#2148 - Gad Saad

How you doing? What's going on, man? Good to see you. 10th episode. Crazy! Unbelievable. What are the odds? Short of your regular crew. Am I in the hall of fame? Yeah, you're in the same, there's very few people that have had 10 episodes. It's a small handful for sure. I mean, I should put that as the top thing on my CV. Oh, the other stuff is bullshit. With 10 time on Joe Rogan, drop the mic. This is how out of the corporate world I am. I don't even know what a CV is. I don't know what it stands for. I know people say it, I know what it means, but I don't know what it stands for. Well, let me tell you what an academic CV looks like. What is the Stanford? A curriculum Vita. Ah, okay. You basically in academia, you'll start with your education, all your degrees, all of your positions that you've held. I was assistant professor here from here then, then all of your journal publications, all of your books, all of your conference art, you know, on and so on. Right. So it can end up being a pretty beefy CV. I think mine is about 47 pages long. Oh my goodness. Look at you, you accomplished the actual thing. Speaking of words. And manage to stay logical. How did you do that? Oh, you're a new book. Dropping on May 14th on Happiness. You know, sad truth, to A's about happiness. Eight secrets for leading a good life. Enjoy it. How have I been so productive? How have you managed to, I mean, people have got to know it to you, but you've somehow another avoided like a full scale cancellation. Well, with your positions, it's kind of amazing. It truly is. It'm kind of like the velcro, the Teflon Don. The velcro is the opposite. Right, right. Nothing sticks. They've tried to cancel me in all sorts of ways, but that speaks, by the way, to one of the powerful reasons [2:02] why tenure, despite the fact that a lot of people despised the concept of tenure, oh, it's just a bunch of lazy academics who are going to be deadwood for the next 30 years. But if I didn't have the protection of tenure, I'd be gone long ago. Now, that doesn't mean that I still haven't suffered many consequences, right? So I haven't gotten other jobs that I would have otherwise gotten because of how irreverent I am. You know, the death threats, so for example, now after October 7th, it's almost became impossible for me to go on campus. Because first of all, you know, I'm high profile. My university has a particular demographic reality. And so there are consequences to speaking out. So you can't go on campus literally? I mean, I have gone, but during the points when there were a lot of protests outside, you know, the campus and so on, or on campus, because our campus is an urban campus. So it's hard to say where the school begins and where the city is. [3:02] Right. You know, you have death to Jews and the free, free Palestine and the Defada and from the river to the sea and there's 800 of them screaming and you're going to come in, many of them know who you are. They know that I'm not very supportive of their positions and so it's going to be a bit challenging. So on a few cases, I did it via Zoom. Other times, I had to have security with me. So I would have to check into security and they'd have to walk with me to class and so on. That's not a good thing. I'll tell you another quick story if I may. Please about what happened after October 7th. So I'll first talk about what happened in Lebanon. So the day that we escaped from Lebanon, for those of your viewers who don't know about us, we were Lebanese Jews. We were there until the start of the Civil War. We were there in the first year of the Civil War. And then we had to leave because if we became impossible to be Jewish in Lebanon, when we left that day, it was from Beirut to Copenhagen, Copenhagen to Montreal. As we cleared the airspace of Lebanon, [4:08] the captain, I discussed this in chapter one of my previous book, The Percetic Mind. He said, okay, we're now out of Lebanese airspace. And so my wife, my mother, pulls out a pendulant with the star of David, puts it around me, my neck, and says, now you can wear this be proud and not hide your identity. Now that's in the past, but now I'm going to link it to the current reality. About three weeks after October 7th, my wife and son came to pick me up from a cafe where I was working on my laptop. My wife had picked up my son who was playing a soccer match in the east and the city. And so as I got into the car, he says, Daddy, if you had come to where I was playing soccer today and you were wearing a star of David, you'd be dead. So 1975, a star of David has put around me and now I can wear it proudly. 