Chris Kresser & James Wilks Clash on B12 | Game Changers Debate

Well, I think we can get into epidemiology and look at that, but I think we should definitely hit protein because I think of everyone watching, like that's the biggest myth and it's the biggest sort of gripe and then I think we should definitely hit B12. So I want to make sure we don't- Let's go with B12 because one of the things that you said that he disputed was, bring up that B12 quote that you said was complete horseshit. I can read it out if you want. Go ahead, please. B12 is this, and if you disagree with what you were critiquing, B12 isn't made, I'll read the whole thing and then. So B12 isn't made by animals, it's made by bacteria that these animals consume in the soil and water, just like with protein, animals are only the middlemen. Before industrial farming, farm animals and humans could get B12 by eating traces of dirt on plant foods or by drinking water from rivers or streams. But now, because pesticides, antibiotics and chlorine kill the bacteria that produce this vitamin, even farm animals have to be given B12 supplements. And you said that's just all false, that's all just factually wrong. So first of all, B12 is made by bacteria, but it's animals don't get it from consuming soil and water. First of all, you misrepresented what I said. So I said, it's made by bacteria that these animals consume. You went on to say that animals didn't get bacteria from the soil. That's not what I said. I said they'd get it from the bacteria that they got from the soil. So you misrepresented what I said. You made out- The key claims you made, James, is that it was, it used to be possible to get B12 by eating dirt on plant foods or from drinking water from rivers or streams. I still have not seen convincing evidence that that is true. And Jack Norris, a vegan dietician, has admitted as much in his article. And then even more relevant than all of that is looking at B12 deficiency rates between vegans, vegetarians and omnivores in the clinical literature. The other stuff is not really relevant until you get to the clinical- No, can we address each of your critiques then? Is that okay? Yeah. So first of all, you said there's zero evidence that B12 is fed to cattle, right? You said that. And so can I just first, you're representing it because I said even farm animals, can you put slide 44, please, Jamie? I said even farm animals have to be given B12 supplements. That's what I said. Okay. So did you mean all farm animals? Okay. So do you see that? That is a screen cap from the film. That's a chicken. And down at the bottom, there's the quote for the poultry, right? So would you disagree that pigs and chickens and- No, I don't disagree that they sometimes get B12, but do- What about shellfish? Shellfish are extremely high in B12. They're the highest, even higher than- That's a total non-sequitur and it's a straw margin. Really, because the implication in the film was the only reason you get B12 from eating animal products is because they're given B12 supplements. So you're really suggesting that the population gets most of its B12 from shellfish? No. Okay. I'm saying that the claim that animals need to take B12 supplements in order to have B12 in their flesh is not accurate. Where do you think chickens get it from? James. James. Where do you think chickens get their B12 from? The point about the shellfish was I never claimed chicken was a great source of B12. I said in the film, even farm animals have to be given B12 supplements. You said that it was absolutely false. Everything that I said about B12 you said was absolutely false. Those are your words. Well, this is also you talking about that people used to be able to get it from consuming vegetables- Right. Can we just go with- ... and that the water is now because of pesticides and chlorine. Yeah, and I can- The water no longer has B12 in it. Then you claim that the same percentage of you picked one study that showed equal rates of deficiency and ignored the huge amount of literature that shows big differences between vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores in terms of B12 deficiency. I know all of your critiques because I've noted them and I've got a point for each one. So can I just go- Sure. ... and then if you disagree, you can ... Jamie, could you pull up slide 45? And rather than throwing off track going to bat humans, we'll get to that in a second. But B12 is just commonly fed to chickens and you would agree with that, right? Yeah. And pigs and lambs that feel that can't ... like ruminants can create B12 in their gut from the bacteria that they eat. Yeah. Okay. But you brought up cattle- And by valves and other fish. Yeah, no, certainly. There's some. Yeah, but that's not ... yeah, totally. Okay. So since you brought up cattle, you said that cattle ... there's no evidence of cattle being fed B12. You're talking about flying at flight 46. Vitamin B12 for sheep and cattle, that's what it says. You said there's no evidence. So you said there's no evidence. So on the left, just