4 years ago
Have you had any psychedelic experiences? I haven't. And I was so tempted. We started the interview talking about my chocolate shamanism. You haven't had anything? I haven't. But I was really excited. Do you want to? I don't think so. And I'll tell you why. So I listened to the Michael Palin interviews and he had his great conversation with Sam Harris and I really think that this Sybin stuff is real. Just got decriminalized. I know in Denver I was just there the other day. But as I said before, I think that the ultimate drug is us. And so for me, I would rather, and I definitely think that our awareness, it doesn't encompass everything that is knowable, everything that we could know, but we hem ourselves in. And if we want to get out of those limitations, certainly drugs are ways that people have used for many thousands of years. But when you take the drug, you're like taking the drug and then you're not taking the drug. Like I would rather... What does that mean? It's like if you're taking psilocybin, you're having this great experience. But then tomorrow you're not taking psilocybin and so kind of your consciousness has narrowed. My aspiration would be to recognize that the drug is us. That if we want to expand our consciousness, there are all kinds of ways, whether it's meditation or awareness or just simple appreciation. That's when I do these cacao ceremonies. What I say is like you have this cacao in front of you, but it's not just this. Like think of the person in Honduras who planted the seed, the person who watered that seed, the person who took the plant, the person who paved the road to bring the plant. And I just think that we can expand our consciousness through our own means and then we always have access. But you're saying this from a person that's never had psychedelic experiences. It's really preposterous. If you did experience what psilocybin can do to you, you definitely wouldn't be saying it this way. You also wouldn't be thinking then you take it and then you're not on it anymore because it's profoundly influential for your perspective in regards to the whole rest of your existence. There's many people that have had psychedelic experiences that think about it as a rebirth, that they've gone through this and changed. So why would you have this rigid thought process about drugs and not drugs, but yet you don't have it about cacao, which is a mild drug? Yeah. And so you're right that it may not be entirely consistent. Some of the people you've described are good friends of mine who've really done it and I've talked to them about it and I'm endlessly curious. So why don't you do it? The reason is so far I have been on this journey to see what's possible within myself. And I'm still on that journey. I don't want to close off any possibility for anything. Why don't you assume that it would close things off? That's what's confusing. Just opening you up to a new experience that other people have found to be profoundly influential. Yeah. So, so far... You're very resistant to this. Like even when I'm talking, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you can't wait to come back with your own rational perspective... No, you're right. You know what's so funny? I will come back to this. ...from the perspective of a person who hasn't experienced anything. You're so right. And just, I think it's such a great point because I'm very close with actually the Tibetans. One of my closest friends is the prime minister of the Tibetan exile government. So I've been many times to Dromsala in India. I've met with His Holiness the Dalai Lama many times. And the most incredible thing about meeting with these guys, and they are all people who have found these incredible states of heightened consciousness. So much that their brains are changed when they go into the FMRI machines. But when you have a conversation with them, it's not like what we do. Like exactly, and thank you for calling me out. You say something, I've already in my head countered what you're saying before you're finished saying it. That's why you kept saying, right. Exactly. Exactly. Which probably means that you made me a little uncomfortable, which is good. That's what we want. And these guys, it's like you'd talk to them and they would just be so tuned in to what you were saying. And they would just kind of think about it. Then you'd finish and then they'd kind of look up. And then because we're Americans, we want, you know, somebody stops speaking. You have to, if you don't speak right away. And then there was like a minute. And then it's like, you're kind of looking around. Was it me? Did I say so? And then they would come back with this incredibly thoughtful thing. So you're right. You know, I don't want to close off any possibility. There are many different things that we could do. The path that I have been on, and certainly with this cacao, and you're right, cacao is like a mild, I mean, not a huge one, but like a mild drug. And life is a mild drug. Psilocybin's not very mild. Yeah. No, and my friends who have done it have said exactly what you said. So I have a good friend of mine who did it. And then he said, it just, it showed me a path to a different identity, a different consciousness. And now he said, I don't do psilocybin, but I do daily meditation. But I can see where I'd like to go, what's possible. So I get that. Yeah. Yeah. There's a bunch of different substances out there that have very similar profound effects. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.