45 years later, I better [5:02] not wear a star of David in Montreal, Canada. That doesn't both too well, J. At a kid soccer game. Because the demographic reality in that neighborhood is such that a star of David would be viewed as provocative incitement. What's crazy to me is regardless of how you feel about how the Israeli military and the army is pursuing the war in Gaza, regardless of that. The blatant, just out in the open anti-Semitism that we see today is like nothing I've ever seen before. Like, like, roaches coming out of the woodwork. Like what? Like, you see it all over social media and it's like this, if this was September and not October, like if this is just, you would be, you would be shunned. Everybody would be like, this is horrible. How the fuck could you say this? How are you, you're openly anti-Semitic. You're openly blaming the Jews for all the world's problem. [6:02] This is crazy. This is Nazi shit. And yet you're seeing it everywhere now. When those teachers were in front of Congress, when those principles of those universities were in front of Congress, and they were saying that it's not harassment to say death to the Jews, unless it's actionable. Which is the craziest mental verbal gymnastics I have ever heard anyone say that's in that position and a position of being the head of Harvard, it was so crazy to watch. It's so crazy, it's almost like we live in an alternative timeline. Like we entered into a new dimension. Like in our sleep, we woke up, we were in a new place. You know, nothing should surprise me given the history that I have growing up in the Middle East. But I was taken aback after October 7th at the Jew hatred that I was exposed to. Now my positions are really not inflammatory. So for example, I'll say things like, you know, I'm worried about my, I have a lot of extended family in Israel, [7:06] right? So after the October 7th happened, for me to just kind of call around to make sure that none of my cousins and their children and some so no one was harmed will take a while. Well, that itself, the fact that I cared about my family was incitement, was I'm a Zionist, I'm a baby hiller, right? I am personally responsible for the IDF killing any innocent children. But it's not just that, it's coming at you from all directions. So in the past you could say, okay, Islamic sources are going to send you Jew hatred, and I'm used to that. You could say the neo-Nazi alt-right types, Jews will not replace us. They're coming after me. You've got, of course, the academic progressive left types who are also anti-Zionist, which is just code-sweet word for anti-Jewish. And so everywhere you turn, there is Jew hatred, and it's so normalized. Now, of course, in part, it is emboldened by the fact that a lot of them are anonymous. They don't put their real names so that they can take the liberty to be this orgeastically [8:09] you know, Jew-hater. But it's just, it's so disenchanting to see that that guy could be my gardener, he could be my surgeon, he could be my dentist. I don't know who he is, but there are millions of those folks who hold those beliefs. It's unbelievable. I think a lot of them are fake as well. I think a lot of them are Russian and Chinese trolls. I think there's a disturbing amount of them that's responsible for taking this kind of discourse and pushing it to a much higher level and making it more ubiquitous. I really, really believe that and there's a lot of data to support that. And I think that's part of what's going on with social media. It's definitely a big part of what's going on with Twitter and TikTok. And a lot of these things where you see these very inflammatory messages that seem to be pushed, they're pushed through and promoted. [9:02] And like to the fact that you get them all the time. They show up in your feed all the time. Even if you're not subscribed to these, even if you're not following these people, you'll find this disturbing content will show up in your feed. And I really firmly believe that we're being manipulated. I really do. And I think there's a lot of these young kids that are on these campuses that are very malleable. They're very easily influenced. And they don't need, they don't, I mean, so many, I'm sure you've seen Constantine Kisson from Trigger Namathur. He's done these interviews with these people, these protests, and so many of them are completely ignorant. They have no idea with it. They're just doing it because they think they're a good person. They're putting up their flag of virtue by saying free palestine from river to the sea and they don't even know what that means Yeah, like what do you say you know what you're saying? You're saying wipe out Israel. Is that what you're saying? Not only that and a lot of cases their supporting regimes or ideologies That would be perfectly antithetical to their main identity. So we're here's for Palestine [10:01] Chickens for Kentucky fight chicken or I like to use geese for forgra because I'm from Montreal. I mean, imagine if you present yourself to the world with your queer identity, which is great, good for you. And now you decide, okay, let me see, should I be supporting Tel Aviv, which is one of the most queer friendly places? I mean, short of Montreal, New York, San Francisco, Tel Aviv is right up there. So you would think that if my key identity, my definitional identity is my queerness, that I'm certainly putting all my chips with Tel Aviv, no, it's with queers for Palestine. So that's exactly what parasitic thinking is. Yeah. And I really do think that's supported by other countries. I think they realize how vulnerable and idiotic a lot of Americans are and