Joe Rogan | The Effects of Negative Male Stereotypes w/Adam Conover

And the problems that men have are different than the problems those guys think men have. Right? So, for instance, we did an episode on stereotypes called Adam Runza's sitcom where we talked about different stereotypes via a cheesy 80s sitcom that had a lot of stereotypes in it. So you got the stereotypical black kid, you got the stereotypical Asian kid. Shall we gain an ever? What is that? Shall we gain an ever? No, we didn't do that. I wish we could have done that and women and all sorts of things. And we had a stereotypical dad, like a home improvement type dad. And what we talked about is there are ways that men are being harmed by the sort of narrow idea of what a man is. For instance, men have a very high suicide rate. And specifically, loneliness is a health problem for men, for older men. Take my dad. My dad's about 65. He doesn't have a friend. I hope he doesn't hear this. He has work colleagues. He's got my mom. He's got me. I'm sure he's got people he's friendly with. But he doesn't have a best friend who comes over to watch the Red Sox with him. That's terrifying to me. And the thing is, loneliness is associated with early death and with disease. And when you look at the way that we bring up men, men are socialized to not have close relationships with each other. Really? Yeah. I mean, like, we talk about from an early age, we talked about this so briefly on the show, but we could have gone into a whole episode on it. From an early age, researchers have found this, that little boys, when they're very young, are very close, form very close friendships. They're physical friendships. They hug, they'll kiss. They'll kiss on the cheek. You know what I mean? They'll have physical close friendships like that. And then they reach an age where that starts to become not okay. Where it becomes, oh, that's not how boys act. And girls are still doing that with their friends. They're still holding hands with their friends. They're still having close relationships like that. And boys start to build a little bit of distance. And it's easy to say, well, when you're a teenager, that's because the stigma against being gay and we don't want to appear gay. But it happens even younger than kids would even have a notion of that. So it really seems to be a deep down way that we bring up boys of like, hey, don't get too close to each other. You know what I mean? That's a little weird. It's just a little weird for boys to do that. And we do that from a young age. It's very subtle. It's very subtle, but it's universal. I mean, in America, it seems to be. And I've even felt that myself. I've often had an easier time having close, close relationships with women rather than men. As friendships. Yeah. As friendships. Yeah. Man. I don't have that at all. Just in terms of who I talk with about my relationships and stuff. I have good friendships with women, mostly that are comics, but almost all my good friends are guys. I have a lot of good friends. I mean, you're lucky if that's the case. Yeah, I certainly am. But there's that phenomena of having a little bit of distance from your male friends, you know? Really? And not getting really into it emotionally, you know? Look, if you don't feel that way, that's fine. I felt that myself. And that results in health outcomes. I'm sure some people feel it. You felt it. Some people feel it. I'm sure. I don't experience that. And, you know, most of my friends that I know have good male friends and are pretty tight with people. Well, when the point is that like there is a trend, especially in older age, right? Yeah. Well, it's a bad scene for anybody, whether it's a male or a female. When you get older and you don't have any friends, that's a bad scene. Well, so demographically, we know that that happens to men more than women, right? The man my dad's age is more likely to have less friends than a woman my mom's age. Do we know why? I mean, I think that's one of those things where I would hesitate to make a big conclusion. But I mean, I would say I think we can draw a link between that and, you know, that men are sort of like socialized to not have these close friendships. So that is a serious problem that men have, that men face, right? Another one we talk about is stuff like, you know, drinking and smoking, for instance, those are behaviors that are much more pushed on men. You know, those are much more advertised towards men, right? And those are dangerous, right? Those will like hurt you physically and can lead to an early death, right? Those can lead to bad health outcomes. And so those are things that men face that are different than the challenges that women face and can result in bad health outcomes for us, you know? And it's so funny how the sort of like men's rights people, you know, they don't talk about that stuff quite as much. They talk about, you know, violence and, you know, people being hurt at work and stuff like that, like men having dangerous occupations. And that stuff is true as well. But like, these are the more subtle ways that, you know, men are hurt by the sort of narrow expectations of what a man is that we put on men. Hey, men are like this, you should be like this, you know? And some of those things hurt men. Do you think we still do that though? Do you think people still put narrow expectations of what men should be? I totally do. I think we might be lucky here in LA, you know, because we can sort of like live any way that we choose. I mean, you clearly live exactly how you want to live, which is great, you know, and I get to as well. But I think that, you know, we're lucky in that we're so self-actualized, you know what I mean? That maybe we face a little bit less pressure than, you know, your average Joe across the country. Yeah. But I don't know of anyone who's putting pressure on men to not be friendly with other men. That seems so ridiculous to me, to deny camaraderie. Obviously, in the military, it's a huge aspect of military service is the brotherhood that these guys form