Wild Caught Meat is Better Than Beef | Game Changers Debate

I really appreciate Chris as much as we disagree. I really appreciate you coming on and giving me the opportunity and you being here. Let's talk about protein. I know I'm getting like emotional and something. I'm annoyed that people are like, I'm trying to take seven years. Yeah, I get it. Cool. So, you want to talk about protein and what the issues are? Yes. There's still also just the red meat and dairy thing outstanding too. Oh, whether or not red meat's bad for you? Yeah, we never really cleared that up. Well, why do you think that red meat is bad for you? We can go with protein. But let's finish that. Because we really should finish that. We can always move into protein because I'm sure protein is going to be a long discussion. Well, I know, I think it's going to happen here. So we can talk about red meat. I've shown that like some of the individual things like heme iron, for example, are shown to be pro-inflammatory. And by the way, just to back you up, let me see where the slide is. Is pro-inflammatory necessarily correlated with poor health? Because sometimes things that provide inflammation, your body has a positive reaction. Yeah, it's a hormetic stressor. So they're things like exercise, you exercise, you create. Yeah, hormesis, right? Right, sure, soma. Yeah. And it's the same thing where he'll sort of try and show the fish, you know, the TMAO, for example, you'll say, well, how can TMAO be bad? We'll get to that. We'll get to that. So why do you think red meat is bad for you? Well, TMAO is one of the things in red meat, just like heme iron that I just showed is inflammatory. But heme iron is associated with cardiovascular risks and heme iron is found in meat. And eating plants in a healthy diet pattern. It offsets it. Absolutely, yeah. Is there evidence that eating meat by itself is associated with cardiovascular disease? Nobody ever has eaten meat by itself. What about these carnivore diet people? Well, there's no research in the carnivore. Those guys are the canaries in the coal mine, aren't they? There's no research on that. So that's one of my people just eating all meat diet. Yeah, there's not. Yeah, I mean, I mean, we both agree, like, let's just create a false dichotomy for us. If there was a kind of like all animal products diet, not just carnivore, but eggs and all this stuff, and then there was a fully plant based diet, subliminal would be 12. Which one would you advocate? A false dichotomy. I'd probably pick the plant diet. Probably. Although I would be concerned about nutrient deficiencies. Yeah, I've never advocated for the carnivore diet. I said as much on the last show. But that says something about plants, right? Plants are awesome. Right. So we agree on that. Yeah, he's never had anything wrong. No, no, no. What all he's ever said was that eliminating all animal products from your diet is probably not healthy unless you follow a very strict routine where you make sure that you have all your bases covered nutritionally. That's what Chris has said from the jump. Yeah, I would extend that and just say that I don't think there's strong evidence suggesting that including some animal products in your whole foods plant based diet is harmful. That's where we seem to have an interest. And I even said that the range of that can vary tremendously. It could be 5% for someone who's just eating mostly plant based diet and they're eating some shellfish and organ meats for the nutrient density. Or you could have someone who eats more animal products and depends on the person and what their needs are. I go with that first half and the second half. But just to back up what Joe does, slide 62. Because I mentioned this earlier, but we didn't put a slide on. But I think the graphic, again, I know most people are listening. So if maybe Joe, you could describe it to people. This is in postprandial inflammatory responses to a modern versus traditional meat meal. So this is the kangaroo. This is kangaroo meat versus beef. Wagyu beef, is that how you pronounce it? Wagyu. So you'd recognize that marks in CRP, TNF alpha and IL-6 are inflammatory markers. Yeah. Okay, good. So I just want to point out that, yeah, if you're going to eat 90% plants and you're going to eat the rest of it from animal products, I think that wild caught elk and elk and elk and kangaroo meat, stuff like that, would be the way to go by far. Well, it just makes sense. Just to show you, look at the, there's about half the inflammation roughly coming from the wild caught. Well, that makes sense because most of the time we're dealing with, when you're dealing with beef, you're dealing with this grain fed, unhealthy animal. When you're talking about Wagyu beef, that's a dying animal. I mean, if you saw a person whose muscle tissue looked like a Wagyu steak, you'd be like, bro, you got to get on a fucking diet. You know, I mean, really, but if you saw like, you know, an athlete, if you looked at an athlete's muscle tissue, it would look like a piece of elk, most likely. It would look very lean and healthy and dense. So anyway, I just want to point out that one, that shows a couple of things that shows that meat does create inflammation. I would like to see this on grass fed meat as opposed to this feedlot bullshit. No, totally. But even if it matched the, you know, the kangaroo meat, we're still seeing inflammation there. And yeah, and certainly like he said, I agree. If you're going to eat animal foods, I think it's wise, timing wise, to eat a lot of plant foods with that, those animal foods. Right? Well, I definitely think that- If you're going to eat animal foods, you should eat a lot of plants. There's also a lot of benefits to it in