so ... because people might not be able to read the small print. Well, listen, there's people just listening as well. Okay, sorry. For people just listening. B12 injection for sheep and cattle. There's three different products that's shown here. There's something that's added to feed on the left. So it says, a liquid complementary feeding stuff containing the central trace elements cobalt, selenium, and B12- It's found in treatment of B12 deficiencies. Correct. That's due to some soils being low in cobalt. Which is a lot of ... okay. So now if you just go to slide 47, please Jamie. Next slide. Okay. This is the largest supplier of animal feed or supplements in the world. Okay? And it's on their website. Young ruminants require supplemental vitamin B12 prior to full ruminant development. They also say vitamin T was sometimes administered parenterally to incoming feedlot cattle. And also B12, by the way, has been shown to increase milk production. You said there was no evidence that cattle are given B12. And you said that all my statements were absolutely false. Do you at least admit that you were wrong there? If I said that- Well, I've got your quote. ... cattle, specifically that one portion of the statement, that there's no evidence that cattle ever get B12 supplements, then I was wrong about that. Okay. Go ahead. Read what he says. Okay. First of all, when I made the full statement, this is what you first said, that's just all false. That's all just factually wrong. And then later on you said, there's also zero evidence that B12 is fed to cattle. That is flat out wrong. And I have just shown that. Is that fair? I'm not wrong about that. Okay. So we'll get to another point because you were wrong about many other things as well. Okay. So, let's see. So you agree that it is fed to cattle. So you want to look at humans. I'm just trying to see if they're the points that you brought up. They've been giving minerals and feet and different things to cattle for every particular reason. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. What is the point? The point, if cattle are deficient because they're in a feedlot where they're not eating grass- It's not only that. It isn't? It's the primary reason. It isn't only that? Or because soils have become- So young cows, young cows, no dead women. These are young cows that are most likely being fed. Right, but- And people have been getting meat, B12 from animals. Do you dispute that the primary source of B12 for human beings has been eating animals and also fish and shellfish? In history? And from- In history. Both. Both. Where is the evidence that rivers and streams and dirt has been a primary source of B12? I'm obviously going to give it to you. Do you think I came here today? You think I made claims in the film that I couldn't back up? Perhaps. Because there are quite a few claims. We went over those in the last show. Yeah, so can we stick with the B12? Sure. Okay. So can we just go to slide 48? Hold on a second, please. So- B12 concentration fluctuated between 100 and 2,000- So this is in the levels of water in the English Lake District. If you want to go to slide 49, the vegetables were eaten without being carefully washed. The strict vegetarians who did not practice hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be untroubled by vitamin B12 deficiency. And by the way, the retained vitamin D12 soil was adequate to prevent B12 deficiency. So what you're essentially saying is that we're dealing with B12 that was in soil and then in water and that by the chlorination and filtration systems that we use today, that's what's ruining the water and the water does not have the B12 in it anymore. Well, we sanitize water now, which is a good thing. Yes, but that also takes out the B12. Sure. So that makes your statement correct. So he was wrong again. That's not the consensus view that you can get enough B12 from eating unwashed vegetables. No, no, I'm not saying- But that's not what he didn't necessarily say. That was the consensus view. What he said in the statement was that the reason why we no longer have B12 in the water and in the soil is because of the fact that they add chlorines and pesticides. And that seems like there's evidence to back that up. So again, people have questioned, did I spend 1,000 hours? Now that I'm giving you the facts, do you question that I spent 1,000 hours? And I've spent another 2,000 hours looking at peer reviewed research since then. If you say you have, I have no reason to disbelieve it. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of, 1,000 hours is a lot of time. Like what was it? Lane Norton said that you should probably have gotten a PhD. I think, well, I don't think that's the case. I think those people are a lot smarter than me that are making these scientific- But I mean that amount of hours of research, you literally- I've estimated that I've done, conservative estimate I've done since then about 3,000 hours because once I started making the film and doing that, then I didn't, anyway. I believe you. So anyway- There are also B12 analogs in the soil that aren't absorbed and utilized like true B12. Great. But again, you don't- But- Can we admit the two things that you touched on so far you got wrong? Absolutely that it's proven that cattle do receive B12 under whatever circumstances. I don't know whether it's because they're grass fed or grain fed. I'm assuming they're feedlot animals that don't get proper nutrients from soil, don't get proper nutrients. If you're getting these grain fed, soybean fed cattle and they're just pouring this dried out shit into a bucket, these animals are not grazing and they're likely deficient in a lot of different things. Okay, and that's why- There's also, they've always been supplementing their dye with minerals, supplementing their dye with vitamins. Right, and that's the funny thing. People are like, oh, well, let's just take the extreme end of a plant-based diet, vegans, right? So people say, oh, well, vegans have to take a supplement. Well guess what? You're supplementing anyway. You're just doing it indirectly. You are eating that kind of animal. Like 99% of the beef, for example. Yes, somewhere around there, 97 to 99. Yeah, whatever. So the vast majority. So where people are getting it, you're supplementing. You're not just supplementing B12, you're supplementing D in the animal. You're getting it from someone who supplements it in the feed of the animal and then you get it that way. Exactly. Generally not if you're eating grass fed beef, not if you're eating shellfish. Right, but that's only- But that's not what you mean, fish. But let's not- You love to point to grass fed beef again. But let's put it chicken. I love chicken. But let's just admit that you made a mistake. Can you just admit that you made a mistake? About B12. Well, both of those things. B12 in cattle and then you have a third point. So we had the B12 in cattle. You said there was zero evidence about that. You said there was no evidence about being able to get it from water and from dirt, which again, I proved you to be wrong. And the third thing that you said- I said that there's no evidence that humans primarily got their B12 from eating from soil and water, which is what you said in the quote. No, I didn't. You're misrepresent- again, he's misrepresenting and he's wrong, Joe. You've got to admit that in this case- Well, it's clearly wrong about B12 being given to cattle. I mean, we showed three different supplements. This is the main issue. It says before industrial farming, farm animals and humans could get B12 by eating traces of dirt on plant foods or by drinking water from rivers or streams. So you don't think that people will get the idea from hearing that, that we never needed to consume animal products to get B12 and we only could get plenty from eating soil. So where is the evidence for that other than the one study that you showed there? That's because most evidence of vegans, even vegans who are supplementing- These are modern vegans, right? He's talking about something- But you see what? He's going off on a track here because he got two things wrong. I agree with you on this because his statement is essentially saying that the reason why we don't get it today is because of- We sanitize and repesticize. So your third point, I said this, you took issue with my claim. And up to 39% of people tested, including meat eaters, are low in B12. As a result, the best way for humans to get enough B12, whether they eat animal foods or not, is simply take a supplement. Then you said he didn't provide a reference for that, so it's hard to check. But again, it contradicts mounds of evidence on B12 efficiency. So can you bring up slide 50, please, Jamie? You said that I didn't provide a reference. But in the bottom left, where we put all of the references, and I made a claim about the scientific research- Oh, well, it's covered by the- It'll go away in a second. Okay. Allegedly. There you go. Okay. So first of all, there's the reference. You said you didn't have a reference. Would you admit that you were wrong? Yeah, I missed that. Okay. Three times wrong about B12. Okay. So can we just go into your study? Sorry, your e-book on B12. You basically said, I don't know where you got that study from. Your B12 e-book opens with the exact same study. So can you put up slide 51, please, Jamie? Okay. Is that your e-book on the left? Yes. Okay. You rounded up to 40, but I kept it at 39. Okay. I was being specific. B12 deficiency is far more common than most healthcare practitioners and the general public realize. Data from the Tufts University Framingham Offspring Study suggests that 40% of people between the age of 26 and 83 have plasma B12 levels in the low normal range, a range at which many experience neurological symptoms. That was the opening statement of your B12 e-book. And you claimed that you couldn't find the evidence of that study. No disagreement that B12 deficiency is an issue. I talked about that on my website. That's not what you said on the last time you were on Joe's podcast. You said, I don't know, you