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Julia Mossbridge, PhD, is a cognitive neuroscientist, author, and educator. She is the founder and president of American Electrodynamics, the co-founder and chief science officer of The Institute for Love and Time, and a senior advisor for American DeepTech. Her latest book, “Have a Nice Disclosure!,” is available now. https://www.youtube.com/@JuliaMossbridge https://www.applied.love https://www.juliamossbridge.com
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Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
Hello, Julia.
Hello, Julia.
Pleasure to meet you.
Yeah, I'm very excited.
So you said you had questions for me?
Yeah.
We can start with your questions.
Excellent.
First of all, tell everybody what you do.
Okay, let me just change the angle of this.
Just so folks just tuning in right now, we're like, who is this young lady?
Thank you.
What do you do?
I'm a year younger than you.
Then you're young.
Nice.
What do I do?
I was trained as a scientist, cognitive neuroscience and computer science, and
did some AI stuff,
did some stuff with the human brain in terms of trying to understand how time
works in the human brain.
And then I got really interested in how funky time works in the human brain,
like precognition,
which is, of course, predicting future events in ways that we don't normally
think about.
That's how I found out about it.
That is the Popular Mechanics article.
Yeah, I believe so.
Yeah.
And then a bunch of other stuff that I looked at.
And then a bunch of other stuff, yeah.
Yeah.
And then I got interested in just the idea of what we call exceptional human
performance.
So I actually don't think it's that exceptional.
I think people have these capacities, and they've been dampened down.
And they're in us, and they can be developed.
And some people have them just sort of naturally.
I'm a person who has some of them just naturally, not all of them.
But there are people all over who have these different gifts.
And how does that work?
And so that became a question that was interesting to me.
Well, it's always interesting when this question is asked by an actual
scientist.
So you approach it by, let's try to gather data.
Let's try to find out what we can actually show.
Because so many people have feelings that there's something else.
Like, you have intuition.
You have some sort of pre-knowledge of events and some feeling of something.
You're thinking of someone, and they call you.
Is that real?
You know, that kind of stuff has always puzzled people.
So it's always fascinating when someone like yourself actually spends a lot of
time studying it
and trying to gather data and trying to show what's real and what's not
and what you can actually show.
I agree it's fascinating.
I'm not sure it matters.
So, I mean, my experience has been that sort of regardless of how much time I
spend studying it
and how much I see it and how much I can test different controls to make sure
it's not this,
that, or the other thing and that it really is getting information from the
future
or it really is telepathy, people still kind of don't, in the science world,
tend to just ignore it.
Or it actually is actively suppressed.
I mean, there's some papers that I've published that just won't get listed in
Google Scholar,
even though they're in peer-reviewed journals with other articles that do get
listed in Google Scholar.
So there's -- it's frustrating.
And who cares because it's just an academic complaining, but I'm also not an
academic.
I also want to build things.
I'm into making stuff.
So I got my PhD at these tier one research institutions like Northwestern.
I got my master's at UCA San Francisco.
I did my postdoc at Northwestern.
And so fancy-dancey institutions.
So I learned a lot about how to think and how to write and how to do these kind
of experiments.
And I know what I'm seeing, and I keep seeing it.
And other people who study the same stuff keep seeing it.
But it is -- it is inside of me, or there's something inside of me that wants
to create things with this.
Okay, so this is happening.
People have these capacities.
You know, they're actually useful.
What can we do with them?
And it turns out you can do a lot with them if you feel like you are allowed to
have them, if it doesn't feel like it's verboten, if it doesn't feel like
shameful, which is part of the cultural piece.
Or foolish.
Or foolish, which is part of the questions I wanted to ask you.
Okay.
So what I notice when you talk with people is you're -- you seem like a tough
guy, but you're really sensitive.
Like, you're an incredible, obviously an incredible listener, and you learn all
these things, and you're putting together -- just this is my impression -- you're
putting together a kind of a map of the world, like a map of knowledge of the
world, through all these different people's eyes.
And my question for you is, how do you see culture shifting, because I think
you're really sensitive to it, and I think you're kind of like one of these
signal fish that are at the --
And you notice what's happening in the environment, and you're going to guide a
school of fish accordingly?
So do you think that the culture is shifting towards sort of better use of
these, I guess, exceptional -- or these natural capacities that we already have?
Or do you think that we're shifting away from it, and we're going to run away
in fear?
Hmm.
That's a good question.
Okay.
So I think that because of conversations like the ones that you've had, and the
ones that I've had, the ones that are available online, I think people get a
much deeper understanding of so many different topics, and so many different
things, than has ever been available through whatever you want to call the
mainstream media.
And when you have these inherent prejudices in higher learning, whether it's
people that don't want to be foolish, so they don't want to entertain certain
notions, or they don't want to accept certain things because it goes against
things that they've taught, and things that they've wrote by, or they don't
want to entertain certain notions, or they don't want to accept certain things
because it goes against things that they've taught, and things that they wrote
by.
We have a problem of ego, and ego becoming a wall to gathering more information,
or getting a better detailed map of the landscape.
And I think there's way more people that are pondering these ideas, and having
these conversations, and thinking about these things, than has ever been before.
And I think that's one of the really beautiful things about the internet. The
internet has made much more information available, and many more people are
thinking about these things in ways that, you know, if you were in an
environment where your career depended upon you following certain lines and
certain narratives, you wouldn't pursue that, because that would be detrimental
to your own personal interest.
Like, if you wanted to get ahead in academia, and all of a sudden, you're
talking about psychics, and premonition, and you know, people are like, "Oh,
Julia's a fucking loon." Like, why? You know? But you're courageous, and you
see value in these things. And because you can come on here and talk about it,
instead of just addressing a class, or selling a book that's going to reach a
few thousand people, we can have a conversation where 10 million people are
going to listen.
10 million people are gonna listen and so then those 10 million people are
gonna go to work and they're gonna tell their friends at work like
This is you know, you know how that feeling that you get or sometimes you know
something's gonna happen and happens like that might be real
And then there was this lady she was on the Joe Rogan podcast and she's not and
so that
Opens up people to this idea that you don't have to worry about being a fool
because
That's what a lot of people worried about that's what it was a big hurdle
Talking about aliens UFOs like all my life all my life
I've always been fascinated by UFOs and aliens, but I don't mind being a fool
Like I I was fascinated by Bigfoot forever kind of abandoned that for the most
part
But I like weird stuff. I'm interested in it and I don't I'm not a person that
needs to be taken seriously
It's not my job. I'm literally a comedian like you can make fun of me. I'll
make fun of me. It's fine
I don't it doesn't my my future doesn't rely on people taking me seriously
So I think having that ability to have conversations
About all kinds of different things is really changed the way the entire world
is
Discussing just reality like every everything about reality from
quantum computing to alien life to
International politics to the way human beings misrepresent each other purposefully
for their own gains like
What is all this like and why?
Why is it taking so long to have so many discussions about this?
So I think that's if I have a purpose in this world. It's like I'm an antenna
for that
Yeah, I tell I'm just popping because it's such a great purpose because you
know
The reason I fell in love with science was it's about discovery. It's about not
knowing
It's about being foolish. I had this I was just thinking today. I had this
amazing high school
Biology teacher who had us go outside and he gave us these little note cards
and he said on one side of the note card
I want you to write a question about your environment look around you know at
the plants or whatever pick something the dirt whatever and
Write a question you think Einstein would ask about this
And then he said okay now flip it over and I want you to write a question that
like a two-year-old would ask if a two-year-old good, you know, right?
And my favorite side was the two-year-old and at the end he said now Einstein
was more like the two-year-old
he said Einstein was full of wonder and confusion and
Uncertainty and he just asked questions and imagine things and that's how I
want you all to learn to be and I was just yes
That's a good teacher
That's amazing teacher and and so then I but I went to graduate school and I
went in the world of academia and I was like there's all this pressure to
You know, you write your grant after you're you've done about three-quarters of
the work
So that as soon as you get the grant then you can publish the papers that go
with the grant
So you're not really discovering anything you're kind of talking about here's
what I already know
But I'm acting like I haven't looked at it yet or and there's pressure to
Follow as you said follow the line of thinking
For both funding and for your career mm-hmm and you know, I was told very
nicely by wonderful people who wanted to support me
That if I took the stuff about psychic stuff off my resume, I would have a
perfectly good resume for
I was like are you crazy?
This is the stuff that's actually interesting. Why would I want to take it off?
But that's what took me away from academia and made me realize I had to put one
foot in building things I could leave a foot in academia
but I had to I had to build shit because
Academia is so slow they can learn something and then ten years later. They're
like do you think it's true?
And then 20 years later, they're like maybe we can make something with it and
it's like
But at the same time you have to be careful. You don't get to just say well
I just know people are psychic and therefore you know right screw it so
So yeah, there's this dance. There's this dance there, but I when you were
saying this thing about
That you look people afraid to be foolish. I mean I wonder how much it helps me
to come from a family of
Very foolish eccentric people. I'm sure it helps a lot. I'm not afraid to be
foolish. In fact, I just know that I am
Well, I think intelligent kind people don't mind talking to people that say
Occasionally say foolish things
Well, or things that could be perceived as foolish because they're willing to
take chances and look at these obscure topics and
strange phenomenon and just
and not not worry about the stigma that's attached to these subjects that keeps
Supposedly intelligent or serious people people that want to be considered as
serious people
Yeah, yeah from discussing well like when you said the thing about Bigfoot
Yeah, and and I laughed a little bit that was that was like a reflex laugh from
academia
So that's the fun one well, it's a fun one
It is and I have friends who study Bigfoot and other cryptids and and in us in
a scholarly way
And I had to learn not to laugh like it's like we have our little discomfort
and then we laugh because the whole I would I want to be taken
seriously and stuff but you know interestingly the ufo whole world got accepted
into the mainstream
Land of things that possibly exist before the psychic world
But the psychic world has been studied like by the intelligence community, etc.
since openly
Since like the 50s, right whereas the ufo world was supposed to be oh, we don't
care about that
And then only recently has come to the fore so it's really interesting to see
this balance. They're both related
And and they're both have their own processes of disclosure, but it's just
interesting the culturally. It's interesting to see this instinct
To be right as you called it and I feel like that's I was
There's the pbs
Convention is in town right now in the hotel where I'm staying and I and I I
gotta say I think that's still largely very left
Leaning organization and I was raised up in a really left-leaning household,
but the thing that really
pisses me off about the left is this
wanting to be smart
and
Proving that you're smart and the thing that pisses me off about the right is
wanting to be right and I feel like
Both of those things fail. Yes, I mean
Neither of them allows us to just discover. Okay, what's next like how can we
actually
How can we actually solve the problems that are going on instead of just
wanting our team to win? Yeah, or and so
It's interesting to me how the cultural change with
Science also relates to our politics
Yeah, I grew up in a very left-leaning household as well. My parents are still
very left
and um
I think that there is a real problem with
ideologies where
Especially in this country. We're so polarized. We have a right and a left and
I think most people are kind of in the middle somewhere
You know, and i'm i'm certainly in the middle. I'm probably like middle left.
That's where I kind of see myself
But if you like read about me, i'm like far right somehow or another, which is
I know it's interesting. I i'm i'm now independent i'm officially independent
because i'm like screw it
Yeah, I don't I do think those people are in the center and I think we need to
um
Get clarity on that you get to you get to say something that's different from
what either side is saying
Yeah, the problem with either side is you have to
Accept if you're going to accept if you're going to join one of their team
I had a bit about it my last comedy special that if you're going to join their
team you have to believe
All the things
Yeah, right and you have to kind of display them perform like you're performing
very good point, right?
Yeah, you have to you have to say all the right words
And if you say the wrong words you're cancelled and that happens on both sides
100% and you know the right was always complaining about the left doing it
But now the right's doing it
They're canceling each other about all kinds of stupid things and it's just a
it is
It's you know mark andreessen's talked about this that
They display all of the behavior that you get from cults
It's the same thing
communication
Yeah
Extreme following of doctrine
With no deviation whatsoever
Everyone's very performative that they are more in line with the doctrine than
you are
Ew
Yeah, and by the way academia is a lot like that. Oh, it's very much like that.
That's very disturbing
It is disturbing because these people were you're supposed to be open-minded
because how are you going to get to true?
I mean the idea is to get to truth, right? Yeah, how are you going to get to
truth?
If if you've decided well that person's asking this question, that's an
inappropriate question. Yes
Yeah, and it's also there's this thing about people being gatekeepers of
information
So like if you're an expert in a very particular subject and someone disagrees
with that people are like
I am a phd in the subject and let me tell you about this and I know what's
going on
It's so irritating and actually that bothers me when I go on shows and people
say oh, but you're a scientist and you study this
And it's like yeah, but could we not revere me for that reason?
Could we instead ask the question like does she do good work? Does she have
interesting thoughts?
You know does this seem reasonable?
Does it seem like she's after the you know moving towards the good those are
really the standards regardless of your degree?
and so
It worries me that we put so much reverence and scientists or whatever it are
experts
And I also see that there can be this problem where you go. Oh experts are all
full of shit
And then you know, you have to get like brain surgery and you're like I would
like a really good neurosurgeon
So there's kind of both
Oh 100% there's both I think the problem is human ego and the problem is that
even people that have like deeply studied subjects
The wanting the reverence and wanting people to defer to you wholly with no
questions whatsoever like as if you have
The entire database on whatever this thing this thing is settled this is
settled science
We know everything about it and that doesn't seem to be the case very often.
There's very few things that seem to be completely settled and
It's much more interesting to me when I talk to someone that their perspective
is
I'm a person that has spent an inordinate amount of time
Going over this stuff. And this is what I know. I might not know all of it
But this this is this is what we know and this is why we think this is what it
is and this is
so instead of like
having this ego and I see it
God, I see it from so many it's a very male thing too. It's a very male ego
thing to be like
the you know, the
Dominant force of the narrative, you know that they're the enforcer of the
narrative and you know
very
dismissive and very rude and
saying you know just
Insulting things about anybody that deviates from it instead of
Just saying this is why I think this is the case and this is what we've learned
over the years and this is
But having humility when you're dealing with especially when you're dealing
with something like cognitive
like anything
Involving consciousness anything involving the human mind. It's so complex.
There's so much going on and it's so
Biologically variable there's so many different people that have different ways
of thinking and their mind works differently
one of the more illuminating things about doing this pond this podcast is
Having so many different people in here and so many different conversations so
many unique and fascinating people, but they're all different
Yeah, yeah, you're you're like you're like
Tasting from all the different flavors of humanity and and it's a delight to
listen to but I
I sort of want to
Know what it's like to be in your brain as you start to so it's like you're a
sponge and you're soaking in all these points of view
So the model that you're building
I just I wonder a lot about what it's like to be different people and I imagine
the model that you're building of the world is really well informed
Hey, Jamie, could you turn down my um, oh, you could do it. There's a little
thing right there
We're like professionals. That's like your whole show
But yeah, I I think the model that you're building could be put to some really
powerful use
So i'm here to convince you to run for president. Oh god trying to get me
killed julia. How dare you?
