly and open and possible as possible despite what your differences might be. He realized most people have a lot in common. A lot more way more in common than they don't. But that's the secret that they're trying to hide. So mind control, you know, the end stage of mind control is censorship, right? But it begins long before that and it begins by creating false categories that wall off your willingness that prevent you from wanting to know certain things or talk to certain people and name calling is the most obvious tool. Like he's a crank, he's racist, he's a whatever and fill it in. And then you're like, I can't listen to that [2:11:02] person. And I have to say your willingness to platform or to have a conversation with Alex Jones I think was a revolutionary act actually. Not that everything Alex Jones says is right, it's not, not everything I say is right or anyone says is right. But Alex Jones is an interesting person. And even if he's not interesting, he has been walled off from the rest of us through name calling. And you're willing us to be like, no, actually we're just gonna listen to Alex Jones and you can decide for yourself. Well, Alex has been my friend for more than 20 years. Exactly, but even if he, just the way, yeah, but I'm sure you have other friends you haven't invited. And just like, right. you were not allowed to talk to him and when you hear Alex Jones talk You may not agree with everything he says. I don't know that I do But you definitely understand why they told you couldn't listen to Alex Jones Well, that's one of the reasons why I had him as one of the first guests when I came over to Spotify love that I was like let's go What did they say? Well a lot of people weren't happy we lost sponsors. It was it was an issue [2:12:11] But I think it did the job, regardless of what he said that's incorrect, clearly the Sandy Hook thing was incorrect. Alex, I know Alex personally, so I know what he was going through. Everybody wants to talk about mental health and they want to praise people for being honest about their mental health issues and support them on their mental health journey to wellness. Alex has gone through some real issues and one of the reasons why he's gone through some issues is because that guy is uncovering real shit that's terrifying every fucking day and he was drinking out of control and you know he's just fucking constantly stressed freaking out and when you see so many lies and and so much propaganda and and so many siops that are being done on people you start seeing them where they don't exist and that's what he did well and he's also [2:13:03] channeling some stuff. You can't call 911 in detail because you're super informed. Before the fact he called it. He literally called it in the summer of 2001. He said planes will fly into the World Trade Center and they will blame a man called us some of Ben Laden. We know that he said it because he said it on tape multiple times. And then he said call the White House and tell them this now Let's just that's all we know about Alex Jones. Let's just say that's the fact set How that happened? Right? How did he do that? No? He's channeling something you know super. Yeah, of course. Yeah, there's like no other I mean tell me how we did it otherwise. I've asked him about it. How did you do that at At length, you did it on my barn recently, or time of this. How did you do that? I don't know. It just came to me. And that's real. That is real. The supernatural is real. And I don't know why it's hard for the modern mind, guess because it's a materialist mind to accept that. But what you see, and that's not a new [2:14:01] phenomenon, it's happened throughout history. There are people called prophets. And there are people who were prophets who weren't called prophets, but there are people who have information or parts of information, bits of information, visions of information come to them and then they relay it. It's not from them. They received it. This is like the one of the oldest phenomenon in human history. So those people tend to be a little crazy, a little unbalanced, a little different from everybody else. Do you know what I mean? They live on the locusts and honey in the wilderness. I mean, that's just like, they're not like everybody else. And that's clearly part of what I'm not saying that everything that Alex Jones says is a prophecy from God, it's not. But that was prophetic. And if it wasn't, tell me how it wasn't. In July of 2000, like I lived in Washington, in July of 2001. You know, my dad worked in the government. Like I was as well informed as anybody could be about what was going on in the government. I've always been interested in what's happening in other countries. [2:15:02] I was aware of a something been lied. And I knew about the Taliban, I knew more than most people. There's not one person who was saying, not one person in Washington, see, was saying, you know, at some point soon, they may fly airplanes into the world trade centers and blame a somb and lad and like, that just wasn't a thing. So if you said that multiple times on camera, there's a reason. And everyone, I've said this to 50 people and I just said to you and they all look at me like, yeah, that's stupid. Tell me how it's stupid. Tell me how he did that. That's impossible. He didn't just do it with that either. No, I'm aware. He's done it with a lot of things. And that's one of the more interesting things about him is that he talks about stuff like he talked about like I'm gonna send this to Jamie because this is one of the really crazy ones that he he called and this is like 2000 2000 probably I guess 2017 [2:16:02] 2017 Here it is let me find this give me a second here Because I sent it to him like how the fuck did you call this? Because it's it's one of those ones where you like this is exactly what's happening now Here it is here 2017 hold on a second. I'll send you this, Jamie. Come here. Technology, let's go. All right, I sent it to you, Jamie. So this is some guy's Instagram clip that I found that took a clip from the podcast and he's doing commentary over put these on real quick. You got it? Okay cool. [2:17:03] Here we go. 22 years on podcast info wars Jones, and Joe Rogan discuss what's currently happening right now. Google, Surn, Technology, Vampire, Alien, and the next show, Alex was pretty on point with this message. Let me know what your thoughts are. Is he crazy or is he on something? It's really big. Okay. Yeah, pouring on the shot. Maybe you get this out from it now. Alright, let me give you my best of the please. Deep research, a proclamation. What do you think is going, but am I wrong to still hold out hope that aliens are real? Because I tell you, that's one of the two guilty pleasures that I still cling to is big-foot in aliens those are two big-foot not so much I wish it was real but I just don't are you ready yes big-foot true no come on daddy no are you ready yes I'm gonna give you the big-foot show there are a lot of [2:18:00] things in this room right now for real yeah you're not in this world bro me you're the Yeah, you're not in this world, bro me you're the alien. Oh wow. I didn't know Well, here's what the elite believe and let me be very clear is the video to this on context I only go with what I can prove. Oh, thank you and people can't even handle that. There's armies We're fighting a pentafol conspiracy, but beyond