#2129 - David Holthouse

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David Holthouse

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David Holthouse is a writer, producer, and director. His new docuseries, "Krishnas: Gurus, Karma, Murder," is streaming on Peacock. www.davidholthouse.com

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How are you man? Good to see you again. Good. Thanks for having me back man. My pleasure. You made another awesome one man. This uh, the Christian is one. Oh my god. Whoo! There is something about these cult documentaries. Right. This is just, Whew. That one's heavy. Do you remember the hard equation of devotees in the airports? Because you're like me, like you're old enough of that generation that you might remember the white robe. I remember them. They had the flowers and they'd be selling books and shit in the airports. I don't know if I remember them in the airports. I remember them in the airports. I remember them in some places. I never have seen them. Yeah. But I just always thought they were just cooks. It's interesting knowing what I know now about the 60s and what was done to crush the hippie movement. It's interesting to see that this was connected to, sort of to kind of crush the hippie movement. Right. You know, it's interesting to see that this was connected to, you know, the Beatles and Peace and Love and then you see this sec that this, what was his name again? The Kierten Nanda was the guru that went way wrong. Yeah, went way wrong. But it is, well, let's just get into from the beginning. How did you get involved in this particular subject? So there's a production company, Marwara Junction, and they had actually sold this show to Peacock, and they were looking for a director. So this is the first show that I've made or helped to make that I haven't been involved in the sort of conception of the story from the jump. So they had developed the story and sold it to Peacock and they were shopping for director and they liked my work and so they hired me to make it. And so did you have any experience with the Christians before this? No, no. And I had a lot of people had a lot of misconceptions about them. Like I thought that there was a that the Harry Christian movement was invented in America in the 1960s. I just had it associated with sort of the hippie movement. [2:05] That's not the truth of it at all. It's like actually a spiritual tradition that dates back thousands of years, like far predates Christianity. It's based in these ancient spiritual texts called the Vedas, that the written version is like at least 3,500 years old. And the oral tradition goes back thousands of years beyond that. You know, the written version is like at least 3,500 years old. And the oral tradition goes back thousands of years beyond that. So I learned a lot about, you know, Christian Consciousness and the Making of This. And this show is about a particularly dark chapter in the history of the movement in the 70s and 80s that I don't think is representative of the movement like today. I think it's a force for good in the world today actually. Yeah I think the principles behind it if you pay attention to the main guru was the older job of Bob. Robapod, yeah. Yeah my friend Duncan loves that guy. [3:01] And what the whole concept behind it sounds beautiful, you know, it's all just love and, you know, relinquishing your possessions and the whole that they have on you and just living this very peaceful, loving life and not just forgiving your enemies but letting them into your home and it's all that sounds great. But all it takes is one psycho. Yeah, one psycho. Well, Prabhupadhi took a risk. I mean, so Prabhupadhi was a guru. So several gurus, Krishna Consciousness gurus, had come over from India to the UK or to the US, you know, in the 1800s even, and then through the first half of the 20th century and had no luck because their timing wasn't right, or they weren't the right person or both. But Prabupod was the right dude at the right time. He showed up in Greenwich Village, New York City in 1965 and started preaching Christian consciousness and it's just like, you know, took off like wildfire. And you know like Alan Ginsburg got down with it. It wasn't maybe a full-scale devotee but like he was hanging out [4:02] with them. And but Prab probably part was already an old dude when he showed up in the US. And so in 1977, he died. So it's 12 years. And by that time, Christian Consciousness, there were like Christian temples all over the country and in the UK because George Harrison had converted. Right? And that was one of his like strokes of brilliance, probably bodice. He like sent a group of devotees to go camp out outside the Apple Records office and just like chant and dance until they basically got a meeting with the Beatles. And he was literally like, let's see if we can make the Beatles, you know, Christianess. And with Harrison, it took, you know, and that song, My Sweet Lord. I mean, that's what it's about. That's about Christian consciousness. Yeah. So but when probably I died in 1977, you know, he hadn't had a lot of time to build up successors. Most of the most of the leaders of the movement were young or most of the members of the movement were young. So he took a risk and I don't think he had a choice. And he appointed 11 of his closest, longest time devotees, all men, to be the gurus that would carry the [5:07] movement forward. And what you could say that it worked in that Christian consciousness is still around as bigger than ever. A few of those, these are dudes, these are like dudes in their 20s, okay? That suddenly are being worshipped as direct conduits to the divine. In other words, treated as gods on earth. And some of them were not spiritually prepared for that. It would be a kind way to put it. And some of them went wrong and one of them, particularly Kyrton Ananda, who's, you know, government name was Keith Ham, went really wrong. Oh, like the term government name. Yeah. Well, that is a thing that they always do right they give them spiritual names. Yeah you were a link-wish year. Yeah your original existence. Yeah take a Christian name. There's a place out here you know I built a comedy club and before I got the spot that I have now on Sixth Street I bought a place called the [6:01] One World Theater and the One World Theater was owned by a cult. And it's a beautiful theater. And I had heard about it from my friend Ron White because I was telling him, I think we should open up a comedy club and he said, you should buy that theater. It was owned by a cult. And I was like, that would be hilarious. Buy a theater that was owned by a cult. And there's a documentary on them called Holy Hell. And it's the same sort of deal. I know that, I know that, yeah. Yeah, so they start off, it seems wonderful in the beginning. Everyone's doing yoga, they're hanging out together, cooking meals together, and dancing, and like, it seems like all cults, it goes sideways. In the beginning, it looks like a wonderful idea like society sucks the way you know The modern world the way it's set up materialism. It's all foolish and in Spiritually vacant there's a way to do this and the way to live and this is the way and everybody joins and then Waco comes along and The cult awareness network starts investigating this guy and so he changes his name for the third time. [7:06] His name is Jaime Gomez. He was a gay porn star and a hip-temperist. So he let a rich life. Yeah, so he was already on a certain path. And then he changed his name again. And he changed his name to, I forget there's two different names one Wish Michelle and I figured what the other one was so he changed his name again moves to Austin and Starts this cult and has his followers build him this theater so he can dance in front of them And that was the place that I bought but it was all fucked up and we wound up getting out of the deal and because There's like a lot of problems and a lot of issues that had to be resolved with the property and they didn't disclose that. So I got out of it and then got this place on six street. But you know, in the process, I really started investigating the cult and I didn't investigate it unfortunately before I signed contracts and I had caught in a call from my friend Adam [8:04] like, hey man, did you watch the documentary on the cult? I was like, oh no Whatever the documentary on the cult. It's generally a cult that went bad right and this one went bad And but it was the same sort of deal. They all got names. They were all given you know spiritual names And they were told that you're reborn. Yeah reborn in this this new Persona well even in the 60s and 70s and they were told that you're reborn. Yeah, reborn in this new persona. Well, even in the 60s and 70s, I don't think it'd be fair to call Krishna consciousness a cult, but the way that this, so this guy here to Ananda, one of the 11 disciples that probably pot a point to carry on the movement, he already had a commune up in the hills of West Virginia. It's still there. It's called Newverendovin because the city of Vendovin in India is the sort of mythical birthplace of the Vietnam. That compound is still there. Still there. Yeah, but it's not a cult. It's not a cult. And it's like, right, and I've been there twice. And like today again, it's like, it's a really like positive place with a great spiritual vibe. But when K like some really dark shit went on deck. How did they turn it around? Well, it finally, his followers turned on him. [9:09] And Iscon, which is the international society for Christian consciousness, which is the formal name for the Hare Krishna, this is what we call the Hare Krishna's. They actually kicked the new Vandavana of the movement for a few years, half a decade or so. And then, like like kind of gradually brought that compound that communist not compound that commune back in but they had this fucking temple there the palace of gold the probably the palace of gold that they were originally building for probably probably to live in then he died before it was completed. But it's like this Taj Mahal-esque structure that's in the middle of nowhere in the hills of West Virginia. I mean, it's like a couple hours from Pittsburgh, basically, and up in the mountains. And so, God, that's beautiful. [10:01] Look at the images. And these are unt untrained You know disciples Making this just based on like ancient texts that they study They just figured out how to do all this partisanship. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, it really is. It's worth visiting for sure It's a it's my it's mind blowing. Oh, there's a big box of cash and so yeah is a big box of cash. And so, yeah. Yeah. And so, but this place, I mean, even now it's like it's, it's, it's, it's, well, for sure in the 60s, for sure in the 70s, it was cut off from the rest of the world. I mean, these young kids would join the Harry Christian movement. And basically a lot of the fuck ups in the movement would get sent to Kyrton and Nanda at Newverin-Dauvin because he'd put him to work building the temple. Right? So if you like join and you were like, you know, not fitting in for some reason, a lot of times they'd buy you one-way bus ticket to like Morgan Downer, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and you'd lined up up there, you know, in the hills under Kyrton Nanda's tutelage, right? [11:02] Which is delicious. And that it went sideways in a hurry, especially after Prabhupada died. He was already running Newverendobin, like Prabhupada had visited it and approved of it. And actually, Kirtananda had gotten booted out of the Krishna movement because he kind of tried to take it over. And at a certain point, like Prabhupada kicked him out and Keith Amm, Kierten and Nanda, like mind-fuck this local sort of like philosopher dude that owned the land in the signing it over, promising to be like a non-denominational spiritual movement that that's what he was doing. And as the guy put it, we interviewed his daughter and he said, you know, as soon as the lease was signed, they put on bedsheets and started chanting, right? And so now you got the higher your Christian as your neighbors. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's the documentary is really well done. Thanks. It's like, just like Sasquatch. I mean, you do some awesome stuff, but it's so fascinating to watch these alternative sort of movements get co-opted and [12:08] how that can happen by the wrong sort of charismatic psycho. Right. And that's this... How do you say his name? Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. It's tricky, man. Dealing with all these Christian names that making this Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. Kirtananda. filmed in Vrindavan in India. That's how the project, that's how I started the project. Like I had signed on to the director gig and like two weeks later I was in India. What was that like? Hey, Jamie, can we get the coffee in here? Well, one thing about Vrindavan India is the fucking monkeys, okay? They're these monkeys that will steal your shit. And it's a whole racket, right? [13:01] The monkeys will have something back yeah and of course we're like we're like knocking around with bags full of lenses and camera gear and audio gear and stuff and so we're a target rich you know posity for these monkeys but they'll get your sunglasses your phone whatever if you're not careful and then they like sort of skitter up a drain pipe or a tree and you got to buy these like frozen mango packs from the street vendors and like throw them up to the monkeys and the monkeys will drop your ship back down to you. I'm convinced that the street vendors are in on it, right? That's like this. Yeah. Yeah. So they probably are. Yeah. Well, it's the very least that it's so strange that the monkeys know that you can barter. Yeah. They learned. Yeah. You can make a deal. Yeah. The legend is is that hundreds of years ago this guy that was like He brought a circus to Vindavan and the monkeys came with him and they were trained to be pickpockets And then they just kind of stayed behind but I don't know if that's true or not But that's the local legend is that but there's there's hundreds of them thousands of them Man, I mean they're everywhere and you got to watch you got to be constantly have your head on swivel because they are so quick and what do they [14:06] Live off what do they live off of? Do they just live off of what the people give them? I don't know. They probably scavenge, but also like they do get a lot of, like, you know, mango treats from Stanley's shit. Because the Balaram Mon-Dier, which is like the head, Hari Krishna temple is in Vrindavan India. And so devotees from all over the world go there like as spiritual tourists, basically. And so, you know, the monkey still shit from them, or any other, you know, there's a lot of Krishna devotees from all over India too, that aren't necessarily, quote, unquote, harry christmas, but like follow the Hindu deity, Krishna. So they come to, it's like a, you know, there's a lot of spiritual pilgrims to this city, all right? There's a lot of spiritual tourism there and so the monkeys have a lot of targets and so when they steal your stuff You have to throw it to them you got to buy something and then throw it up to them They and then they will relinquish it sometimes they'll be like no, nope that's that's a cell phone That's a three-mango pack deal dude. You got it. They won't you know, they'll be like oh thanks and [15:05] They'll like go like they're gonna drop it to they'll be like, oh thanks. And they'll like, they're gonna drop it too. They'll be like, oh, how about I drop it in the sewer? Oh, you don't want that? Mango pack. So they can point the mangoes? Yes. Yes. Wow. So eventually you throw them enough treats and they're, and they use these kids too, that if they see that a monkey is stolen something. They'll come over and they'll be like for a few root, basically it's like for a few rupees, I'll handle this deal for you. And then they, they climb up the tree or the drain pipe and they do a direct hand to hand exchange. So we learn the hard way. That's, that's the thing to do. If the monkey steals the, whatever, hire the kid, he goes and brokers the deal with the mango juice guy, you know, and makes it all happen for you. So do other monkeys realize this is happening and try to steal the mangoes before you give it to them? Oh yeah, it's brutal. But they also cooperate too. They'll run distraction operations. Like one monkey will come out here from an angle and kind of like bluff charge. And then you're paying attention to that one and then boom, the other one grabs your sunglasses off your head. [16:02] Wow. Yeah. But grabs your sunglasses off your head. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But we were there to film. There's this ceremony. These two brothers whose father, his name was Chakadari, his Christian name, his government name was Charles St. Dennis. There's nothing known as Chaka in the movement. And his sons were doing this really ancient ritual to sort of release the soul of someone who's been murdered. And so they had their father's ashes, which he was murdered, you know, decades ago at Newverendobin, by on orders from Kyrton and Nanda, because he was challenging Kyrton on his authority. So Kyrton and Nanda hadzenandah had people murdered? Yeah. More than one? Yeah. I think there's probably quite a few bodies. Up in the hills on the mountain. People just don't know about it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. One of the principal sources for the documentary is a guy who's a retired homicide cop named Thomas Westfall who was just a local cop in West Virginia [17:05] when the Christian set up shop at the New Vendorban commune. And so he started keeping a close eye on him early and sort of saw Kierta Nanda's rise to power. And he believes that there's at least a handful more victims up there. His body's having been found. Because it's really remote country. I mean I want stress that it's really cold in the winter. There's a lot of snow. You know, into this day it's sort of, it's a difficult place to get to. And so this guy when he first started running this temple, this area, when did it go, how long did it take for went sideways? Well I think it was, the question with Kiritinanda or Keith Ham. As always, was he bent before he became a Krishna or was it like, did the power get to him? I think it's both. I think he had a psychological disposition towards being a despot, if you will. [18:03] Then once Poverty was was in Kirtananda, along with 10 of his compatriots, was appointed a guru, you know, and had that sort of power. I think at that point, it's in combined with like all the money. I mean, he was, he was, he had this guy that was a, he was in, Kirtananda was a genius at running schemes and scams to make money. He would dispatch like the hottest young female Krishna devotees to like stock car races and rock concerts and stuff to like raise money for whatever they just make it up. The starving children of India or they just make up charities and they'd flirt with dudes, you know, especially at rock concerts, guys that are like, hi, and get them to give them cash. A dollar here, five bucks here, ten bucks there, they'd work at airports too, but, um, and they just brought in literally like garbage bags full of cash, you know, every week. Wow. And they, and he trained them to deposit it in $9,900 increments. [19:04] So it doesn't show? To avoid the reporting. Right. them to deposit it in $9,900 increments. So it doesn't show? To avoid the reporting. Right. Yeah. Wow. So he was, he looks crazy. That's what's interesting. Isn't it interesting that like crazy people look crazy and I always try to say, okay, is this because you know he's crazy? Or do you see something? It's hard to tell. But he doesn't seem enlightened. Like, you look at him. He looks like a guy who's a little unhinged. And I've met people like that unhinged. And I've met people like that in the psychedelics movement. And there's a few of these movements that are so open. And basically anybody can become a part of it. You know, the concept behind it is, behind it is we're all seeking enlightenment, but then you'll see someone gets in there and you're like, what is this guy's a schizophrenic or something? There's something going on here. Especially you look at photos of Kyrton and Anda over the decades. You just get more and more and more a demented look. [20:02] Right. And that has to probably be the power. Right. And that has to probably be the power. Right. The Washington's feet and worshiping. Yeah, he was molesting kids there. Yeah. Well, he was a total pedophile. Right. Six fuck. That started that he was always a pedophile? I think pedophiles are always pedophiles. But again, once he had access, as the movement went on, more and more Krishna couples had kids. He had access to more and more and more children up there in those hills. Right. And that was one of the things that you highlight is that it wasn't just about releasing the possessions. It was also like not having control of your children either. Yeah. Yeah. Although I think they, especially at Newfoundolphin at the place that Kierta Nanda ran, they kind of took that belief, that yes, children are a material attachment, right? But he took it to an extreme and just basically just cut off, you know, kids from their parents, like entirely. [21:02] And that was not unique to Newfoundolphin that happened in a lot of temples around the country in the US, but it's kind of- Isn't the pedophilia happened in the US as well? It did, it did. But I will say, again, to Iscon's credit that unlike the Catholic Church, once the evidence started to emerge that there had been, I think it's fair to say, systemic, you know, raping of kids at their religious facilities. They address the issue head on. And for the most part, I think I've done an excellent job of, you know, weeding out the petos. And what happened to the kids? Because it's not just that it seems like it wasn't isolated. It was all the kids. At New York, you know, Evan? Yeah, I mean, this is what you're kind of... Mostly boys, I think. Mostly boys. Yeah. They have communities online, and there's a lot of bitterness. It varies. It varies. You can't totally generalize. But the kids that grew up in Newfound Daven, they have online communities, where there's [22:03] a lot of obvious reasons like resentment and bitterness and anger. Still at the leadership of the Harry Christian movement for not in their opinion, fully atoning for the sins that occurred there. What could they do? There were some lawsuits or some settlements, but I mean, you know, not only do they do. Well, there was a settlement, there were some lawsuits, there were some settlements, but I mean, you know, you might only be there. No, no, no, no, no, it doesn't fix anything. It's acknowledge is it something happened, but you're ruining a child for life. Yeah. Yeah. And you're doing it in the most evil way because you're supposed to be a part of this peace and love movement that's like the optimal way to live life. Right. Yeah. Well, and that's why this guy, Charles St. Dennis, Chaka was murdered. Is he, he was calling out Kyrton Nondo for his hypocrisy. Now, I don't know if he called him out for the, you know, raping kids, but like Kyrton Nondo was having like gay sexual relationships [23:02] with some, with some laborers that had been hired to come help build a temple that weren't necessarily devotees. And it was like an open secret in the commune. And he called him out for it and also called him out for the materialism for driving around an olymazine, for having like, they would buy him a new fancy SUV every year or whatever. And Charles St. Dennis called him on his bullshit publicly and that's what got him killed. Wow. Yeah. Fuck, man. It's I know quite a few people that grew up in cults. You know, in stand-up comedy, you deal with a lot of like lost people, like wayward folks that just didn't fit in anywhere in society. And a couple of my friends, one of my good friends grew up at Jehovah's Witness and You know, it's just you you live in this world that is this very strange sort of I Mean it just doesn't make any sense. It's a logical. It's crazy [24:04] It doesn't fit it. And once you start questioning things, you find like you're not allowed to. And it's just very bizarre how many of these, like how's how in a conversation with Mark Andreessen, you know, the venture capitalist guy? And he was like, California still has a lot of active cults right now. I was like, really? He goes, oh, yeah, there's a lot. So like, there's ones you don't hear about, where they kind of keep it together. So I guess there's like, calls have to go completely like, holy hell sideways before you get a documentary. Right. Some of them, they figure out how to kind of keep everybody together. It's probably harder to keep shit under wraps these days. Didn't it was for a kid to Menondo in the 70s and 80s? What's the internet? Yeah, for sure. Everybody's got a phone and no. Yeah. It's also like people are much more aware of what a cult is now. I bet in the 1960s, it just seemed like a beautiful alternative to, you know, I mean, you're dealing with the civil rights movement, Jim Crow, anti-war movement, [25:01] Vietnam is happening, you've got Richard Nixon's, the president, there's all this chaos. They don't, people don't want the world that's in front of them right now, and they're searching for some alternative, and it comes along. What about love? What about this? Yeah, that's what I want. And then, in next thing, you know, you're wrapped up in this thing. Yeah. You know, I, talking about the pedophilia stuff, it's gonna take this on a D-tour, because there's something I wanted to say last time as on your show, which is that I am convinced that you saved at least one kid's life with something that you said the last time I was on, which is that we were talking about my own experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual assault. And you told a story about how, when you were a kid, you were in a library and this like sick fuck pedophile guy like was trying to get you out of the library. Yeah. And a librarian stepped in and basically saved you from this guy. Do I have that? Do I have that guy? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. The reason that I think you saved at least one kid's life is this because and again speaking from first and [26:00] experience as a male survivor, especially of childhood sexual assault, you think like, how could I have let that happen to me? Why didn't I defend myself? Why didn't I fight the guy off? Even though intellectually you look at a 7, 8, 9-year-old boy, you're like, you got no chance against a grown man. But for Joe Rogan to say like a librarian saved me from this happening to me, right? You're a tough guy, okay? You perceive as a tough guy. I think rightly so now Right now seven or eight or however right right, but but but I hope I'm articulating my point Which is that you know guys yeah, yeah, yeah and and and for a guy that's like suffering that and thinking like, whiting, it just helps when somebody in a position like yourself says, hey, could it happen to me? Easily. It almost did. I mean, I was on my way out the door. Yeah, it could have, if that librarian hadn't called out my name, I think about that all the time. [27:03] What would have happened to me? Who I would have become, you know? It's one of the darkest forces in the world. Like this, and I don't understand why it's so prevalent. And I think, you know, I've equated it to vampires that it seems like one of the things that happens to some of the people that get molested is they wind up doing it to others. Yeah. And that is a harsh truth. I mean, I try and do what I can to dispel the the stereotype because you know, that was one of the things that you know, scared the shit out of me when I was a teenager is the idea that I was going to become a pedophile myself. Right. Right. But yeah, it's unfortunate. So, you know, it's that hurt people, hurt people. Yes. Right. But there's truth behind it. It is with violence. It is with everything. With someone's help. It's an pedophilia, which let's just call it what is raping kids is just an incredibly destructive force in our culture and in all cultures. [28:07] And I just like it's the one kind of criminal I think that I just have absolutely no sympathy for. No, or do I? No. No. Most people feel the same way. I mean, when you talk about like one of my daughters is very much against the death penalty and I think for a good reason. And because we've had conversations about people that are on justly accused and she knows that I've had many people on my podcast that spent a long time in jail for crimes that they didn't commit and some of them were on death row and they could have been executed. And when we were talking about it, we said in a perfect scenario when you absolutely know that the law has got the right person and that this person has done something and then they have killed people whether it's a serial killer or whatever it is. Yeah, maybe the death penalty makes sense, but we don't have a perfect legal system. But and then the subject of child molesters came up and they were like, oh no, kill them [29:01] all. Everybody's, you know, it's almost like- It's an instinctual reaction. Yeah, it's an, especially my wife, mothers, you know, they hear that and it's just like, that's the one, like you have to kill them. Does they never fucking stop? No, they don't, they never stop. It's a weird sickness. It's a, it's a, it's just so strange that it's not a very, very rare, uncommon thing, that exists in a handful of places in the world occasionally. But then when you hear about something like the Catholic church, there was Pope Benedict when he got kicked out. There was a lot of people that didn't understand what was going on and I was looking into it and you find out what that guy did and one of the things that he did that's so evil is he would move people. So he would take a priest that was molesting kids and just move him to another unsuspecting place and he went went on to molest, one of these guys that they caught, [30:07] went on to molest 100 deaf kids, at least 100 that they're aware of. And he knew that this guy was a pedophile. And the Catholic church in particular, is just like, I went to Catholic school and nothing happened to me. But things did happen to people that I know that did go to Catholic school It's just like is there another religion that is more connected like when you hear the term Catholic priest right Patophile is right like if you if you were playing a game like Catholic please pet of hot You know like you would say that, you know, if you're, what is that charades? What's that game? When you know, like you say, you know, tough, big, runs fast, football player, yes. You know, like you would say Catholic priest, Pettifile. Like you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's an open secret think a lot of the priests were probably drawn to the church for the [31:05] access to kids. I mean, in Kyrgyzstananda and Yurvindavin built himself a little pedophile heaven up there, you know, once he had the power. So how did they, did you talk to anybody from there that kind of reformed that place? Like how did they, once they got rid of him? Well, first of all, he finally went to prison for murder, for, you know, murder for hire, basically, along with racketeering and like, he was selling like counterfeit, you know, football hats and shit. Is he still in jail? No, he's dead. He's dead. But he still has like within, not within is con, but within the larger sort of Christian consciousness movement. He still has um... he still has a falling and i went i went to his tomb that's in vandabh and india and uh... i had you know like a translator kind of fixer with me i had one camera guy and we sort of bullsh** our way in and it was this creepy fucking place man it was [32:01] like this um... these sort of like almost soviet block looking apartment. There's all half finished. Like there was his tomb and there were flowers and incense and photos of him and stuff. And it's basically after he got out of prison, eventually as an old man. And he went to India and Pakistan and like drew a following of like Pakistani and boys basically that are now men in their 20s and 30s and they occupy this sort of compound around his tomb and The one that we sort of both shared away past was starting to get like little suspicious of what we were doing and of our story Which is like that we were just tourists basically that had sort of wondered by this place and were interested by it. And all these dudes just started coming out of these, they looked like vacant buildings, but they clearly weren't. All these like follows are cured to none, and the translators like it's time to go now. Time to go now. Time to go now. Time to go now. And so, you know, we boogie it out of there. Wow. Yeah. [33:05] But he still has like followers and frankly, even within Iscon, he still has sort of quiet supporters. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. In Holy Hell, they talk about this guy that they kicked out. He's still on the loose and they flew him to Hawaii. And he started to call them Hawaii. And in the documentary, they show him in Hawaii with And he started to call them Hawaii. And in the documentary they show him in Hawaii with his devotees, just taking him around, opening the door for him, the whole deal. It's so strange that cult things so bizarre because it's so common. And it just seems like there's so many people that want to be led by someone who has the answers. Because most people are like you and I, they're like, try to do our best, live our life, fuck up, make mistakes, try to figure out what makes you happy, like, what's this all about? What is life? What are we doing here? And for some, when someone comes along, [34:02] says, I have the answers. He's like, oh, this guy's got the answers. I need the fucking answers. Like, one of the answers. And I will say, I spent a lot of time with Harry Krishnan, who was Christian of Consciousness, devotees, and making that show. And generally speaking, they are positive, peaceful souls. They seem at peace with their place in the world. In a way that I frankly found sort of compelling and attractive, you know, so it's easy to see and maybe they do have the answers. Maybe this ancient like spiritual tradition is at least part of the answer. Well, it certainly can be an answer for some people if you are of the right mindset and if you're truly trying to be on that path, but the problem is it's so easy to be subverted. It's like someone can come along and slowly kind of take over and twist it. True with any religion. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at televangelists. Right. [35:03] Right. I mean, there's real Christians out there that are really great, wonderful people that want to live by the teachings of Christ and live a better, more just and holy life. And they really do want to live like that. And then there's psychos who want private jets and a giant arena to have all their followers and they want mansions. Yeah, those guys are real and they thrive they're everywhere. Well one of Kyrton and Anders enforcer and hit man was this guy named Thomas Drescher whose Christian name was Tirta and he like drove the bus. There was a school bus that wasn't it wasn't driving kids around but they bought a school bus to kind of take people from one part of the commune to another, whatever. But really why he was there. And he was one of the dudes that joined the, he was in Vietnam, Vietnam combat that. I think he saw hardcore combat in Vietnam, came back bent in the head, [36:01] was trying to find the answers, trying to find help probably for PTSD. Found the Harry Christian's join, but the first temple or two that he was at, they were like, something a little off about this guy. So, send him to Kirtananda. Kirtananda met this dude and was like, oh, I got a purpose for you brother. You know, you're now in force for number one. And so, if you fucked up, if like you weren't supposed to have a television. Or if you broke the rules, you defied Kiertenand in any way. If you got some money from your family, you didn't kick it to him. Tier-Took came and paid you a visit. Okay. And when Kiertenand started whacking dudes, basically it was Tier-Took that did it. You know, he just shoots you. And yeah, he was smart. He buried Charleston, Dennis's body. He diverted a little creek And by damming it up and then buried the body and then took away the dam So the whole so that the the the the homicide cop Thomas Westfall He was like I was looking for that body everywhere and never thought to look under the the little river, you know [37:01] Did they bring cadaver dogs to try to search for it? I don't think they brought dogs. Eventually, what happened was, and the reason that Kiritinana, why they finally got him, is that Tirta flipped on him. Now, they arrested Tirta Thomas Dresher for murder, because there was another devotee that got killed in Los Angeles that was also sort of outing Kiritinana and his corruption and whatnot. And so they got Dresher and once he was in prison, like Kyrton Ananda held the ceremony and like appointed him to this like high status within Krishna consciousness. And of course that was like a way to try and keep him quiet, right? And he remained a believer. But then there was this incident known as the Winnebago incident where Kyrton Ananda, there was this, was writing in the Winnebago incident where Kyrton and Nandar there was this, was writing in a Winnebago with this like, I think it was a little boy from like Pakistan or India. And like, Kirtin's jostled open and he was seen in full view by multiple witnesses like, sawtomizing this kid. And like too many people saw it to cover it up, right? And [38:02] word got to Thomas Dresher in prison that this had happened. And he heard from enough people who he trusted and believed that this was true, that he immediately flipped on Kiersten and Nanda and said like, yeah, he paid me and ordered me to kill these guys and here's where you can find the bus. So he didn't know that he didn't believe it. He didn't believe it. He was a true believer. He didn't want to believe it. So it was only when he was, you know, he didn't firsthand witness it himself, but it's only when he was faced with like multiple people who he trusted, who were telling him, we saw this. It's true. You know, and then to his credit, I think he immediately flipped. We tried to do an interview with him, but we couldn't get in the prison to get him to go on camera. So we do in the show, we do have audio interview, excerpts, with Drusher. Wow. One of the saddest things about Holy Hell is they talked to some of the devotees that had left and now they're lost because they had essentially [39:10] They they had left 20 years of their life With this guy and and now here they were 50 and like this one lady was like a dog walker now Right should just kind of lost no real purpose in life didn't you know her whole thing was Bullshit yeah her whole thing was bullshit. Yeah. Her whole life was bullshit. Yeah. And some of the kids that grew up at Newfound Island under Kyrton and Honda when it was it was legitimately occult by any definition. You know some of them are still followers of Christian consciousness. Some of them you know have left it way behind. Right. Yeah. And have nothing good to say about that. But some of them are still like followers of probably pod's teachings. And they believe that Kirtananda was an aberration. I think that's probably right. I think that's probably right too. Yeah. I mean, my friend who's really into the heart of Christmas, he's a very peaceful guy and the way he looks at it is like, you know, this is, this is a way to live. This is a possible way to live for some people that if done correctly [40:07] and done with the right spirit and the right mindset, like really can be a beautiful blissful way of existing. Right. And I just like, not only like, I buy into the idea of karma reincarnation. That reads this true. That feels true to me. In reincarnation? Yeah. this true that feels true to me and reincarnation yeah yeah really what what reads is true apart reads is true well then we get into DMT right all right I tried DMT one thing it was in 2013 and I'm a one and done DMT guy. Don't need to do it again. Okay. So here's my DMT story. As it, in 1999, I was super in the rave scene. And I was in London at this three day rave called the warp. And it was the kind of party where it was like, someone asked me the time, you'd be like, it's 9.30 and they'd be like, [41:00] AM or PM, You know? And it was great party, right? Three days near the tower of London, literally underground, an underground party, literally underground. They had DJ rooms and dance rooms. But they also had these live performance rooms. And I saw this performance artist called the Technopagin Octopus Messiah. Okay. And he was describing his DMT experience. And I hadn't heard about DMT. And then, and by the way, his stuff is fantastic. I think he's the, he's come the closest of anybody except Terence McKenna and actually like capturing what the DMT experience is as a writer. Outside his performance, where the rumor is performing, there's this tent that just said deep, deep meditation therapy. And I was like, oh, now I know what that means, right? And I watched people doing DMT and I was like, I was already rolling on three or four hits of MDMA. So I was like, well, not tonight. But if it ever comes my way, I'm gonna do it. I mean, myself will promise that night. I'm not gonna seek this out, but if it ever comes my way. And then it did And in 2014, I just went to see a buddy mine in Brooklyn. [42:07] I was working on a documentary out there and he was like, you wanna try this. I was like, okay, before I change my mind, let's do this. And 15 minutes later, I believed in reincarnation. I believed in Carmen reincarnation. So I'd say, when I felt a lot better about death. Yeah, I felt a lot better about death. Yeah, I felt a lot better about death too after I did it. But with my experience was that I got a short glimpse that's sort of a user manual for the cosmos. And in there was the knowledge that reincarnation is real, that the Buddhists have it right, that after you die, you go to the barto for 49 days your soul is out there You get a chance to kind of like assess the last life you led Before you take another spin on the carousel Learn what you can get rewarded for your good deeds suffer for your sins and then go back and I believe it [43:01] But I also just like it, you know, I just I just like it, it feels true to me in a way that the evangelicals, or fundamentalist Christian idea of like you can just do a bunch of bad shit and then promise yourself to Jesus and have a clean slate. Fuck that, I'm not buying that. You know? But karma and reincarnation, I'm buying it. There's something there. I mean, it's fascinating that that concept has existed for so long. And even the concept of heaven that existed for so long, and angels and souls and all those things. I think we have a very limited ability to grasp reality. And I think that limited ability is biological. It's kind of based upon our primate origins and what we are as a thing, as a biological entity. We only have essentially the tools that we need in order to survive. And those [44:00] tools are the ability to recognize danger and communicate and establish community and purpose and all these different things. But when you have like real breakthrough psychedelic experiences, to me it seems like it's allowing you a vision into all that exists. Not just what you're physically capable of seeing as a human being, but this chemical gateway or whatever it is that psychedelics give you allows you to see that these things, what I got out of it is that everything is connected. Every action, every thought, your thoughts, your life, your words, your deeds, the way you approach things, the way you respond to things, that they're all connected in some very strange way. And the living my life, the more I follow that as thinking that everything is all connected, the more my life has been [45:08] more beautiful. The more my life has been, more rewarding and rich and more pleasing, more filled with love and community. It's something that I kind of need to like remind myself all the time because I think the biological entity has certain like human reward systems that are built into it. Try to acquire resources to try to establish dominance, to try to succeed. There's all these different things that as a human, you know, people who are, they want success, they want all these different things that as a human, you know, people or they want success, they want all these different things. And that those things can kind of, because you could see the physical manifestation of that work, that that can sort of overcome the idea that everything is connected. And [46:03] so that's I think why people cheat on their taxes or insider trade or do all these different things, fuck people over and business deals and they don't think that they're going to experience any negative consequences of it. But I don't think anybody gets away free. Again, that's why I like the idea of Carmen Riencarnier. Yeah. You don't get away with that. There's something to it. And it's again, going back to the Vedas, like the oldest spiritual, you know, organized system of spiritual beliefs known for our species. That's core to it. Well, we have reincarnation. The most complicated organism, we are the most complicated organism that we're currently aware of. In terms of our ability to manipulate our environment, our ability to communicate, our ability to create things. Yeah. But we don't have an operators manual, right? Which is crazy. So we're essentially running on this primate software that was really established. [47:01] It's almost like we have DOS or Windows 95 and we just keep refreshing it. Right. You know, we don't. There's no real new operating system. And it's so filled with flaws. The human operating system is designed to ward off predators and to fight off neighboring tribes and try to avoid starvation and to try to make sure that your genes pass on and that your enemies genes don't. And to, you know, to exist in 2024 and modern Western world with all of our technology and all of our knowledge and all of the information that we have available with this ancient primate software is so problematic. It's so fraught with peril. There's so many things that can go wrong. So many people that go sideways with drug addiction and gambling addiction and sex addiction and this addiction and that addiction and so much chaos and, you know, [48:01] fevery and violence and, you know, and deception and fraud. And there's just so many things that exist that are negative, but are tied to this concept of achieving and getting more which is, you know, this famine-based mentality, this resource acquiring mentality, that really is like the monkey stealing your sunglasses so it can get mangoes. It's really, you know? No, totally agree. And I felt like with DMT, I got like a very short, it was like, I felt like there was this sentient, generally benevolent force out there in the cosmos. It was like, okay, look, I'm gonna give you a lot of information. You're not gonna be able to retain most of it, but you're ready? Here we go. And one of the things that I brought back that I still believe a decade later is that reincarnation is real. That's how it works. Karma is real. That's how it works. What you do in this life affects your next one. And that also gives you the user's guide you're talking about, about how to be a better [49:00] person, how to be a better species. I didn't get a reincarnation vibe. I'm not opposed to the idea of reincarnation, but I got a vibe that there's other things, and there's other dimensions, and there's other experiences. And there's maybe levels of existence in that this existence that we're experiencing right now as human beings is just very strange, confusing, almost like a puzzle that you are on this planet trying to solve and you can get distracted. You can get distracted by all sorts of things in this life. But the things that bring you happiness and love, you have to kind of like sort those out and choose those amongst the different options that the puzzle gives you. You know this podcast, Psychedelic Salon? Yeah, sure. How did that guy on? Lorenzo. Yeah, Lorenzo. Lorenzo Hegrit. He's great. Yeah, he is. I recently got to know him and he asked me to give you a message because I guess two or three months ago you were amusing about whether or not you was still alive because he hadn't posted any new episodes recently. [50:06] Yeah. He is still alive. That's his message. Lorenzo's message. And after he heard that you'd raised that question, he's been posting. Oh, that's great. Yeah, so Lorenzo. Can you connect me to him? Yeah, absolutely. So Lorenzo and I, and the aforementioned Technop an activist Messiah or in the process of collaborating with some AI animation artists on a documentary about the Stone-Date theory. I think it's going to be dope. Have you seen Dennis McKenna's assessment of it? He broke it down on the podcast where he was explaining to me the actual mechanisms mechanisms that would be involved in psilocybin accelerating the human mind and the ability to form language and concepts and creativity and all the different things that the Terrence talked about. But you know, Dennis is like hardcore, like fact-based scientist. [51:01] Right. Yeah. You've had several great guests on there talking about that theory, but I've been like, there's about to be already, it's showing signs, but there's about to be just a glut of AI animation movies, even in documentaries, like I think AI animation is gonna replace recreations, where they hire actors to recreate stuff. We did it in Christmas, right? We re-created murder scenes, using actors and firearms and stuff, prop firearms. But I think, but so I've been approached with, I don't even know how many ideas for like, do AI animation docs. I've just been like, gimmick, gimmick, gimmick, but this one really felt right. Like, AI think that Territz McKenna would have loved the idea of using AI animation to show the evolution of our species as they pick the mushrooms out of the couch and stuff. Also one idea that we're toy and with, I think we'll go forward with now that we've actually, I think we've got the technology actually dialed in, where we built this AI world, this Terrence McKenna AI world, where we can give it ideas and it'll spit back imagery [52:04] to us that feels right, is building some sort of AI avatar of Terrence McKenna AI world where we can give it ideas and it'll spit back imagery to us that feels right is building some sort of like AI avatar of Terence McKenna. So the idea is that the the spine of the documentary Will be anytime where because Lorenzo has incredible archives of Terence McKenna, you know, stuff that nobody else has. Yeah, it is everything and Anytime you're hearing Terence McKma canis voice describing the stone date theory will take people through its step by step you'll be seeing a i animation of what he's describing so here in ternsma canis voice but seeing a i so people don't know what the stone date theory is we should probably explain it to them for people have never heard that before and the concept is that at one point in evolution, there was climate change and that these tropical rainforests had receded into grasslands and that these primates had started experimenting with different food sources by flipping over cow patties and looking for grubs and all these different things. And one of the things that they would do is probably test the mushrooms [53:06] that were growing in the cow patties. And in many places where psilocybin exists, these things are extremely prevalent. Like my friend Duncan, who grew up in Asheville, North Carolina, told me that mushrooms were so prevalent that the local ranchers had, they started putting feed in, with the cattle feed, some sort of anti-fungal thing to keep fungus from growing and cowshit. Because so many kids were going on to the field and picking psilocybin mushrooms. He's like, they were everywhere. They were everywhere. You know, and so that the concept is that low doses of psilocybin increase visual acuity, make people more amorous. So it probably heightened sexual arousal, made people more likely to breed, and made people more curious, probably because of the increase in visual acuity, [54:01] made people better hunters. Better, there's studies that have been done. I forget what the scientist did. It was a hardcore, you know, non-psychedelic scientist who did studies on edge detection with patients. Right. You know these studies? Yeah. And it showed that people under the influence of psilocybin can detect deviants. Like, so if you have two parallel lines and one slightly deviates from parallel, the people on psilocybin can predict it much quicker, can see it much quicker than the people not on psilocybin. Which is fascinating. And you'd be a much better hunter. Much better hunter. And much better at surviving being hunted. And also just be more tuned into things. You're more aware of, I know a lot of people that use sell cyber when they play certain sports. And they think that it's still cyber in low doses. It's like low dose, yeah. Yeah, low doses for playing pool and things like that. You just have a better understanding of what's happening. I, I attest to it, low microdoses for chess. [55:01] Chess, yeah. Yeah. Does it help you really? I think it does. Actually, I can demonstrate that it does, you know, in my game ratings. Really? Absolutely. Interesting. Now, I don't know if I buy the Stone Dave Theory in the same way that I fully buy into, you know, the concept of the bar-toe and reincarnation and all that, but it's sure fucking fun to think about that. Well, doesn't it, I mean, it mimics DMT, like, psilocybin and dimethyl triptamine are very closely related. Yeah. I think when it's broken down, I think I'm going to fuck this up, but I think it's N4-Fariloxy and dimethyl triptamine. It's very close to what dimethyl triptamine is. And we also know that dimethyl triptamine is endogenously produced. It's produced in the human brain. We don't understand why. And that's a Rick Strossman who wrote that book, DMT The Spirit Molecules, talked about that. And they've done a lot of great research at the Cottonwood Research Foundation trying to determine where it's produced, why it's produced. [56:02] They used to think it was just produced by the pineal gland, now they think I believe it's produced by the whole brain. And this thing that these primates were finding was giving them that and giving them more of an understanding of the world around them and expanding the brain. And the other thing about the human, the concept of the Stone- theory is this bizarre fact in the history of humans that in the entire species, like the record of species, one of the biggest mysteries is the doubling of the human brain size over a period of 2 million years. And Mechanis says that that coincides with this exact same time period where the tropical rainforest were receding into grasslands and then they believed that these primates were experimenting on new food sources. So there's all these things that sort of line up with it and it makes it a fascinating idea. But if you think about like if they found out that this thing gives them this feeling and [57:03] they were you know they're repeatedly using it over and over and over again and then they're offspring did it and they're offspring did it. And you're, you know, playing this out over a couple million years, you could see how this would happen. Yeah, also the development language, right? Yes, yes. The glossaleo. Yeah, glossaleo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah. You know, like high doses, like, that's the language center. So like I said, I'm not sure I buy it, but you know, it should be a fun movie to make something happen. Yeah. It's very obvious it's something happened that separated us from all the other primates, like in a radical way. Yeah. We don't look anything like them. Right. We have abilities and we have so many attributes that are far beyond any other primate and it kind of makes sense. And also there's people that can achieve those states without psychedelics, which is fascinating. And I've gone pretty close with some breathing [58:02] exercises and especially breathing exercises in sensory deprivation. You can achieve some definite psychedelic states. I haven't had the full visual effects that are available with DMT, but boy, you definitely get to some bizarre place where if it was a drug, it would be a very popular drug. Back to the Christian's, that's what probably pod was preaching me. And a lot of his early devotees were people that had taken a lot of acid or mescaline, right? And her peyote. And felt like they were getting glimpses of something, but they couldn't understand it. And he's like, let me show you how to get there, right, without the drugs. Right. And what was Prabhupad using to try to get there? Meditation. Yeah. Just deep meditation. Yeah, I think they're chanting, chanting of ancient sacred mantras and meditation. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing that happens with DMT rituals that they play eak arrows. These ancient South American songs that sort of, you know, enhance the experience. Like when you do DMT with Eekero's playing, [59:07] the DMT dances to the sound, and it's very strange to watch. It's a beautiful, bizarre, and you know, it's overwhelming. Like you can't, it's hard to believe that it's really happening while it's happening, and you know, you gotta kind of let go and just like let it happen and experience it. Because you're so blown away by it all, it's hard to just not just go, what the fuck, like every five seconds? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta kind of just take it in and accept it. I tried to get my dad to try DMT. My dad died recently. And about six months ago, I tried to get into try DMT I was like listen you know until I try this dad you know I was like same as you like basically spock like cold logic reason right you know like that's my dad yeah super smart like mathematical genius was my dad and he was like well it sounds [1:00:01] interesting but I guess if you're right I'll find out on my own because I was like this is kind of like the trailer for the movie dad You know, I'll find out on my own. Yeah, interesting. So yeah He he died like two weeks ago while I was in Ukraine. Oh, wow Yeah, what we doing in Ukraine? I was reporting. I was working. I wasn't filming but I was doing some research and I was in a I was in a war zone. I mean with a whole fucking country is a war zone, but I was in a war zone where like communications were Dicey at best and I got a text message from my wife on signal It was like your dad's heart valve is failing rapidly is in the hospital. He's probably got like 48 hours to live and The airspace over Ukraine's closed So there's no way that I could get from where I wasn't Ukraine and Anchorage Alaska to be with him. And so I was just sending like text messages on signal to the nurses that were and they were reading them to him. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was able to record one voice memo like right as he was going because the last sense to go when you're dying as sense of hearing and they they played him like a like a message from me. [1:01:07] Wow. So, but to answer your question, but what was I doing in Ukraine? Looking looking into a possible documentary that there'd be set against the backdrop of the current war, but that would be more about like what is actually the true nature of corruption in Ukraine and what has it been and what was in the 90s You know, yeah, what is it today and like how has the US State Department kind of fucked up again in the same way that we did in Vietnam and every war like Vietnam Afghanistan Iraq by back in the wrong horses, you know, we've never not fucked up. Yeah, there's never been one back in the wrong horses. We've never not fucked up. There's never been one, whether it's Libya or Afghanistan, Iraq. There's not one. We could point to like, we nailed that one. There's not one. There's not one. And when there was so much resistance to the concept that Ukraine was corrupt when we first started backing them, [1:02:03] that was what was fascinating to me. Because it was always talked about how corrupt Ukraine was. It was always talked about. And then all of a sudden, this was a verboten topic. Like, no, Russia is the aggressor and the invader, and Ukraine are their angels. And they're like, wait a minute. This is not reality. Well, it was also that the US government would be like, okay, we would sort of designate who was corrupt and who wasn't. I mean, look, the US went through its own sort of oligarchy, like Robert Barron phase, you know, in the late 1800s. I was like, after we'd been a democracy for 100 years, it's not, unfortunately, it's kind of a step on the evolution of democracy is to have this phase where you're like, you know, things are super corrupt. Like, I spent some time at a orthodox monastery in Ukraine last month and I asked the sort of head of the monastery, like, what would you have to do to get rid of corruption in this country? [1:03:00] He's like, well, I'm a man of God. You know, he's speaking through an interpreter. He's like, I'm a man of God. So I'm not advocating this. But what he could do is you could take, because the main problem you create right now is I understand is the judicial system. They have what they call telephone law, which is basically like before a judge makes a ruling, he gets a phone call telling him which way to rule. I don't choose. the monastery who's like, you can line up every judge and shoot them. And then all the judges, all the like government officials that come to their funerals, shoot them and do that two or three times. And then we might be able to start over. Like she was saying, that's how systemic this is. But Jesus. I mean, man of God's telling you this. Yeah. That's a guy who's like reached the limits. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. But I'll tell you, my time in Ukraine really changed my perspective on that war and I came back a real sort of hawk thinking that we should fully support Ukraine. Really? In the war. Yeah. Why is that? Part of it was just being with the people who the Ukraine, I just like the Ukrainians, [1:04:03] you know, in a way that I've been to other former Soviet block countries and it's kinda like, I won't name any of them, but I just feel like, I'm not sure you guys are really down with the freedom and democracy thing, you know? It seems like you've been subjugated for a while and you just didn't get the same vibe. I think that Ukrainians are legitimately freedom-loving people. Okay? That have been like under the thumb of corrupt leadership for decades now. But to just part of it was, it was something very enthralling about being in a place where everyone was so unified. Like this country under attack being invaded by a hostile force. Now these are the Ukrainians who have stayed behind. Okay? being invaded by a hostile force. Now these are the Ukrainians who have stayed behind. Okay. But there's still a lot of them. I mean, and just that in coming from America where everything is so splintered and divided now and to be in a place where everyone is so on the same page, there is something very attractive about that. [1:05:02] Well, that is what happens when you get invaded. Do you remember what it was like in America after 9-11? Right after 9-11. It was the most united this country has ever been. And it's a horrible thing to say, because it's not what you ever want to happen again to wake everybody up. But it was the thing that was required to make people put American flags on their cars. And it was a horrible tragedy, but in a lot of ways, the reaction to it was very beautiful. There was so many people that were so, I was in New York City, like just a few weeks or a few months after 9-11. Everybody was friendly. It was crazy. It was like everybody was just so blown away by the experience of being attacked and so just shaken out of it and so aware of how fortunate they were to not be one of those people who died and that we are legitimately altogether and that there are forces out there that are evil and that we have to stay united. [1:06:02] And I hate to think that that's what's required to wake people up from this division. But I was wondering, I wonder if maybe the division that we have in this country is because of the fact that we're never attacked. Because of the fact that we only experienced a few of the Pearl Harbor 9-11, there's only a few of these moments we've had to wake up. Yeah. The Aleutian Islands actually in Alaska were attacked and occupied by Japanese forces in World War II. A little known fact, yeah. That was actually American territory. I didn't know that. But, but I mean, we fucking, man, I mean the Ukrainians, they had nuclear weapons and in 1994, the quote unquote west, the US and the UK, basically convinced basically convinced them you know to give up their nukes in exchange for a guarantee that we would help them protect their sovereign territory right yeah yeah that was right after the fall yeah the Soviet Union yeah yeah there's so many factors right there's the NATO encroaching on Russia's territory I mean in 2004, NATO started handing out membership cards like fucking crackerjack prizes. [1:07:09] Putin gets reelected in 2004, 20 years ago. And all of a sudden, all these former Soviet, you know, small territories are now NATO countries. Yeah. You want to be NATO? Well, great. Now, we're like signed up for a mutual defense treaty with Lithuania. Right. You know, nothing against Lithuanians, but fuck man, you know, this is getting serious. It's very serious. What happens if he invades a NATO country? Like what are we going to do? Right. You know, because China is watching and I'll tell you, you know, I've been like, under fire would be over dramatic, but I've had quite a few Iranian fucking Shahid drones launched in my General direction recently it gives you another perspective on like, you know Russia support for Iran and vice versa I know like mutual enemy of ours like those are Iranian fucking drones being shot at us and [1:08:04] I don't know you know Russia recently had Hamas, like, had a delegation from Hamas, visit the Kremlin. I mean, the fuck, man. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, you know, this is a fucking sketchy time. It really is. I mean, it's it's to, you know, to say like, oh, like World War Three is eminent. It sounds doom-sare, but it feels like it could go that way. In a hurry. China, you know, they're looking at us. That's the problem if we sort of like show the rass and back down, you know, if Putin keeps going, is then China may just test that red line, right? What's high want? Yeah, well, I think they're preparing for that. Yeah. At least when I've talked to people that understand. You know, I just, I mean I think that the war in Ukraine could have been prevented. I think that there was this false dichotomy where there were forces in the US government. And this is part of the documentary I want to make is about that forced you, there was like you either have to be, [1:09:05] you know, a puppet of Russia or our puppet. You have to either have to be NATO or going, there's no middle ground. When, in fact, I think that Ukraine could have been a bridge, a peaceful bridge between Russia and the quote unquote West, where maybe it could have joined the European Union economically free trade but not join NATO, right? Because that's what Putin was so adamant against. And you understand, I mean, I think he's a war criminal fucking power mad, you know, asshole, right? But you can sort of see from his perspective, if you look at a map and you start to see all these NATO countries around Russia, you kind of see, you know, what motivates him. Well, that's the people in the State Department had always said that was his red line. His red line was Ukraine. Yeah. Yeah. And then when they're trying to get Ukraine to join NATO, it's like, what are we doing? Right. What are we doing? We bring it about World War III and why and how much money is being spent and where is [1:10:01] that money going? Right. Yeah. And who's got a vested interest in keeping that money flowing? Yeah. That's where it gets scary. Right. That's what I'm looking into. And I don't want to tip my hand too much. But I think I've got pretty convincing evidence that the US Department of Justice has been used by the US State Department to further US foreign policy interests in Ukraine in ways that aren't really right. Like, bringing, either bringing criminal charges against people in the US, but like Ukrainians, like charging them with crimes in the US, including some people that have never even set foot in the United States, charging with crimes or getting them out of trouble, like dropping criminal charges against them to sort of like, and again it goes back to like our designating, you're a good guy, you're a bad guy. You know, you're corrupt, you're not. You're both just grabbing, you know, billions with both hands. So it's so fucking scary time, man. It really is. It's wild to me that Zelensky is the president too. [1:11:02] You have essentially a comedian who played president on television show. And they're like, we like you. If they held an election today, he would not, he would not be elected. No. No. But then they support him. It's interesting. It's like you asked them to you support the president. They say, yes, like we're at war. Would you vote for him? No. What was their opposition? I think they mismanaging the war, you know, and also I think they suspect that he's corrupt. Yeah. And I think he probably is. But that doesn't, but the fact that, look, the fact that 50 cents of every dollar that we send there, you know, this isn't actually how it goes down, but even if that was the case, is going into somebody's pocket doesn't mean that we can just turn Ukraine over to Russia, in my opinion. I think that we should be backing them full on militarily, not with US troops, but giving them what they need to fight because, you know, I talked a lot of special forces guys over there. They're like basically like those Russian human waves of tax were just like moan these [1:12:04] guys. like those Russian human waves of tax were just like mowing these guys, not even really combat. We're just mowing these guys down until we run out of bullets and then we have to retreat. You know, those are the battles. That's what Putin's able to do because he's got so many guys. And he's also letting people out of jail. Yeah. Yeah. Letting people out of jail and giving them you serve and your time is, yeah, your sentences are send it. Well, also people think of Russia and they think of Moscow and St. Petersburg, but you look at that country on a map, it's fucking massive. There's so much territory east of the Ural Mountains. It's just a bunch of villages, what we call flyover country, right? Well, Putin is offering deals like sign up, where it's like more money than they make in a year per month, A, and then B, if you're killed, your family's set up for life. They can buy a house, you know, whatever. Yeah. So very attractive offers for these really poor people from rural Russia. And then they're using them as just human-cannon fodder. 100%. 