No, I'm not interested in any job in any government whatsoever. I'm I like
doing this
Okay, I get it. But what you said about it's a really male thing. I think it's
better said to say um
it's a really um
Insecure male thing or yeah, it's an insecurity thing that happens more
probably to men because there's such a standard of you're supposed to be alpha
Everyone's supposed to be alpha right and for women. There's not that standard
or you're not, you know, right
And so there's more insecurity because everyone can't be alpha and what the
heck is alpha and so
I feel like
I I I have a desire for someone
Who has a sense of their own
Like a secure in their own masculinity
And their own femininity, which I think you have both. I hope you don't mind me
calling you out on that
I know that you're like have this reputation of being like total guy guy
But you have this I mean because you're a deep listener that's already a
feminine trait
And so isn't really yeah. Oh, yeah
Okay, yeah, I didn't know that I never thought of listening as being masculine
or feminine
Listening is a deeply feminine trait because you have to be relatively humble
to want to listen and the humility is a feminine trait
Yeah, no, it's just I don't I don't think of it as a feminine. Yeah, I don't
think listening is a feminine trait
Yeah, maybe i'm wrong. I think it's a kind of women are generally better
listeners. I mean that's really yeah
Depends on if you're in a relationship with them or not
It depends on who you're talking to
I don't know if that's true
I don't know if that's true. Let me see where i'm gonna get in
I think curious people genuinely curious people are better listeners. That's
what I think
And I don't think women or men are genuinely more curious. You're right
and
I think that there's a thing if you're always trying to prove that you're alpha
and I think men more susceptible to that
You know where you could not be a good listener because you want to make sure
you say the right thing
That's an insecurity thing and then I think there's more insecurity among men
because of those standards that are ridiculous
And so maybe that's what i'm talking about, but you're definitely right. I can
definitely think of men and women who are both
Crappy listeners and good listeners. So it's about the insecurity. It's about
the emotional maturity
I think it's also a learned thing that you know people have this desire
To show everyone how intelligent they are and how dominant they are in any
particular subject
And it's one of the most infuriating things about having conversations where
people aren't really talking to you
They're just trying to win whatever little
Verbal game yeah you're playing
They're trying to one-up you and they're trying to i've seen that yeah
It's gross and also just like it makes you want to leave. Yeah, it's not fun
It's not a fun conversation like i love talking to people way smarter than me.
Yeah, it's fun
Like i don't need like i can't be the smartest purpose i'm friends with elon i'm
definitely not the smartest person
I'm friends with a lot of people that are way smarter than me
So i'm just curious and i think
The world would be a lot better place if more people were curious and if you
embraced it and not and just
squash that
That that insecurity that makes you want to like puff your chest up and
See, I don't think you can squash it like I get
I also think the world would be a better place if more people were curious, but
I think the solution is I don't think any squashing anything works
like I
I think
I think you have to work through it
That's a better way to say it. Yeah
Then squashing it squashing it just means it's going to come up later as
garbage
Yeah, that's yeah, no, you said it better. Yeah, it's really just addressing
why you're insecure and for a lot of men
Um, there's there's just physical insecurity
And the physical insecurity is a real problem
But some of my favorite people are martial artists
And one of the reasons why is because they're the least insecure
Everyone's insecure in some way, but martial artists are dealing with that
insecurity
Literally on a daily basis
So like say jujitsu for instance
If you're training jujitsu if you go from white belt to black belt, you have to
get humiliated
thousands of times
If there's no ifs ands or buts about it there's if you're a white belt and you
train with a black belt, you're going to get humiliated or
dominated you're going to lose you have no chance and so by
Learning over and over and over and over again that you're not really special
And it's really just about the time you put in and then about getting better
and having the ability to objectively assess
Your position who you are in this this room of people that are trying to strangle
each other who you are in the world
Itself and I think a lot of people don't ever address that and so they run
around trying to
Posture and pretend there's something they're not pretend. They're smarter than
they are
They're more of an expert a subject. They're the one who should talk you should
listen
You know, there's a lot of that whenever people say just shut up and listen
like that's not
I'm not going to do that and I don't want to talk to anybody
I don't ever want anybody to do that if I'm talking well, yeah, because then
you're not having a conversation
That person doesn't exist exactly. You've just decided that person doesn't
exist. They don't matter
You just you've asserted dominance in the dumbest way possible, which is
intellectual
like
It is the dumbest way possible sure and and the funny thing is culturally we
kind of think that it's the smartest way possible
It's just a bunch of fools. Well, yeah
Yeah, yeah, and so with a lot of information, okay, but let's talk about what
what a better world would be so in a better world
In a better world if you're gonna start dominance you would like the martial
art what I love about martial art is
First of all, it's it's all mental
Almost all mental and then second
It's very similar to what happens when you go through and get your phd
You get beaten down and you realize you're not the smartest person in the room
And you're hanging out with all these other super smart people and then
You gotta learn to be like, okay, that's not what matters. So that's the good
part of of going nuts with school
but
but there's this um
false information
That it reminds me of when I was at ucsf and I went to go see this talk by this
famous scientist. I think he won a nobel prize
I forget his name
But he was an asshole and he gave his brilliant talk
But I couldn't pay attention to it because he was an asshole. He was being rude
to people
who asked questions. He was
Just dickish. I mean, I don't know how else to say it just like arrogant
Yeah, and I walked out and someone said to me one of my mentors said to me
You know, you have to learn to separate the personality from the information
that they're that they're giving and I said, you know
No, I don't like he's giving me all the information in his personality
Right. I don't need to learn to listen to that. I need to learn to say
Unlike all of you all I need to learn to say
I'm not going to hang out with people and put myself in the presence of people
Who are rude like that that's more important than their amazing intellect and I
somehow
Somehow we got to a place culturally where we think you can be
really mean or
dismissive or rude
And arrogant and that's fine because you're winning
And I feel like a better world would acknowledge that what's more important is
Oh love
Which is this connection where you actually acknowledge there's someone else
there, even if you like
Think they're an asshole, but still yeah, you know, like I wasn't practicing
love
I wasn't accepting him who he was
But I was in a place where the environment wanted me to just
ignore
Sort of the information I was getting about who this guy was and just say no
all that matters is his intelligence. Yeah
Though sometimes
You can learn a lot from people that are gross
Yeah, you know, and it's valuable to be able to put their personality aside and
listen to the actual information
But still in that moment though, I don't want to yeah
Well in that moment
In that moment, I was like 24 and I was a woman in a field where there are a
lot of guys and I was
Feeling
Like I have to have boundaries
You know, I have to learn to have boundaries and then later when I'm you know
Like now I'm postmenopausal and you know how postmenopausal women are we have
much more confidence
But you're not playing that game anymore
Yeah, no, right exactly. It's just like now. I'm like I can listen to
You know some asshole listen to what he's saying
But at the time it's like no like I have to stand up for something that I think
is important, right, you know
I
I'm not saying i'm better than i'm saying I had that experience that made me
see that there was this
level of
like sort of import placed on
The intellect and that had always been the case my family had always placed all
this level of import on the intellect
And I just kind of walked out of that. Well, it has to be balanced
like I think putting all of the
Emphasis on the intellect itself and ignoring the personality is kind of
like
The messenger is important like the message is important, but the the messenger
sucks
That that you know if if someone was yelling out the most amazing information
in the world
But they were singing it like a slayer song
I don't know
It's a bad example, but you know i mean like you know those death metal bands
where they just scream yeah, and you're like oh jeez
I gotta get out of here. It's not my thing right, but
It could be like the most interesting information, but the messenger sucks. It's
not fun to listen to it's not exciting
Or the messenger's arrogant or the messenger's rude or
It ruins the message. Yeah, you need both human beings need to communicate and
in order to communicate we need to
We need to establish that we're just two people
You know and if you have some information that I don't have I want to hear it
I don't want to like oh, she's saying too many smart things. I want to say
something smart to show i'm smarter than her
Well, I'll hold on there
You know, there's a lot of that and that's a lot of that in academia because
that is their entire identity
It's a chess game. Yes, yeah, but it's a chess game with pieces that are stunted
like they're not allowed to freely move
No kidding. Yeah, it is a cult. I mean that's the cult part. Yes, that's where
you leave and people feel sorry for you
And you're like I have my freedom. I'm so excited and they're like i'm so sorry
for you. Yeah, it's social hierarchies
It's gross. Yeah, and you know, I mean I think that's going to
exist
Whenever there's ego or whenever there's these the human dynamics of these
Bizarre creatures that we are where they would territorial apes with weapons
You know, they're like we're weird and we're always establishing some kind of
dominance whether it's intellectual dominance or
Wealth dominance or social hierarchy dominance like people love
That stuff they love it
Do we or so I they love to play it they love to pretend we love to pretend it
but do I mean do we really?
Well, that's why people name drop
That's why people want to have the the fanciest cars and the nicest watches
But is that really making them happy? No, it's not
So I don't know that people love it
I think people do it because they think it's gonna make them happy, but I don't
think they love it
Yeah, there's something to that
But there's there's probably something that some sociopaths feel
If they show up with a million dollar watch and a million dollar car and they
you know pull up in front of a giant house
It's bigger than anybody's like wow sure
I did it
But I think yeah, but that's rare. I think that's rare. Yeah
I think it's not lasting either
And then there's also a bunch of people that are on fucking pills
They don't even know what they like
Just running around in the fog of pharmaceutical cloud. That's the way they're
dealing with it
So it's like like I guess if we see it as like
There's this big problem, which is that I call this the human problem
No one knows how to be with themselves or others in any kind of harmony like
right harmony. This is good work
We don't know how to get to harmony right right and so
one way is for drugs and one way is prayer and one way is
the big car and the dominance and one way is
You know being addicted to your phone. I mean what you know none of them work
Right
But all of I mean that's not true. I think prayer works, but but
I think the only one that works is love and I think that's what prayer is about
but um
earnest prayer, but
We have to try I mean we're built to try to get to harmony
Apparently because we keep trying and so part of me wants to say
I'm of two minds part of me just says like we're trying the best we can and we
have all these faults
And then there's a part of me that says and we can do better
Well, we definitely can and I think that's one of the reasons why people hunger
for conversations because we're all trying to figure out how to do better
Yeah, the human mind is one of the most
Extraordinary things that's ever been studied and yet there's no guidebook and
how to use it
Because we still don't know do you know how much we don't know we know about as
much about the human mind
Now as we knew in 1991 when I first went to graduate school
I mean in neuroscience I mean the brain we know a lot more about the brain
We still don't know that much about it
We're still missing some basic pieces of like things like what's the neural
code?
How do these neurons actually communicate and how do we actually learn how do
we actually represent things in memory?
But but we know more but in terms of the mind
Wow, we're just beginning I mean, I guess I'm differentiating the brain and the
mind like the brain is this like physical chunk of stuff
That's related to the mind, but the mind is what we are doing right. Well the
thinking feeling
emoting
Wondering all that stuff is mind stuff
And that's super mysterious and super difficult to manage for almost everybody.
Yeah, and again, no guidebook
Yeah, you're giving the most complex instrument known to man, which is the
human mind
Yeah, and everybody's like figure it out
And you're like fuck. Maybe I'll become a Mooney. Maybe I'll go into Scientology.
What do I do? I have to do something
I have to do something someone else knows I know I'm the one who knows follow
that guy
I'll do these 10 things and you'll be okay. Yes, that's how cult gets started.
I'll do those 10 things because we're so nervous
We can't figure it out. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah
Um, have you ever seen a baby be born? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so
So have I my own but also I was a doula for a couple friends who are babies and
You know
Everyone should just see a baby be born
It's very psychedelic. It's psychedelic and it's also it just it puts you in
that liminal space
Where um, it's like you've seen me on the veil. You've seen the the borderland
between life and death
and it feels to me like
That experience which is much more rare for people to have now most people
Can can avoid seeing a baby being born
But that experience is and also seeing someone die that experience I think
helps train
Us in it is the instruction book
For the human mind. I don't know why i'm saying that I look at you, you know,
you're wrinkling your brow
And i'm like also, why am I saying that?
No, I'm not only wrinkling my brow because i'm listening
The face of someone who's always upset, but it's not true
No, I don't know why I said that like i've never had that thought before but it
occurred
I guess I was looking at this little like you've got this little like idol
thing. Oh, that is um a death whistle
That's an aztec death whistle. Don't do it. You'll you last time we did the
pandemic. Yeah, we're close enough
Don't blow it. Okay. Yeah, there's a meme online because my friend brian cowan
was in the podcast studio and he blew this aztec death whistle
Like literally it was like a week before the fucking pandemic. It was way
kicked off
it was way too close and
The meme was brian cowan kicking off the pandemic with the aztec death whistle.
Okay. Well, I didn't blow it. Yeah
I saved everybody. Do you know what aztec death whistles are?
I imagine it's really scary. It sounds horrible and they would play them at
night while
Their enemy was like camped at night and so they would haunt them. So they
couldn't sleep
They would stand on the mountaintops and
Make that noise. Wow, and it's very high pitched and it carries like a crying
baby. Well, no, it's very it's like demons
It sounds like demons like people. Yeah, and you just think this is the last
day of my life
Here's it
Aztec soldiers will blow while charging to battle and during human sacrifices
But how does a whistle make that horrifying when air is blown into the tube the
airflow splits into a big and small chamber each making a different
Poison about to hear
Click here to see me try the world's loudest. Yeah
Did that guy survive this video? I don't know. He might not even be real in
this world. That might be ai
That's true. So no wonder I was thinking about like the veil between life and
death because I was looking at that thing and
There's something that is like a reset
You know when you um
When you see a baby be born or you see someone die, it's like a um
It's like you get to what matters
And it's and it's not whatever the dominance thing and it's not the insecurity
thing and it's not the
It's not any of that. Yeah
You know, so I think that's the instruction book and so we're sort of given
these little
Resets that allow us to get in touch with what really matters
But the more we get away from them, you know in the modern world
um
Maybe the fewer instructions we have
I don't know never had that thought before. Yeah, um
I think it would benefit almost everyone to do something that takes you out of
your own thoughts
and um, I think that physically difficult things are the very best at that
Like yoga is one of the very best things at that because it's very physically
difficult to do
It requires a lot of willpower and concentration while you're doing it. You're
balancing yourself
You're sweating you're straining
And because it's so difficult you can't think of anything else other than it
while you're doing it
And I think that cleans your mind out and that
it
purges you of
All this weirdness that's inside of you that is constantly battling with
everything around you and it allows you to just be
Yeah, just exist. Yeah yoga. I mean childbirth is very physical
Dying is very physical. Yeah, but the thing is you can't voluntarily do that
every day. No, you can't
But I do sort of think like childbirth for women who who go through it are
lucky enough to go through it
Um, it's kind of like boot camp for men. I mean it really it really
pushes you to your limit and then
Puts you in an altered state where oh for sure you just had a human come out of
your body
No, it's now it's alive and you love it more than anything
Yeah, and it brings this like
Incredible i'm looking at this ufo guy behind you it brings this incredible
self-transcendent experience of like whoa
Right, this is not about me. You know, and so
Yeah, same with people who play team sports. I was never one of them, but I
hear that that experience
Happens yes, or like when you're practicing a musical instrument. Well, I think
anything difficult. Yeah, I think doing when I was talking about martial arts
you could
Martial arts will help you in that regard
But I think kind of anything that's hard to do gets you out of your head yeah
and helps you yeah and just
getting an understanding that
Whatever you're doing in life if you concentrate on it and focus on it and and
you'll get better at it
And that gives you confidence and an understanding of kind of how the world
works
And then you could also apply that to being a person, you know
Like you're you're not the same person you were when you were 20 years old,
right?