they're just pushing that. And whether you realize it or not, social media, even if they're saying something ridiculous, it's very influential. And they can just move the boundaries a little bit by having the most extreme content, the most ridiculous [11:06] things, be so common than less extreme content that would ordinarily be considered ridiculous, now becomes accepted as normalized. Yeah, yeah. Which is what you're seeing. Yeah, exactly. Can I point, I mean, you alluded to it earlier about, you know, what the IDF might be doing. Can I just mention a few things about that? Sure. And I'm hardly the spokesperson of the IDF, but it's an idea that I've been toying with, and I'll pitch it here for the first time. So you know this notion of equality of opportunities with this is equality of outcomes. Typically, we link it to all of the works stuff. So equality of opportunities is great. Equality of outcomes is a cancer to human dignity. Okay. Let's now apply that concept, equality of outcomes, to war casualties. So, I think this is what happens when people say, oh, but the IDF is being grotesque because the currency that then matters becomes how many dead on each side, equality of outcome. [12:04] But let me change it to a different moral currency. Let's talk about intent. So for example, in the justice system, you could have a person who is found guilty of involuntarily vehicle or homicide and he kills four people. So four are dead. So that's equality of outcome, four were died. Versus someone who took out a hit on his entire family, his brother, sister and parents, so that he can gain when the insurance money. But it's an undercover operation. The cops catch you. Even though on that case, there were zero killed. Correct? That person will get a higher sentence because we understand in the law that intent matters. So now I think you know I'm going with the analogy. So in the Palestinian IDF conflict, when say Hamas launches 6,000 rockets, every single one of which is intercepted by the Iron Dome, [13:01] had they not had the Iron Dome, then the outcome could have been that 50,000 would have been killed, right? And an ideal world from Hamas's perspective, our intent would be to eradicate every last Jew they have it in their charter. So yes, it is true that if we just count the number of people who were killed on October 7th versus the number who were killed in the retaliation, if that's the only calculus that matters, then oh yes, the IDF has gone way overboard. But once you change it to an existential intent issue, then maybe it's not such a bad of an outcome as you think. Notwithstanding that a single innocent dead is a tragedy. That's, you could say it that way, but the problem with that is the iron dome does exist and Hamas's military capabilities are far below Israel's it would be like if Some small person tried to punch me and I moved out of the way and then beat them to death [14:01] And I said no, I had to defend myself. I beat them to death and then beat them to death. And I said, no, I had to defend myself. I beat them to death. But I didn't have to beat them to death. They're just small person. Even if they hit me, it wouldn't really hurt me. You know what I'm saying? Like defensively, I'm not worried about a real small person. It doesn't know how to fight. Who throws a punch at me. So what would be in your moral calculus, the ideal outcome that should have happened as a retaliation to October 7th. That's a very good question. Obviously, I'm not a military analyst. If I was, you know, you do have to take in consideration the tunnels. You do have to take into consideration the infrastructure. The question is, did they just knowingly bomb places where there was going to be hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilians knowing that there's going to be a few homos? And that's what scares people. What scares people is that someone is willing to kill women and children just to get at bad guys and they just say that's just part of the game. That seems horrific in the 2024 understanding of human life in morality and just the horrors of war [15:08] that you know they're blowing up mosques they're blowing up schools are blowing up apartment buildings everything anything where they think a masses so again let me preface and i shouldn't have to say this that a single person care that's innocent is a tragedy of course but compare that reality to almost any other war that you have in working memory. Why is there a unique, unbelievably high threshold of morality that is placed on the Israeli nation? Now, you probably already know this. The IDF does go through a lot of painstaking effort to try to minimize that. They drop leaflets in Arabic. They even sometimes call people in Arabic and say, don't go in this area. So, of course, they've killed many, many innocent people. But they're placed between Iraq and a heart place. What can you do? [16:00] The other side knows exactly that if they do exactly what they're doing, either you don't retaliate and we win, or you retaliate very harshly as they have, and then you still win, right? Today, the propaganda war has been completely