didn't provide a reference for that, so it's hard to check, but it contradicts the evidence. If that's not reflective of the preponderance of evidence, why did you open your e-book with it? It's not. Okay. So there's two different issues here. One is, do omnivores get B12 deficiency? Yes, they do. Okay. And 40% of people test it. In this study. Which is one of you referenced. That's right. And there are many, I'm not saying the study is bad. I'm just saying let's look at all of the other. You said that I didn't provide a reference, but did you, do you write your own e-books, by the way? I do. And you don't remember that study? No. I write a lot. James, do you know how, do you have any idea how many articles I've written over the years? Do you remember every study from every article? I don't know if you're right. No, I don't. Because I'm a combative trainer. And that's the thing. Do you not feel like, I'm a combative trainer. You yourself recognize that you're not a nutrition expert, right? You said that at the beginning. I'm not a nutritionist. I have master's level training in nutrition. So there's two issues here. So you've got a number of things wrong about B12. There's two issues here. What does that specifically mean, like master's level training in nutrition? Right. Thank you, Joe. California acupuncturists have a four-year master's program, which includes a lot of medical sciences and nutrition research methodology, et cetera, because we're considered primary care providers in the state of California. So the training is a lot different than it is in other places. So there's the question of, can omnivores develop B12 deficiency? Yes, they can. If you go and look at the rest of the e-book, it's because of things like SIBO. You'll actually accept higher ranges of what would be considered potentially deficient, right? Yes. You'll say like 300, 400 might be deficient. So that would mean that even more people were deficient, right? Now I'm not arguing that vegans can be more deficient than omnivores, but can I just go to slide 52? Can I go to slide 52? So what is the question here if you're not arguing that B12 deficiency is more common in vegans than omnivores? I'm pointing out that you... Because that is what clinically makes the difference. If someone is B12 deficient, then they develop... I think I'm not prepared to get to that. I will get to that. You said that like the four or five claims that I made about B12 were patently false. I've already pointed out three of the things that you got wrong out of the five. And you are the one that like is recommending and telling people what to eat. I am a combatives trainer and my facts in this case are the facts. This doesn't change anything about the facts. I'm recommending... No, it does because it's really dangerous. ... is still that people get enough B12 and that they're less likely to do that on a vegetarian and vegan diet. And there's lots of studies showing that. Can an omnivore develop B12 deficiency? Absolutely. I see it in my practice. And nearly all of the people that were... Not the vast majority. No, no, no, no. The vast majority of that 40% were meat eaters. You didn't reference the study by the way. That's only because there are more meat eaters in the general population. I agree. That has nothing to do with the fact that meat eaters are getting more B12 deficiency. I'm not arguing. We've got all of these studies about homocysteine, 9 out of 10 reviews that have shown higher homocysteine levels in vegans and vegetarians. Can we stick to the point that he made last time as I'll never get to rebut? Okay. So when you referenced the Framingham study, you didn't link to the study. You linked to an article from the US there about the study. And that study said, oddly, the researchers found no... Again, this is the opening statement of your e-book references this study. But you didn't mention this part. Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry and fish intake, even though those foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. It's not because people aren't eating enough meat to get their B12. Like I said, the vitamin isn't getting absorbed. So this backs up my claim that the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement. Now Chris will just say, for 60... Can I just finish on this point? You can rebut. Go ahead. So your claim was, well, people can just go and get... So you agree that... No, I would say that vegans that don't supplement and omnivores, there's a lot more deficiency in vegans, right? Like it's a nutrient of concern that vegans should be cautious of. I agree with that. That's pretty much universally right. So, but even if you don't accept the 40% number, even though that you said that... I didn't say I didn't accept that. Okay, but it doesn't matter whether you accept it or not. You've even said that we should consider higher levels of B12 division. So it would make even more. But that doesn't really matter. The point is that you were saying that... Where was I going? This. Hang on. They're saying the