Why because you're better at being a person because you've lived a lot you've
had a lot of experiences
You've made a lot of mistakes, and you're constantly constantly practicing and
learning
You know, and I think other things that you can do other than just being a
person will enhance your ability to be a person
Yeah
Being a person who is applying yourself to something. Yes, my martial arts
instructor had this thing that he told me when I was very young
He said that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential
And yeah, yeah, I think but I think that could be guitar playing that could be
tennis
When I used to teach for my viewing we used to call it a mental martial art it's
anything that's hard
On which you have to concentrate that puts you in that space of flow
And the flow means you know, you know that
holly chicks at moholly the idea. I don't know if I pronounced his name, right
but this idea of timelessness and
You're just sort of having to surf
Whatever's happening. Mm-hmm and that could happen
It could happen in any field
Right, whatever
Whenever you have to apply your whole self to something
Then what's a it's so ironic because you apply your whole self to something
And then what that allows to happen is that you become selfless like you're
almost like a tube, right?
You're not thinking about you anymore. You're thinking about the thing. Yeah,
and there's neuroscience to back that up, right?
Yeah, yeah
Yeah, I think anything difficult
There that I feel that when I practice archery. I feel that when I play pool
I feel that when I work out
Anything difficult where you you lose yourself
But in doing that you like you can you have a better understanding of yourself,
which is
Yeah
And it's almost like you come into consciousness more. Yeah, I'm really
fascinated by the remote viewing and I want to get to that
But I want to start with like, how did you begin?
Studying this stuff
so you're involved in neuroscience you're
You know, you're trying to
Pick which lane you're gonna really pursue all your interests in how did you
get involved in
This idea of premonition and psychic ability and that there's a real
Something there
Yeah, I
I sort of hid it from my I hid my agenda from myself
So yeah, I discovered, you know later in life
Yeah, because when I was a kid
My first precognitive dream that I remember was when I was seven
And um, it was very clear
I dreamt that my friend I knew which friend eshane
Would what would happen? She would lose her watch where would happen on the
playground?
And then the next day that happened as very specific
You know, it wasn't like you don't have to be metaphorical about it. What does
it mean?
That eshane lost her watch on the playground the next day
And so
Did you tell your parents?
Yeah, and they said my mom so my so my
So my very eccentric
Family would always talk about dreams at the breakfast table
My mom is a therapist and a learning disability specialist. My dad was a
physicist
My sister's an artist and we would all talk about dreams and so I would I
mentioned this
And my dad the physicist says well, that's a coincidence
And my mom the therapist says you should get a dream journal and write them
down
And so I did that and um
Your dad just dismissed it as a coincidence?
You know, he he has come around that's a very specific coincidence
It's three three factors and I always like to say if you have two or more
factors, it's likely precognitive
But just the one lost the watch and then she loses her watch
But she did just get her watch
She was we were seven years old. She got a watch from her father
You know, I could you could predict that as someone who's good at figuring out
what kids do is that they might lose the watch
Right, so that could be a coincidence
You have to think about all the possible things that could happen to a seven-year-old
on the watch that they just got losing it is up there
Yeah, but you thought about it the day before she lost it
I dreamt it the day before she yeah
Yeah, so he did dismiss it as a coincidence, but we also had ball lightning and
like weird orbs in our house
And he also dismissed that as not actually having happened wait, you had ball
lightning in your house
Yeah, we were in this old farmhouse in libertyville, illinois where I grew up
And we lived with my grandparents there and um
And uh ball lightning came inside the house and my mother stood up for it
My mother said ed my my dad's name, you know, didn't you see that lightning zipping
around the house last night?
lightning
And my dad said um
That couldn't have happened
Did he see it?
Of course he saw it
But he just wanted but he didn't have an explanation for it. What does your dad
do?
He was a theoretical physicist when he for his dissertation. He was at
university of chicago
He he discovered or or showed somehow the electron layer on the moon that there's
this like atmosphere of electrons on the moon
And um
How can he say that that couldn't happen?
So
One of the reasons so people are so complex with the reasons they go into
particular fields
My experience with physicists my dad included
Is they tend to go into this field of physics because the whole job of physics
is to simplify everything into a few equations
Right, let's like there's the funny. There's the I don't know if it's funny
But there's the standard physics joke of like all right, let's figure out the
volume of a cow
You know, let's let's just estimate it. It's a sphere, you know
And so it's like you cut off the legs and the and the head and the tail and all
of a sudden
You're just calculating a sphere which doesn't give you the volume of the cow
and
So I think there's a desire to simplify everything and I think there's a desire
to control things
um
And many many many physicists have ocd and I have control issues. My dad had
severe severe ocd
and so in his in his mind
um
It couldn't have happened because it would all his circuits would fry because
he didn't know how to explain it
And my mother just stood up for it and said well
It did happen and you saw it and I saw it and it hit the edge of my room
And then went out and there was still like the brown mark where it was burned
In the corner of the room. So like we had plenty of evidence
um
So there was stuff going on
And there was a there was this push-pull with my mom who just
uh believed in the primacy I guess of or the importance of
experience like we saw it
and
Uh the pull from my dad who believed in if you didn't understand if you didn't
have a theory for something it couldn't exist
And so I was living in that so what I did was I kept a dream journal
Sort of the rest of my life. I still write every morning my dreams
and
Started to notice that I was really good at precognitive dreaming
And it would happen again and again and again and I would have um
Experience we can get into later the weird school stuff
But experiences at school that reminded me that I had this capacity and um
Then I hid it from myself
When I realized I wanted to go to graduate school and actually be a scientist
So
By which I mean I just sort of said well all of that stuff's crap even though I
was still having those experiences
I had to kind of split off
This is a thing that you have to do if if you think okay, I have to ride the
academic train
Right and the academic train says
Like i'm going to do hard science. I'm going to go to the best neuroscience
school. I'm gonna you know, right
And then by the time I was in my late 20s
And um
I was in my second graduate school getting my phd at northwestern
I started to remember and the reason I started and it's not like I had really
forgotten
But it's like it just wasn't allowed to be real
I started to study
Timing in the auditory system because I was into understanding
How the auditory system managed things in time
And then I started to ask myself why am I so interested in time?
Why am I so interested in the nature of time and how it works?
And then boom oh, right because I keep having these precognitive dreams
There's obviously something we don't understand about how time works because
these are so
Consistent and clear and at that point, you know, I knew that was happening
Because I knew I wasn't making it up. I could look at my journal and I could
see it
So that's when I started saying all right, you know, I'm old enough to choose
my own path and I'm going to start
Asking these questions and when you started asking them and trying to apply it
in
Using the scientific method. How did you first attempt to do that?
Well, I called I was a
I'm kind of fearless
When it comes to cold calling people, especially scientists because very few
people call scientists
So I called up Dean readin. I had read some of his work from the institute on
aquatic sciences
I called him up and I said um
Hi, my name's julia and I was thinking of going into this field and I think
recognition is real and he's like, oh, okay
and
And I remember where I was sitting
when I called him and
He said the thing you have to do is get your phd in a field that is not this
So finish your phd
And then as a postdoc start to investigate it
So I did I finished my phd while I was studying all this other stuff and
understanding the field
And then as soon as I got into my postdoc years
I found a sympathetic advisor at northwestern in the cognitive neuroscience
program and
And just said I want to start studying this stuff
So I at the same time I had one foot in more mainstream stuff about timing and
the auditory and the visual system
And then the other foot was in this purely basically psychic stuff trying to
understand it and I
Made an experiment there's a foundation called the be all foundation in portugal
and I wrote I wrote an application to them
And they funded my postdoc so I could study
A sense of being stared at
With like closed circuit tv monitors and I could study how the skin physiology
You know skin conductance or sweat changes
When just before you get a response right on a random like psychic task
And so that that's kind of precognition or pre-sentiment
And then I just pulled from
I got really interested in pre-sentiment because I saw that it was real
And I also saw there was a big gender difference that was fascinating to me
which is that
Before men got their first trial correct
And this is just a guessing game so you know it's all randomly selected
Their skin conductance would go crazy like they just won the lottery
And when they're before they didn't get it correct or they were incorrect it
would just kind of like peter along
So they were anticipating at a very high level
What the future was going to bring whether they were going to win or not
whereas women
Practically but not totally showed the opposite
But their skin but but regardless of what happened whether it was correct or
incorrect
They were much lower than men
So men were really excited about the future
Correct thing at least their physiology showed that so I got fascinated by that
and pulled together a bunch of
Worked with a couple other people at different institutions and pulled together
26 studies over the past or the prior
I guess 40 years
That looked at this kind of physiological change that predicts essentially a
random future event
And just analyzed it. Do you have a theory as to why men have that response and
women don't?
You know, I kind of think it's cultural you were talking about the importance
of winning
And I think
I mean that we know that gambling addicts are twice as likely maybe three times
as likely to be men as women
really yeah and
The importance of winning well, I don't know if it's biological or cultural but
in any case the importance of
Being alpha or the importance of winning. I think it's a big deal
It's a big deal to the to men. Do you think that goes back to tribal war?
I think it goes like back to like
Chimpanzees. Yeah, which do tribal war. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it kind of makes
sense that the importance in winning is literally survival or death
You will get kicked out of your little chimpanzee colony
Not only that the ability to predict things that are going to happen would
probably keep you alive
Yeah, like if you were running into an ambush, you know, like I don't like this
Or something is wrong something's off or now's the time to go like I feel it
Yeah, yeah, so those combined but you know, there's other tasks that aren't
about winning that are just about is, you know
Are you going to see a picture that's scary versus a picture that's neutral
where women and men both show the effect?
But in this particular task, it was just
Like very clear and then I replicated it in heart heartbeat. So the first one
was in skin conductance
And then I looked at heart rhythms
And I replicated that same thing where men are like, oh, yeah, here we go
And women are like
Um, it doesn't if something doesn't matter so much to you in the future
I don't think it matters so much to you in anticipating it
Now here's the question about this stuff
Do you think that this is an emerging phenomenon in human consciousness?
Or do you think it's something that has atrophied that was available before
language?
So
Very clearly available. I mean before language. Okay. That's what I think
I've been thinking that a lot lately and one of the things that I've been
thinking is
One of the things that we've noticed like I think phones and the internet and
The computers are an amazing thing you can acquire so much information you can
learn about things you can
Encounter new people. There's so much stuff. That's great about the internet
The bad thing is
A lot of people have a much shorter attention span now because of social media
and then now they're demonstrating that
Through use of large language models a lot of people are actually getting dumber
Yeah, or they're noticed it. Yeah, well, it's
They've studied it and they especially children. They're they're actually less
capable of solving problems themselves
Because they always turn to a computer and have the computer solve a problem
And the more I think about that the more I look at that I go. Well, what is
language language is a technology
And language is a technology that allows you to say things with your mouth and
I know what you're thinking
Maybe before that existed. We had an understanding of what we were thinking
You know, maybe there's like some sort of a weird psychic
Connection that we all believe that people have with each other in some way or
form and some of it's
You could demonstrate some of it, you know, but most of it is just intuition
and feeling
And I always wonder like is this atrophied like before we could talk when we
were just these bipedal hominids with
You know larger brains and all the other mammals and these weird abilities to
be curious and figure out things and develop tools
Like what was what was consciousness like before language?
Before written language you didn't have a word for dog and tree and like what
was it?
That was going on in your head if you don't like you think in your head. I
think in my head in a voice
Yeah, you know, and they say some people don't have
You don't have an internal voice. I have pictures. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah,
really?
Yeah, I sometimes wonder about that if that's why I can I can do the remote
only pictures
Feelings oh, I have a whole dude in my brain. Yeah, I've heard that most people
have that
No, I don't think it's most people really I think it's kind of
Well, is it your voice like oh, it's not me. No, I mean, it might be like your
dad. No, no, no
Is it a guy? Yeah, it's like a general. Oh, it's like someone's gone shut the
fuck up
Like go to work go do this. What are you talking about? Why are you being such
a bitch?
So he's kind of a jerk. No, no, no, no, no. He's right always
My favorite voice is never wrong. My inner self-correcting voice is always
correct
It's always right. It's always like it's uh
I mean if you wanted to get really crazy you would say it's like a guardian
angel in your brain that's stirring you
Steering you in the right direction
But if i've done something wrong in my life made a mistake in my life said
something
I shouldn't have said that voice berates me wow, so that seems hard. No, it's
good
It's great. I mean like but you got to get over it. Well, but that's how you
learn well
I mean
Let's talk about that. Okay
Because when people go through hard things one way to learn is like berating uh-huh
um
but that's kind of like not as sustainable as
forgiving yourself and
Deciding that you couldn't figuring out how you can do better. I mean is berating
really the best
I think you have to feel pain from mistakes, but don't you already feel the
pain?
No, you got to really feel it
Do you feel like I don't like making mistakes twice and the best way to not
make
Make a mistake twice is have the first one suck so bad that you never want to
go through that again for sure
If it doesn't really suck make it suck in your head, but does it already?
I feel like it already sucks without a guy telling you that it sucks
Well, it's not ness. I mean i'm kind of exaggerating
It's not just that but it's like it's not even like you're you it's not
Pejoratives. It's not you know insults. You're a fucking loser. It's like
You fucked up that you did this you were supposed to do that
You you were supposed to get something done. You didn't get it done
You were supposed to do this, but you fucked it up
Like don't fuck it up again. This is what you did wrong
Don't do that again. I get it. This is what you could have done, right?