100%. Whew. It's just, I just can't remember a time in my life where things had just seemed so unhinged. [1:13:07] No, no, I asked my parents about that too, and I'm, my dad, before he passed, they were like, no, we don't remember even like water gate, Vietnam, you know, they weren't really old enough to remember the Great Depression, but even that was just sort of limited to the US. I mean, I know they're global, you know, effects of that, ricochets of that, but yeah, it feels like it could, like it could go sideways on us in a hurry. Yeah, it does. And then what does that look like? That's what's terrifying. What's terrifying is if you're willing to do, like let's say what Israel's doing in Gaza, if you're willing to almost eliminate a city, just bomb the fuck out of a city and kill who knows how many innocents, what are the numbers? It's 30,000, I don't know what the numbers are. [1:14:02] What's the line that keeps you from dropping a nuke that kills 300,000? What's the line? When, you know, why do we have this idea that it won't accelerate to that when it has in the past? It's just because it only did once. In Japan in 1945, is that what it is? I agree with, I mean, I agree with your assessment that danger 100%. That's another reason why I think that we have to help Ukraine stop Putin now because if he keeps going into Ukraine and then he invades a NATO country and we decide that we've got to go up against him. Is there any evidence that he would do that that he would invade a NATO country? I don't think he'll stop. You don't... I think, dude, he's been in power for a long time for a leader of Russia. I think that he... I mean, I watched that Tucker Carlson interview, right? Yeah. And that history lesson that he delivered at the beginning, everyone was like, what the fuck is he talking about? And Tucker just looked baffled. I got it. I thought I actually thought I'm getting an insight into Putin's motivations and the way [1:15:05] that he sees himself, which is a historic figure. He sees himself as someone who's going to restore a Russian empire. He like spends all day in the halls of the Kremlin with like, you know, portraits of Ivan the terrible and Catherine the great, right? And I think that he's seeing himself as not the leader of a, you know, a free country, certainly, but as someone who's going to restore a Russian empire. So no, I absolutely do not think he will stop with Ukraine. No way. So then if he doesn't, and then he invades a NATO country, and we go up against him, man, those documents leaked recently from Russia that were showing what their lines were for when they would start using quote, quote, tactical nukes. And, you know, I think he'd do it. I think he'd do it. I don't think he will. What are the lines? Well, they were, they were whatever. If they started to lose a certain percentage of troops, I can't recall the specifics, but they were like shockingly, um, shockingly, uh, liberal on when they would start to use tactical nukes on the battlefield in Europe. [1:16:09] Like if they started to have certain percentages of battlefield losses, we're not in the current situation, but as they go further into Ukraine or an war that came into Russian territory. So I just think we should stop this shit now. This shit being Putin. Is it possible? I think it is possible. I think it's possible to essentially let him have... What's his name? Criteria for a potential Nuka response range from an enemy incursion on Russian territory to more specific triggers such as destruction of 20% of Russia's strategic ballistic missile submarines. This is the first time we've seen documents like this reported in the public domain said Alexander G-b- how to say that? G-b- wave? Your guess is a good one. Director of Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center in Berlin. They show that the operational threshold for using nuclear weapons is pretty low if the desire result [1:17:04] can't be achieved through conventional means. Russia's tactical nuclear weapons, which can be delivered by land or sea-launched missiles from or from an aircraft, are designed for limited battlefield use in Europe and Asia as opposed to the larger strategic weapons and tended to target U modern tactical warheads can still release significantly more energy than the weapons dropped on Nagasaki in Hiroshima in 1945. Although the files date back 10 years or more, experts claimed they remained relevant to current Russian military doctrine. The documents were shown to the FT by Western sources. Hmm. So to answer your question, I think that, you know, the territory that Putin has taken, you know, and again, also, we like, just like we didn't back him up after the security assurances that we gave, we the US gave Ukraine in 1994. [1:18:02] 2014, right, there was that revolution in Ukraine. And in response, Putin invaded Crimea with the little green man, the guys that didn't have any insignia. And the US State Department went to, and Ukraine was gonna fight. And the US State Department went to Kiev and was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, chill out, chill out, chill out, just let him have Crimea. We'll make sure he stops there. Let's not escalate things. Okay, so we gave him our word a second time, and then we broke it. So to answer your question, I think that that territory that Putin has seized my impression from talking with a lot of Ukrainians in recent weeks has been that that they feel like Ukraine could still be Ukraine without that territory. Like the people, like basically you could have like a three week period where people could either move there If they want to be Russians or they can leave if they want to be Ukrainians and then you could have a kind of a North Korea South Korea DMZ kind of situation. I think that's probably the best possible outcome right now But even to do that again, we've got to properly arm the Ukrainians so they can stop [1:19:04] Putin from moving further into their country and actually taking territory that they could not live without. So do you think ultimately he plans on taking all of Ukraine? Yes, 100%. I think he's 100%. I mean, Harry, he was, it was, when I was in Kiev and I went to how close the fighting actually got to the capital city, it was shocking how close it was. Like that town, Butchah, where there was all those atrocities committed. I mean, there was this one. I saw this one auto, this like massive grave yards of like automobiles. And what happened was people were trying to get out of this town as the Russian troops, the Russian, because they invaded from Belarus, from the north and they came in and they're trying to go like lightning strike on Kiev. And they got within, I think, 10, 12 kilometers of the city. And then they got stopped, because the guys started blowing bridges, special forces started blowing bridges and hitting them with jabs and stuff, and they actually stopped them, like incredibly brave fighting. But there was this one just, like I came across this, [1:20:01] just pile of hundreds of blown up cars. And I asked the locals about it. And some of them have been like painted now with sunflowers and Slavo-Krania, Gloria-Gloria-Ukraine and artists are trying to make this less sort of macabre. But what it was was when the Russians invaded two years ago, like hundreds of families piled in their cars and there was one road out of town, but it was a trap and the Russians cut it off on both sides and then methodically using tanks blew up these cars full of civilians. Just brutal shit. And I know there's just like brutal shit on all sides in all wars, but to see it firsthand like that, to talk to people that saw that happened was it's tough so yeah What is it like going over there like leaving America and going over there to try I mean what was the craziest thing was You just you can just walk in it was like it was like it was like it's harder to go into Tijuana than it is to go to Ukraine [1:21:02] Like you just like I went in through I Tijuana than it is to go to Ukraine. Like you could just, like I went in through, it's, I came, yeah, I came out, yes, that's it. I went in, I came out through Poland, and I went in through Romania. And I just like, yeah. Oh my God. Oh my God. So I flew to Bucharest and then drove about 10 hours to the border and then just like walked across with my duffel bag in the US passport. It's really easy to get in. Just walked across. Yeah, walked right across. It was like five minutes. Did you have it set up already to talk to people? I did. I had set up security. I had really good security. These guys are like special forces guys, a tank hunting team actually that had just rotated off the front after fighting for two years. And we're you know so basically like keeping me alive was a vacation for them. But they were really and I got to be really good friends with this one dude especially the guy that was like because they worked in different [1:22:00] waves. It was a team that like there was one guy that was like attached to my hip. He was just with me 24-7. His name was Andre, and I got to be really good buddies with this guy, just using Google Translate, even when the interpreter wasn't around. Just like, really clicked with this guy. Anyway, but yeah, I did have it set up before I had an interpreter, a driver and security. And then I had conversations that I'd lined up. But a lot of it was people had documents or people had information that the only way I was going to get these documents or that have them tell me this information was to go to Ukraine. That's the only way they were going to trust me. How much different was it than what you expected? Well, it's crazy. I really, back to my new love for the Ukrainian people. In Kiev, like, or Levyv, which is a fantastic city. It's in the eastern Ukraine near the Polish border. You know, it's like you wouldn't, until the rockets and the Iranian, Iranian drones start flying into the city, you wouldn't know anything was going on. [1:23:03] People are out dressed nicely, going to dinner, going to bars, going to clubs, like they're out and about. And then all of a sudden, the air raid sirens go off. And there's this app that I jokingly texted my wife. I was like, this is the worst video game ever, because it's this app that shows you what's incoming, like what kind of missiles, and how many, and what kind of drones, and how many, and then as the air defense system shoot them down, they like blip off the screen, you know? So you can like see like, this shit's coming your way, and like how many of they're shooting down. It's like the worst version of missile command, because you can't actually do anything, right? But yet you're watching it. And real time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God So And this is just an app you can get for your phone. Yeah. Yeah. Well the security guys had it I don't know if anybody has an app on their phone that alerts them when there's incoming missiles or drones Right and they know that that app has not been compromised great How do they know? Great question. I don't know. [1:24:05] Great question. Is this an app that's, is it Windows or Android? You could get it on your phone right now. As a matter of fact, before I went to Ukraine, I downloaded it and installed it. And I thought it'd be geofenced. But it was like the middle of the night in New Mexico and all of a So it's if anybody wants to experience what it's like to be a Ukrainian right now, you can download this app. What is it called? Let's take a look. Is it available for all phone platforms? Yes, anybody can get it. I may have taken it off actually, but I'm sure if you just like Google like Ukrainian, you know, air raid app. Is it taken off? Is your TARDIS being air raids? Yes. Yeah. I didn't want it to sound anymore. So, I mean, you can pick which parts of the country you wanted to alert you to, but yeah. I mean, it was, it was one day where the security guys were like, it's not safe to drive from where we were to keep tomorrow. So, that's the bad news. [1:25:01] Because every night we would have a go-no-go kind of meeting for the next day. And that was the one time that they were like, no go, no go. Too much shit's going on. It's not safe to drive, you know, eight hours to keep. Good news is it's snowing in the Carpathian mountains so we're gonna go skiing. And I was like, what? And so the next day we did, we like drove five hours off at the mountains and there's this full-on ski resort and there's just people like hundreds of families out skiing and There's the fucking war going on and it's in it's like a day of a nationwide raid alert red alert Which means that like missiles were hitting all over and so people are watching this app on their phone And you can see this stuff that's coming you know to to the oblast which is like a state that we're in. And as the stuff is being shot down, like people are like cheering from the chair lifts. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. So I mean, I just like that fucking, fuck you spirit that they have is I think impressive. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. [1:26:01] I have a friend from Israel and he's a kickboxing coach. My friend, Shouki. And when he was living in America, he lives in Israel now. But when he was living in America, I went over his house for dinner and him and his wife, they'd be playing the bongos and dancing and I'm like, you guys are like, you have so much spirit. Like you're so filled with fun. And he's like, my friend, when you live in Israel, he goes, every day, like you could die. Every day is party party. Have a good time. Enjoy your life. And it's like the same kind of thing, unfortunately, like post 9-11. Like you need something horrible to happen for you to appreciate the good and appreciate peace and appreciate joy. Yeah. And that's what's, that's a crazy thought is that the thing that's going to cure what ails us is conflict and getting together and banding together to fight a common evil. [1:27:00] Right. Which is just so bizarre. Or if we had like a war of the world's kind of thing, we're like a hostile like alien race attacked earth. You remember when Ronald Reagan said that to the UN? Yeah, yeah It's like the UFO fanatics favorite speech When Ronald Reagan said if we were faced with a hostile threat from an alien world how quickly we would put aside our Differences. Yeah, it's true. I mean, that's one of the things that astronauts always talk about when they go to the space station. So you look down on the earth and you go, my God, what are we doing? How are we in conflict with each other over lines in the dirt, imaginary lines in the dirt that we create for what? Who's doing this and why are we doing this? We should all be together. We're this one species that can communicate with each other, attach this ball that's hurling through infinity. And yet, our territorial primate instincts have us engaged in this insane conflict that no one thinks is ever going to end. If you asked anyone [1:28:01] today, can you achieve in our lifetime no war? Most people will say that's not possible. Which is so strange. And tragic. Well, it's also so crazy because it's a function of human beings in large numbers, right? Because like if we were in this room together and he said, could you imagine all three of us get along? Of course. Easily. I couldn't imagine it's not getting along. We can talk. We'll figure things out. We have resources. Yeah, it will be fine. Make it three million people. Make it 30 million. Make it 300 million. Now you get problems. Right. And it seems to be always the same thing that you see when you have a cult. You have leaders. And the leaders don't necessarily have the best intentions for everyone. They have the best intentions for themselves and for the people that are providing them with money. And this is the trap that we're all stuck in. [1:29:00] Everyone on earth, all of us, being led by groups that decide that they're in control of these massive numbers of people, and they want control of the resources of these other territories, and they want to do something to those people, and they'll have people convinced this is your enemy, you have to go kill them. People that you've never met, you have no issue with. You don't't know anything about them You've literally never seen them before you might not ever see them even when you're killing them and This is the thing that we don't believe could ever be stopped in our lifetime Which is insane if you if you really start to think about it that way it sounds so insane like if you if you were approached by an alien life form That said what is this source of all this murder and killing and destruction like what is this? It's like oh, we're being led we're a group and we're being led by the the people that are in charge of this group That are very secretive and that are being influenced by massive amounts of money and the military industrial complex and [1:30:04] They've got everyone convinced that you have to divert all of our resources into attacking this other group that is opposed to our way of life. They hate us for our freedom, whatever the fuck it is. And this is what we have to do now. They would be like, what is wrong with you fucking people? Like what a bizarre, wounded, tainted species that you think like this. And not just think like this, but think it's impossible to imagine this not existing. This the most insane venture that human beings can ever engage in. And you think it's impossible for that to not be the case. But almost all logical people, if you ask them, is could you imagine no war in your lifetime? [1:31:05] No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. 90s, I think was like the best. It was like the time of peace and prosperity. Yeah. And it seemed like we could get to Star Trek, right? Like we could maybe get there, right? Even Star Trek. Even the cold word. Yeah, well, you gotta fight somebody. That is that, why? It seems so crazy. I wonder if, I mean this is really weird, but I wonder if that's where AI is leading us. I really genuinely do. I wonder if the limitations of our primate architecture will not allow us to escape this never-ending cycle of war. That maybe the only thing that will would be an intelligence that far exceeds our own and doesn't have the same limitations, motivations, human reward systems, all the things that hold us in these patterns, and that an artificial intelligence that is far [1:32:01] superior to what we're capable of generating with our monkey minds, the only thing that prevents us. Well, back to DMT, I think that intelligence is already out there. We don't have to build it with computers and then you're on earth. And DMT is one conduit to it. Mushrooms or another, medications and other. It's just a willingness to set aside the petty shit, which is also why a lot of people believe those things are illegal. 