vitamin's not getting absorbed and that B12... Oh, so my point was it's safer to just take a B12 supplement. And for the general population in the world, that is the best recommendation. You'll say you can go to your doctor and get a $60 blood test and test for B12 and then you can decide whether you need a supplement or not. May I stop you guys both here? Why isn't it getting absorbed? If there is a higher level of vitamin B12 and fish and... There's other factors that inhibit the absorption. So what are those factors? SIBO is one likely possible... People's conditions, but also in the food itself. Dacterial overgrowth in the small intestine. So Joe, so basically... But we still have the data here. No, no. Can I just go back to the argument about... Because I said the best, safest way for everyone to get B12 is to take a supplement. You say, well, you can just spend $60 and get a blood test. But you've got to recognize in the world, not everybody can afford $60. Absolutely. Okay. So the safest way to get B12, whether you eat meat or not, is to take a B12 supplement. We know the only one. It's the surest way. Let's just all agree on that. It's the surest way. It's the surest way for sure. You've got studies that show 11% of omnivores have B12 depletion versus 77% of vegetarians and 92% of vegans. That's with using Holotranscobalamin, which is a much more sensitive marker of B12 deficiency than serum B12, which is really problematic. And then you have 9 out of 10 comparisons of homocysteine that found higher levels of homocysteine in vegetarians and omnivores and higher levels in vegans compared to vegetarians. And homocysteine is also a more sensitive marker than serum B12. So there's four stages of B12 deficiency. And serum B12 will only go down out of range in the fourth and final stage of B12 deficiency. So these other studies that I shared on the last show are looking at Holotranscobalamin, which was the most sensitive marker of B12 depletion. It's not technically deficiency at that point. And then you have homocysteine and methylmalonic acid that are less sensitive than Holotranscobalamin, but more sensitive than serum B12. Okay. Okay. Can you bring up slide 54, please? Okay. And I need to show you. So not only have you got all the facts wrong so far about B12, but my claims, you said that they were all false and they weren't false, right? Every claim that I made so far was backed up by science. And you have admitted that you made mistakes. Okay. So this is your slide. This is your slide, right? This is because this is how I can show that he's handpicking these studies to make his claim. You said that 90% of vegans were deficient in... Let's read what it says. It says B12 depletion among omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans. We got to remember that most people are probably listening versus watching. Oh, sorry. Yeah. It's okay. So vegans, 92%. It says 77. Vegetarians, 77%. And omnivores, 11% for B12 depletion. But that study showed it was more like 40% of depletion immunology. Now that was across the board. I'm not trying to compare the two. I'm just trying to say your case by using this study is that 92% of vegans are deficient in B12 and omnivores are not... Not deficient. Depleted. Depleted, whatever. Okay. Whatever the number is. I'm not trying to pick apart this study. I agree with the study. Okay. Okay. Can you just go to the next slide, please, Chris? Next slide, 55. Okay. This is from the study. Okay. This is from 16 years ago, by the way. Okay. And a very small study from 16 years ago. And this is why I show you that he's handpicking the data that he uses. And this is where I go back to the fact that it's about the interpretation of the totality of evidence. And you can't really rely on someone that's not a nutrition expert handpicking studies to suit their bias. So this is what it said. In subjects who did not consume vitamins, the levels were what Chris said. Right? 11% in omnivores, 70%. So I would agree. Like, if you couldn't get B12 anywhere, you should incorporate some animal foods into your diet. Fair. Okay. But let's look at some other studies. So slide 56. And again, I'm only choosing a few. Certainly, they're in my favor. And I'm not saying that vegans don't have lower B12 levels because some people don't supplement. Right? I'm showing that you handpicked a study from 16 years ago. Slide 56. And this is for a newer study from 2018 with twice the sample size of the ones. And people now know you should take a B12 supplement. The studied markers indicate a generally sufficient cobalamin status independently of the diet preferences, lacto, over vegetarian, or vegan. Slide 57. Now this is a study that looked at runners in May of 2019, really current. And it feels like you might not have the most current data because you said to me in your email that nutrition is only one part of what you do and you have lots of other things that you're doing. Right? So slide 57. This is comparing vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores. And these are runners? Yeah. Recreational