that it's a fan-park conspiracy in that they are Interdimensionally sucking the essence of our youth. Right. And they believe they're possessed by an awful world entity. They do. Yeah. And Joe, I've been on air 22 years. I don't get into aliens, metaphysical, religion, any of that. I've studied the elite. And I've also communicated with a lot of the top people. And if you want to know, I will actually break down right now. The best knowledge right now, what's happening on the planet. What's happening? The elite are all about transcendence and living forever and the secrets of the universe and they want to know all this summer good, summer bad, summer mix. But the good ones don't ever want to organize. The bad ones didn't want to organize because they lost their power. Powerful consciousnesses don't want to dominate other people. [2:19:02] They want to empower them so they don't tend to get together until things are really late in the game then they come together. Evil is always defeated because good is so much stronger. And we're on this planet and Einstein's Physics Show that Max Planck's Physics Show to all of us, at least 12 dimensions. And now that's all the top scientists and new billionaires are coming out saying it's a false hologram. It is artificial. The computers are scanning and finding tension points where it's artificially projected and gravity is bleeding in to this universe. That's what they call dark matter. So we're like a thought or a dream that's a whisp in some computer programs, some gods mind, whatever. They're proving it all. It's all coming out. Now there's like this sub-transmission zone below the third dimension. This just turned over to the most horrible things is what it resonates to. And it's trying to get up into the third dimension. That's just a basic level consciousness to launch into the next levels. And our species are already way up at the fifth, sixth dimension, consciously our best people. [2:20:00] But there's this big war trying to like basically destroy humanity because humanity has free will and there's a Decision to which level we want to go to we have free will so evil's allowed to come and contend not just good and the elites themselves believe they're racing We're using human technology to try to take our best minds and build some type of breakaway to take our best minds and build some type of breakaway civilization where they're going to merge with machines, transcend and break away from the failed species of this man, which is kind of like a false transmission because they're thinking what they are is ugly and bad, protecting and onto themselves, instead of believing, no, it's a human test about building us up. And so Google was set up 18, 19 years ago. This was, I knew about this before, it was classified, I'm saying I have good sources, that they wanted to build a giant artificial system. And Google believes that the first artificial intelligence will be a supercomputer based on the neuron activities of the hive mind of humanity with billions of people wired [2:21:01] into it with the internet of science. And so all of our thoughts go into it, and we're actually building a computer that has real neurons in real time that's also psychically connected to us that are organic creatures so that they will have current prediction powers, future prediction powers, a true crystal ball, but the big secret is, once you have a crystal ball and know the future, you can add stimuli beforehand and make decisions that control the future. And so then it's the end of consciousness and free will for individuals, as we know, and a true 2.0 and a very bad way, high of mind consciousness with an AI jacked into everyone knowing our hopes and dreams, delivering it to us, not in some PKD wirehead system where we plug in and give up onness because of unlimited pleasure But because we were already wired in and absorbed before we knew it by giving over our consciousness to the system Our daily decisions that it was able to manipulate and control into a larger system There's now a human counter strike taking place to shut this off before it gets fully into place and to block these systems [2:22:03] And to try to have an actual debate about where humanity goes and cut off the pedophiles and psychic vampires that are control of this AI system before humanity's destroyed. But AI, how did the pedophile... Yeah, it's pretty much it. It's incredible. I didn't understand about it. That was seven years ago. Seven years ago. Okay. So, no, it's seven years ago. No one was thinking, yeah, I was gonna take over civilization. It's, you can see why the FBI decided to destroy him, which it did. The people, I mean, it's just like, what has happened to Alex Jones is proof that at least some of what he's saying is true because what why who is Alex Jones a threat to did you see that interview with the guy from the i was trying to hook up with that dude on a date cia yeah was a cia that's right and they were they were talking about how they can destroy a person yeah i think i was mentioned in there too well you yeah was uh... [2:23:01] yeah i mean there are couple of the case who yeah again i don't the third dimension I don't know anything about dimensions. Okay, so I can't comment on that. But two things he said are true. One is that every civilization, every religion, the Greek myths, you know, every single one, including Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, has believed that there is sort of, that the spirit world and humanity are like, that there's, you know, there are hybrids. Yeah. Okay. So that's just a fact. Genesis 6. So, you know, I don't think that's crazy at all, given that it has been the belief of civilizations that had no contact with each other. I don't think that's crazy at all given that it has been the belief of Civilizations that I know contact with each other. I don't think it's crazy and I also don't think it's crazy to consider it I don't think we have a real map of reality Well, we definitely don't and I exactly Better put than I then I explain it. That's exactly right. We don't have a real map and it's not crazy to consider it [2:24:04] And it was a very it was an entirely conventional view up until fairly recently that, yeah, that the spirit world, like I want to donate space breeds with people, but that is, that, everyone thought that, okay. Right. And even the term spirit world is probably a loaded term. Yeah, of course, if they're all loaded terms. Whatever it is. How do you say it in a way that doesn't sound crazy, but the whole thing sounds crazy, because we don't acknowledge the reality, the actual physical reality, the supernatural, and the Israel. That's the first thing. The second point that's obviously true is that people, weak people, which is a synonym for bad people, come together for strength and safety. They act as one. The hive mind is specific to a certain group of people, bad people, and that good people don't tend to come together, but they're coming together now. And I just notice this. I mean, people independently who I know or sort of know in many cases have long despised, [2:25:01] have come to exactly the same conclusions without talking to each other. I know that you have this experience all the same conclusions that talk into each other. I know that you have this experience all the time. Yeah. It's like, I can't believe you think that. How