100%. I mean, if you have everybody realizing that we're all one united, it kind of makes no money in that. Yeah, there's no money in that. Well, maybe the problem is money in general, like the concept of money. You know, and I'm not a proponent of socialism, because socialism always leads to communism, which leads to military dictatorships that are dictating whether or not you can do this or that. And there's always groups of people that have massive resources. And they keep everybody else subjugated. And that's, it's anybody to think that socialism and communism is the future. [1:33:01] They're showing me where it works ever. And still human beings. It's just like whether it's cults or militaries or anything. So there's human beings that have immense power that is unimaginable to the common person, dictating what the common people can and can't do. And the only way to enforce that is with force and with killing. It's the only way with jailing people, killing people, fear. It's the only way, with jailing people, killing people, fear. It's the only way to get people to listen to you and to do what you want them to do. And I wonder if what we're doing with artificial intelligence is creating... I think we're gonna merge. That's what I think is going to happen. I'm sure you've already seen this guy who they, the first neural link patient, have you seen this? Yeah. So this first guy who's paralyzed with neural link, he's now able to use a computer and he can move curses around with his mind and he can play video games with his mind and [1:34:01] he's been doing this and he talks about it and it's like this is incredible. This is amazing. And this is essentially the model T of you know this sort of human computer interface, biological interface, something that goes into your mind, into the brain itself and and connects with it and allows you to use things. I get why that would help a dude like in his situation but do you have any concerns about that like large scale? Of course. with it and allows you to use things. I get why that would help a dude, like in his situation, but do you have any concerns about that, like large scale? Of course. Yeah. My concerns with everything that involves human beings. Because I don't think there's ever been a thing that involves human beings that doesn't get co-opted and corrupted. There's always something, someone comes along that uses it and has power. And that's the scariest thing about someone achieving some sort of artificial general intelligence, some sort of super intelligence, especially something that's sentient and can figure out what we're doing wrong and also figure out what was done wrong to code it [1:35:01] and make a better version of itself. And I think it's gonna lead to a new life form. I'm almost positive of that. That's what all this stuff is doing. It's going to achieve. I mean, have you ever seen the head of Google where he was talking about how their AI has done things that they didn't expect? Like it learned a language, like instantaneous thing that it wasn't programmed in and can translate that language now and communicating that language and they don't know how it did it. Well hey guys, hit the fucking brakes. You don't know what it's doing and you're just gonna keep feeding it. Okay, where do you think that goes? It's gonna be better than us at everything and it's gonna realize that we're the cause of pollution, we're the cause of war, we're the cause of theft and rape and fraud and destruction and control of resources. It's all human beings. Like we are the problem that we're trying to solve. [1:36:00] If we're trying to solve that problem by creating something that won't have those problems, it just logically seems to me that that thing is going to realize that we're the issue Part of me shares that fear part of me feels like a drowning man like you know And maybe a eyes the light preserver. Yeah part of me thinks that it's just gonna be like the metaverse or Google glasses or whatever It's just gonna be like a passing f. But oh, I don't think that. I don't think that at all. I think it's inevitable. I think we are. I've compared us to a caterpillar that we're a caterpillar that's building a cocoon. We don't even know why. Caterpillars, they don't know. I'm going to be coming by for a while. That's going to be awesome. No thirsty for innovation. Why are we so attached to wanting the newest, latest, greatest technology? It almost seems like that motivation is tied into the creation of artificial intelligence. That if you looked at us, I always say that if you looked at us from above, if you were some other species [1:37:00] that came and you were looking at human beings, you would say, well, what does this thing do? Like, what does this species do? Well, the main thing it does, if you, you know, you look at all the, there's all the wonderful things that are the music, all the wonderful things that it does for itself, food and culture and all these interesting things. But what is the species overall do? What creates things and it creates better things, constantly. It's in a cycle of constant innovation. And a lot of that innovation, almost all of it, is tied to technology and artificial intelligence. And so where does that go? Well, that goes to another life form. It creates a thing. It creates an artificially intelligent. And artificial is not a good word either. Because I think it's digital intelligence. I don't think it's artificial intelligence. I think it's a computing based intelligence that's far superior to the biological based intelligence. And so my hope for us, because I am one of us, my hope [1:38:03] is that we merge. My fear is that it supersedes us My my fears that it surpasses us in every way and that it just gives us something that placates us That it controls us. Yeah gives us something Well instead of killing us off all you'd have to do is stop us from breeding That's not hard to do we're kind of doing that to ourselves We mean population level, in terms of like viability, they've dropped substantially over the last few decades. Whether it's because of microplastics in our food that have diminished our reproductive cycles. If you look at the number of births in developing countries, like what happens, how many women are having miscarriages, how many women are infertile, the numbers keep going up and up and up. It seems like there's a current trend because of what we have done with our environment, what we have done with our food supply, what we have done with medicine, [1:39:02] and pharmaceutical drugs that's leading us to be less and less viable. And all you'd have to do is step in and provide human beings with something that gives them incentive to no longer breed. Especially if it makes it very attractive to no longer breed. And keep them entertained. Keep them entertained no longer breed. Provide them with robot sex dolls that are far superior to human beings. You know, someone who really gets them, this really gets them, or you just have a biological woman, he yells at you. I mean, it's, you could clearly see how if you were a super intelligent species, a super intelligent thing that looked at us and said, well, what's the best way other than mass destruction of stopping these things from ruining the world? We'll just stop them from breeding. Just make these the last ones. Just severely limit the amount of reproduction that takes place. [1:40:00] I would do it. That drowning man looking for a life-resistant or a life-resistant, kind of hopes that artificial intelligence or digital intelligence, I like that by the way. Yeah, I think that's what it is. Digital intelligence, you know, that it could be that that again, back to DMT, I felt that that that sentient force, God, whatever you want to call it, was benign, was basically on my side. I'd like to think that perhaps that technology is being provided to us, that there is a bigger plan that we're just not dialed into, or that maybe it's a way to try and dial into that plan. I just want us to get to Star Trek, man. I just want to be, I think the goal, I think the intent for our species is to get off the rock and explore space and peace together. Well that would certainly be wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. That would be certainly preferable to destroying ourselves. What do you think is happening with all this UFO, UAP stuff? Do you ever think about that? Yeah, I've looked into the doc on that. [1:41:01] Like several times could never quite get beyond what's already publicly available. I just think it's, the government's covering something up, for sure. For sure, you know? What do you think they're covering up things that Dave invented? I think that's probably the most, again, I would like to believe that what they're covering, what I want to believe, in the same way that I want to believe in the Stone-Daped theory, because I mean, it's fucking cool. I want to believe that they're covering up contact with species from outer space, other intelligent life. What I suspect is really going on is that they're covering up shit that they're making that maybe has slipped the leash, you know? Or that they, or that for whatever reason they're just trying to like keep completely secret. The stuff that has maneuverability they can't be explained. Yeah, that's my thought too. I think both things though. I think we're probably being visited as well. And I think we might be being visited by something that is us from the future. [1:42:00] I think and might not even be us from the future, but being what happens when a species like us gets involved in digital intelligence and creates something that transcends the biological limitations and then you have these things like to me one of the one of the things is very bizarre Is the archetype the archetype gray alien, which is this big-headed thing with no muscle, no genitals, and it seems very humanoid in a way, which doesn't necessarily make sense if you're dealing with different environments and we think about it, the massive variety of species that exists on the planet that we're aware of. There's only one human. There's only one bipedal hominid. That's it. It's us. Right? Why is this thing so much like us? This shitty design of walking around on two people. Why can't it fly? Why does it have these spindly bodies? Well, human beings, as we're evolving, [1:43:06] one of the things that's very clear is that we're becoming less physical. We're weaker and softer than previous generations of humans that we can observe. You look at our testosterone levels compared to men from the 1950s, we're far lower on average. And if you go way back and you look at Australia pithicus and even Neanderthal, I mean, there's super powerful physical specimens. There were definitely, Neanderthal was like this, 5 foot 7, 200 pound behemoth of a creature that was, you know, if you have a Neanderthal competing in the UFC, it would smash everybody. Their bones are bigger, they're far more powerful. If you keep going in that direction, what do you get to? You get to this thing that has almost no muscle. This thing that, like, it just has the ability to move around, it's probably communicating telepathically. It's probably using its telepathic energy to control those devices, those ships. [1:44:05] That's one of the things that Bob Lazar said went, and again, the Bob Lazar story is who knows, right? I loved believe the Bob Lazar story. I had him on the podcast, I talked to him for three hours, I had dinner with him. He doesn't seem like a guy who's lying. And one of the more bizarre aspects of his story is how many of the things that he talked about now we know are true. You know, in terms of the technology, in terms of what people have seen, 3D printing, there's all these different things, like the ship that he went into, there's no seams. He's like, it's all like, as if it's made out of one piece of something, which is 3D printing. I mean, that's what we're doing now. And that there's no instrumentation. And that somehow and other, these things are integrated somehow with their minds or with something, with where it's allowing them to pilot these things without digital instrumentation and buttons and switches. [1:45:01] They're using some other wet method to control these things. And that's what he was supposedly brought in to try to back engineer, to try to say, what is this, how does it work? And he talked about the limitations of having science try to be practiced in a vacuum. And he was like, the metallurgists did not have contact with propulsion's experts, the propulsion's experts, did not have contact with other groups that were studying these things. Everybody was very secretive and everybody was very isolated. And he's like, that's not how science works. That's one of the reasons why they can never figure out how these things work. That you need to open this up to the global scientific community and have everybody examine these things and look at it. But the problem is the military applications. Like if you have something that can essentially use some new element and use this new element that's bombarded with radiation that allows you to manipulate gravity and move at insane speeds, [1:46:00] almost instantaneously to anywhere in the universe. You can't give that to the Chinese. You can't have someone else get a hold of it before us. You can have someone steal these techniques or these technologies. So what do you do? If you have this thing, if this thing has really been donated, which is like what a lot of these people that work on them, they call them donations. If you really have these things, what do you do? How do you figure that out? I don't know. But if we have been doing this since the 1980s, which is Lazar said it's been around far longer than that, but when he was working on that was the 1980s, you could imagine that by now we might have figured out a way to get a drone going that uses these technologies and that these drones can appear and disappear, they can fly and then same rates of speed, they can hover stationary at 120 knot winds like they've observed. You can imagine that that's ours. I saw the Phoenix lights. Did you really? You were there? Yeah, I saw that. [1:47:00] Whoa. Different people saw different things. What I saw was something the size of like an imperial star destroyer From Star Wars that was like at a relatively low altitude Moving over Phoenix my like housemate was like this. I mean this is before we had phones, right before we had cameras So this is like we had a flip phone of anything And he was like dude you got to get out here and I like came out the front yard of our house in Tempe and we just watched this thing Move across the sky. It was like what the fuck man out here and I like came out the front yard of our house in Tempe and we just watched this thing move across the sky and it was like what the fuck man like I mean I believe I believe in reincarnation because I came back from DMT thinking that I had a firsthand experience I believe that there was something inexplicable in the sky over Phoenix that night because I fucking it was massive and it was quiet. And then it was just gone. So what did it look like? It looked like a massive craft, not shaped like an Imperial Star Destroyer, but of that scale, there was more sort of like tubular shaped. And you could see more like, yeah, more like, [1:48:07] And you could see more like, yeah, more like a tube. But you could see variations in it. It wasn't totally smooth. And you could see by the way that it was blocking out the stars. You could see that there were apparatus on it. And I always thought that it was just a military aircraft where they thought they had a cloaking device. See now that's what other people saw was these smaller things on the same night that were explained away as being some sort of military flares or weather balloons or some shit. That's not what I saw on the same night, but I'm not the only one that saw this larger scale craft. So I always thought like man, that could be a military ship. They thought they had some sort of cloaking device that fucked up It fritzed out because that's kind of what it looked like I could see it and then I couldn't you know So so it looked like a tube and did it well? Our big we were talking about like several football fields. Yes. Yes. Yeah [1:49:01] I mean how many football fields I would say like the size of a battleship Okay, huge not an aircraft carrier, but the size of a battleship Like I would say three what's bigger aircraft carrier battleship battleship. I think it's bigger It's a destroyer whatever smaller than aircraft carrier Whatever the ship is that smaller than aircraft carrier air air so not as big as an aircraft not as big as an aircraft What is a battleship? Yeah, it's either battleship or destroyer whatever that next one is I would say three football fields at least It was huge you could not miss it and how high do you think it was above you? No more than a thousand feet whoa Yeah, no one is low altitude. It was like right over right over tempi. I'm not the only one No, I'm not the only one that saw it. Yeah, I actually like went on the record with the newspaper I worked for you know right away because they were like Immediately dismissing those smaller lights that we just saw as like you know whatever whatever the explanation was Yeah, and I was like there's something else, you know in the sky that night too. So I I [1:50:03] Love to gamble if I had to make a bet, I would still say it's human military technology that frits out. Wow. But many people said they saw something that looked like a triangle. No, this is not a triangle. Yeah. So maybe there was more than one of these things. That was totally possible. You remember when the governor did that press conference and came out with a guy on an alien suit and made a mockery of the whole thing? Which is what their tactic has been. But then that same governor came back after he left office and talked about it and said that he saw something and admitted it. Yeah. What was the governor's name? Five Simington. Five Simington. See if you can find an audio of video of Five Simington saying what he actually saw on witnessing the Phoenix lights. I think later he talked about it. Well, unlike Five Simington, I was stoned. [1:51:01] But I still know what I saw. Man. Yeah. I still know what I saw. Okay. I still know what I saw. And what's interesting is when he's trying to describe the shape and he puts it at a bigger size than I have it in my memory, I do remember talking with my friends, like it was hard to describe what we just saw. It was like we didn't have a reference, it's like we're trying to, let's see if I can I get a ticket like this, we're trying to find reference points For something that really doesn't have one, I guess Like it kind of estimate the size, but it just it had it was it was unlike anything I'd ever seen before Have you ever heard people describe what the Native Americans must have seen when those boats start showing up? No, they'd never seen anything that large That it probably blew them away, you know when those boats started showing up, they'd never seen anything that large, that it probably blew them away. You see the Pinta and the Santa Maria and these massive boats from Europe? That they were like, what the fuck is that? Well, let's hope that the beings aboard the craft [1:52:02] is that's what they are, had better intentions than the people in those boats. Yeah, right. Yeah. That's crazy that you actually saw it. Yeah. Wow. And you said it just disappeared? Yes. It wasn't like whoop or anything. There was no noise. It was just it was there. There were some lights. Like you said, I remember there was some lights that were not stars that were part of this craft. Could you describe what those lights looked like? No, they were, they were not colored. They were, you know, white or off white. Because I remember thinking like, are those stars? I was trying to like actually see what is the shape and what is stars. That's how it was gauging how big it was. And that was like, no, those are attached to this thing. And then it was just, I just couldn't see it anymore. It was like the Northern Lights, some from Alaska, right? So it was like the Northern Lights, they're there, and then they're not there. It was just like this ghostly thing, and then they're gone. And it was like that. It was there, it was moving at a slow speed, from my left to right, and then it was just I couldn't see it anymore. And but it was like 20 seconds at least. It wasn't like a glimpse of this thing. [1:53:06] It was, yeah. And how many lights? Half a dozen, yeah. Someone