It's like your conscience. It is like a conscience, but it's very strong. It's
very loud
Yeah, yeah, and I have to learn how to sometimes ignore it and just calm
otherwise I won't sleep
Right, it's gonna be too harsh. Yeah, but it doesn't like I don't hate myself
or anything like that. It's not that but it's just like
Honest yeah, it's just an honest assessment of everything that i've ever done
Ever yeah
That's like instant karma. Yeah, in a way. Yeah, but it works
It works
And I think it made me makes me a better person i'm better than I would have
been if I didn't have that
Self-correcting mechanism. There's this poem by this mystic and I forget her
name
But at the end of it, she says
At the end of the day, I always
Bring to my mind all the people that I was kind to
And
Then I can fall asleep and so if you know that's another way to do it right if
you know that
At the end of the day, you have to look in the face
Yeah, of all the people that you were kind to so you can fall asleep
Then that kind of makes your day
Yeah, no, definitely
And I think I always tell people that being kind and being generous is kind of
selfish
Yeah, because because exactly because you feel better
Yeah, you feel better about yourself. You feel better about life. You feel
better about everything
It's actually a good thing to do to be kind and generous and that's like
Counter like you shouldn't think that way. No, you should just be kind and
generous. I agree
but also
You benefit from it and I think the more people understand that you benefit the
more people are likely to behave in that way
And it'd be better for everybody
So back to the language thing. So this actually to me relates to the language
thing
If you develop language
You are more aware of of what you're thinking in a certain sense if you think
linguistically
But you also
In a way sort of dampen down as as you say and I agree with you that there's
this there's a there's a trade-off there
You dampen down the the sort of instant knowledge
Of how people around you are feeling like that telepathy thing. So I keep
looking at this skull, right?
And so what we know I don't think
But I don't think we've lost it. So you you had this idea that we've lost that
psychic stuff
I think it's absolutely there and I think it's
Neuroscientifically defensible that it's there, but that language actually
suppresses it. So yeah
Atrophies it. It doesn't atrophy it. It's like you can actually use um
So, okay, so there's this cool result from this guy in baycrest his name's morris
freeman and he's a neurologist there
up in canada and he noticed in his
stroke patients
That if they have lesions here, so their stroke kind of messed up this area
here left frontal orbital area
of the brain in the cortex
That they seem to be more psychic like he didn't know how to explain it
So he did an actual experiment where he tried to get people to move
With their minds an arrow on a computer screen
So that there was no mouse there was no way to move it
They just had to look at the arrow and say move to the left or move to the
right and wish it to happen
And using their intention, right?
So the people who had the strokes there were able to do it statistically
significantly
Um, people who had the strokes over here were not able to do it. So can I pause
you here?
What was actually moving the cursor?
So he had a random number generator hooked up to the driver
So the cursor was kind of like shaking
And the random number generator would make it deviate to the left or to the
right
So the person was effectively changing the random number generator. How often?
Enough so that it was statistically significant
What is statistically significant? So what you would do is sure you would have
a control so
You have the the try period where you say to the person try to move it to the
left
Try to move it to the right
And then you have the control period where you say, you know read a book like
you're not trying
And you compare the amount the distance and the amount of time it's spent in
the intended direction
to the reading a book time
And if it's you can you know, there's statistical tests you can use to
determine whether it
Was spending time in the intended direction more often when it was intended
But how much more often?
um
A number that's statistically significant. So I guess
So it's like imagine five percent ten percent. Oh, I forget what the actual
quantitative
But that would be interesting to know. I totally would I just whether or not it
would change with different humans
I I agree, but then he then he replicated it instead of looking at stroke
patients
He looked at used uh transcranial magnetic stimulation
Which turns down activity. So he put that over here. So he's putting that over
the left area
And to turn that down
And again, there were people these are not people who've had strokes just
regular people you and I
They were able to do this with their minds. So it's just sitting there
What was his explanation is that the front
Left orbital frontal area is
We know that it inhibits the right
Frontal area and we know that the right orbital frontal inhibits the left
And his explanation is this stuff is going on in the right hemisphere
Or at least is dominated by that
And um, when you suppress it it you're not as psychic and when you release the
suppression you are more psychic
And it's just right under the surface. It's right there
And so when I when I work with non-speaking autistic kids, it's um
It feels to me like
That's a pretty good explanation of what's going on. They're not
Activating this part as much. I not that i've proven this i'm this is a
hypothesis
And and it's not i'm not the only one with hypothesis, but they're not
Activating this part as much we know that because this is where speech is over
here, right these areas
In the left
And so therefore this area can be a little bit more free. So the psychic stuff
is coming out, huh?
Well, that's one of the weird things that they've demonstrated about
Certain psychedelics like psilocybin you would think that it just like turns on
your mind and all the synapses are firing. No
Dampens yeah, yeah, which is very weird. Yeah, so it makes you think like what
are we doing with the mind?
Yeah, the brain I should say not the mind well and the brain is related to the
mind
In ways we don't understand and then it's sometimes not related to the mind
right like in the psilocybin results
You're having all these experiences
But the brain is dampened. Yeah, what's going on and there's the filter theory
of consciousness says
Well, consciousness is kind of like out there almost like a radio signal and
your brain's kind of
Filtering it yes, so that then you have this simple like oh pick up the cup and
say the words and you know
You can kind of live your life without realizing that person over there is
Having this experience and that's going on and then in the future this will
happen
So that makes sense to me that it's like our conscious minds in order to just
deal with daily life
Have to be kind of stupid
And then because otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by all the data and
possibilities
It's so much you're in the universe and it's so much data
Multicellular creatures all around you and subatomic particles
Well, yeah, and then and that's and and when we're working with
I work with a whole team that works with non-speaking autistic kids like in
telepathy tapes
And when we're working with them
Like they get distracted by that stuff like they'll say I you know i'm
distracted there when I say say I mean they're
You know
Typing on a letter board or a keyboard
You know their spirits in the room or you know, i'm i'm thinking about what you
did earlier today that I didn't know about
But I do know about because i'm telepathic
And so it's like a lot of information that makes it pretty hard to be in the
here and now
Has have any of those non-verbal autistic kids ever wrote something down where
they couldn't possibly have known it?
Yeah, like what?
Oh, I can give you many examples. In fact, um
Do you want to I have a video of that?
Oh, sure. Yeah, I have to walk you through the video. Okay. Yeah. Do you have
that over there?
I gave you like 18 things
Okay, so that so let me explain the context okay, so um
uh
I met my research team
partially
Through people I had already worked with and partially
Folks who uh, kai dickens creator of the telepathy tapes introduced me to her
on yeah, I know it was a great show very interesting and so
I I wanted to ask that question can we use rigorous methods
To have folks write down non-speakers or spellers whatever we want to call them
I think non-speakers or spellers are preferred
Non-verbal kind of implies that they don't have language at all
But the reality is they don't they may speak but they don't speak to
communicate they use letter boards or got it or keyboards
um
I wanted to understand like
They're doing all these tests where they're repeating numbers and letters
And that's interesting
But it doesn't really to me
I mean the whole world of testing people for psychic abilities
It's not very interesting
And if we presume that these students are actually pretty smart
It's got to be boring for them
And so I thought well, let's give them
An opportunity to really show their stuff and so I set up this whole rigorous
trial set
And even the non-speakers came on board and actually told us what they would
like to see the stimuli be we want videos
We want music. We want words in the videos that are sung
I mean, they just told us all these things that they wanted
And by by again using the letter boards and we said, okay, we can do all that
But the catch is
The person who's sending
The information is going to be in another room maybe like 30 yards away with a
closed door
And you can work with your communication partner, but she is not going to know
what the target is
And she's going to have no idea what the target could be because she's never
going to see any of the target videos that we'll use
And so we were preparing
for this and
We were getting our software ready
We were preparing for the formal trials that would be filmed for the for the
documentary
And so we were doing that on zoom
We weren't yet in person
But the non-speaker that i'm about to tell you about was with his communication
partner maria welch who's a speech and language pathologist
And
He was you know getting ready to do the trial. We were explaining it to him
And I was in virginia maria and the student were in
In illinois and then jeff tarrant
another co-investigator
another neuroscientist was in oregon
and
So the person who was going to send the video in other words just intend to
send the video like in a telepathy experiment was going to be jeff
the non-speaker chose jeff
and then
We did it we turned off our cameras we were on zoom we turned off our cameras
we turned off our microphones
jeff sent the video
Maria and the student
Started I don't know intending to receive it and then these the student said he
was ready he spelled that he was ready
And then maria asked the question that I put
I thought I had put in the zoom chat for her because we didn't have our
software set up
So I had to send her a question in the zoom chat
And I and the way we traditionally did it at that time was
I asked multiple choice is it a is it a this this this or this
But the thing is by mistake I sent that to jeff because I had a private chat
with him going
So I didn't realize that she didn't have the questions
Meanwhile, the student
Starts to spell on the letter board. He says i'm ready
He says it's a beautiful sky
And she had not seen the questions
It was a beautiful sky that of all the videos in the world that he picked to
describe that way
It was a video of the tops of trees and then above them
Like northern lights that had been colored
Like by an artist to look even more cool
And then there's like a time lapse
And he said it's it's art of a beautiful sky
and
That was a really great description
And statistically there's almost no way to calculate how statistically likely
that is because it could have been any video in the world
And we didn't even give him the multiple choice
Yeah, so actually that's not the video i'm going to show you
I just realized that I wanted to answer the question more directly
The video i'm going to i want to show you if you can find it
Is one of what we call a telepathy train
Where the students and this happened more than once when when we were
physically in town
In in chicago as a team
Where this one student comes in and says something leaves
And the next student comes in with their mom
And they check in you know maria always asks them would you like to check in?
And then they refer to the thing the last student was talking about
And um
And it happened in a really compelling way
In this video because there was also a discussion that the first student who
comes in
Which I believe i'm calling participant four just for anonymity
So participant four comes in and asks says he wants to go on a double date with
participant five and his girlfriend
And then and then he says tell his mom and then when participant five comes in
He says
Tell my mom I want to go to on a double date with participant four and his
girlfriend
So they clearly had
Already discussed this telepathically because they're not speakers. They're not
talking to each other
Their parents haven't talked to each other about this the parents don't know
each other
And so
So that happened
And then they also passed on this
I mean so this stuff kept happening
They also passed on this idea of slamming a beach ball on the ground
In order to
Identify each of the videos because they wanted to get the telepathy
Signals right, but they were missing them you know on the formal trials
So they discussed between themselves apparently telepathically
If you slam a beach ball on the ground before we do the trial then we'll focus
on it in time
And we'll go to the right timeline
To talk about this is this is what they write down
To get to the video in our minds and so that's the video that I wanted to show
you if it's here
Because I don't include the double date stuff in it because it's too private
and they say too many names of other
Page I have it says here's a link, but
There's no link that I can find
Oh, um, you know what if you go
Go back to what you just saw and then say I worked with my team to get out this
response right away
It includes a link to this video as well
Yeah, so that's the on the in a level right then if you go um down
I didn't see a video
Go up
Go down you're going too faster. Sorry. I'm just going to the top and then yeah,
so that's my mom and my other mom
All right scroll all the way down
You got it keep going this is all about the science stuff okay now stop right
there slow down
And then now go a little bit more down
Okay, go up
Yeah
Video the debrief you got it
All right
This is it yeah, okay
And that's jeff and me on the right and that's maria. Maybe someone else has
questions to ask
I was wondering if that was the best way to present the video so that
The timing doesn't become a factor like maybe he saw a video at a different
time
But how could we make this one stand out? So, you know, that's the one we're
talking about
Yeah, great. That's kind of what I was going to ask
And that's natalia on the very left
And so he's typing something into a keyboard right now. He's typing into the
keyboard
It's got electronic voice
And the electronic voice is hard to hear so she'll repeat it and then I also
have a little slide that shows what he said
What did the voice say?
S-O-A-N
Slam
Slam
Slam
S-O-A-N
Ball
Slam a ball
This is where he's giving us this idea
To slam a ball on the ground to get him to the right timeline in telepathy
trials
It was his idea. We never never occurred to us
That's before
I picked up the F. I don't know why
Before
Great
By the way, Maria has a big crush on you
She knows you're married, but she told me not to tell you
Thanks
Tar said thanks
Video
Okay, who should where or which person would be helpful to do that before the
video?
Okay, so this is the transcript of it slam a ball before sending. That's what
he's saying. Yeah
Natalia says who should do that before the video is sent?
He says he says sender what kind of ball slam a beach ball?
Why would you draw your to why would that draw your attention to this timeline?
He says because I could see and hear it when looking in the future
Does it matter how many times she slams it? He says before each video once
Yeah, so the slamming of the ball allowed him to look into the future is what
he was saying
He was hoping that would work because he had just failed a telepathy trial
And he said I was on a different timeline and we said so how can we get you on
this timeline?
And he said he made up this idea of slamming a beach ball and what we found
fascinating about it was
You know, that's an original idea that none of us
Thought about but then we also found it fascinating because of what you'll see
next which is the next person who comes in
Who of course hadn't heard any of this?
This is another participant participant five and natalia's
Participant four arrives out to participant five leaves he has to go on a
double date with participant five and his girlfriend
Something participant five asked about participant four already
He also brings up something participant five mentioned about how to make the
telepathy work better
What is that voice that's him? He um
he's able to type and
Do this sort of sing-song talking at the same time. It would be good to try the
beach ball slam
Now, did you see how natalia just does that little shrug?
It would be good to try the beach ball slam. So now he didn't hear that other
conversation at all. He wasn't in the room
His mom where was he so he was at home with his mom
So he came in after we had a 20 minute break between the purchase so he wasn't
anywhere near the building
No, there's no way he could have known. That's why natalia gave that shrug
Like see she and maria see this all the time where students will all be talking
about the same thing
And so he just comes in and says the beach ball slam would be a good idea. Yeah,
so he
Whoa, yeah, and this this is it is
it is like they are all in the same conversation and
It is so
It's hard to think about what it would be like
But it's becoming more and more clear to me that it would be very
Difficult to just be in this conversation where the words are coming out of our
mouths
If you also are just having all these conversations with other people. I mean,
it's like an incredible focus
And so the work that he has to do to type and then he's also using his sing-song
voice
And he's clearly having some kind of conversation
In his head, it's incredible focus that they're actually having to do and many
of them have dyspraxia
So their bodies it's hard for them to control their bodies
Which is part of the speech issue and so
I'm I just think they're all gifted. I mean at this point
Right, but there's that thing that they kept talking about in the telepathy
tapes where they all meet
Psychically on the hill. Yeah, yeah
Yeah, so I had they all talk about it independently
Like it's not something that has been taught to them. Like do you meet on the
hill? Oh, yeah, I do
No, they've they've talked about it independently, which is very weird
Right and one way so my concept well
I
Turn on my scientist hat when I think about that and I think okay
Well, they could have heard it on the telepathy tapes and then they started
talking about it
But that's not how it seemed to have worked
But I have my own experience of that particular student
I forget whether I called him participant four or participant five at the end
He and I became I had a good understanding of his mind and we had some good
conversations
and I had a dream
one night where
He came to me and all he did was show me this like
It was like a it was like a sun where you could see the sunspots
And it was just slowly turning
And it was beautiful and he just gave it to me
And then the next day I was working with him over zoom and so I asked maria I
said can I ask him a question?