with each other. And that's about, you know, if you want to talk about traditional male values, that's about as manly a thing as a person can do, right? Serve their country. Very much so. But are like men, for instance, encouraged to, you know, be emotionally vulnerable with their friends, for instance. Like I think that's something that's like tougher. Don't do it. They're going to bring it up when you argue. Yeah. And so that's the thing. There's a level of intimacy that we're like, and that sort of intimacy is what leads to long friendships, you know, that really, really last, right? It's a balancing act, I think, because I think there is intimacy and then there's also guys who are just being a bitch and they need to learn how to man up. Like both things are real. Both things are real. It is real to be intimate and to be vulnerable and to explain how you feel. But then sometimes you shouldn't be just fucking complaining about things. You should figure your life out and man the fuck up and go do something. And it's not necessarily you being emotionally vulnerable as you like to say it in such a normalizing way. It might just be you being a bitch. That's possible too. Well, you don't think that when you say that you put a little pressure on men at all? Yes, I put pressure on men. Yeah. Well, there you think so. Maybe you are. Maybe you're the one putting a little pressure on you. Yes, they need some pressure. Most men need just a little bit of a motivational shove in the general direction of success and happiness. And a lot of that is overcoming laziness and applying some discipline to your life. I think those things are very manly attributes that turn out to actually be good for you. I think there's a lot of... I don't disagree with you about some of those aspects being good for you. Let me just give one other example. And I'm blanking on the name of this podcast. I can look it up if you want, but a very wonderful podcast about philosophy. Philosophize this? No, I love Philosophize This. It's a different one here. I'll look up what it was as I'm talking to you about it. But a really wonderful podcast where they were talking to this guy who was in the military and has PTSD. And he was talking about how the idea of be a man was just a phrase that he would hear a lot in the military. Oh, it's called Hi-Fi Nation is the name of the podcast. And there's an episode called Be a Man. Hi-Fi Nation, really wonderful podcast about philosophy. And he was talking about that idea of be a man. What does that mean in the military? And look, I'm just repeating what it is in the podcast. I have no military experience myself. I don't want to claim to. But that means sort of like overcome adversity, don't complain too much. If you have a problem, solve it yourself kind of thing. And he talked about, and they also talked with medical professionals who said the same thing, that that idea doesn't give men the tools they need to deal with PTSD and can actually exacerbate PTSD because it means that they're not trained how to reach out for help for those problems. Yes. No, I couldn't agree more. That's a different situation, I think. Oh, yeah. It's a different example of just a way that that sort of narrow idea, being a man means this, a real man would do this. That works in some situations. Maybe that works when you're in a foxhole. It doesn't work so well when you're out of it. So that's a narrow idea that can lead to a bad outcome. Sure, but that's basically what we were just saying, that you should be emotionally vulnerable and know how to express yourself with your friends and be honest and true about how you feel about things. But you also should know when you're being a bitch. Both of those things are real. Fair enough. If you're on a hike with a friend and he has to stop every five minutes because his foot hurts, like, come on, man, my foot hurts too. Just fucking walk. You're walking fine. I completely agree with you. I just don't think this is worth it. This is not what I had in mind when we started hiking. That guy's being a bitch, right? Yeah. Well, he needs to man the fuck up, right? But let me... You're hesitant to say man the fuck up because if it was a woman, what would you say? You would say, toughen up, just soldier on. What would you say? Well, I don't think that... The reason I'm hesitant to use that word is I don't think that being tough is exclusively a male characteristic. Right. That's why I said if you're a woman, what would you say? Would you say toughen up? If it was a woman in the same situation, you got to toughen up. You got to deal with it. Press on. Yeah. But men like to... We like to equate that to one of our best attributes, being a fucking man. Yeah. Because I'm a fucking man. But the problem is, what if you're on that hike with a friend? And your friend is legit afraid of hikes. I've been on hikes with... Sorry, I haven't even said hikes. Heights. I was like, damn, you can't be hiking with that dude anymore. I went on a hike with a friend. My friend had... We were in Zion National Park, which has some very narrow bridges. That's Utah, right? Utah, yeah. My friend had a panic attack. Oh, Jesus. Because of the hike. And that's legit. Sure. And thank God he was able... He felt able to share it with me. But if we... So that's the balancing act of creating an environment where you're not... Hey, yeah, don't complain about your foot. But hey, if you're really in distress, you can share that with me. And some men feel that they can't do that. I remember when I was younger, feeling, well, I really have this problem, but I can't express that to my friends because they're going to make fun of me. And that sucks. And so my goal is to... And what that segment that we did about manliness was about was saying, hey, if you're a man and being a man to you means being confident, being assertive and stuff like that. Great qualities, not bad qualities at all. But we want to expand the notion of manliness so it includes all the different ways that one can be a man. That is, it's as wide as possible