around there. Yeah. And I know people said that they saw triangle. So then for a while they were saying that's why he was probably talking about the B2 bomber, or the stealth bomber, because they're kind of triangular It was way bigger than one of those and it was not it was not that shape at all You know I struggled to come up with what shape it was because it's a shape that I haven't really seen before So wow and what was your initial thought? That that's an alien spacecraft? No my initial thought was not an alien spacecraft. It was basically, initial thought was just like, what the fuck is that? And then once I talked about it, it's that same sort of like, want to believe, actually believe thing. We've talked about several times today. I want to believe it was an alien spacecraft. I believe it was probably, you know, US military technology gonna rye. Real? [1:54:01] Yeah. do you think they have the capability to do that in the 1990s? Cause what was the Phoenix lights? Yeah, it was 19 of his mid mid 1990s. I think it was 96. I'd been 97, I'm not sure. As more time has gone on though, like you're asking me what I thought in the moment. Yeah. As more time has gone on, I've like the needles moved towards. Maybe that was was actually an extraterrestrial craft. Yeah. Because there's so much has come out, like, especially in the last five years, because you know as you've talked about here. Yeah. So, it's just so strange that it all occurred in this one area, and it's one night. Right. That has to be a real paradigm shifting moment for you. But, yeah. Well, I think I was, I got so caught up in the like, the government's trying to cover up its own fuck up. Like they're putting up, and then there was the smaller lights thing and the weather balloon. But I went on the record with Phoenix New Times. There's a guy named Tony Ortega there [1:55:01] that wrote a piece about it right away. And I went on the record because I was like, maybe one of the last, you know, I wasn't like the UFO enthusiast type, right? Right. In the community. I was a fairly well-known writer in the greater Phoenix Metro at that time. And not someone that would be normally associated with like being a quote unquote UFO crazy. So I went on the record with the article, which was running, and was like, yes, I saw this no fucking way. It was weather balloon or a flare or whatever they're saying. It was massive. So, hmm, man, what I would give to see something like that. But you know, to your point about, like, looking at how people about the technology and maybe it's being kept quiet because of the military applications, like, look at how people freaked out when they leaked about this new Russian space weapon, right, a couple of weeks back or three weeks back, whatever. Exactly. It's like an ability to disrupt satellite communications in space, like Russia, like somehow leaked maybe deliberately out of Russia that they got this tech far more advanced technology [1:56:00] than we thought they had to a weapon that would be in space that could disrupt communications and satellites and really focus up. It leaked and then there was this one congressman that went public with it. We have a real problem. This is like as well as in Ukraine, so maybe three weeks ago. Imagine if it was something like on the scale of like a ship, the weaponized ship that could be cloaked like that or some of the technology, or if we did have, as you said, this donated technology that's from an extraterrestrial intelligence that the US has been figuring out applications for, you'd have to keep that on lock. Because what if that leaked right now? What do you think Putin would do? You know? Right. The fucking knows what he would do. If all of a sudden it leaked that we had these military capabilities that are far beyond what he thinks we have. That's my thought about these things that they keep seeing because they always see them in areas where they do military tests. [1:57:02] The Tic Tac was off the coast of San Diego, which is where all the military bases are, and the things that Ryan Long had seen were all off the east coast, and restricted airspace, and space where they run fighter jet training, and he said when they upgraded their technology in 2014, they upgraded their sensors. And that's when we started seeing these things constantly all the time. And then they were getting visuals. They were seeing the visual versions of these things and that was a square with us. It was a sphere in a square or a square in a sphere. Do you remember? Square in a sphere. Square in a sphere. So there was like this circular sphere and this black square that exists in this thing and it's hovering and it's hovering in very high speed winds and it's just stationary motionless and that these things are able to move. It just bizarre rates of speed with no indication of a traditional propulsion system. No heat signature that shows that, you know, [1:58:06] rocket propulsion, nothing, nothing that we can explain. And if they had a drone that could do that, that's where they would test those things. And what better way to test whether or not people could see them than to run them out there when people are using new jets with new capabilities? Can you see them? Okay, they see them. And the fact that, you know, the TickTack when Commander David Fraver brought this information and reported it, and they showed the videos to these admirals. And they were nonplussed. They were like, mm-hmm. Okay. And they just left just left the room. Like, like, do they fucking know? How are they not? Are they just like stone-cold dudes who can just keep it together in the face of some alien technology? They know that we were being visited. Or is this... And the other thing was that when he, when Fraver communicated this stuff, these [1:59:03] guys who are running these sensors, they were running the detection systems, they were saying we're seeing these things all the time every couple of weeks, we're seeing them all all over the place. Well, what the fuck is that? And this is also 2004. Did they have the ability of 2004, something to go from above 50,000 feet above sea level to 50 feet in less than a second. What is that? Like what the fuck is that? And people try to, you know, argue it away or explain it away by saying, oh, it's a failure of the detection systems and the glitch and the, yeah, but visuals, they have more than one fighter jet is seen it. They have video of this thing moving at a speed that would turn human beings into jelly. Like there's a biological entity inside that thing and experiences that G-Force. You're talking about some fucking insane G-Force. Like, 1,300 times what a human being can tolerate and just... [2:00:01] GEEZH! Gone. Silent. No visual means of propulsion no no windows don't what is that is that a drone what is that and the witnesses have been reliable to like i have a fair yeah i've been suspected that like the last twenty years especially the last five it feels like the witnesses the guys coming forward saying look i know what i saw are more the ones that are socially with the government even commercial airline pilots, they'll be on the FAA, but especially military pilots, you know, they'd be in a loud to speak, that it feels like the waters are being tested by the government for some reason. Like, we're gonna let this out a little bit, we're gonna let the people, that actually people may actually believe, like a test to what they saw, and see how the public reacts. That's what things go on. Well, that would be what I would do if I was running the government if I wanted to hide the fact that we have these things. I would say that these are off-world crafts. That's what I would say. I would say, look, these things are behaving in a way that we can't explain. Well, I guess we're being visited. [2:01:00] And then go right back to whatever black ops thing that you guys are doing, some Raytheon project. I mean, I don't know what it is, but I go back and forth all the time, whether I think it's from another planet, another galaxy, another dimension, or whether I, or not, I think it's us, or many people think that they've always been here. You know, when you talked about the Vedas, in the Vedas, they've always been here. You know, when you talked about the Vedas, in the Vedas they talk about these things. They talk about that, I mean, it's in the Bhagavad Gita. It's in the ancient Hindu texts. They talk about these Vimanas, these crafts, that whatever these beings operate. So in that case, we're just getting better at detecting them or are they showing themselves, we're off and we're gonna see. Well, in that case, we're just getting better at detecting them or are they showing themselves more often? Well, in unique circumstances, if someone sees something like this, like you, so you see this in 1990, whatever it is in Phoenix, if you lived 5,000 years ago and you see this, like what is that, what is that sound like? What does that sound like to everybody? [2:02:01] Sounds like you're out of your fucking mind. And a small handful of people say it, they tell stories, people write it down, just goes away. If you need experiences, are very difficult to classify. You know, if you have an experience with a ghost, if a ghost shows up in this room and we all see it, and it doesn't show up on camera, and we swear, we saw an apparition of fucking forest gump standing there. You're like, what the fuck is that? Well, you're just left with a story. You know, if you can't measure it, you can't write it down, you can't even a video of it. Like, what are you seeing? You've seen grainy footage of something, you know, when you see, I'm sure you've seen these supposedly leaked images that fighter pilots have taken with cell phones from their aircraft. Like, what are they saying? What is that thing? What is that weird blurry looking, metallic looking thing? Is that a mylar balloon that they're mistaking for a spacecraft? That doesn't seem likely. Seems like they're a lot fucking smarter than that. They're not gonna think a child's birthday balloon [2:03:02] that's floating around at 20,000 feet is an aircraft. They're probably going to realize it's a balloon. They probably seem balloons, you know? I don't know. In those videos, too, it's the commentary that kind of sells it like, look at that thing move over what it means. Yeah. Like the GoFast video. Look at it go. Jesus Christ. And these guys are trained pilots. They're used to seeing things and they're seeing something that rotates. This is the other thing about the craft that cone sides with what Bob Lazar said. It's moving like this and it turns sideways. And Lazar said that's what it did. That it would direct its generator. Whatever that gravity generator is, it would direct that towards the way that it wanted to go. So it would literally turn sideways to move forward. Kenneth Arnold was talking about these things in the 1950s. Right? So for sure in the 1950s, we didn't have the capability to make something like that. Something with no visible means of repulsion that's shaped like a saucer that flies silently through the air and moves at a speed and [2:04:02] has capabilities in terms of maneuverability that far exceeds a jet That we had back then. What does that mean? What is that? I mean there they were seeing these things when they had we had propeller planes You know like what is that? I don't know but part of me feels stupid for even talking about it You know to me and it's like why you wasting all your energy? You have so many things you have to do. Because it's fascinating. It is fascinating. It's fascinating. But it's also, it makes you feel like a fool. And I think that's part of the strategy of all this stuff. Well, ridiculing people that have talked about UFOs has been part of the government strategy from the jump. For sure. That's a project blue book. That's been documented. Yeah But the thing on the military installations, of course, the two theories are one is that there's some sort of extra terrestrial intelligence that's drawn to our military activity, but what seems like the more rational explanation is, as you said, that's where they test this shit. Sure. Or, you know, if I was an intelligent species that's willing to donate these crafts like they claim [2:05:01] that they kind of let these things land or crash and then they'll do it in a very strategic way where they know that the military will be able to corden off the area and isolate and stop people from talking about it. And the idea that people in the military aren't able to keep secrets, so that's nonsense. They're really good at keeping secrets. You know, they can keep secrets, especially high-level people. Look, if I had access, like if, if not Joe Biden, he's too far gone. But if Obama called me and like during his administration, he said, you want to see some shit? I'd be like, I want to see some shit. And he said, don't tell anybody. I'm like, I won't tell anybody. Maybe I tell my wife. Maybe I tell one of my friends. But I wouldn't fucking go public and tell everybody, if they're willing to show me this shit, no one's gonna believe me anyway, right? And so I'm like, what good does it do if I make myself look like a moron A, B, now I can't have access to it anymore, [2:06:01] cause I told them, cause I told people about it, cause now they can't trust me. I shut the fuck up Special if I was in the military. I would shut the fuck up show me, you know, you ever heard the story There's a it's a widely disputed story But that Jackie Gleason and Nixon were drinking one day and Nixon was like you want to see some shit and Nixon took Jackie Gleason To one of the Air Force bases and showed him this UFO. And Jackie Gleason was a UFO fanatic, I don't know if you know this, but Jackie Gleason actually had a home built in upstate New York that looked like a UFO and he had this home built after this supposed experience. No shit. Yeah, show the images of the home. This is the home that Jackie Gleason had built. I mean, what the fuck? Look at the outside of it though. Not that one. That one's kind of just a cool circular one, but that image. Like what the fuck are you doing Jackie? [2:07:00] Why you make it a UFO house in upstate New York? It seems a little odd. Take that image. look at that. I mean, come on man, what the fuck is that? It looks kind of like a sci-fi movie prop though, you know? It looks like a cliche of a UFO. Right, but that's apparently, this is the folklore. Is that that's what he saw. And so he's like, I don't know, build a fucking house, look like that. You know? It's fun. It's fun. But it also has this feeling of futility. It's like a huge tile thing. Like why are we even talking about it? It's nonsense. It's fascinating. But it just seems like, it almost seems like you're never gonna know. You know? I think we talk about it because it gives us hope, frankly. Yeah. We want to believe it's true. Well, we certainly want to believe the stories that they hover over military bases and shut down nuclear weapons. And, you know, my comedy club is called the Comedy Mother Ship. And you walk into the comedy club. [2:08:01] There's a gigantic artificial UFO that we had built. So when you walk into it comic club, there's a gigantic artificial UFO that we had built. So when you walk into it, like as you walk in the front door, this is big construction of a UFO that has a beam that comes down and we use it as a projector to show who's coming soon on the big screen. But I named the rooms Fat Man and Little Boy because those are the bombs that we dropped and right after we dropped those bombs that's when all the UFO activity happened. That's like there's a giant uptick in UFO activity after 1945 and in the UFO folklore it's like they realized that we have the ability to drop nukes and so then they visiting. And then they started shutting down nuclear weapons at bases and making their presence known at these military bases. So hey, keep it together, bitches. Like we're watching. We don't want you to nuke this whole planet and ruin our little program. And then our program is an accelerated engineering program [2:09:01] that we've accelerated the evolution of human beings through some sort of intervention, and that this is why we're so different. It's not the stone-daped theory. It's the humans are engineered by some superior life form to try to accelerate our evolution and bring us to this place, and that they've helped us along the way. But we're autonomous, and we're allowed to do what we want to do, and so we do Disgusting crazy shit like drop nuclear bombs from propeller planes by the way, right? propeller planes on Cities and that once they did that they're like, okay slow the fuck down We're here No, whether they've always been here like in you the Vedic texts or even in the Bible, in the Ezekiel's description of the wheel within a wheel, have you read that description? Pull up Ezekiel's description of what he saw. This is one of the favorite descriptions from the Bible, from the Old Testament about UFOs that people love to bring up. [2:10:06] Because Ezekiel has this thing that he describes and it's all, it's the most bizarre depiction. I looked, I saw an immense dust storm come from the North and immense cloud with lightning flashing from it. A huge ball of fire glowing like bronze within the fire were what looked like. Four creatures vibrant with life. Each had the form of a human being, but each also had four faces and four wings. Their legs were as sturdy and straight as columns, but their feet were hoved like those of a calf and sparkled with the fire like burnish bronze. On all four sides under their wings. They had human hands. All four had faces and wings and the wings touching one another. They turned neither one way nor the other. They went straight forward. Their faces looked like this in front of a human face on the right side, the face of a lion on the left, the face of an ox. [2:11:02] And in the back, the face of an eagle so much for the faces. The wings were spread out with the tips of an ox, and in the back the face of an eagle, so much for the faces. The wings were spread out with the tips of one pair touching the creature on either side. The other pair of wings covered its body. Each creature went straight ahead, wherever the spirit went they went. They didn't turn as they want. The four creatures looked like blazing fire or fiery torches. Tongues of fire shot back and forth between the creatures, and out of the fire, bolts of lightning. The creatures flash back and forth like strikes of lightning. As I watched the