You know, and she said sure and I said, you know
Last night you gave me
Something you gave me a shape
What was the shape because I didn't I hadn't told maria about the dream or
anyone else
It was just my dream that I wrote in my journal
Um, and I was thinking he would say ball or sphere and that would either be a
good guess
Or it would be telepathy, but he goes
I can't I still can't get over this
I sent you
A pre-revolutionary orb with four stars on it slowly rotating
What is a pre-revolutionary orb?
I don't fucking know, but I don't know
I mean four stars on it with four star stars on it slowly rotating
But that's not exactly what you saw in the dream
Well, there were these sunspots
So see he's see
There's a poetic license
That they have
I I would say
That's 80% correct
So it was slowly rotating
And there were these sunspots that I were calling
I was calling sunspots
He was calling stars
And it was definitely an orb
What does pre-revolutionary mean?
I don't know
They talk about and I talk about in my book the love revolution
This idea that we're moving towards a time when we can actually
Use love in our lives
To communicate and to connect people
But maybe that's what he means
And then
So that's one instance
So I sort of go
Okay, that was interesting
And it kind of blew my mind that he used that language
He's very, he's just gifted at interesting language
And then this other non-speaker who worked with Natalia
Who was the young woman you saw on the left who also works with a lot of spellers
Just decided
To start reading my mind
Like we did
He started
I asked Natalia
I said can we just do an experiment where I'll be doing something
And I'll know what I'm doing at that time
And you just ask one of your students to read my mind
And then no one else will know what I'm doing
And she won't know what I'm doing
And so what I was doing was doing this remote viewing for a friend
And so I knew exactly what I was doing during that time and what I was thinking
But what I was thinking about was remember that comet
Three-Eye Atlas
So I was thinking I was kind of obsessively thinking about Three-Eye Atlas
Like what is it?
What's the deal?
You know
It was during that exact time
Right
In December last year
And he comes back with
Some stuff I don't understand
Like poetic license
I call it poetic license or just it's wrong
That I don't understand where it came from
And then he says
Oh and Three-Eye Atlas
And he talks about this owl that I saw in a video when I was doing the remote
viewing
And I was like
So Natalia didn't even know what Three-Eye Atlas was
She had to look it up
And the parent didn't know what Three-Eye Atlas was
And he spelled it Three-E-Y-E Atlas
Right
So it was phonetic
Yeah
And then later a couple weeks ago
I get a text from Natalia that the same student who apparently has now felt
perfectly fine reading my mind
Tapped into my mind when I was thinking about a medication that my stepmom was
taking
And he used her name which Natalia didn't know
And told me that she would be okay on the medication that it would help her
And then told Natalia to text me and so she did
The Three-Eye Atlas in writing it as E-Y-E
Yeah
Is very strange
Well
And that's hard
Because that's not how it's written anywhere
Yeah
Right
So the fact that he wrote it I-E-Y-E means he was hearing you
It's how it's how you would hear it
What the hell?
Yeah
How weird
So there's no way I can explain
Also he came up with my son's name which Natalia didn't know
So that could have been from her but still he read her mind
Did you ask him more about this pre-revolutionary orb with four stars?
Like why did you give me that?
What does that mean?
I wish I did
One thing I know with this particular participant is that
He's so gifted and his family asks him a lot like about
To do mediumship stuff like what does grandpa think about this or whatever
And in fact
The grandpa's dead?
Yeah
Yeah
And to him there's not a lot of difference
And so
And so
Yeah
And they also like the grandmother
Had a had a lung transplant and they asked who the donor was
And he identified a probable donor who lived in the area who had died that day
And they won't know for a year if it was the actual donor because it takes time
to learn who the donor is
But they're pretty sure that it probably is
But so
Boy, if they if it turns out that he's right and you can't find out for another
year
Yeah, but they won't release the information
Well, you know, yeah, my husband had a double lung transplant
It just takes a while. Everyone has to agree that they want to release the
information
But um in any case he's just really good at this
Like he's very skilled
And I didn't want him to feel like he was a show pony and I wanted to get on
with his lesson
And so I didn't want to ask other questions. I feel like
You know, he'll probably just show up in my dream and tell me at some point
Yeah, but do you think that he even
Would think of himself as a show pony like wouldn't it just be communication?
He doesn't but I didn't also I wanted like
I feel like I would want to know. Why'd you give me a song?
Of course I wanted to know but also
What's pre-revolutionary? What do you mean?
I agree. I mean he's the kid who I mean there there are there are some we
worked with six kids
They're all gifted and amazing, but he's one that showed up in telepathy tapes
as
Do you I don't know if you remember this story? It's so wonderful
His teacher said maria what she does is like they'll read a paragraph about a
topic
And then he'll ask you know the students like, okay, let's you know talk about
the topic just like in school
But he has to spell out his answers and so I think the topic was um like gothic
art and so um
Excuse me. I'm gonna have a drink of water
So the topic of the paragraph was gothic art and
She says so you know what was the purpose of gothic art and he said oh it it aphorizes
the masses
And she says I don't think that's a word
And then she thinks well, I better look it up because he says it's a word
And so she looked it up and it was only a word that was used in the 1600s
Oh my god
And so and it means like it appeases them so that's he wrote out it means it
calmed them down
And and she said well, how do you know about the word?
It was only used in the 1600s he said or the 1400s or something and he writes
out
Oh, I was talking with a magistrate from that time period
So like
What you know, what do you do with that?
What do you do with that?
Except for maybe
State that there's something going on we don't understand and it deserves more
study and these students shouldn't be dismissed
Now is he I don't know if you've even asked this but is he communicating with
people in a different timeline?
Or he would is he communicating with disembodied souls?
That no longer live in that timeline, but still contain consciousness
So my experience of him and several other people who are non-speakers is that
there's really not a lot of distinct like
It's hard for them to know if someone's alive or dead
Because they're not spending too much time in the physical right
They're not spending too much time
We spend all this time in the physical and that's what seems to be real and
important to us
But to them, it's like when I brought up that someone he mentioned he said oh,
I was just talking to the jp who was another non-speaker
And I said oh, were you sad when jp died and he said oh, I didn't know he was
dead
um
Because because you're just talking to him just talking to him and and it does
seem to be on this timeline
Because there's information that they say well again, this is their experience
But their experience is that they get contemporary information
Like jp saw his mother do this and he's happy that she's doing that and that
would happen two years after he died. So
wow
So jp was relaying information about his mom two years after he died
He gets around
God it's so weird
Oh, and that and that was that was the students it's so hard not to say his
name
But that that was this student's story about it
But like as we know from people who study mediumship like the the winbridge
institute or the winbridge research center and
Places like that that study mediumship
There's a this big argument about their experiences. They're talking to dead
people
Are they actually just tapping into some kind of informational substrate that
underlies everything or are those the same thing?
Right, yeah, right
So we we're trying to differentiate so we could exist in this consciousness in
this form in this
Reality and we think that this is it. This is it. This it's locked down. This
is the box
And it's not
Apparently
It looks like it's not it seems like it's not to them
So then the question is what is it about being non-speaking?
That allows them to have access to this
Yeah, is it
You know, is it like one of those things where you know people that can't see
apparently they can hear much better?
Yeah, you hear about that. Yeah, yeah, sure sure
You know there was this cool article recently came out in the new york times
about these singing mice
So cold spring harbor researchers
uh
Are studying these mice that sing at a frequency that we can hear humans can
hear all all mice vocalize at ultrasonic
frequencies
uh, but when they're close to each other
But when they're far away from each other these singing mice will do this
Singing and I guess they call it singing because it sounds like singing to us.
It's really really communication of course
um
But they wait they take turns
You know i'll sing and then you sing i'll sing and then you sing just like you
would in a conversation
And they looked at what the difference was between regular laboratory mice who
don't do this
And these singing mice because they were thinking these ones have speech and
these ones just do this other thing
And there was very little difference. They saw like some more fibers, but that's
it. So when you say singing mice, what do they do?
Like jimmy jimmy okay play this here we go
I don't hear anything
Do you hear it? Yeah, you want to hear that chirping?
You know that chirping watch the with the with the audio wave here it'll pop up
here look at the spectrogram on the phone
It's like it starts right after the four second mark
that
God I barely hear that turn my thing up. That's right. Oh, oh my thing's really
low. Oh, yeah, and then I hear it
Okay, that's a okay my
My volume is really that's what I mean. So that's singing mice. They just make
a little chirp chirp
Yeah, and so the reason i'm bringing that up is because
If we can understand what gives mice the capacity to have this kind of
communication and other other mice the capacity that they don't have it
Maybe we can understand non-speaking autism versus
You know sort of speaking autism or people who can are neurotypical
But it turns out that the difference just as in degree
In other words, just a few more fiber tracks
um
And so
That's why I keep saying I don't think it's about something that's atrophied
It's just like a slight difference allows us to speak
Most people have that ability to speak people who don't
Are I think very much like that
You get to
Be in contact with this information that is generally sorted out if you're
using language more actively
like you're like
I almost think that that babies
Are probably telepathic? I think i'm wondering if that's how we learn language
I keep thinking like we have so few exposures compared to an llm
We have very few exposures of like
You know death whistle like how many times do you hear that before you have to
learn it if you're a baby
I have to like
Know that when you say apple you're talking about the thing in your hand and
not the 8 000 other things that are going on
Right, and I don't hear it that many times before I get that. That's what an
apple is
And so imagine if you could just go back and be a baby again before you learned
language
just to just like just to exist and
Understand what thinking is like
Well, I think and then you wouldn't be able to understand it because everything
would be like william james said like blooming buzzing confusion
I mean, right, but it would probably be if you could just
I mean if if you could access that memory
To a time where you didn't understand language, but could you even do that?
I don't know the thing is like the problem is you already understand language
So how would you even be able to access it?
It's like those movie fantasies where you go back in time and you have all the
wisdom you have now
But you get to experience being a kid again like that's the fantasy. That would
be amazing. That's a coward's dream
But isn't it nice sometimes
No, no, that's a coward's dream because it's like no one wants to make the
mistakes that they made in high school boy
If I could go back now, I'd be the king of the school like
No, you'd be a cheater playing video games on god mode. I mean, that's how I
made it through
Trauma as a as a kid. That's how I made it through abuse. I mean like
That time travel therapy is a thing
So going back and like reliving your life as an adult who knows better and has
information
It really helps people interesting because you can love yourself from the
future
I think you're talking about a different thing, right?
You're talking about abuse and getting over abuse what i'm talking about is
just general sucking at life
Boy, if I could go back and do it again. I'd be so much better. Oh, I
understand. That's different
Now this isn't going back and doing it again. This is almost like the opposite
This is like you're still there back experiencing it making the bad choice or
abuse or whatever it is
But then your wiser self who's survived and who gets that it was a bad choice
or who gets that it was abusive
You go back in time mentally and you see yourself
So you're still there doing it, but you're like a second character is
introduced
In the timeline you see yourself and you go, you know what?
You're going to learn from this things are going to get better. You are loved
It's going to be okay
And that works regardless of whether it's a bad choice or whether it's abuse.
It's like
You're doing the best you can
No matter what right that
That seems to make sense
Like you're a human being that understands language back then
If you go back to being a baby
Oh, yeah, then you don't know language, but then people would be talking. So
what would you hear?
What would the sound? I think you'd feel things
Right, you would probably feel their intention or feel where they're coming
feel their vibes
It's like, you know, like you know how babies and even dogs will like
Someone will give off vibes and they'll just be like no, yeah, you know, yeah,
I think it's like that
Yeah, dogs are really good at that. Some dogs not my dog
I have a golden retriever. Everybody's the best
No wonder you could have like a general in your brain. You have a golden retriever
who will love you forever
Oh, he's the best. He loves everybody's his best friend
Like if he was in the room, he would just go from you get pet by you go over to
jamie get pet by jamie come over to me
He would just make the rounds you should bring him
I do sometimes he's on the floor. It's a carpet. Oh, right there. That's marshall.
Oh, he's wonderful
Golden retrievers are the best emotional support animals. Oh, they're so sweet.
They just love people. Yeah, they love everybody
Yeah, I have a little dog to a little, um, king charles cavalier spaniel
Yeah, and uh, all he does is like attack marshall like bite his face and marshall's
so tolerant
He just lays there this dog's licking his ear licking his eyeballs licking his
face and just kissing him and biting him
and he's just
Never gets upset never growls never never says get off me just deals with it. I
love that. Oh, he's the sweetest. Yeah, I'm on a dog
They're the best. I know I love them. I had a weird dream about my little dog
My little dog was so little that I could hold him in my hand
He's not that little he's pretty little it's like that big but he was so little
that I could hold him in my hand
And he was running into traffic and so I had to run into traffic
And risk dying to grab this dog and pick him up and hold on to him and somehow
or not
Not get hit by a car. Oh, wow. It was a very strange dream. Was this recent?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, but he didn't even look like him. He looked like a chihuahua
But I knew it was charlie. Huh isn't that funny how in dreams you just know it's
someone even it could be someone else
Yeah
I knew it was charlie, but it didn't look like charlie because he was so tiny
He was like a mouse like literally I was holding him in my hand like a like a
little baby mouse
you know that reminds me of that that dream quality of uh
Of someone being someone like having the essence of them, but not looking like
them
Yeah reminds me also of something i've noticed in the non-speakers where they're
not very good at labeling animals like
like
Like camels and kangaroos might be the same. It's like it's like the physical
form
Uh, it's not what's important. It's just not what's important. It's like that
feeling
Yeah on the inside. It's what to me. It's like proof of a soul or something
I don't I really think we ought to start studying
souls scientifically
because if we can show that
This is I didn't think we're gonna talk about this, but oh, well, i'm sure that
happens a lot, but
But if we could start
Understanding what a soul is right. How would you quantify it? Yeah, I don't
know right?
I mean, I think I think maybe it's one of those things you just can't
Maybe you can't study, but if you understand I guess i'm always coming back to
the informational substrate because that's like my favorite concept
but if you understand
That underneath if this is true
I sort of think this is true that underneath all of what we call physical
reality
So space time matter energy
Is this informational substrate that it's almost like has all the information?
from the beginning of the universe to the end of the universe like all of it
including like what you're thinking feeling etc at this moment or other moments
and
If you could
I guess
Insert information into it
And read information from it
Then I think
Maybe that means you're
Have a soul
Maybe that's what a soul is is that which
You know inserts information into that informational substrate so you change
things in the world
And reads things from it you perceive things in the world and
Maybe if you can do both of those things it means that's what a soul is
What makes you think that there's an informational substrate that contains all
the information from the beginning of time to the end of time?
