Joe Rogan and Raghunath Cappo on Art and Ego

I was talking to a friend of mine about imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome? Yeah, you know that feeling? Do you know that expression? No. You get it when people think that you're really good at something and you don't have a lot of self-worth or you have this perception of yourself that you're not worthy. Right. You know, like maybe as an artist, that's a big one that you have it as an artist. Like I had it forever as a comedian and I probably still have it a little bit, but less so than I used to because I'm just more accomplished and more understanding of what it is and more engrossed in the process. I know what it is now more than I did before. Okay. And you, like when I meet famous people, if they know who I am, I'd be like, oh my God, I got to get out of here. This fucking person knows who I am. I'm tricking them. Right. It's a trick. They don't know. And they're like, hey man, I love your stuff. I'm like, no, you don't. Ask me, let me get away from you. It's like this imposter thing. And then sometimes things, enough things happen. When you go, you know what? I think I might be legit. I think I might be legit. Like this is so crazy. Like I thought I was an imposter forever, but I think I'm going to relax and just concentrate on the work and not worry about whether or not I'm an imposter anymore. Just concentrate on the work. That ego is always there. Yeah, it's always there, man. But the ego, it's interesting. Their syndrome is often more prevalent in people who are legitimately talented. And for some strange reason, because when you're legitimately talented, one of the ways you become legitimately talented is to be ruthlessly self-critical. Because that's how you get really good at something. And in ruthless self-critical, like I remember Cat Williams was talking about himself once. And Cat Williams, who's a crazy person, but a brilliant comedian. He said something that I have always thought. And he's like, I'm not a fan of me. And he goes like, I don't particularly like me. And I was like, that is why he's great. Because that makes you work so hard. The worst thing a comedian can be in the beginning is sure of themselves and then incompetent at the same time. It's horrible. It's horrible. Because you're not good, but you think you're amazing. And then you understand, you don't know why the world doesn't think you're amazing. Because you're delusional. You have this sort of artificial image of the world that you've put up. And in the world, you are the center. You are the center and you want everything to evolve around you. And the worst thing in terms of, for comedy, people have to enjoy what you're doing. They have to enjoy, and not everyone's going to, you're always going to have some people that don't enjoy no matter what. But you're trying to make it an enjoyable experience for the people watching you. Now if you are delusional and clueless and if you don't understand how people see you, you have a distorted perception of reality, distorted perception of your own presence. It fucks up the vibe for the audience. They recognize it too quickly. Because comedy, in a weird way, is a spiritual pursuit for the person who's making it. Because you're putting together thoughts and ideas and you're trying to get it into these people's minds in a way that elicits a response that makes them feel good. And the only way that you could really do it is you have to hit those notes. You have to reach that resonance. You have to find that frequency. Whatever it is that works on them. And you can't be thinking about yourself too much. You can't be pleased with yourself. Can't be happy with yourself. You always have to be analyzing. You're the sculptor. You have to be critical. And so in doing that, it's really easy to develop imposter syndrome. Because even when you're doing well, you know, fucking, I've had like, I don't know, nine or ten comedy specials. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how many people like them. They suck. I gotta keep going. You gotta keep working at it. It's like a sick type of perfectionism. So when someone would, I don't remember how we even got onto this, but that imposter syndrome exists because your ego won't, like your mind understands that your ego will fuck this up. If you let your ego say, oh, I'm the fucking man, you're gonna ruin this whole thing. You have to be aware of what this is. This ride requires you to stay within a certain frequency. You have to stay inside that frequency. As soon as you start going, yeah, everything's fucking awesome, it all goes away. All of it goes away. You have to stay inside that frequency. And that frequency is not a frequency where you're very pleased with yourself. I think you've gone full circle back to the Bhagavad Gita. Because the Bhagavad Gita is the warriors have to fight the war. You think the Bhagavad Gita is gonna be like, here's Krishna telling Arjuna not to fight. Arjuna doesn't wanna fight. He's got his guru on the other side. He's got his family on the other side. What's Krishna gonna say about this? And Krishna's saying, you gotta actually fight. You're born to fight. You just have to get out of your ego with this. And you have to do it as just a service. And I think when I apply that type of teaching to my life, like sometimes I'm not a great singer. I'm not a great Indian classical music, but I like to do it. And I'm enthusiastic to it. And to me, it's not about me. It's about sort of like an offering. It was like one of the first teachings I got in the ashram was, when you're on stage, don't do it to... Make sure you're doing it to serve God and