did you wind up thinking that? Right. And not just on a specific issue like foreign policy or COVID or whatever, but like on a whole bunch of different things. They're all coming to the same conclusion and they're coming together. And so that does suggest a big change in a battle. I mean, it is a battle between good and evil. I'm not always convinced I'm on the good side. I've been in an instrument of evil many times in my life, and I'm ashamed of it. But... You talking about the Iraq war? Yeah, the Iraq war. I've been cruel to people, probably even already on your show, in ways that are unjustified. That's my instinct to do that. That's a fault not, you know, not something to brag about it's something I'm ashamed of. So I'm not saying I'm always on the right side. I certainly have not always been on the right side. I've been on the wrong side many, many times. But that doesn't change the fact that there is good, there is evil. [2:26:00] They are at war with each other and we are subject to the effects of that conflict and that we're seeing it suddenly play out in ways that are really, really obvious. There's no political explanation for the trans phenomenon. Nobody benefits. You can say, I hear these right-wingers be like, really, it's all about the people who make synthetic hormones. They benefit, yeah, okay, they benefit. It's not driving it. That's stupid. It's not about the money actually. There's no upside. It's not helping the kids at all. If a child has anorexia, which is pretty common actually in this country, and the child thinks she's fat, you don't say to the child, yeah, you're fat. You don't do that. You give the child help if you can. It's hard to treat, but you try. If a child comes to you and says, actually, I think it was born in the wrong body, the last thing you do is a firm that it's hurting the child. Like, why would you do that? If you love the child, you wouldn't do that. It's really an exercise undertaken for the sake of destruction, the sake of hurting someone. There's no real upside. What's another phrase, description of that? [2:27:01] It's evil. And you see that a lot, a lot. And why? Like, what is that? What is it? And why is it so obvious to a completely, even a completely secular person like me, all of a sudden? There's a reason for that. We're what, you know, history is moving really, really fast. We're right in the middle of it. And I probably wouldn't have chosen to be born at the time I was. I'd much rather reach maturity in 1955. Really? Well, I don't know. I don't get to choose. I don't like drama. I don't like change. But there was drama and change back then too. There was. But people didn't reckon, well, if there was a Cold War, of course, there was a Korean War, okay. But people didn't see it in their face. Right, in the way, I don't think. When you rather know, I don't have a choice, I do know. Yeah, I'd rather know. I'd rather be right now. Yeah, well, you've got a much better attitude than I. I mean, sometimes my parents got divorced when I was little and so I kind of like I don't want change. Yeah, I know it's not up to me. I know what you mean. [2:28:05] Yeah. You know, I was having a conversation in the green room with a club the other night about this guy from Canada that's HIV positive, that's a trans woman that's taking hormones so they can breastfeed their nine-month-old daughter. So biological male is taking hormones and is now breastfeeding their daughter off of their male tit. And I said, if I was Satan, if Satan was real, I would do that. Exactly. If Satan's real, I would, I mean, if Satan was going to do something insidious and unbelievably creepy, he would do that. Well, I think he is doing that, obviously. But this guy's a real freak. Ideas and unbelievably creepy. He would do that. Well, I think he is doing that, obviously. But this guy's a real freak. Well, but he's also using public money too. But he's a victim too. I mean, the thing about, right, because the thing about evil, the reason that evil is distinct from everything else, it destroys the vessel, it's held in, [2:29:02] the conduit through which it flows, destroys the person. So like that guy in the end will not thrive. Right. He'll be destroyed too. And so that's how you know that it's supernatural. In other words, if I, you know, if I steal your iPhone and sell it, and I can get an extra 400 bucks, like that's kind of explicable. You understand why I'm doing that. I want the 400 bucks. But if I'm encouraging your kid to castrate himself, I'm not really benefiting from that actually. There's no material benefit to me at all. There's no real psychic benefit. It's hurting for its own sake. And that's evil. There's no political category that explains that. Right. And then there's clearly money involved in that. There is money, of course. The gender affirming clinics that have popped up all over the country since 2007. Sure. You see the map of it, it's fucking bananas. But why would you want to do that? That's why would policymakers want to do that? Why would anybody want to make money that way, right? Well, but also it's the most unnatural thing ever because parents, every parent of the certain age feels like I like my kids. I want grandkids. [2:30:05] Right. And you want to protect your child. You want to continue. Yeah. So I always think the politicians who push, training is them on the country. Like their kids are going trans too. Yeah. They are. Right. They're not escaping it. It's like they're burning down their own house. I would like to see the statistics of people in Hollywood. Like how many of their kids turn trans versus the rest of the world? Yeah, I know some of them too. But how many of them versus the rest of the world? A lot more. A lot more. Which is a morally corrupt business. Yes. Yeah. Like more than we knew, more than I knew, you know, the entertainment business. It's always been that way. You know, Tarantino was talking to us about this famous old director that had a bedroom in his office, where he would bed the starlets. And it was just common knowledge. If he wanted to be in his movie, he had to fuck him. And he'd go into his office, he had a literal bedroom in his office. We had some of that in television, yes. I'm sure. [2:31:00] Yeah, quite a bit. Yeah, and I didn't really understand, you know, obviously partaking it or you would know because all my text messages went up at the New York Times. So I'm not hiding any of my own behavior. But I mean, I will say if I'm being honest, I didn't really register with me. I was like, yeah, that's kind of wild and crazy. I just didn't, you know, like my wife, I don't want to blow up my family and do anything like that really but I certainly saw a lot, like a lot of it, like a lot. And I didn't really see it as like horrifying I just saw it as kind of like, well you know created people with this way kind of thing but I look back and I was really dark. Well especially the producer thing right? That like the Weinstein thing that the way they ran the business that's how it was paid a play. I worked for Harvey Weinstein for a year. Did you really? Yeah, I did. When? 1999. He had a magazine with Tina Brown called Talk Magazine. I was the head political writer for it. And they had an office at Carnegie Towers in New York [2:32:01] right below the park. And I remember the big con, I remember that he was a pig. I was not like an intimate