won by Hamas, right? There's a complete genocide in the informational war against the IDF, right? One other point, and then I'll see the floor back to you. This the term genocide Jacques Derrida was a very famous postmodernist who developed the field of deconstruction as a language creates reality, right? He was one of the guys who allowed the the ecosystem of up as down men could be women left as right, slavery is freedom, right? It's that postmodernist game that allows these kind of insane ideas to flourish. Well, when you misuse words, like everything is a genocide, that's, that does, that does no one a service. There is no genocide. There is a killing of a lot of people. Again, every single one killed is a tragedy, but if Israel wanted to commit a genocide, [17:06] by the end of my appearing on this 10th time on this show, there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left. So if they were genocidal in their intent, then they really are shitty genocidal maniacs, because first of all, the population, as you know, of the post-Staninternals has gone up five folds, right? So that's really sucky genocide. And they've killed, depending on the count. Right, but that's all previous to this military action that's going on now. What are the numbers that you know of right now? It's hard to say. You know, I mean, Israel has one one statistic and then there's other statistics by human rights Organizations that it estimate at least 12,000 missing in the rubble that are probably dead and 30,000 dead now at the the number of those 30,000 what percentage is Hamas? I'm not sure So I've heard the the most favorable estimates to to the IDF are about one to one ratio the The less estimate, it's about one to one point five. [18:08] Okay. One to up to one to two. So if they kill 30,000 people, 15,000 or Hamas. So are you saying? That would be best. No, if one to one would be 15,000 to 15,000, and then you can take it from there, right? Okay. So a one to one. One to one one to one half of them. So half of them. Yeah. So half of 30s 15 exactly. Okay. Right. So now Let's compare it to and I don't know if others have made this analogy when when you drop the bomb the atomic bomb Almost all the people who were killed were non-combatants, right? So then that ratio would be 250,000 killed to zero. I mean, unless there's a few Japanese military guys that were in Nagasaki or Hiroshima, you dropped. And again, I'm not trying to say, oh, but they're not as bad as these other guys. So they're okay. Let's give them a ribbon and a medal. But again, it is anti-Semitic when you place one group of people to a standard of morality [19:02] that is not expected of anybody else. So for example, if you really care about Arab lives, then you certainly should care about all of the Yemenis that have been killed that are a lot more than whatever has happened in after October 7th. You would care about the 500,000 Syrians that were killed. You would care about the war between Iran and Iraq that led to several million killed and on how about a Lebanese civil war a 150,000 died in a very bright, but that's not happening currently so people aren't totally aware of that Like just those statistics that you brought up the Lebanese deaths Just most people are not aware of that most people that are discussing especially college kids are not aware of that That's why I'm here. Yeah, I mean, it's all ugly. It's all awful. There's nothing that you could say that is in any way shape or form positive about any of this. The question is, is there another way to do it other than just bombing these areas where you know Hamas is and civilians? [20:01] There is another way, but I don't think it'll happen. Can I share it? Yeah. So Golda Maier, who was the fourth or fifth Prime Minister of Israel from I think 1969 to 1974, has two quotes, which I'm going to paraphrase. I don't have the exact quote. She said, if the Jews put down their arms, they'll be a genocide. If the Palestinians put down their arms, they'll be peace. So just remember that for a second. Second one is if the Arabs, she means, in this case, the Palestinian Arabs, if they were to love their children more than they hate ours, then they'd be peace. So why am I saying these two quotes? Because this battle is really not about land. In a sense, we've already addressed this on previous shows where I've come and discussed about some of these Islamic issues. It is an existential affront that the Jewish states state exists in the Middle East. So look at all other religious minorities across Arabia. [21:02] Egypt used to be completely copped at Christian, 100% many hundred years ago. Today they are 10% cops left. What happened to those cops? There used to be tons of Christians in Syria. What happened to those Syrians? There used to be tons of Christians in Lebanon. There still are some about 30, 35% but it's Lebanon used to be a majority Christian country. So the goal of Islam, not individual Muslims, right? Again, I don't need to preface by saying there are millions and millions of lovely, kind, peaceful Muslims. Of course there is. But Islam as an ideology, does it tolerate