not be God. That statement changed my entire life. And I was like, oh shit, everything I do is to be God. It didn't just change the way I sang. It changed the way I parent, changed the way I react to friends, to fans, to my parents. It was powerful so that I have to sometimes... I like to publicly sing on this... Have you ever heard kirtan? No. It's so interesting. What is it? It's chanting, call and response chanting of chanting mantras. And you use like this pump piano and Indian drums. I'll play some for you later. But it's great and it's popular in America. It's been sort of a little bit Americanized, but it's good. And it's great. And so what we do on Pilgrimage is I have my assistants and incredible drummer. He's from India. And then I play the harmonium, which is a pump piano. And we just sing publicly, call and response. And all the Indian people in India will come around and they'll sing with us. It's like, it's overwhelming. So there's one particular temple I go to in one particular holy place where singers come from around the world. It's like basically, you know, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin. It's like the best kirtan singers from around the world come and they sing. I remember one time I came with a bunch of students of mine and they called me up to sing. And in my brain, I was like, you guys are like the real deal. I don't want to sing. And they think, no, no, no, you sing. And I was like, no, seriously, I don't want to sing. Please, you sing. And like thousands of pilgrims come in at the time. And somehow I felt like I have to do this. I have to sing because that's what they're ordering me to do. I have to do it in a loving way. I have to do it in a way to make everybody excited. But I can't do it with any ego whatsoever. And it becomes like this incredible tightrope walking. Can I do my best with that? Can you get on stage? Yeah. And it's not about me as the great comedian, you know? Can I do that sort of as an offering where I feel like people are going to walk away with something and they're going to be changed a little. They're going to be lifted a little. They're going to go home a little bit more connected. It's going to help me and it's going to help them. Can I do it? When people, we have this thing where we say we deflect our praise. People say, hey, great, you're a great yoga teacher. This is how I train my students. You're a great yoga. That was a great thing you did. Our quick answer is by the mercy of my teachers. Like we don't want to hold on to praise because praise exacerbates the ego. Yeah. And so we immediately want to say, and it's not even like we're being falsely humble. We actually are made up of the teachers in my life. All the people that have loved me, cared for me. People are like screwed with me, but they also taught me a lesson. So the yogi's conception is everybody is creating what I am and therefore I don't own any of this. You want to praise me? I'm going to give the praise back to my teacher. Now the teacher's mood is by the mercy of my teacher. I look back at my life and I realize I'm just like a ball of energy and generally the energy goes to like feed my ego. How can it feed my ego? How can I use that to manipulate girls, to people like me? How can I use everything I've got gifted for my own self-aggrandizement? Of course. And so when you get these teachers in your life, spiritual teachers who sort of like give you a loving slap or a loving hey, and they turn you on in some way, they take what you already have and they redirect that north instead of south. Everything I was doing was just snowballing devastation. And now you don't give up those qualities that you have, but you use them in a way that brings people up instead of brings them down. That's what we were saying about movies too, or any entertainment or sounds in our mind. That state of mind that you're trying to achieve when you get on stage where you're trying to sing with no ego, that's exactly the frequency that you have to hit when you're doing comedy. You do your best, but you don't do your best so that people love you. You do your best because that's what you're trying to do. That's your craft. This is your thing. Your thing that you do, your expression, your art form, you have to manage it. The way the manage it correctly is you can't go out there with ego. You'll turn people off. They won't feel it. There's moments where you can use that, especially with comedy, where you turn and- But it's not ego. It's like- But even if you're doing it though, in comedy, you're doing it for the effect of making people laugh. You're not doing it for the effect of pumping yourself up. And you have to be very careful about that. And if they know that that's what you're doing, they will accept it. That's the art of it. It's a dance. There's a strange sort of dance that goes on. I would notice, this is humiliating to mention, but I will. If I wasn't doing it in a mood of service as an offering, if I got off stage and that wasn't my motivation, I'd be depressed. Because maybe you can relate to this. On stage, I'm the center. I'm the coolest. I'm it. They're singing song lyrics I wrote on my bed. And now they're all singing them. I'm in another country. Now I'm off stage and I'm a nobody. So if you're not medicating with any type of drug or sex, then all you're left with is a bunch of emotions. And I think this is why people who are entertainers can move towards addiction or ways to mask that loneliness that comes with being the center. Where the whole world is trying to convince you of the Maya. You've heard that word Maya? The illusion. The illusion of life is that you are the center.