friend of his or whatever, but I certainly dealt with him. And the big conch was he was smoking an elevator's. And that was, and I've kind of supported that if I'm being honest, but he was considered incredibly insensitive and just like vulgar. It's like a pig. He looks vulgar. Yeah, well that was certainly what everyone thought of him where I worked. Harvey was just a pig and his brother Bob was a little bit less that way. He was also involved. But yeah, people knew that he was a bad guy, but like... They made awesome movies. Yeah, and also, but he was just powerful. It's like Harvey Weinstein. Like, I want to fuck with Harvey Weinstein. I mean, I didn't really think about it too much to be completely honest. I was just a guy I worked for, but I don't know. I certainly, if you'd played the Alex Jones clip for me in 1999, I would have been, and I did see Alex Jones clips in 1999. And then in later years, where he was talking about building seven, and I was very offended. I was like outraged that he would be suggesting that there was something about 9.11 that wasn't above board that there [2:33:07] Was you know things we didn't know they were being hidden from us And I was like mad at Alex Jones for saying that I remember that really well. How dare you the buildings have in one is wild Well, it is why I mean I know what all I know is 21 I don't know what year it is 23 years years? Could it really be 23 years after 9, 11, 23 years later? What's the justification for classifying any document around 9, 11? There's no justification. Well, the same justification classifying the documents about the Kennedy disaster. Well, exactly 61 years later. Yeah, or releasing the COVID vaccine data 75 years later. Of course. Yeah. Right, I mean, it's, of course, look, secrecy is different from privacy. Privacy is necessary for the dignity of this white, you've got a door in the bathroom and you're bedroom, right? You need privacy, you need private thoughts. We have no privacy whatsoever, not no privacy at all. Thanks to the iPhone and governments buying on us all. So there's no privacy, but there's massive secrecy. Secrecy is different, secrecy of bets lying. The only reason to have secrecy is in order to do something that you're ashamed of other people knowing about that's immoral and probably illegal. [2:34:09] And there's more secrecy than ever. And that means that there's more lying than ever. There are more crimes being committed than ever. That's the sure sign of it. Why are there a billion classified federal documents in a so-called democracy? Because they're lying to us, that's why. But 9-11, like, what is the justification for that? I don't know the answer, I really don't know the answer, but there is one. That's for sure. It's not methods and sources, you think it's methods and sources? Trying to protect their Saudi sources? I don't think so. You know, the wildest thing about Tower 7 is that if you just say it looks like a controlled demolition people get mad at you. Why? Well, I don't know. I'm not saying that it is a controlled demolition, but I'm saying if you watch it, it looks like a controlled demolition. But that happens all the time. Buildings catch fire and they just implode in on themselves. I think that's every week, right? [2:35:02] All these poultry plants and manufacturing plants that keep getting burned through fire, they all like, it's the way it went down. Yeah. So I say why do they respond that way and of course I responded that way. So when I think looking back the reason that I did was because if you call that into question, you had to ask a lot of other really obvious questions you didn't want to deal with and you might arrive at the conclusion that a lot of your most basic assumptions are false and that you've been had, and it's just too destabilizing maybe. Right. Well, the real problem with Tower 7 is they go, well, okay, if it was a controlled demolition, how was that engineered? Did they just decide to do that before September 11th, and you know how long it would take to rig a building like that? Right. Or was it built into the building? And how would they know it would even work? And how would they do something like that? And how would there not be a record of it being built into the building? Like for someone to engineer the cloud signature. And where's the sound signature? The cloud signature on the tape. There would be a sound of the explosions. Yeah, that's a fair question. Yeah, so a lot of fair questions. [2:36:06] And has there ever been a building that experienced a tremendous amount of damage because two enormous skyscrapers fell right next to it, damaged it, and then massive fire started, and then there's diesel generators that are in the basement. So they have all this fuel, so they have this incredible inferno in the basement that weakens can structure. Is that why it collapsed? Maybe. Totally possible. A lot of building engineers disagree with that as you know. Yeah. And they don't think that could have happened in the way you just described. I'm agnostic on it. What I know, because I don't know the answer, and I have no way of of knowing all I know is that there's no justification for keeping those documents Secret that I can think of and if there is tell tell us what it is no one has bothered because nobody presses and It's you know I've that to the list of outrageous. Yeah, you know what I mean and then it gives you this feeling of helplessness [2:37:00] Because there's so many of those they just pile on there's There's always another one. There's always a new one. He was government-spied on me, broken to my phone, and spied on me, and I couldn't get a straight answer to that, and I'm not a felon, and I'm- Well, not only that, they got into your signal account, right? Yeah, and then they leaked it to the New York Times what they found there. So it's one thing to picked up your text exchanges with a foreign national, which is true. I text a lot of foreign nationals because of my job. Why wouldn't I? And that's my right as far as I'm concerned. That's not illegal. But we picked up your text exchanges, which I think is self as a lie. I think they were targeting me. I think they are now. I know I'm pretty positive they are. But whatever leaving that aside, we spied on you, we think we have justification. Is there a justification for leaking the contents of my private conversation to a news out what in order to discredit me? No, there's no. That's secret police shit, okay? Yeah. I'm not whining. I'm a victim. I'm certainly not a victim. But what was infuriating was my toe, and I got members of Congress involved because I was pissed and I felt threatened. I couldn't get a straight answer. They were just like, [2:38:05] we're not answering those questions and what are you gonna do about it? Bitch, what are you gonna do about it? Oh, I don't possess a drone fleet. There's nothing I can do about it actually. That's the truth. So when the system breaks down and things like, I don't know, honesty, justice, the law, none of those apply to people in charge decide that's doesn't apply to me you are literally powerless and Bazaar that the New York Times wouldn't have an issue with that Well the New York Times does that all the time but but but bazaar that they wouldn't have an issue with the government tapping into your phone they work for the government are you kidding right the New York