runners. Recreational runners, yeah. All three groups showed an adequate biomarker status of B12-related parameters. And then, slide 58, it would be. And this one not only backs up my point about vegans and plant-based eaters, but also that supplement users are better. So the vitamin B12 status of supplement users of vegans and omnivores was higher compared to the non-supplement users. And a higher proportion of non-supplement users had B12 parameters outside the reference range. They were low. So again, that's more evidence that people, it's a good idea to supplement in general because you just have higher levels. And consensus recommendations, after you get over 50, you get lower intrinsic... It's a water-soluble vitamin anyway, right? Yeah, but after 50, you lose intrinsic factors, so you can't absorb as much. Right, but it's not dangerous to have higher levels. So even if you... No, no, no. Yeah, exactly. It's a good thing to supplement, period. Right. And the blanket recommendations. So every single thing that I said in the B12 statement is true and backed up by... Jamie, bring up slide 59 for me. If we're looking at totality of evidence, let's look at more evidence. Totally. But again, I'm not pointing those three studies out to say there's not more. I'm saying that you handpicked a study where vegans were not... No, I didn't handpick a study, James. There's many studies here. No, you picked one where they were not taking vitamins. And I agree. So we agree that people on plant-based diets... Should take vitamin. For vitamin B12. I see what you're saying. And we agree that most people are getting their B12 supplement in any way, just in directly through animals. Fair enough? Fair enough if you follow the diet that these animals were on where they were... Which is the most majority of people. And again, I would say, look, if you want to eat 95% plants... Do we know how common it is for them to supplement animal diet with B12? Is it a rare thing that is due to metabolic condition? No, no. With cattle, it's lower because it's a lot of... Much lower. It's not that rare. Well, it's lower, but it's not super rare because a lot of soil is deficient in cobalt. And cows need to consume the cobalt to manufacture the B12 in their rumin. So it's more of a side effect of mineral and nutrient deficient soils for cows? For cows, for ruminants, but not for pigs and chickens and that sort of stuff. Vegans have higher homocysteine levels than omnivores. Non-attempt comparisons found. Higher homocysteine levels in vegetarians and omnivores and higher levels in vegans and vegetarians. Right. The prevalence of hyperhomocysteine... Homocystinemia among vegetarians may actually be higher than that among non-vegetarians already diagnosed with heart disease. So that's nine of 10 comparisons. That's not hand picking one study. That's nine out of 10 comparisons that have been done on this topic. Right. And the out... Like you said before, we shouldn't just look at the markers, we should look at the outcomes. Right? And the outcomes is that... The vegans and vegetarians... The vegans and vegetarians with higher homocysteine levels do not have increased risk of cardiovascular disease or diabetes or death from those or from cancer. I didn't make the claim that they do from that study. We're talking about B12 and homocysteine being a marker of B12 efficiency here. And Chris, I am showing that you picked a study from 2016 which have a very small sample size which... That was nine out of 10 comparisons right there. That was not the only study that I showed. That was in homocysteine. No, I'm not saying that you picked that study. I am saying that when you came to B12, all of the statements that I made in the film were true and you said that they were patently false and you were wrong. I didn't... Joe, come on. Listen, I've come in here... I've said it already. Yeah. No, I just want to make sure... You're correct. Right. Because I've come in here and people are saying, oh, what are you going to say to that debunk? Chris did not debunk the film. He made misrepresentations of our claims and he got things factually wrong. Well, he certainly seems to have gotten it factually wrong that animals, particularly cows, are not given B12 supplements. He certainly seems to have gotten it factually wrong that at least some of the B12 that people would be able to get in the past, they got from water and soil. And that 40% of people are divisionally involved and that the best way to get B12 is the supplement. So he got everything... I'm still... So can I just finish? I don't agree with the best way to... Can I just finish? Yes. I know, but you're wrong. So the thing is, I have proven that he got three or four things factually wrong. About B12. Right. And I am a combatives instructor. Okay. I've heard that. Right. But I'm just saying, I'm putting myself down. Yes, I understand. I'm not like a super intelligent guy. Well, you are very intelligent. I've said that before. And what you did is you did research on these very important subjects and