others? Well, we have 1400 years of history that either says it does or it doesn't, right? We don't have to watch TikTok videos. and nothing could be clearer than what the words of Muhammad were, the prophet of Islam, who said that you need to rid Arabia of Christians, but certainly the Jews. So the existence of the land of Israel is in a front to that. One more point I'll see to correct you. In Islam there's a concept called Darul Islam and Darul Harab. That means the [22:06] House of Islam and the House of War. Anything that's under the Islamic control is good. Anything that's yet to be under Islamic control is under the House of War. Once a territory is under Islamic control and you lose it, you have to get it back. It is your dominion forever. This is why, for example, under the Lusia, which was at one point controlled, which is in current Spain, which was controlled by the Moors in Islamic conquistador. A lot of jihadists will say, in inshallah we have to reconquer under the Lusia, it is our land, because once it's under so Israel existentially cannot exist. So why am I saying all this? You can't have peace if you have the other side that truly never wants for you to exist. That's the bottom line. If you can change people's heart where they say, look I get a piece [23:03] of land, you get another piece, let's build an incredible vibrant co-society together, you'd have peace. But if you're taught from straight out of the womb that the Jews is the reason for every calamity in the world, you're not going to have peace. But don't you think that there are Jews and there are Israelis that treat Palestinians as if they're less. There is that in Texas in terms of treating people who are Hispanic. The darkness of the human heart is not monopolized by one group. They are super nasty Jews and they are incredibly lovely and kind Jews. They are super nice Muslims and incredibly brutal Muslims. So there is no monopoly on the darkness of the human heart. So I can see that. Of course, there are Jews that are not very keen on having Palestinian neighbors. But as someone who grew up in the two worlds, right, I'm an Arabic-speaking Jew. I hang around with tons of Muslims. I hang around with tons of Jews. Have I ever heard somebody in my Jewish family say, oh God, [24:03] I can't wait for us to eradicate the 1.52 billion Muslims in the world. I've never heard that. Have I heard incessantly all the time about, in Shall'a, we'll get rid of the Jews every second. You just have to say, hi Ahmed, the next line is God damn it, we've got to get rid of the Jews. Now it's become a lot. Isn't it that common where you are? It's as common as the heat in Texas. It is definitional. As a matter of fact, I introduced the game, I mean facetiously, but I mean it's seriously six degrees of Jew. So that's a play on six degrees of... Kevin Bacon? Exactly. So I give you a calamity in the world and you've got up to six causal steps to blame the Jew. So the Amazonian frog just died in the Amazon go. And so I will post these on Twitter and people give answers. Now oftentimes they're just playing along but that's the mindset. You got diabetes. Well that's because the Jews who are controlling the pharmaceutical industry are not releasing the drug. I'll give you a recent one that I failed. [25:05] So I put up a police line-up of some guys that had been caught in Huddersfield, which is a town in England, who had been grooming and raping young British white girls. And you may or may not know this. I'm not sure if we've discussed it in Britain. Over the past 25 years, there's been an unbelievable industrial scale level grooming and raping of young white girls by Asian men. That's a euphemism for men of a certain religious heritage, but you say it's their Asian. So their names are, let me summarize them for you. Muhammad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Ahmad, Did anybody help me? Do you know how many people wrote to me and blamed it on the Jews? Not facetiously. So now I'm gonna ask you Joe. How? [26:09] I was just gonna ask you that. How is it when three Mohamed's rape your 12-year-old British girl You blame it on Mordechai? Three Mohamed's lead to Mordechai. Tell me how you tell me. I don't know. How did they do it? Who let them in? It's the Jewish Kabbal who controls immigration policy. It's George Soros, the Jew who controls the open society ideology. I don't think you can really just connect George Soros to Jewish. If you look at his policy, he seems anti-Western civilization. I agree. But for the Jew for the Jew-hater, any, any causal explanation. So, one individual who just happens to be Jewish. Or they point to some other one. There's one, I don't even know who she is. I think Barbara Learner or something. Somebody will correct us in the comments section where they show her saying something, oh, you know, we need to flood and she happens to be Jewish. But for every Jewish person who is pro-openedore policy, [27:06] there's a counter-Jewish person. Here's one who is not for open-border policies, right? Stephen Miller, who worked in the Trump administration, is Jewish. He's probably the biggest