Times? Yeah, the New York Times is a conduit for the lies of government. That's what it is. It's their tool and they're perfectly aware of that. I mean, I used to write for the New York Times as a freelancer. I mean, I've been around the New York Times a lot and there are a lot of really smart people there, but for sure, even now, I would less so now, but there's still, I think, smart people there. There are. I know some. And they know. But they think that that, [2:39:06] you know, it's worth it because they're bringing information or I don't know what they think actually. But no, they're, they're tools of power. And that's like the one thing that you're not allowed to be. Even if you think the power is good, like maybe they all support the agenda of the US government and destabilizing the world and impoverishing their own population. Maybe they're in board with that. destabilizing the world and impoverishing their own population. Maybe they're in bored with that. Even if they are, they shouldn't do it because the job of the media, the press, is to keep power in check. You are kind of like the seatbelt, right? You make sure that things don't go too far. So, and they're not doing that. They're acting as a willing handmaid. When do you think that's switched? I think it's been the case for a long time. I mean, if you look at what happened in Richard Nixon, which I, of course, did not understand at all, Richard Nixon was taken out by the FBI and CIA, [2:40:00] and with the help of Bob Woodward, who was a Washington Post reporter, who had been a Naval Intelligence Officer working in the White House, working in the Nixon White House. And then he shows up like a year later, and he's this brand new reporter. He'd never been a journalist at all. He's a Naval Intel Officer, the famous Bob Woodward, we all reviewer, and he's at the Washington Post, and somehow he gets the biggest story in the history of the Washington Post. He's the lead guy in that story. Well, I worked at a newspaper, I've been in the news business my whole life. That is not how it works. You don't take a kid like his first day from a totally unrelated business and put him on the biggest story but he was he was that guy and who is his main source for water to owe the number two guy at the fb oh so you have the navel intelligence officer working with the fb i official to destroy the president okay so that's a deep state coup [2:41:01] what else how would you describe that if that happened in guanamala what would you say and yet the way it was framed and the way that I accepted for decades was, oh, this intrepid reporter fought power. No, no, no, this intrepid reporter, Bob Woodward, was a tool of power, secret power, which is the most threatening kind, to bounce the single most popular president in American history, Richard Nixon from office before the end of his term, and replace him with who? Oh Gerald Ford who sat on the Warren Commission. Now how did Gerald Ford get to be Richard Nixon's vice president? Well, because Carl Albert, the Democrat Speaker of the House told him you must choose him. We will only confirm him when they sent the actual elected vice president away for tax evasion, Spiro Agnew of Maryland. So you have a complete set up. Like an abs Joe Ford, the only unelected president of American history actually sat on the Warren commission. Something else that I accepted at face value until I looked at it, I was like, [2:42:01] that's completely insane. You didn't to interview jack ruby in your investigation of the assassination okay your fake yeah he was on the war in commission and so uh... sorry for the long story but the point is like that that happened in front of all of us but the way it was framed cloaks of the obvious reality of it the people who broke into the watergate office building from which the name has taken watergate I think it was six of them or seven of them all but one was a CIA employee That that's real and it's like looking up on Google So the whole thing Richard Nixon was elected by more votes than any president in American history in the 1972 election He was the most popular by votes, which is the only way we can really measure popularity, the most popular president. In his reelection campaign, and two years later he's gone, undone by a naval intel officer, the number two guy at the FBI and a bunch of CIA employees, you tell me what that is. Those are the facts. Those are not disputed facts. That's not crackpot shit. That's just look it up. [2:43:06] So why did they want to get rid of Nixon? You know, there are a lot of theories on that. I mean, we don't, first of all, we don't need to know motive to know what happened. They, meaning, unelected federal employees, got rid of Richard Nixon, which is the most anti-democratic way to make a leadership change that there is. I should say at the outset, I actually kind of believe in democracy. Obviously, it's not working well. Obviously, it's ending globally. There will never be another liberal democracy, unfortunately. But I'm attached to it because I was born here. I really believe in it. It's better than in the other system. That's why I'm pissed. What was their motive? There are a lot of theories on this. There's an amazing conversation. It's on tape between Richard Nixon when he was still president. I think it was in 1973, and I think it was Richard Helms, the head of the CIA, though I may have fucked that up, but it was the head of the CIA, and I think it was Helms. And Nixon says, I know why they killed Jack Kennedy. [2:44:07] So Nixon was a student of history, obviously a flawed and complicated person, but a very smart person. And he was really interested in why this guy who'd been president, just one president before him, was murdered. And he didn't think it was a lone gunman who was mysteriously assassinated two days later by another lone gunman like it's so obviously bullshit. And he knew that. He said the SAID director who, and you can listen to the tape, it's on the internet, is totally silent on this question. So I think there was the impression, I don't think I know, that Nixon understood that the bureaucracy was really in control of the country. It wasn't elected officials and That's a massive threat Because it's true So and there may have been other reasons too that I'm not privy to look all I and by the way I didn't even know any of this despite having moved to Washington in high school and been around this stuff a lot a lot a lot a lot [2:45:02] I Didn't know any of that. And I know Bob Woodward, personally. So I didn't, and I know Carl Bernstein personally, even worked for Carl Bernstein briefly. So I knew some of the actual players in this, but I didn't connect the obvious dots because they weren't framed that way. That's the point I'm making. It's the way that you frame things. You can have all the information available on Wikipedia, which is also controlled by the intelligences, but there's still information on there. The information can be out there in the public domain. It's a matter of seeing it for what it is, right? Yeah. So Nixon said that he knew why they killed JFK. Did he elaborate? Nope. And it's worth listening to. It's a very weird conversation that takes place in the Oval Office, which famously had tape recording devices in it. Obviously, this became a big feature during the Watergate hearings. But yes, that conversation, and I may be mangling