four creatures, I saw something that looked like a wheel on the ground beside each of the four face creatures. This is what the wheels looked like. They were identical wheels, sparkling like diamonds in the sun. They looked like they were wheels within wheels, like a gyroscope. They went in any of the four directions they faced, but straight not veering off. The rims were immense, circled with eyes. When the living creatures went, the wheels went. When the living creatures lifted off, the wheels lifted off. Wherever the spirit went, they went. [2:12:01] The wheels sticking right with them. For the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. When the creatures went, the wheels went. When the creatures stopped, the wheels stopped. When the creatures lifted off, the wheels lifted off because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. Over the heads of the living creatures was something like a dome, shimmering like the light, like a sky full of cut glass, vaulted over their heads. Under the dome, one set of wings was extended towards the other with another set of wings covering their bodies. When they moved, I heard their wings. It was like the roar of a great waterfall, like the voice of the strong God, like the noise of a battlefield. When they stopped, they folded their wings. And then, as they stood with folded wings, there was a voice above the dome over their heads. Above the dome, there was something that looked like a throne. Sky blew like a sapphire with a human-like figure towering above the throne. From what I could see, from the waist up, he looked like burnish bronze and from the [2:13:03] waist down like a blazing fire. Brightness everywhere. The way a rainbow springs out of a sky on a rainy day, that's what it was like. It turned out to be the glory of God. Like what the fuck man? I mean to anybody that's done DMT or Iawca are really tripped on psychedelics though you read that and it feels sort of familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the glory of God, the glory of God. And these visions of these beings. And the fact that these things are constantly changing their appearance. That's the thing about the DMT experience is like it's not a stationary static experience. It's constantly changing and moving in front of you And to see something like that in the sky and the fact that it's so noteworthy that they wrote it down in the fucking Bible Maybe he found some of those mushrooms Well, you know that's there's a [2:14:02] University in Israel I think is the University of Jerusalem that theorized that the Moses experience of the burning bush was a DMT experience. And that what this is like when you say Moses saw the burning bush, well what kind of bush would burn that would give you a psychedelic experience? Well the occasion tree, the occasion tree which is very common to that area, is rich with DMT. And how do you how do you psychoactively acquire DMT? You smoke it. So you're smoking this tree, this burning bush, and you're seeing God. And God has brought you 10 commandments of how to live life, which sounds like a lot of what you experience in the DMT experience. When you have that and you have these contact with the entities, they kind of give you guidelines on how to live. Yeah. It felt to me like a massive amount of information being downloaded, but that it was guiding in nature. Yeah. But very difficult to hold on to. Yeah. [2:15:01] Like you're like, what is it? So like, it's probably something you'd want to write down. Yeah. Yeah. Like the 10 Commandments. Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, back to the Christianism and probably part that was his thing. It was like you can't hold on to it with psychedelics alone. And you don't need psychedelics to get ahold of it in the first place. What he was preaching and he probably recognized that the thing that the problem with taking psychedelics is that it's so accessible. You just take it, I mean it's the beautiful thing about it, but you also could say, without, I give you a problem because then a bunch of people with no discipline would just start popping these things and having these experiences and having no sort of framework, no moral framework, no ethical framework, no understanding of what, what are you experiencing and what to do with this stuff? No discipline. Right. But if you acquire it biologically, if you acquire it endogiously through discipline, then you you are on a path and through that path you can achieve this thing and you realize that this is a very difficult thing to achieve and that you have to stay on this path in order [2:16:04] to get this enlightenment. I can see how someone would say, no, listen, that's not the way. This is the way. You can do it with your own mind. You don't need these things. You don't turn it to a Kenna's thought on that, though. Very funny thought. He said, it reminds me of an ancient story of this monk had acquired a city of levitation and practiced this. And it said to the Buddha when the Buddha came to town, you know, I've spent 20 years acquiring the city of levitation and I can walk across the water. And the Buddha said, yeah, but the fairies only a nickel. So that was mechanics take on it. It's like, why would you do all that stuff when you could just take the mushrooms? But mechanic was, you know, mechanic was a brilliant man. [2:17:02] He wasn't some stone hippie in the middle of upstate New York to strip and balls on mushrooms. I think it has some, you know, it's helpful to have some sort of like processing after the experience, right? And not just keep like repeating it, trying to like back to that space, yeah. Also, McCann, I was, you know, he was a proponent of taking psychedelic drugs, so he probably would want people to think that his way is the way. You know, he's only human, right? Yeah. I don't know, man. But it's all, look, just the fact that the psychedelic experience is a real thing. And when you do take that and you do have those experiences and you realize that it's a real thing, and like, how did I not know about this? How is the most profound thing that's ever happened to me? Something that is a schedule one drug that's illegal for whatever reason that no one's explained to me accurately, no one's ever explained it in a way that makes sense. Why is a thing that doesn't kill anybody that exists in the human mind? That was the other thing that McKenna said about DMT. It's illegal, but [2:18:00] everybody's holding. Right. Everybody has it get to write it. Everybody has it. You know, if you want to test people for DMT, well, everybody's guilty. Everybody. The most staunch, conservative, anti-drug person is right now has DMT in their body. All of them do. Everybody does. It's literally like testing people for blood. Yeah, you have blood. Of course, you're alive. Yeah, you have DMT. You're alive. Yeah, but it's illegal. What? It doesn't make any sense. It sounds so insane. And also the fact that it's naturally occurring, not naturally just naturally occurring in the human mind, but naturally occurring in nature and that there seems to be some sort of mitigation strategy by the human body in order to keep you from tripping balls by consuming all the different plants that have DMT in it. And that's mono-Amean oxidase. So mono-Amean oxidase breaks it down in the gut. So if you consume like grasses, like philaris grass, it's very rich in DMT. If our human being consumed that, you're not gonna trip. [2:19:01] Because the mono-Amean oxidase in the gut breaks it down. So the strategy that they came up with with ayahuasca was to combine these psychedelic plants, these plants that contain dimethyltripamine with other plants that contain harming, which is a monoeumine oxidase inhibitor, and that the two of these together will allow an orally active version of dimethyltrip to me, which is what it is. You know with me I really felt like once was enough. I know you have a different approach. But I mean everybody's different. I mean once was enough because it's so fucking scary. You don't want to do it again. I get it. But every time I've ever been troubled and I've done it, I feel way better. I'm like DMT specifically. Yeah. Yeah, I'm talking about DMT specifically. Yeah, every time I've ever done it, I'm like, the things I concentrate on are so stupid. Yeah. The things that worry me are so foolish. I find that with MDMA. I find MDMA to be very useful as a reset. [2:20:01] Sure. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It also makes you realize how insecure you are and how insecure most people are with interactions with each other. And when those barriers are down, how wild the experience is of just not having any fear of human interaction. That's something I only did once. And the problem that I had with it was after it was over, I felt so drained. But I didn't have any strategy for like taking, you know, some sort of a serotonin booster, like 5HTP, which is what people take that are like, they really know what they're doing with that stuff. They take 5HTP to boost up their serotonin while they're doing it. So that after it's over, they're not just crashed. Cause the next day I was useless. I remember I was in a coffee shop, the next day I was trying to read a magazine, and I couldn't read. I couldn't concentrate. I literally couldn't read this magazine. I was like, oh my God, I'm so dumb. My brain feels like I felt, the way I described it was like I had a dry sponge for a brain. And normally it's wet and filled with water. [2:21:05] Now it's just like, ugh, this dopey dry sponge, and was it worth it? Maybe, but I had stuff to do that day. I had to show that night. And this was after doing what? MDMA. Yeah, you're an E-tard, right? E-tard. It's just a call of 90s. You're an E-Tard. Yeah. But the experience is not good. Yeah, you do need to do the serotonin booster that day is the key move. But I just think it's bordering, you know, it's not bordering a criminal. This is fucking criminal that the government has kept MDMA therapy from like, especially guys coming back from these fucking wars in Middle East, you know? Yeah. They're all fucked up with PTSD because somebody who has PTSD, not from combat, but from childhood trauma. MDMA is just like a godsend, literally, from the gods, the godsend. And that that that shit has been kept from, I mean, in maps, that organization maps has been due to fantastic research with it. And it seems like that, you know, it's on the path to legalization now, finally. [2:22:00] You know? Yeah. But there are so many guys that needed that, so badly. And including the people that are making it illegal, unfortunately, that's the problem. It is that it's an experience that's being kept from us by people that haven't done it. Right. Right. Yeah. That was another quote that was attributed to McKenna. McKenna tried to attribute it to somebody else but they said they didn't say it. But it was that LSD is something that causes severe psychotic experiences and people who haven't taken it. Nice. I might have paraphrased that, I think I did. But it's something along those lines. And you know, we know for a fact that all that stuff was made illegal during the sweeping psychedelics act of 1970 that was designed to subvert the war movement and to subvert the civil rights movement. And to go after the Black Panthers and all these different people that were disrupting the government's control over society. And the best way to do that is to make all drugs illegal and then go after those people [2:23:03] and just throw water on the whole party. It worked. It worked for decades. And it like severely impacted art, specifically music. If you look at the music from the 60s all the way up to 1970 and then there's this confusion period of 1970 and then you look at the music of the 80s, like what the fuck happened, everybody? What happened? How do you go from Hendrix? Yeah. You know, to fucking whatever. You know, I don't want to make fun of any 80s bands, but hair bands, you know, like, what happened there? What the fuck happened? How did it get so dumb? Everybody stopped shipping and started doing coke. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what happened. Yeah, and they just lost the plot for a little while. It seems like the plot's come back. And I think the plot has come back. And I think you could kind of credit Lorenzo from psychedelics law and with the distribution of all those old recordings of Alan Watts and McKenna [2:24:01] and all those different psychedelic bards that we're talking about these things. They've got people more curious and interested in them and then you know people realizing that we needed to do something for these soldiers that are coming back with PTSD and the psilocybin ceremonies and ayahuasca and MDMA which is being used by maps. Maps is done an amazing job they really they're really having they've they've done it the right way where they're really promoting legalization in a very structured way. Yeah, it just feels like it's taken so long, but that's like what the government, that's the only way that the government is going to accept. It was like multiple research trials. Yeah. And even then, I mean, it really takes people leaving office and dying off. It takes the old people going away, the corrupt politicians that are in charge of deciding what is and is not legal. They have to vanish. And they slowly get phased out, generation after generation. And then the new people coming into play, some of them have military experience. [2:25:02] Some of them know people that have been really helped by MDMA therapy or IOWASC or many of them, IBegaine, people that have severe addictions to pills and all sorts of different opiates. IBegaine is one of the greatest things that's ever been discovered to help heal people from these problems. Yeah. Yeah. We're in so many weird competing factors are all happening altogether. And they're all in this wild chaos that is the age of information. The age of information and technology that's allowing people to have access to these things but also realize how crazy the world we live in is. And then you know know, you have TikTok or people are, you know, just being distracted all day long and being confused. And that's terrifying. Yeah. It's crack. Yeah. I feel more hopeful now, Joe. Once we started talking about psychedelics again than it was when we were talking about war. Yeah. Well, psychedelics might be the only thing that prevents war. [2:26:01] It might be the only thing that helps people. I mean, if you can get large scale use of psychedelic sanctioned and not just in America but worldwide, I think it will have a tremendous impact on the way people view this experience because this is a small tiny finite experience that we're going through. It seems like it takes forever, but it, I mean, you're 53. I'm 56. It's like Jesus, man, we're more than halfway to the finish line. And it's like it just happened. It's like a blip. And you're still we're all everyone, meeting included. We're all just trying to figure it out as we go along. And hopefully you're better than you were yesterday at it. And sometimes you're not. Sometimes you fall down. Sometimes you get back up and you climb a little higher this time and now you're now you're better than you were a year ago, but Boy it's fucking confusing You know I went to I went to college in University of California Santa Cruz There's no secret that Santa Cruz for a long time has been a center for psychedelics And there's a guy there who even I think even if I could remember his name I'm not gonna drop it But he got busted for making acid and I think it it was around 9-11. He had this massive underground LSD lab [2:27:08] like out in the middle of the country. And it was a story that never really got picked up because everyone was distracted by him. That was the missile silo guy? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And his whole thing was like he was trying to make what he called a planetary dose. That was his thing. I have to make enough acid for everyone on earth to take acid is the only thing that's going to save humanity and I kind of get it. Yeah, at least I get the thinking. I get the thinking too, especially if you're really tripping. Yeah, I know. Yeah, just get everybody fucked up. Yeah, there is people that have this theory that if you just dose the water supply in major cities, that people would be forced to trip. But you know, like what dose? I don't think that's probably a good idea. No, it's a terrible idea. No, the correct idea is legalization and centers that are set up by ethical experts [2:28:01] who really have experience in these things that can provide both counseling and medical services and allow people to do the correct dose safely under supervision and then counseling that gives them some sort of a framework as to what to do with this, what has happened, what this means and how you can apply this to your life. And if we could figure out how to do that in a structured way, we probably could help an enormous amount of people. Absolutely. The integration after the trip, right? Yeah. And that's taking back to Christian news, right? Because that's the series I have out. But but legitimate, there's a legitimate comment, which is that that's what probably pod and that's what Christian consciousness in the sense was offering was integration of the psychedelic experience. Here's a framework for integrating everything you've been experiencing on acid and mescalin. Right. You know, whatever, whatever the hippie kids were into. Yeah, and they, they were, I mean, I think Prabhupad and the people that were legit were [2:29:01] really trying to do that and they were really trying to spread this message. And if you think about what they were able to do during the 60s, with the help of George Harrison, they opened up a lot of people's minds to these ideas and probably changed a lot of lives in the directions of a lot of people's lives. Yeah, for the better. For the better. Yeah. Listen, man, I really appreciate your work. You know, Sasquatch is incredible and this Christian of Documentary is incredible too. You're really awesome. Thanks brother. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. And if you do this Ukraine thing or if you ever do a UFO thing, whatever you do, come back. Okay. Love that again. Thank you very much. All right. Oh, so tell everybody it's available. It's on peacock. Christian is. Christian is on peacock. Yeah. It's on peacock. Christmas. Christmas on peacock. It's awesome. Thank you brother. Appreciate it. Bye everybody.