terms of fiber, in terms of the bio- Got micro biotic. Yeah. There's a lot of benefits to having these fermented vegetables as well, you know, things like kimchi and having things that provide you with good probiotics. All these things, there's great benefit to a lot of plant foods. Yeah. And people on plant-based diets just end up naturally getting more fiber. For sure. And people are deficient in fiber, right? And if you look at like the paleolithic period, you'd be looking at like maybe a hundred grams of fiber. I agree. Very high fiber intake. And people on plant-based diets get more fiber than people on other diets. As long as you're eating healthy, we both agree. Eating like pasta and pizza and bullshit. But just to be fair though, even in vegans and vegetans and all of the studies, they're still getting more fiber despite the fact that you and I would agree they're not eating the healthiest diet. Overall, overall, completely plant-based people are the only people that would fall within the recommended BMI range. They're the people that get the most fiber. BMI range, body mass index? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah, but body mass... It's not a great measure, right? That's a shitty one, right? That makes me obese. Right. Yeah. There's a lot of nonsense to it. I agree. I agree generally that if you look at people who are on a vegetarian or vegan diet compared with people on the standard American diet, then they're going to have healthier... Right. But that's the standard American diet. If you take someone who's eating healthy plates of broccoli and kale and also has a piece of grass-fed meat, that's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about people who fall on their conscious diet. No, I totally agree. Of course, you're going to see markers. For example, the longest study on a paleo diet, right, had a two-year follow-up. And they had improved... They'd lost body fat. They had improved blood markers. What was really interesting is, hey, they were told to eliminate dairy, right? So you cut out dairy. They were told to reduce their amount of or cut out completely processed plant foods, like white flour and sugar and all this type of stuff. They were told to increase their fruits and vegetables. And they were told to increase their meat consumption. And they got improved health markers all across the board. Now, what was interesting is, at the end of the two years, what they found was that people had not stuck with the meat recommendations. So they kept their meat recommendations the same. They got out processed junk food, right, and trans fats and stuff that you'd all agree we should get out of our diet, right? They took out milk out of their diet, and they increased the amount of plant foods. So it's very clear that the benefit did not come from increasing meat consumption. It came from increased plant food consumption. Or decreasing bullshit. Or eliminating... I think the benefit is decreasing bullshit. Right. Yeah, no, it's a two-fold thing, right? You cut out things that are inflammatory, and you put in things that are anti-inflammatory. You cut out things that are low in antioxidants. You incorporate things that are high in antioxidants. So that was the major benefit. It wasn't from increased meat consumption. Who's saying it is from increased meat consumption? Not me. No, I'm just saying that was the benefit of a paleo diet, is going in a more whole food plant-based direction. Right, but I think that's what everyone says. The idea is that you eliminate processed foods. You eliminate sugar. I agree. You eliminate... Totally agree. You eliminate things that are just filled with... But we know that it's not just... It's a two-fold difference when you incorporate whole plant foods. There's the opportunity cost. So you're getting rid of crap. In my personal opinion, and based on the consensus, you're replacing both highly processed foods and animal foods, and you're incorporating more whole plant foods. And that is the scientific consensus, is to eat a predominantly plant-based diet. You could say the same thing about the benefits you see with vegetarian and vegan studies comparing with standard American diet. I agree. You're removing a lot of the crap. I agree. But what studies have you got comparing a NutriVore diet to a whole food plant-based diet? We don't have them. So we have to infer. And when we infer, we have to rely on experts that are experts in their field. Right? We don't turn to Chris and go, okay, can you tell us more about nutrition and anthropology and urology than all of these experts? I think that's... I agree. You can just listen to me, but I don't think it's genuine to suggest that there's a consensus that a whole food plant-based diet is a better choice than a plant-based diet that also contains some animal products. I agree with you that we have no studies on that, and we probably won't, unfortunately, in the near future because... Right. Especially for long-term outcomes, right? Because you can't put people on for 40 years. Yeah. They're not going... So I agree that it's hard. And again, I've said before that we should be getting the vast majority of our calories from whole plant foods. I think that there's enough in the literature to show... And the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics recognizes that completely vegan diets are helpful for all life stages, including for athletes. I think that there's sufficient evidence to go 100%, but I'm not telling people that they should be doing that. I'm saying people can eat whatever they want. But I think we both agree that people should be getting out junk food, right? Soda and trans fats. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.