it slightly, but it's on the internet [2:46:03] and absolutely worth listening to. And the CIA director has this kind of sinister silence. So like if I'm the president, you're the CIA director, and I say I know why the guy who was just president 10 years ago was killed, the obvious answer would be like, well why? You know what, you know why he was killed? You've got insight into the assassination of the US president? He doesn't say anything. Just like a very weird response like what? Just kind of throw that out there. Like if you say to me, you know, we're taking a leak here at the next year and only like, I figured out the secret to life. And I'm like, huh? Okay. Not a good response. Right. Right. It's a telling response. you hear trumps take on the JFK assassination why he didn't release the files i know what trump's taking said that if you knew what i know you wouldn't tell people either which is crazy well it is that's his position on the u a p thing as well [2:47:01] yeah actually and that's a lot of people's position on it. I mean, you know, Trump is saying, of course, the CIA had knowledge of it that is known. I mean, I mean, the whole thing, that's like, it's so funny. There's so many levels and there's so much I don't understand. But the whole JFK conspiracy industry, and it really isn't industry, more books written on that than almost any historical topic, is filled with wackos, right? There are a lot of wackos in there. But it obscures, that fact obscures the larger fact, which is the facts themselves tell an unbelievable story. Yeah. And so whatever I could get into it at great length, but yeah, yeah, there're still classifying documents 61 years later, both Trump and Joe Biden have in violation of my read of federal law, kept those documents secret. There's no living person connected to the Kennedy assassination. [2:48:01] It was a couple generations ago. There's no one person whose secrets are being protected. It's an institution or maybe countries. There may have been countries involved too. I don't know the answer, but there's clearly something worth protecting. And I know that when I spoke to someone who'd seen the documents two years ago and I got one fact out of them, which is, yes, the CIA was involved. And by CIA, CIA is a huge organization, but James Jesus Angleton, the head of the Operations Directorate, had knowledge of this, which I think is well known. But that's the view of someone who saw the documents. So I thought that was new, so I went on TV and said that. The next day, I'll never forget it. I went quail hunting and I was driving back and I got a phone call from Mike Pompeo's lawyer. Mike Pompeo was a secretary of state, but before then he was the director of the CIA. And in that position, he plotted the murder of Julian Assange. [2:49:01] So he is a criminal as far as I'm concerned. But his lawyer called me and said, you know, you should know that anyone who tells you the contents of classified documents has committed a crime. He's threatening me. Is it my car? I'll never, with my dog sitting next to him. I'll never forget this. And I said, are you really saying that to reveal that the US government had a role in the murder of a democratically elected president to say that out loud, that's the crime? What about the actual crime, which is murdering a president? Like, you're covering up for that, Mike Pompeo. What did he say, though? He had no response at all. And so Mike Pompeo is the one who pressed Trump to keep those documents secret. so it's like what's crazy to me is not just the Pompeo did that I think Pompeo is a really sinister person and a criminal. I think that I think that because the facts suggest that he was caught Yahoo news Micah is a cough for a long piece on this several years ago his employees went to my guest cough and said hey [2:50:03] Mike Pompeo was plotting to murder Julina Sange who's never even been charged with a crime in the United States as CI director that's illegal you're not allowed federal employees are not allowed to just kill people they don't like okay just just set the baseline here so that's who Mike Pompeo is but he somehow intimidated Trump into not releasing. That's, well, okay, that's all bad, right? I think it's criminal behavior. What's crazy is how Mike Pompeo is treated. He's treated as like a Republican Puba in good standing. He fully expects to become the Secretary of Defense in a Trump administration, which is like completely insane. Why would you get criminal and give him nuclear weapons? Okay, that's my view. I think it's a common sense view. And like he goes to fundraisers and dinners and everyone's like, hey, Mike Pompeo, it's like, no, you're the guy who kept information, the public has right to know secret. You're the guy who plotted the murder of someone who committed no crime. You are the outlaw, you are the bad guy but no he's treated as like you know like a pillar of republican washington i think that's [2:51:07] i think it's mind bending to watch that and by the way you know whatever that's all say by the way no i mean i'm you know people don't say that because they're worried about getting punished the word about some putting kiddie porn on their computer members of congress are terrified of the Intel agencies. I'm not guessing at that. They've told me that, including people on the Intel committee, including people who run the Intel committee. The people whose job it is to oversee and keep in line these enormous secretive agencies, whose budgets we can't even know, they're black budgets, the parents, the agencies are the children. They're afraid of the agencies. That's not compatible with democracy. Democracies are really simple system, even representative democracy like ours. The people rule, they do so through elections, they express their preference through voting, [2:52:01] they send their people to the capital city to run the government on their behalf. Whenever you have unelected people who are not accountable to anyone making the biggest decisions, you don't have a democracy, you have something else. Another system, I would call it a tyranny or whatever you want to call it. It's not a democracy. So that's like super obvious. It's playing out in front of everyone and no one cares. No one does anything about it. And I think the reason is because they're threatened. And if you look at the committee chairman who allowed this shit to happen year after year, they're all, and I don't know, people say, oh, they're compromised or being blackmailed, I don't have evidence of that, but I know them. And they all have things to hide. I know that for a fact. And so it's not a stretch of imagination to imagine that some committee chairman who's allowing, warrantless spying on Americans to continue or whatever abuse they're allowing, knowing fully or hiding the truth about UAPs, ignoring the UAP disclosure act of 2023, like why are they doing that? It's not impossible to imagine that some guy with a drinking problem or a weird sex life [2:53:03] and that's very common, very common up there, that's why they're doing it. Because they don't wanna be exposed. I don't have evidence of that, I don't approve of that. But that's not a crazy thing to assume that that could be happening. And I said to somebody a very powerful person, the other day, in a conversation in my kitchen, an elected official holds a really senior position a