you acquired a lot of data. So this is what people do when they go to school. I mean, it's like the difference between someone who's educated and not educated is not whether or not they go to a specific place. It's whether or not they absorb the information and when they study. And if you said you studied a thousand hours before the film and 3000 cents, then you're obviously educated. You understand what you're talking about. So anyway, you got things factually wrong about B12. So to the people listening or watching, do you really want to put the interpretation of the data in the hands of someone that just got so many things wrong about B12? Well, he got things wrong about your assertions about B12. Yeah, I made four or five claims. So the claims still stand that vegetarians and vegans have much higher rates of B12 depletion or deficiency than omnivores. The bulk of the studies show that... If they're supplementing, they do not. If they're supplementing, they don't. Of course not. But if they don't supplement, they do. Right, but everyone agrees. But there's no disagreement. Right. Vegans are vegetarians and anyone over 50 and most like the safest way, and you're now disputing the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement. It's the best way to get B12. It's the surest way to get B12, but it's not necessary for many people. Right. It's not necessary for people to afford to get blood tests, which is not most of the world. Like we're sitting in America in a nice like air conditioned room and we've got cars and we drove here and we can afford to go to the doctor. Like the best way to get B12 is to take a supplement, period. And you're wrong if you think otherwise. If you can afford... Yeah, sure. If you can afford blood tests every six months... So we're going to get B12 supplements to everybody around the world soon? That's expensive, right? Here's the thing. If you have a diet that gives you the ample amount of B12... Then you don't need a supplement. Sure. Then you don't need a supplement. Sure. What you're saying is that blood tests are expensive, so you should take an expensive supplement? No, they're not expensive. B12? No, it's like if you buy it in bulk, it's like $2 a year. But no, I'm not saying that. A year? Yeah, yeah. If you buy it in bulk... $2 a year? If you buy in bulk... Where the fuck you buy your bionic... If you buy some bulk... Really? Yeah, you've got it. But the trick is you got to like, you'd have to split it with a bunch of people because it's like years worth of supply. Jesus Christ. So, no, the argument is that... I feel like I should just donate to the world. If it's only $2 a year, I feel like I could hook a lot of people up. I've also shown that in the study that you presented in your e-book, stated that they weren't absorbing it as well from animal products. I'm not saying there's not B12 in animal products. And also, we have to remember one last thing, that the B12 that people are getting in animal products, it was supplemented in the first place. In some cases. Not in cases. Not in wild, not in fish, not in grass fed, not in shellfish. Not as much in the... In the vast majority of animal products that people are eating, B12 was supplemented. And so I'm just saying, the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement. In the vast majority? Is that true? Yeah, you think the vast majority of people are eating wild caught fish and... Yeah, but I don't know how many animals are actually getting those supplements. All of the chickens. All of the chickens. All of the chickens. All of the chickens. But that's... Chickens are omnivores. They're not fed omnivorous diets for the most part, unless they're free range chickens. Have you ever seen a chicken fuck up a mouse? It's pretty stunning. Yeah. Yeah, they're carnivorous little monsters. Then chickens, and when you get them and you get those eggs and the eggs are like a really dull yellow, those are animals eating grain only. Those are vegetarian chickens. That's not what they want to eat. What they want to eat is worms and bugs and rodents. Yeah, they're not living in their natural state. Right. In their natural state, they probably don't need to have supplementation. This is sort of an argument against vegetarian diets for chickens, really. Because chickens aren't really supposed to eat that way. And feedlot for beef. Feedlot for beef, exactly. They're not supposed to eat grain either. Can we get to protein? Because I think if we miss protein, then we've done a few of the service. No, we're not going to miss it. We have plenty of time. Cool. So with the B12, you made some excellent points and you definitely cleared up what was misrepresented by what you said. Right. And it's really why I really appreciate you having me on. Because you guys did like a three hour debunk, right? And there was just a lot of things that were factually wrong. And there's more that I can point out. Okay. Let's get into the folks. I really appreciate having me on. My pleasure. My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.