because otherwise we're going to shut it down. The expression manliness, right? That's the problem. Because manliness instantly becomes handsome, aggressive, muscular, all those things. That's our cultural idea of a man. And womanliness is more like soft and kind. You don't think of it sexually. When you think of womanliness, it isn't really a word that's used, but if it was, womanly. Those are the cultural ideas that we associate with those things. So let me just give you my example. Personally, I love taking care of other people. With me and my girlfriend, we've been together 10 years. One of the main things I love to do in our relationship is I really like cooking for her. I like taking care of her. It's like something that I enjoy, right? That's the part of my manliness. That's like how I am a man. You know what I mean? To provide. It feels good to get food and to sit down and do something for her and cook for her. You can associate it with, yeah, providing goes back to that classic sort of manly value. You can associate it with that. Okay, we'll take away that word. I'm not even saying in that sense. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that word. Just in that sense, you want to give. Yeah, exactly. You're trying to give. And that's not a value that I was brought up with of like that's a manly thing to do, right? Is to like be kind and be nurturing. You know what I mean? Really? But it's something that I really, that really means a lot to me. Yeah, it wasn't what I was brought up with. And so to me, it's important to like expand my notion of what it was really a big deal for me to like realize that that was part of what being a man was to me. And I noticed that like, you know, for instance, like, let's just take the example of like, you know, kids entertainment, like growing up, you know, like kids cartoons and stuff like that. Like the female characters are the ones who are taking care of other people. And the male characters are the ones who are kicking ass, right? And I like kicking ass sometimes too. But I realized at one point I was like, Oh, I didn't have like models of that as a kid of like, here's a man who takes care of other people emotionally or, you know, or in a caring way, you know, Dr. Phil. Dr. Phil, he does it a little bit. He does. He does. I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, whenever you have a label, especially a narrow label, it's a problem, you know, and I think the idea of manliness or like what it entails and the problems that people would have about that on the outside, it's almost always problems that are being imposed on them. Like are the ideas that are being opposed on them or people who don't like the way they live or don't like who they are or want to mock who they are, how they live. So if someone's too emotional, if someone's too introverted, instead of celebrating that or that guy's different. Cool. Yeah. Instead of that, it's the bully mocking and shitting on them. The jock type behavior that we associated with being the negative aspect of masculinity, toxic masculinity is which is the phrase that gets tossed around. But I think this is, you know, this is a shitty humans. I agree. You know, I mean, that's really where the problem is. And it's not specific to men. It's definitely not. It's everybody. But let me give you one more example just to get back to what you're talking about, about body type and what people are attracted to. I read this wonderful advice column. It's this guy who, this guy doesn't have a kind of silly name, Dr. Nerd Love. He does a really good advice column. And this dude wrote in and said, hey, I'm with a woman. She's, you know, a little bit bigger of a gal, you know, than I've dated in the past. I really am into her. She's so cool, but she's not my type. I'm not normally into women like this. And that bothers me that she's not my type, right? Even though I'm into her so much, she's not my type. What do I do about this? She's not my type. And I loved this guy's answer. He wrote back and he said, dude, she's your fucking type. You like her, right? You're into her. She's a sexy woman, right? The problem is you were brought up in a world where it's not okay for men to like women like that. It's not okay to like women who are her size. And you've ingested that your whole life. And now you're hating yourself because you were told something about what's okay for you to like and what's not okay for you to like. And I really related to that, you know, because I remember feeling that way about girls I dated. Like, hold on a second. Oh, I'm into her so much. But oh, wait, is she not, is she not like attractive, right? Am I wrong to be dating her because she doesn't fit what I, you know, the sort of like set of parameters for what an attractive woman is, right? And so when you talk about what people say, what people say they're attractive to, if you ask any woman, wouldn't she say she's attracted to this kind of man? If you ask any man, wouldn't she say she's attracted to that kind of woman? Yeah, they might say that, right? But deep down, do they maybe have a desire that is not being, you know, that they've been told is wrong their whole lives, right? I really related to that. I was like, man, that is really a good point. I have been told that my whole life and it has, I've allowed it to control who I'm attracted to to a certain extent, you know? And that's a mental prison that I want to get out of, you know? And you know, now I have the benefit. I'm a little bit older, you know, and I feel like I'm in less mental prisons than I used to be. I feel like you're in no mental prisons at all, at all. I feel like a lot of your listeners, you know, have broken out of them, you know? But especially I think back about like when I was 16 years old and yeah, you know, you're swimming in that shit and you don't know to question it yet a lot of the time. And that's what our show is about is getting people to question those assumptions and those things that you're being told without even realizing you're being told them.