very famous person. I was going crazy. I was so mad about all this stuff and about the warrantless spying and about the funding for these insane wars. And I said to the guy who serves in one of the legislative bodies, I guess so mad my dogs were afraid. They're like, well, why are you yelling? Because I don't yell at home. But I was like, all these people are controlled. They're all, you know, weird sex lives and all these things are hiding and they're being blackmailed by the interligencies and he said, and I'm quoting, I know. It was like, okay, so at this point, we're just sort of admitting that's real. Like, why do we allow that to continue? They're having people compromise thing. [2:54:01] God, that's an old story. It's the oldest story. Jay Edgar Hoover. It's all of them. It's Epstein's Island. It's everything. But look, I don't have any. I'm telling you, I'm, what's the phrase the finance guys use, open kimono? Like, I'm actually telling you all I know. I don't know anything else. Right. But I know that the publicly available facts tell a really clear story, which is the government is not acting on behalf of the population. And so it's inherently illegitimate because its only legitimacy derives from the citizenry. The only reason the government can do things that it does, kill people, collect money by force, all the powers that it has come from one place, and that's the consent of the government. That's the only legitimacy to have. And that's where it's fascinating this concept of good and evil because when you think about it, if this is true and if these people are compromised because they're secretly perverts and creeps, they are though. And they're corrupt and they steal money or they all these different things are evil [2:55:03] things. Lying, controlling people, engaging and unnecessary wars that are going to cost thousands of lives for profit. All these things are evil things. So if evil is real, evil would want those kind of people to be in a position of power. Yes. And here's evil would want men to rest free their children. Here's the like, here's the, here's the illusion that we fall for time and again, we imagine that evil comes, like fully advertised as such, like evil people look like Anton Levant. Ends, yeah. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? Black cloak. Exactly. Sickle. Evil is an independent force that exists outside of people that acts upon people. I really believe that I've experienced it a lot. And it's obvious. And what vessel do they choose the week? It's weekmen and women who are instruments of evil. The weaker the leader, the more evil [2:56:04] that leader will be. So it's, and unfortunately, we've reached a time in American history where every leader is either a woman or a weak man, pretty much. And so there's, I'm sorry to say it, that's just true. And the weaker the leader, that's what Mike Johnson, everyone's like, oh, Mike Johnson, such a nice guy. Well, I know Mike Johnson and he's perfectly nice guy to the set that he's like polite and seems kind of meek and restrained and he's not saying motherfucker every ever you know what I mean? He's got like very sort of button down affect, but he's a weak man and that's the man you should be afraid of. The people who you shouldn't be less afraid of are the headstrong, loud, don't care what anybody thinks. Yeah, those guys will go off track, but they're probably not gonna a bit genocide or blow up the world in nuclear exchange because they might, they may be obnoxious, but they knew who they are. Week people just become a host for evil. [2:57:02] You know, an open empty building that evil occupies possesses even. And that's exactly what's happening to Mike Johnson. That's like absolutely crazy of what Mike Johnson is doing. But it's not because he's evil, it's because he's weak and there are of course susceptible to evil. It's a meaningful distinction that I have noticed. It is a very strange thing how many weak people wind up being leaders in this society, and particularly because so many people don't want their lives exposed. They don't want that eye of Sauron gazing down upon that if they try to run for president. I got it. Or the physical threat. Yeah, physical being looked at what's happening in the RFK, where the physical threat. Yeah, physical being, look what's happening to RFK, where the Biden administration, for the first time ever, denied him secret service protection. It's absolutely. As a legitimate presidential candidate. What's absolutely nuts? Yeah. I mean, how is that? It means hard. You know, you realize that a lot of the things that we took for granted were actually voluntary. [2:58:01] Like, people just didn't do things because that's just wrong, that's not fair. You know what I mean? That's bad sportsmanship. There was a lot of self-restraint involved in running a functional society. You can't just make an infinite number of laws and enforce them. That's impossible. You rely on people to just not do bad shit because I'm not the kind of person who does bad shit. Mm-hmm. And once the people in charge decide, well, I'm just gonna do whatever I want, not all you can do about it. So the Biden administration denies some secret service protection. And you're like, how can you do that? Like, what are you gonna do about it? Bitch. And like the answer is nothing, actually. What is this most recent bill that they're trying to pass about the ability to monitor phones. Well, it's just the nightmare scenario. It's something that they're already capable of doing because they did it to you and they did it through an encrypted app. Oh, they do. Oh, yeah. How do they do it? Do you know how they use? How they got into your phone? Um, well, there are two ways to do. [2:59:04] It's interesting. I was with Ed Snowden in Moscow and talked a lot about this because he's got the technical, he's for sure an excellent and principled person. His ex-feed is a really good place to start for people to understand what's happening here. He's paid a huge price for being on, obviously, he's literally exiled to Moscow Involuntarily, but there are a couple ways to do it One you know you could Hack into signal I guess it's open source It was created with C.I. Money as I'm sure you know I'm not sure that's how you I don't think you need to do that you just capture the phone itself You just capture the phone and. You just capture the phone. And the bottom line on digital security is that nothing is safe from state actors who want to spy on your periods. There's no electronic communication that they can't monitor a period. What about these things? Like Eric Prince has some new phone out. I think it's called unplugged. [3:00:01] Yeah, Eric is a good friend of mine and I've I have a couple of those phones and I've talked to him a lot about it And he's a really a wonderful person one of my favorite people actually But that that phone is is designed it for a different purpose I think I know and that that phone is designed to keep Apple and Google from tracking you which is sort of a separate category like Was this Jimmy I think which bill the one you're talking about oh, okay house bill So that's it so to learn so let's just roll down to what you highlighted so this is like a perfect example so The Turner Himes bill Congressman Mike Turner and Jim Himes so who are Mike Turner in Jim Himes. So who are Mike Turner in Jim Himes? So it's just