Yes, very good question
Um, it's just a feeling
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying i'm wrong either, but i'm not
saying i'm right
It's aesthetically pleasing to me
to
Okay
It does seem like people whether they're
Non-speakers or people are particularly gifted at remote viewing or whatever
Can go to different times in space time or different places in space different
times in time
And get information
That seems like in this physical world
You shouldn't be able to get right. I mean that's what i've been studying and
and i've shown that that's the case at a great
At a rate greater than chance
Especially if people are in a place of self-transcendence or feeling love
And so
That
Suggests
That there's this sort of link about what we call
God or love or universal love or
This ineffable
Force
I don't know what to call it universal love i'll call it
Um
It suggests that there's a link between sort of what happens
In the universe and what we experience and what we do and what we intend
And this universal love force. So I want to
As a scientist i'm like, how do you make a physics of love?
So I want to
Think about it as something that I can think of
As what I could do physics or math on and that would the way that comes out
Is like this informational soup or something that has
All that information there and then it is
We play with it throughout our lives
Right, but how would it have all the information from now to the end?
Because time doesn't work in this linear way that we're used to experiencing
right like
That's what precognition is showing us
If you can get information about future events at a rate above chance and I can
do that and other people can do that and
And actually most people can do that according to the statistics and they're
just not conscious of it
If your physiology is changing
Then that means that sort of information can leak backwards from the future
Right, but can it leak backwards an infinite amount of time like could it link
backwards all the way to the end of the universe?
Where it dies of heat death and so
Jamie's bringing up this oh the akashic records here, right?
I was gonna bring that up. Yeah, it's a modern esoteric term
The idea of a cosmic library that stores every event thought feeling and
intention that has ever occurred often said to be accessible through psychic or
mystical means
That's that has ever occurred
But what about forever in time in the future the potential future?
yeah, so in theosophy and
Anthroposophy
Yeah
Uh, what is that word?
Anthroposophy
What does that word?
What does it mean?
Yeah, what does that mean?
I don't know I don't get whether anthroposophy there's all these
Anthroposophists and they're related to the waldorf people
But I don't totally understand it's perplexity our ai sponsor trying to flex
Oh, okay, cool
That's what it's doing. It's flexing on us showing us how smart it is
They're described as non-physical compendium of all universal events thoughts
words emotions and intents spanning past present and potential future
So potential future meaning forever
So the idea that we're somehow or another
When these people are able to sense something that's going to happen or know
about an image that's going to be displayed
That this small leap in the future of a few seconds or a minute or whatever it
is
It's also accessible forever. It's like there's no distance
That's time if you just think about time as a landscape
Imagine time as a landscape. There's a mountain. There's a waterfall. There's a
tree
And we're used to just walking in in single file right in one direction in the
landscape
But if you fly a plane above you could say oh, I see on the other side of the
mountain. There's this waterfall
And so flying the plane above is like
Doing any of these mystical practices like with the akashic records or doing
remote viewing or
Accessing that information accessing the landscape in a different way not
through this linear
Sort of physical
Dimension or reality or whatever we want to call it, but through some other
like maybe you go to a different dimension
I don't know how to think about it mathematically
Maybe you go to a different dimension
The thing about memory and consciousness and just the idea of future and time
at all
Everything is made out of matter, right?
We are made out of atoms
Ideas aren't made out of matter
No, but i'm going to get to that. So the idea is that
If we are made out of atoms
Well, that means
Subatomic particles exist inside of us
Subatomic particles are made out of magic
Like what they do is they exist in superposition. They're moving and they're
still at the same time
they
They can be quantumly connected to other particles that are nowhere near
So why wouldn't we think consciousness that exists?
Supposedly at least if not exists is tuned in by our own minds
That's somehow or another that's probably connected in some weird
Spooky action in a distance way
Well, it's not even weird as you said
It's exactly what we're made of, right?
So we call it weird because
We're trapped in this
Monkey mind
We're trapped in this like linear. Yeah
Oh, it works like this. Oh, the ball will always go in this direction
We're trapped in that, but we are made of quantum particles as you said quantum
wave particles
By the way at the larger level than the subatomic particles
You have chemicals in our body that are actually
You know in quantum coherence or super superposition
And so and in birds and in leaves. I mean, that's how photosynthesis works
So don't get me started on quantum computing because
I get a little pissed off about this because
Okay, I know we were talking about consciousness
Yeah, okay. All right. I'll just go on my little train
My heartbeat is going wild. Is it?
Yeah, because this is remember this is really
Something that is really important to me for some reason that I don't
understand quantum computing is
Our mistake our current mistake with quantum computing
But what I believe to be the current mistake
Misunderstanding
So a leaf is is using
Essentially quantum computing to do photosynthesis
In a way that we don't
That we can't replicate right now. I mean at room temperature above room
temperature if it's out in the sun, right?
It's keeping these chemicals in superposition
It is
Able to trap energy from photons
Better than anything that we have
It's um
It's doing quantum computing without
A lot of expense
So when we go and we
Decide that we want we want to be the first in quantum computing and we're
going to invest all this money
In like super cooling systems and
Uh, and very difficult to understand error correction methods and all these
things working on trapping single particles
At the subatomic level and that's how we're going to have to do it to make it
to force it into these patterns
like
Come on. We're doing something wrong like
A leaf can do it outside in the sun and does it all the time
We're doing something wrong. So
So I started thinking that way
Like 12 years ago
And uh
Got really passionate about photons and how photons are kind of like this
Almost like a link
This is another thing that i'm going to say you're going to be like why do you
think this but
Regardless it came into my mind that photons are kind of like a link between
mind and matter
Like they're not really
Like you said, they're made of magic. They're not really
Matter they don't have any mass
You know and they're actually they're bosonic particles
So there's two type types of particles one one is a fermionic named after enrico
fermi
And those are things we're used to like
Protons neutrons electrons
um
And then there's bosonic particles which are things that
Generally, I think they none of them have any mass
And they're very different
Like the higgs boson is one photons as another example photons are another
example
I think there's a version of helium that's also bosonic
But what makes it bosonic is
Um, it could be in the same place
At the same time as another bosonic particle
And then another one and another one and another one
So like they kind of don't exist in physical reality
It's like
We have this idea that two electrons can't be in the same place at the same
time and they can't but these can
And and so it's almost like they're interacting in another dimension. That's
less physical
and
It seems just interesting to me
That we think a lot about what a photon would feel and I just I just keep
thinking
That there's some connection between what we call mind and what we call brain
that has to do with photons
So anyway, I got obsessed with photons and I started thinking about
The double slit experiment. Does your does your audience know what that is?
Probably but a refresher probably good for everybody. Okay. Yeah, so
When I first told my husband about the double slit experiment, he's an artist
He's like
I'm like that never occurred to me because I'm like I'm ready to explain it to
him
And he's like couldn't get off that but anyway, it was peeps and butt heads.
Yeah
You said double slit
So
Uh imagine there's like a like a flashlight at one end of a tube
And then there's like a um a photon detector at the other end of the tube
And in between the flashlight and the photon detector are two slits
And they could be in cardboard or metal or whatever. So there's two slits here
and they're very skinny
And the reason I say they're skinny is because they're so skinny
That if you turn down the light enough
Only one photon is going to get through and it's going to have to choose
between this slit or that slit
And the weird thing is if you do this over time
You'll see the pattern at the photon detector at the other end of the tube. It'll
look like
An interference pattern. What does that mean? Oh, look at you. Yeah, here it is
Yeah, so the electron beam gun
Electrons goes through the double slit and at the end of it you get this very
bizarre pattern
Yeah, and this pattern and so I was talking about photons, but yeah, you can do
it with electrons
You can do it with larger particles, but um and that does it doesn't matter
but um
if you
Hear that one double slit up there
Is really good. That's a good one. Yes
So
There's two two pieces of it that are weird the first bullet up there that you
can't see on the screen
But it's going to say that when you send a single
Particle one at a time it has to choose between the slits, but it still
interfere
It seems to interfere with itself in space. It's like it goes through both slits
one particle goes in two places at once
It's called non-local in space. It's non-local. In other words, it's not
behaving like we're used to
It's not behaving like a billiard ball. It's going to one thing is going
through two slits
So I kept looking at this and saying
Well
It might be non-local in space, but if it it could be non-local in time
And by that I mean that if you put electron or a photon in there
It could be interfering from
The future like with another electron or another photon
That happens in the future and there's actually an experiment you can do to
test that and I wanted to do the experiment
so
First of all, did you understand what I just said?
Okay
So the way you could test that is
Look if
The photon that's gonna
If the photon i'm just like saying now i'm gonna pretend i'm a photon
I don't really like thinking of photons traveling because I don't think they
really travel
But anyway, i'm going to pretend i'm a photon. I just got shot out of this
flashlight or this light bulb
i'm traveling towards this light and
I interfere with another photon that wasn't just shot out of the light bulb
It's going to be shot out of the light bulb in the future
But it's just sort of hanging out there
Because it's floating around in time is it is the actual light able to do one
photon at a time
Yeah, if you turn it down
Enough it is how could you measure whether it's one photon you calculate
You can just calculate the expected amount of light that should come through
with the detector
And it's that accurate down to a single photon
You yeah, you can calculate based on the speed of light and the emission
And the where the detector is okay, how much yeah, so you can turn it down to
that level
And I mean, I think I think it's this experiments like almost I think it's 100
years old
uh, so they were able to do that way back then and
So imagine this photon gets shot out of this flashlight it interferes with
another photon just like it from the future
Just imagine that's possible
if that's true
then
In experiments where you have a lot of photons available to interact from the
future
Like in other words, the light is on for a long time
The interference pattern should show a different sort of pattern
than if
You don't have very many photons in the future. So the light's not going to be
on a long time
So the experiment I wanted to do and that I did
Was look just randomly determine how long this experiment's going to last
How long are you going to leave this light on into the future?
And then look at the very first period of time like look at the first 30
seconds
And after 30 seconds you randomly choose
Are you going to turn this light off or are you going to leave it on for
another two minutes?
In the first 30 seconds, can you determine what the choice is going to be
Based on the pattern if you can that means this thing is interfering in time
And it turns out you could
So I ended up replicating that and replicating that and replicating that
And then a friend at UC Berkeley who teaches the advanced physics lab there
Said I want to set up my own equipment
Do the exact same experiment. I'm going to run it over a year
And I'm going to see if I get the same result. So he sent me his data. He
walked away
I analyzed the data
And I figured out the equation that relates
The amount of future time after the decision to
The detection pattern before the decision
And so
That's the kind of result that I think is going to actually shift quantum
computing
Because you're working at room temperature with groups of photons rather than
trying to trap them
And you're treating them more like a giant unit
This unit in time
Rather than this unit in space
And so actually
Can I name drop my new company?
Yeah, what was the results of his data?
Oh, that the same result happened?
I mean
So it really was that somehow or another the photons were able to predict the
future?
Yeah
Well, if you think of a box
Okay, so think of a really deep well
Let's think of a well with water in the bottom
You cannot see
You can't like look over the edge
It's so deep you don't know how deep it is
So you might drop something in it
And then you listen for the ding
And you can have a sense of how deep it is
It's a little like this
You can't know in
Sort of with our eyes
How long that experiment's going to last
But you're getting a little reverberation from the future
In the photons
It's like they're telling on themselves
Like we've got a lot of future photons to interfere with
So we're going to behave in this way
Or we don't have so many future photons to interfere with
We're going to behave in this other way
One of the things that people are very familiar about
That know about the double slit experiment
Is the idea of the observer
And how the observer changes reality
Yeah
What do you think is going on there?
The word change is super telling
Because when you think of
When you're asking about timelines before
So uh
Hey can you pull
Can you pull up like a picture of timelines
And and retro like a picture of retro causality
Can you look at retro causality and put up a picture
I want to want to say something about the word change
Because we have this idea of
It was supposed to be like this
Whatever it is
It was supposed to be like
That's a kind of a complicated one
Oh gosh there's all these complicated ones
There's a look
That path diagram
Boom boom boom
No that's why are they all so complicated
Let's do this
No
Well what is it about them that's so complicated?
Well because people don't really know how it works
And so they make all these different pictures of it
Okay I'm just let's ignore that
I'm just going to make a picture
Okay okay
Imagine a figure eight
So we normally think of things just going like this
Figure eight goes oh I go back
Like that
I get the information here
And I bring it back
Exactly
And so it's more like time is doing that
Our events are doing that right
So I guess
What was your original question though?
I got obsessed with pictures of it
Oh timelines change
Observer
Yeah
So the thing about changing something
Is
If it was all
If it was
I like to use the word influence
Because if it was already
Always going to happen
You didn't change anything
It's not like you're on a different timeline
It's that
The future influenced the past
Right
But the observer influences reality
In the results of the tests
So if you do an experiment
Yeah
Let me explain that effect
And then
So with the double slit experiment
The result is
That indicates this
If you put a little detector
By one of the slits
Because you say
I'm going to trap one of those
I'm going to trap a photon or electron
I'm going to figure out
Which slit it's going through
So you put a detector
At one of the two slits
If it
If you get a bing
It means it went through that
If you don't get a bing
It went through the other one
Right
What happens is
The actual outcome
Now looks different
You don't get the same
Interference pattern
You get a single slit
Interference pattern
As if it didn't
It wasn't non-local
In space or time
It didn't interfere with itself
And it just kind of like
Went through like a billiard ball
And so
That's where the observer effect comes in
There's this idea
That you have observed
You've tried to trap the photon
During its flight
So that's
The other reason
Why I think that
Mind and photons are related
Is because there's something about
The knowledge
I almost again
Think of it informationally
But it's like
You just gained knowledge
About this system
As our knowledge mechanisms
Of our mind
You've just gained knowledge
And it has now changed
It's almost like
The photons are part of mind
So of course mind is affecting mind
And so
Mind observing the photon
Changes the path of the photon
It changes mind
Changes the behavior of the photon
Changes what we see
As a result
It's like
Like effects like
So if photons are like mind
And mind interacts with mind
Now both minds are different
You have gained this knowledge
The photon has gone into this different place
It's
The
The problem that it's so weird
And so weird to think of
That and observing something
Changes it
That it makes people
Start to consider
Okay, like
If that's the case
How much of observing
The known universe
Is a part of it existing
It all
All of it
It's like this figure eight
That's the thing
Is that
That's just a great example
It seems to me
Of mind observing mind
Your mind and my mind
Will never be the same
After observing each other
Just like with
Every other person we meet
Right?
We're constantly changing
We're like influencing
We're constantly influencing each other
And it is like this figure eight thing
Carrying it back
So
I don't think there's any difference
It's just that photons behave more like our minds
So they're showing it to us
But electrons and you know
Anything that's doing the quantum thing
And so
Why do you think that we have a bad understanding of quantum computing?