me funny. Both those guys are the most, and who knows why? And you can sort of fill in the blank on motive. I'm not going to. [3:01:00] But those are two of the most reliable water carriers for the intel agencies and for basically the federal bureaucracy in the Congress. These are not people who are working for their constituents. These are people who are working for permanent Washington. I would say these are two of the most sinister people. I know more about Turner than Himes. But it's not surprising they're doing this. It would permit federal law enforcement to also force any other service provider with access to communications equipment to hand over data. Anyone with access to a Wi-Fi router, server or even phone, anyone from a landlord to a laundromat will be required to help the government spy. So that's the story right there. So basically, warrantless. Oh, of course warrantless, absolutely. And in, you know, violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, as if anyone cares anymore, no one does, clearly. But I just remember when I was a kid and we're roughly the same generation, you remember this too, people would be like, oh, East Germany, like there are more spies than there are people. East Germany was like the most elaborate surveillance state ever created, and of course, [3:02:03] it collapsed. But we'd always make fun of East Germany or North Korea. Who has more privacy? The average North Korean or the average American? Well obviously the average North Korean because there's less technology. The US government spies on its own population more than the North Korean government spies on it. That's just a fact. I'm not saying North Korea is preferable. I'm not moving there. I'm not carrying water for North Korea. What I'm doing is criticizing my government because I live here because it was better. It can be better. It should be better and it only will be when we demand it. And it's not some fucking esoteric like you have to be some crazy civil liberties lawyer or something like every person should demand, just as a starting point of baseline, that no, you're not allowed to spy on me, I didn't do anything wrong. Right. Like what? Right. No privacy, no humanity. You can't be fully human without privacy. And you also have to take into consideration that these people that are ahead of these intelligence [3:03:00] agencies that are requesting these data, are just human beings. They're human beings requesting data from other human beings without going through a court, without going to a judge and getting a warrant, without stating a case, without having, like, some clear national security mandate, something... Of course not. And there's no justification. I mean, by the way, we had FISA, we've had the FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act since I think 1977. So it predates 9-11. Did it stop 9-11? Oh, I don't think it did. Shut the fuck up. You're not protecting us actually. You open this other in order to anyone who wants to come. You're not checking IDs. You're not doing any kind of biometric. You're not even screening screening for COVID. So clearly don't care about my safety. Stop telling me you do. You don't. You're a criminal. Stop this, Shared. You don't care about my safety. So using my safety as a pretext for spying, I mean, it's not going to fly because I'm not that stupid. I'm maybe kind of stupid, but I'm not that stupid. No, you're doing this for one simple reason because this is what organizations do. They protect themselves. They exist [3:04:06] for their own benefit. All human organizations from the Church Bake Sale Committee to the Department of Justice, they all are the same. They're an organism just like any other and then organisms main goal is to survive and reproduce to get bigger. And you just see this throughout the federal bureaucracy. It just so happens that the largest human organization in history is the federal government of the United States. And so all of this stuff benefits, it accrues to its own power. That's why, like, let's say you believed every quote, piece of science or scientific claim about global climate change. You would not reach the same policy conclusions. You'd be like, well, the first thing we need is banned private air travel, because obviously that doesn't make any sense. And then the second thing we need to do is, you know, whatever, you'd look at it rationally from a scientific, if you bought the premise, which I don't, but if you did, you would. That, no, you go through every climate, quote, climate demand, not one of them disempowers large organizations, whether it's NGOs or the government of the [3:05:06] United States. Not one of them. They all make the government more powerful. And they all make you less powerful. So that's when you know it's not really about the temperature, the earth's atmosphere. It's about making them more powerful and disempowering you. And it's not about who runs those agencies. The bigger the agency, the more effective it will be in doing what all human organizations do, which is protect themselves and increase their power. It's like, it's fundamental. I guess that's what I'm saying. It's not about, oh, elect Trump, it'll change. No, it'll only change when we're just eliminating the CIA. And we're going to have a small Intel gathering service that feeds the president relevant information so we can make informed policy decisions. But we're not gonna, we're not gonna like overturn elections in other countries in the name of democracy because that's insane. If we believe in democracy, then we're gonna let people vote for their own leaders because we believe in democracy as a principle. Right? Like you just get rid of all this shit [3:06:01] because it's not helping us, it's only hurting us. And it would take someone, you know, who'd be willing to be assassinated to do anything like that. And so is, is your choosing your leaders? Ask yourself, does this person mean it enough to die? And that's the same question you would ask about your own dad. Does he love me enough to die for me about your own husband? Does he love me enough to protect me from a home invader at risk to himself? Like the basic prerequisite for leadership is love of the people you lead and the willingness to die for them. And if you don't have that, you shouldn't be leading period. It's true in the military. It's true in business. It's true in your home and it's true in the government. And so no president will fix this unless he's like literally willing to die for it. And short of that, it can't be fixed. I can think of no better way to end this conversation than that. Don't wrong get in ladies and gentlemen. You nailed it. Well, this is man, it's been very fun getting to know you. I think you are a very, you're a controversial character [3:07:02] in the world, but you're misunderstood. And I think if people pay attention to your actual work and the things that you talk about, I think you're generally a force of good. I really believe that. I feel like I'm the most conventional person who's ever lived. Yeah. I hope the camera at all, I'm the opposite. In this crazy time, someone who's conventional and wise seems radical. Maybe. I'm hoping for a better time. Yeah, I think a better time's possible. Me too. I do. It's just, we're in for a rough ride. Yeah, I'm not disarming anytime soon. Yeah. Thank you, Tucker. Thanks, Jeff. Bye everybody.