Oh, I mean
No, I shouldn't
This is how we started
Yeah, not that we have a bad understanding of quantum
We have great understanding of what we are currently considering quantum
computing
Or maybe this is the way people are talking about it
It's the approach
No, it's the approach
It's this approach of
We're going to trap a single
Particle
Slash wave
We're going to trap a single photon
We're going to trap a single ion
We're going to
Have it behave in ways repeatedly
According to these commands
These gates
These gating functions that they do
We understand that
The problem is
It seems to me
It's forcing something that shouldn't behave that way
That doesn't naturally behave that way
To behave that way
It's like we're trying to imitate classical computers
With quantum computers
And we're not taking into account these group classical level properties
That clearly a leaf uses when it's doing photosynthesis
It has to
It's not building a super cooling system
And, you know, trapping ions
It's functioning in this really wet physiological environment
And it's doing just fine with quantum computation
So, it's more like the approach needs to become more naturalistic
And I think it needs to take into account these non-local
Temporarily non-local phenomena like the like the one I discovered
Well, aren't they considering that at least partially
At least it's being discussed
That this many worlds interpretation of the results of quantum computing
That something's happening that you can't account for in the known universe
Something's happening with the scale of the equations
That it's able to solve in the time span in which it's able to solve
It's not possible that the same sort of process is going on
That would occur if it was happening right here and right now
That it seems that it's gathering the computing power
Yeah, that's great
That's the whole point of quantum computing is to capture that
And yes, it could be multiple universes
It could also be retro causality
And people some people don't like the retro causality answer
I think that's actually more likely
So the retro causality thing would be that all time is happening in this figure
eight loop
And then somehow or another this quantum computer is able to tap into that
And have this infinite access to all potential future and past information
Right, and then I just think it's easier to do quantum computing if you take
into account
Excuse me
If you take into account this retro
Retro causality piece and these group properties
Of particles at room temperature that can tell us about the future
So the idea that this
Does that include a many worlds interpretation of the universe?
Does that is that also there?
I mean, is it possible that not only do you get the time
Of
All time available instantaneously that because it is a part of a loop and
somehow another
A quantum computer is able to tap into that but not just
This timeline in this loop in this universe
But multiple universes infinite in fact
That all of their time is also available
You know, maybe you the thing is
Sorry, i'm just gonna have to drink more water. No, that's okay. There's water
there in the glass too if you want
Yeah
Want some this coffee? I get so excited about this stuff. The thing is good
The thing is you don't need both and so
It could be both
I was just thinking this morning about how it could be both it could be both
You could have these loops
With the information retro causally bringing it back
And and you could have multiple universes of those loops infinite loops, but
they're kind of it's kind of like saying
Like you know how physicists really like to be to simplify things. It's kind of
like saying
We could do whatever we want we could pick it paint a picture of a fairy who
also does something
You know, and then there's a gnome over here that does something, but if you
don't need those things
You throw them out, right?
And so it's like usually either
People talk about multiple universes or retro causality, but not both because
they're solving the same problem
Hmm
But it is possible that even with our little monkey minds trying to understand
retro causality that we're
Not taking into account the possibility that retro causality might exist in
infinite timelines
Yep
I'm certainly
Certainly the universe works in ways that we don't understand and the deeper we
look the more confused we get
Yeah, and also you find yourself looking right into mind. I really do think
there's something to
The more you look into physics the more you look into mind
I mean all the the physicists from did you ever read that book how the hippies
saved physics? No. Oh
Sweet. Yeah, sweet good book about like the 70s and esalen and physicists. Okay
realizing like that's the real hippies
That's where the ass was
Flowing. Yeah, they're all tripping
And they had this experience of like if we really understood quantum mechanics
We just get it that it's mine looking into mine
Hmm
How do you think that?
Aligns with this whole extraterrestrial thing
You're pointing at my book. Yeah, yeah, just said this cover my husband did the
art have a nice disclosure
Yeah, it's like a little quirky like
Alien face engaging it took him five minutes. I love it. Um
Yeah, so
This book is not about aliens and some people get disappointed
It has an alien on the cover because people think of disclosure with aliens
right now
But it's really about
What you know what we fight can find out by going into our inner space?
Like what we can find out by tapping into our own
Wisdom and our own experience and not waiting for some authority figure to say
hey, this is what's true
And now we will reveal the great secret because honestly when that happens,
which could be literally tomorrow
Um, it might be today. It might be today with the release of the files. I don't
know what they're gonna tell us
Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of redacted stuff and flood the zone with
shit, but yeah, but uh
But when that happens, it does it's not gonna matter because when someone tells
you something
And they say it's true
It doesn't matter until you experience it
You know, it doesn't matter until it matters to you
Right and so that's a good point and so I think that disclosure if you want to
have a nice disclosure, it's really about
learning what matters to you and
Disclosing all your own weird shit
To yourself, you know all the weird thoughts like you're talking about that guy
in your head
All those weird thoughts that we have and the weird experiences we've had in
our lifetimes that we sort of vary
We say that like the thing about the ball lightning like every I still forget
that and i've talked about it several times
Um, we sort of say well, that's not normal. That's not usual. So maybe it didn't
happen somehow, but it did
you know
or people who have
experienced seeing uap or ufos or people who are psionic assets or
People like me who have psychic experiences all the time it's it's and how I
suppressed it so that I could go into get my phd
And then it came up as a flower later
I think that the movement has to switch like we need a copernican revolution
where we're not looking from for some authority figure to tell us what's true
I would I would agree with that but I also think
It really helps if someone who knows more than you who's honest can tell you
what's true
What I was kind of getting into well, I agree with that what I was kind of
getting into is this idea of retro causality
If all timeline exists in the future these things that people keep experiencing
Which uh, if you just extrapolated from what we understand about evolution from
ancient hominids to current human beings to
What do you think we're going to look like?
Well, that's what I think we're going to look like
Yeah, very frail things that don't need muscles
Very big heads kind of like weird arms and communicate telepathically
Yeah, it seems like and then I mean gender seems like that's the direction that
the human species is moving in like so
If you thought of this whole idea of time going in this figure eight loop
Then you would consider always that us. Yeah
well, so I
That hypothesis is one of the many hypotheses, but I think that's a really good
one
At least for the greys. Yeah, at least for when people describe as the greys
I think there people have described other kind of beings or creatures
Um, and there's this there's this guy michael masters who studies that yeah, I've
had him on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and
So we won't we if someone the thing is okay. So what if someone says that's the
truth?
It's still like
It's the same problem I have when I tell people like look all of us can
basically get information from the future
And so can photons like it doesn't matter until it matters. It doesn't matter
until you make something
it doesn't and that's
It doesn't matter until you make something like you show that something works
That uses this principle then people believe it
It's like general relativity lots of people don't know what it is, but we have
gps
You know, so we kind of have to say that's real
But someone saying something
And making something with it are two different things and so I i'm very
impressed with
What people like anna brady estevez who used to be at the national science
foundation is doing she made this company call
It's a I guess I don't know much about money companies. It's it's like a
fund
Some kind of fund investment fund called american deep tech and she's like i'm
going to reverse engineer ufos
Because that's making something from these principles
Well, there's a lot of people that believe that's already being done
Well, yeah, but she wants to do it in the private sector outside of
You know the big
Attempting to reverse engineer well, she's she's not she's building a fund that's
trying to invest in different companies that are using
These kind of principles like alternative propulsion or you know informational
time travel or these kind of principle space time metric
And so she's one of many people
Who recognize that we have to get sort of out of the top five?
Contracting companies who are holding all the knowledge about this stuff
We have to build things and just go forward
Hmm
I know
What are you thinking?
Well, I mean
um
If this retro causality idea about aliens in the future does exist one of the
one of the weirder things is the back engineering part
because part of the back engineering
There's
If you do you know diana posolka is yeah, yeah. Yeah, so her work is very
interesting. You've had her on the show. Yes
Very interesting and I love her new book, too. Yeah, it's her books are great
Um
One of the things that she talked about though, was that the idea that these
things are donations
Yes, yeah, Jacques Vallée talks about that. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it and
so does
Gary nolan. Yeah, it's so it's this weird the people that have examined the
physical characteristics of them. They're very strange
Like when they've gotten these
Little bits like weird metals that we don't have
Yeah, atomically layered, you know, somehow or another printed and this is very
Strange alloys that would cost billions of dollars to make and they found this
crash in 1976
Like it doesn't make any sense. No, they seem like little to me. They seem like
little acupuncture
Points like in the history of humanity
Like little just little acupuncture like oh, let's put a needle there. Maybe
they could have an iphone
Maybe they could figure out how to cure cancer
You know, maybe they could figure out how to do faster than light travel
So it does feel like
Yeah, a little acupuncture and it can be done with with with artifacts like
people find and i'm you know
Reading diana poselka's book american cosmic
She talks about finding these artifacts artifacts and how she's like not even
sure she believes in them and I totally get it
I think I would feel the same way, but
but then
There's this other side to it. It's not artifactual. It's about consciousness.
It's about some kind of
Mystical awareness you can also do acupuncture that way, right? You could put
into someone's mind like
I'm not sure how I had the idea as a cognitive neuroscientist to do this
experiment with photons
I think you could put into someone's mind
Information that will be helpful to the future
And I think that happens to people all over inventors. That's the muse
Yeah, and and and the muse could come from the future, right?
Yeah, that's um, eric wargo talks about that. I've thought about that with
ideas that
Almost it's almost like ideas are a life form and this is the thought that I
had like if you think about
Everything that exists today that human beings have created
All that stuff came from an idea
Like the idea then manifests itself in physical form and we want to take credit
for it
We want to say oh, I made that, you know steam engine and you did right
But how the fuck did you do that? Like where did the idea come from because
ideas?
Anybody that's really honest about their ideas will tell you like boy. I don't
even know if that's my idea
It just came out of the ether every
Great thought that i've ever had every great joke that i've ever written all
that stuff just came out of space
came out of
Some weird place and i've always thought of that like
What if ideas are a different type of life form and it's a life form that
manifests itself through us in physical space?
And that's marshall mcclewin's thought um in a book from the 1960s
He said human beings are the sex organs of the machine world
Isn't that amazing that's amazing isn't that an amazing quote?
What came into my head so I love that idea?
I always thought of science as like a um
A living being like it like it has its desire and if you if you don't do the
experiment someone else is going to do it
Possesses you and songwriters talk about that too. If you don't write the song
someone else is going to write this
Yes, and you know the image I had in my head because I think in images was of
do you remember those play-doh
Heads that would have holes in them and you would turn the crank and the play-doh
would come out. Oh, yeah
Shave and haircut
That's what came into my head like it's just coming out of whatever hole isn't
blocked
And it just has its own momentum. Yeah, and then like what if one of those
little holes said oh look what I did
I grew this hair and it's like well, okay
Yeah, right I know that's what it's like. I mean most people that I've talked
to that are singers
songwriters
Authors in particular
They'll tell you that these ideas just sort of come out of nowhere and you just
got to be there to receive them
Yeah, pressfield wrote a great book about it called the war of art stephen
pressfield. No, I don't know
He wrote the legend of bagger vance and he's a screenwriter and just a
brilliant guy
But his book the war of art is really like a masterpiece because I I have a
stack of them
And I give them to comedians when I just read this because it talks about the
muse
And it talks about like treating it as if it's like a real deity that you are
summoning
And you do the work you show up every day you like have this intention to do
this and if you do that
It will be real. It'll and it is like these are
Things that come from somewhere else well into your head especially in comedy
because you have to be in the moment
You're not think I mean even if you write your whole show ahead of time
Right, Mike Birbiglia talks about this on working it out, right
Even if you write your whole show ahead of time if you're not in the moment the
timing is going to be off
Yeah, not only that it's not just the timings off the audience knows yeah
You could say things exactly correctly with the right timing. Yep, but they're
animals
They smell it. Yeah, if you're thinking about your laundry or something else
like they know
Like they know if you're really thinking about a thing. It's hypnosis. Yeah, or
it's like telepathy. They could I I
When I was this morning, I'm like, oh god
I just have to take a nap because i'm thinking too much about what i'm going to
say on joe rogan's show, you know
And that's just the worst when you're thinking about what you're gonna say
Yeah, because then if you say it as everyone could just tell you we're thinking
about like you're reading a line
You're thinking about a result instead of thinking about the process. Yeah, or
you're just not in the process. Right, right, right
Yeah, yeah
Which is so funny because we're sitting here talking about retro causality and
these figure eight things in the multiple worlds
And then we're talking about how important it is to be in the now
Which kind of like doesn't exist physically but sure exists psychologically
like it's all that exists
And we're also talking before about ego and I think that's a part of the
problem with the way people
Can create or not create is that you got to learn how to get out of your own
way and everybody talks about that
Writers always talk about that like you have to get just get out of your own
way
And that's really what's going on with this wrestling match with the mind. Yes,
it's like we're trying to like
Just be clear what and I think that's where probably some of this non-verbal
these non-speaking people
That's where they have this advantage. Yes, they're not they don't have the
same
Perception of themselves the way we do I bet
Um, not not at all or so they're free in that regard that they don't have that
monkey on their back
Well, but then they have another monkey on their back
Which is they live in this culture in which people think they're idiots
Because we read each other's bodies and we say there's something wrong with the
way you're moving
Your body you can't talk you're making these sounds and so you're free in your
mind, but you're not free in your body
And we're giving off negativity. Oh, what's wrong with this guy? And then they
hear it
And so when we were filming for a for kai's documentary
We all got together with the sound people and the camera people before our
first non-speaker came in for their trial
And we said when you know, they're telepathic, so
We're gonna do a little prayer right now that we can all be in a proper
Positive state when they come in and our first student came in said it was
really great walking through the hall and feeling that good
And and you know, it's not like we told him we did that but it was just
Validation that that was there and then getting out of your own way
Like god, I think that's less of a problem for these students. Is that a part
of the book?
Well, the reason i'm looking I guess that the book is that the first two
chapters
Popped out of me. I didn't know I was writing a book until I was on the second
chapter
What did you think you were writing?
I'm like i'm writing words on a page with this weird story about a guy who
hears the walls start talking and he's like what's going on and
And it's in the in it's in the second person like i'm saying you this is
happening to you
i'm like why don't i never written like that before and
The second chapter i'm like i think i'm writing a book and i don't know what
this is about and
By the third chapter i'm finally like what the fuck i mean what is going on
And so it was a discovery process so the whole first half of the book is this
discovery process of like
what am i trying to communicate
and
I had to get everything out of the way in terms of all like the scholarly stuff
like well
I better not say that nope didn't get to nope just had to say the things that
were coming up had to do it all
Just exactly as it was like I was writing a song
you know
And then what it kind of did was work on me like
Like it had its own process that I didn't think it was going to have
Like I thought it would work on other people. I don't know what I thought
I just had to write the words and then I just I guess in the back of my mind i'm
like it's gonna make people
Feel their own inner space in a way that's going to be unique to them and then
it turns out
I ended up feeling my own inner space in a way that was unique to me
And then I had to write about that so I ended up talking about this
This gifted and talented program I was in and um all the receipts I had from
that and what the heck was going on with that
It's funny to me how sometimes I'll swear and sometimes I'll say heck
I don't know why I'm like why like sometimes I'm like what the fuck and
sometimes I'll be like gosh darn it
Don't know what the difference is. Oh, I think about that all the time. Yeah,
but
Anyway, I it's a weird weird book, but what it did was open up
for a lot of people
Who were in these weird gifted and talented programs?
Opened up a lot of memories
And I ended up starting a support group for people who had these experiences
and
kind of
Don't know what to do with them and still feel the surveillance and the sort of
The feeling of being studied throughout your whole life
And not knowing if your your gifts are your own or if they were taught to you
in some kind of way that you've forgotten and
So anyway, I don't know why I brought that up. I guess about the I guess about
the getting out of your own way thing
I had to write all that down. It's the best book i've ever written. I've
written other books
They're good
But this one is everything. I wanted to say nothing. I didn't want to say and I
got it all out there
um
And I have a security clearance that I was afraid
That
It would get taken away from me if I said all these things because you talked
about remote viewing no because I talked about the intelligence community
potentially being involved in
um
gifted programs
Yeah, yeah, well, of course they are I would imagine they are
I would imagine they were trying to get talent in any way they can especially
if they actually invested time and energy
And we know they have and remote viewing and things along those lines. Yeah,
but the problem is
They were doing these I mean, I of course the entire
I'm I'm impressed with and know many good people in the intelligence community
and
At the time that they were doing these programs and giving students these weird
drinks and
Doing some kind of mechanism to remove memory of certain things
They were not asking for parental consent
So yes looking for talent understood yes
Doing trying to look for psychic I mean the intelligence community has always
been interested in psychic capacities
Not asking for parental consent
Bad and so they were giving you guys drinks
Do you know what was in it? No, um, I remember a pink drink that was chalky. It's
the same kind of drink everyone talks about
Um, and then what was the effect of that pink drink? I don't know so here's
here's the here's there's two memory lapses that are very
consistent
One was in seventh grade when I was explicitly told I was in a gifted program
rather than my earlier years when I just kind of had these pull outs and things
So in seventh grade, I'm in what's called the soar program this was in like 80
81
This is before gate gifted and talented education. I think it's just a
predecessor to gate
And I was um
Pulled out
Every week I think about every week to go see a counselor
But the counselor
Was really two people and
Um a man and a woman
Maybe it was sometimes just her but I think it was both of them and
They would see me in the small rooms, but all I remember is walking. I remember
walking down the hallway
To the room dreading that opening the door. I know which door it was I can
picture it
Shutting the door there's stuff over the window
And then I black out like every time and and I don't mean like i'm 57 years old
and I don't remember what happened in the seventh grade
What I mean is um when I would then leave I remember going back to class
And not remembering what happened in the room. Wow
So there's some kind of and this is not I mean
This is not different from what many other people will report who are in that
program so I think some amnesic either
Either the drink was the amnesic or the drink is something else and they did
hypnosis to make us forget or whatever
the other time
was when I was an adult I was
Adult-ish I was 20-ish
And I took some time off of college
To go uh hang out in palo alto because I had a boyfriend out there
I previously had a boyfriend out there and I was kind of
Into the stanford world I wasn't at stanford, but I was just into hanging out
there and I needed a job
um
And so I
It was the time when word processing was like you could get paid to be a word
processor
And I understood computers and I was like i'll be a word processor
So I either got I either saw an ad in the newspaper at lockheed martin or my
dad told me
I know someone you should talk to a lockheed martin for a job
I end up at lockheed martin for an interview in the morning
They hired me on the spot
Then
I remember sitting and talking to the guy during the interview
Uh, just I could see the parking lot behind him. I see the desk behind me. I'm
vaguely
sensing in memory
Some kind of weird equipment, but again no memory of that
Then I remember the end of the day
When I'm typing on a computer
My hands are shaking and i'm crying
and
I don't remember what happened between the morning and the night in that moment.
I don't remember
And I
Feel like i'm typing up a resignation letter
But it but in my memory it could have just been the thing I was typing up like
word processing
but I hand it to the
Boss and I go I can't work here
And he said oh, I thought you would have a great future at lockheed martin
I'm like why would you say that to a 20 year old who you know is going back to
college in like three months?
Um, what a weird thing to say
For to a word processor who you just hired on that day
And then I and then I left
So
um
I don't know what to say about those instances. My memory is usually pretty
photographic and
My auditory memory is excellent. Um
So do you think that the people at lockheed martin somehow or another had
Record of you being a part of this other program. I think that's one of the
reasons why they hired you
I I figure
Or my dad knew that and maybe the memory of him telling me was a real memory
I mean, so he was working for department of energy when I was a kid
And when I recently had a support group meeting like two days ago with with the
folks who were in these programs
and
Someone asked the question who here had parents who worked for either the
public school system or federal government
And everyone raised their hand and then something that I said who here didn't
like let's just make sure and no one didn't and so
Yeah
So the federal government is mining people's children
Seems exceptional so that they can use them for whatever they're trying to
accomplish
Well, or their contractors and maybe it's like
Excuse me
I get burpy when I talk about stuff that's hard
um
You know, maybe
Like I wanted I wanted to work for the federal government and I and I got a job
offer and everything went through the security clearance process and then doge
happened
but
But I was recruited four days after I filed a foia to try to get information
about that program
And then a couple days later
more burpy a couple days later
After I passed the first interview
I got a note from the FOIA people saying are you sure you want us to continue
this FOIA request four days later. I mean
That's not that's fast for FOIA like FOIA is not super rapid
And then I said no, I guess maybe not because I was thinking maybe the um
People who were going to hire me maybe didn't want me to have an outstanding FOIA
request
So I said maybe not and then three minutes later
I got a call from the recruiter saying, um, okay, you've passed to the next
level
Oh, wow
So I think that there's um, I know now so I don't mean to sound so the thing
that I think was wrong
unethical was not
giving students things to
ingest
And doing experiments that removed their memory
Without consent of parents and the students, right?
This is universal amongst all the other students. They all said that they lost
memory
Not universal. Nothing's universal some actually remember horrible
Abuse that I can't repeat here
But many of them don't have amnesiac periods and was the the same
With all of them was it a similar result that they're trying to achieve was it
some sort of exceptional powers that these children had or
exceptional ability exceptional cognitive ability like what was it?
It looks like they were looking for exceptional cognitive ability and
leadership ability creative ability and
psychic ability
Um, but no, so that's so I mean, I just want to say like
That's not nefarious to want those things, but it is from children, right?
And so this is the thing that is just like, okay, you're just taking children
and making doing experiments on them
It's like you're fucking weirding them out
They're supposed to be playing with their friends and having fun and living a
normal life
You've all of a sudden changed all of that by introducing them to scientific
experiments and making them drink
Fucking pepto-bismol or whatever they're giving you some amnesia
Whatever pink or some radioactive thing. I don't know. So I had this dream
Well, so the reason x-men type shit, sorry
Well, right and so the reason I bring that up is I had this so I know already
that i'm gifted at dreaming
telepathically and precognitively, right and
So I know that's true and then I have this um
Dream
After I moved to washington dc and i'm starting to think about working for the
federal government
I have this dream
I don't have a job yet or even a job offer
but
This car is following me in the dream. It's a red convertible
And there's a guy in the convertible and it has a little fbi badge on it on the
car
And i'm like why are you following me? So I just speed up and he keeps
following me. He says hey
We like how spunky you are, but call the office
And I go call the office. I don't have a job
And he goes
Call the office
He's very adamant
And so i'm pissed and I crawl up on the hood of the car and I look at him
You know as he's driving as one does in one's dream
I'm very aggressive and I said give me the phone number
So he gives me the phone number and I immediately wake up I write it down
It's the only time it's ever happened to me in a dream that a phone number
actually corresponds to a phone number of a government agency
So I look it up corresponds to a government agency that monitors radiation
exposure
And the first document I find online is this
Document about these tests of radiation exposure in humans that started in the
70s
And they're like look we can't do these tests on
Animals we have to do them on humans
It didn't say like let's give people radiation
Or it didn't say let's give people things that soak up radiation and help heal
them
It didn't say either of those things it just said we have to do this on humans.
It was from the nuclear defense agency
and so
That made me start asking questions about
Whether this has to do with trying to understand the effect of radioactivity
And so I looked into a bunch of history and I found out that my mom's my mom
grew up really poor
Both her parents worked at a uranium mining facility in denver
And of course her father her mother was a secretary, but her father was a miner
And he would come home with rate, you know uranium dust on his boots
and uh
So there's
There's intergenerational exposure, right?
So if you're if you're a parent if your mother especially because you know that
the eggs are she was like seven or so
But the if the eggs are in you your whole life as a woman, right?
And so if they get mutated
I could see now. Oh, I would potentially be studied and my sister as well
So then I started looking at all these places where these programs developed
the very first
Soar program was in the 70s and started in Aiken, South Carolina
I found a bunch of newspaper articles about it
Soar at the time stood for get this students on active research
Like let's just call it what it is
Out loud publicly crazy. Yeah, so, uh, by the time it got to me up in illinois
It was called scholarly opportunities in the academic realm
Active research is too creepy for people. Yeah, my baby. Yeah, but anyway Aiken,
South Carolina is right next to
The savannah river
nuclear facility that processed plutonium
And so and then there were a bunch of people who were in the sword program in
nevada, which is obviously a nuclear test site
And then I talked to a friend who
Who knows a bunch of special forces guys, but he grew up in a place where they
had these weird
Radioactivity like actual containers like in their school like storage bins in
their school
Which is just weird and he was in one of these programs and his friend was in
one of these programs
And so I think there might be something related to that and I don't know how
all this stuff ties in but the story i'm
Again, this is just speculation and based on
The receipts that I found and putting things together could all be wrong and
some of the my good friends in the intelligence community think it's pretty
nuts
but regardless
I would want to understand the effects of radiation on the human mind
Maybe it could
Make positive things happen like at low level at low levels. Right, right.
Maybe I mean i i'm as a cognitive neuroscientist. I get it
But you just have to ask for consent you have to talk about the risks you have
to be clear about it
And you don't it's clear that there's a file that kind of follows you right
when you're in these programs
Well, it's also very clear that if you look at the history of mk ultra their
whole motive
Operanda was it just do everything you want to do. Don't ask for permission.
Well, yeah
Do it to people operation midnight climax all those crazy things that they were
doing, but they shut it down
They were doing it to a lot of intelligence community officers. They said, okay,
don't do that anymore
So let's do it to prisoners. Okay, don't do that anymore. Let's do it to
children
Who's gonna who's gonna is the 70s who's gonna say anything about foster kids
Well, yeah, and people like me whose families were breaking up and also, you
know
You're in the public school and you're you know, your parents are trying to
hold their shit together
Um, so they don't know what's going on. So
yeah, it's um
It's unethical probably illegal
I and I understand that it may be for good reasons. I mean, I think all those
things are true
And I think it's interesting that if you talk to kids who went to the gifted
programs in the dc area
in that same generation
They say none of this stuff happened to them and which is a red flag
It's like you wouldn't want to do it to the the executives are living in the dc
area, right?
The executives in the intelligence community and in those in those contractors
So you wouldn't want to do it to those kids because those are the kids of the
executives
Oh, I know
Ew, I know
But I mean isn't that always the case like that's also why those are the ones
that don't get drafted
Yeah, no, it's the privilege. Yeah. Yeah
It's creepy. Yeah, I know it can go down a really bad rabbit hole, but I
That's what made me want to all this kind of difficulty in my early childhood
Brought some clarity and also I guess probably my my psychic abilities or my
precognitive abilities
As an adult has brought some clarity around what really matters
And what we can do to make the world a better place and and how we can heal all
that because
Every single person in that equation was doing the best they could
Even if they were making shitty choices
You know like someone I could imagine
The counselor who knows what's going on whatever they're doing to me in that
room
I can imagine she you know felt like okay. I have to do this for
To get the country to find out yeah, we need to do this for the country and we
need to do this for humanity
you know
And so
There's a lot of forgiveness like every once in a while. I'll just send love
back in time
Well, that's a very balanced view now
I understand why what you were talking about like your youthful experience that
you would want to
Live it over again. So you could forgive people and get over the trauma of it.
No, I understand. Yeah
Yeah, yeah, well, that's why i'm wearing this shirt because I started applied
love labs
Yeah, I started that nonprofit in 2019 and what we do is we apply love
weaving it through time
In like technology and events and curricula. So I would love to show off
One of our coolest things. Can you go to time machine dot love?
We built a time machine. Whoa
So we actually use this with um
With some native tribes and with some there it is
Enter your time machine. Yeah, what is this? So this is
it's like a
Journaling an audio journaling app
That essentially prompts you to give messages to yourself and it says it's
going into your time machine and then later
It comes out and you hear yourself and it has a bit in the future
It has a bizarre impact because what happens is
We're not used to here
We're used to getting little messages from ourselves like written
But not your actual self talking to yourself. Yeah, and it changes people and
it seems to be a real favorite of
veterans and
people who've experienced addiction and abuse and any kind of situation where
they could say like i'm going to be here tomorrow and this is
These are the choices i'd like to make, you know
And i'd like to love myself and i'd like to feel love for other people
So we've used it at cook county jail with a group of people there
Who really found it powerful and
With a couple of native tribes
Who would like to change it a little bit and make it fit their culture a little
better, but
still
It looks like unconditional love itself like from the math if you look at the
statistics of the results of this experiment we did
It looks like unconditional love itself
Caused a huge shift
Along with someone's time perspective
In which they started to include more like started to love themselves over time
more like it's like a big bubble that extends over time
That makes sense
Yeah
Yeah, it makes sense. It totally makes sense and it and it's how I handled
I sort of wanted to make that up because that's how I handled my childhood
abuse
Was I can I get your book again?
Yeah, yeah, I feel like we just scratched the surface here. We've already
killed three hours, but I feel like it's been three hours
No close to it. Yeah, um, I feel like you and I could do a bunch of these so
I would love that definitely because I feel like we didn't even talk about
remote viewing
Oh, let's just do a whole show on that because I was a teacher of it
And then i'm an experimenter and then I have a team next time you come in for
sure
Okay, we'll do that. Yeah, thank you very much. This is a lot of fun. I really
enjoyed it joe
Excellent and the book is called have a nice disclosure julia mossbridge phd
right there
Go get it
Did you do audio book? I did did you read it? I gave you a free copy? It's me.
Yes
I don't like audio books where it's not the person. I agree
It's like so stupid and the publishing companies will tell you no
You have to have this actor do it and i'm like no because you can hear when you
listen if that's that person exactly
Yeah, I agree. I'm glad you did it. Yeah
All right
Bye everybody
you