anti-openedore immigration. So, but that's the mindset of the Jew-hater. Everything is blamed. There's this incredible diabolical feature of the Jew that they're able to at times pretend that they're victims, but really they're diabolical and genocidal. It's grotesque, man. It's weird. It's just weird that it became so out in the open. And that's what makes me think that they've been influenced. I just can't imagine there was that much anti-semitism before October 7th. But why? The influence is coming for what purpose, just to see the create havoc? Yes. Yeah, to keep people at each other's throats, I really think so. And also to completely screw up democracy, you know, like people have lost all their faith in voting, they've lost all their faith in the money behind politics and the influence behind politics. [28:06] And the more this stuff just gets brought up, the more chaos there is, the more hatred there is, the more divide there is. Even amongst the Democratic Party, right, which we talked about the other day, like some large number, we think it's around 70% of Jewish people vote Democrat. But now, the Democratic Party is full on with this Palestine thing. And you see it on college campuses, this rampant anti-Semitism, death to the Jews being tolerated, literally saying that, yelling it out. And by the way, you can go back, so I wouldn't be able to tell you which number, which episode, but you can go back to earlier episodes that have appeared on this glorious podcast, where you will see that I would have predicted exactly what we're seeing now. And it's not because I'm a prophet or it's not because I'm so intelligent. It's because you simply have to have the power of having the imagination to extrapolate from a current trend to some future and outcome, right? So if you let in into your country, people who have [29:09] genocidal Jew hatred as an endemic feature of their society. So I'll give you since people love stats. So there was a pew, pew is a nonpartisan, if anything they probably lean towards being more woke. So pew has these global surveys that they conduct. So in 2010, they conducted a survey looking at how favorable are you towards the Jews across a whole bunch of Islamic countries. Now, if you were to, if I were to tell you that 10% of the Polt people exhibited, you know, Jew hatred, you'd say, oh boy, that's a big number. 10% is a lot. Okay. How about if I tell you that for most of those You'd say, oh boy, that's a big number. 10% is a lot. Okay. How about if I tell you that for most of those pulled countries, it was between 95 to 99%. So let me, I know people understand what 95 to 99 means. If I pull 100 people, 95 to 99 will express very problematic Jew hatred. Okay. [30:02] So now, if I let in 100,000 such people into the country, it doesn't take a fancy evolutionary psychologist and a professor with a 47 page academic CV to say, well, probably Jew hatred's gonna go up. So that's what we're seeing now. We're seeing the outcome of having an immigration policy that has let in people that don't share our foundational values. Again, this doesn't mean someone's going to write in the comments section, what a hypocrite. You're an immigrant Gatsad. Well, there are immigrants and there are immigrants. There are tons of Muslims who want to come in here and leave all that baggage at the door. They want nothing to do with that. They just want to live the American experience. The problem is we don't have the machine that can look into your heart and mind, right? So it's a statistical game. So if you're going to let in hundreds, I mean, look what's happening in Germany, look what's happening in France, look what's happening in Denmark. What let me ask you is, why do you think that stuff is happening? Why do you think this is mass immigration? So that's a great question. So it's covered partly in parasitic mind, my earlier book, and in my next book, which I call suicidal empathy. [31:07] So empathy is an emotion that has evolved for very clear evolutionary reasons. So just like any of our other emotions, for example, envy, there are evolutionary reasons why we've evolved the emotion of envy. It can compel us forward. I see that Joe's doing well, keeping up with the Joneses. Maybe it's get me off my fat ass so I can work harder. So there are very clear evolutionary reasons why empathy exists. But the problem is when empathy misfires, it either becomes hyperactive or it misfires in directing the empathy to the wrong person. So for example, illegal immigrants, more important than American vets, right? And I can show you many public policies where you have these insane policies, all of which are due to suicidal empathy. So to answer your question, I think that the Western mind is, we are kind, tolerant, compassionate, empathetic people. [32:04] There are people out there, they're Guatemalan, they're Honduran, they're Yemeni, who don't have it as well as we do. Wouldn't it be nice if we open up our doors? So the reflex is a noble one. It's a nice one, but it exists in Unicornia. The real world doesn't operate that way. If you let in people that have a huge hatred of homosexuality, are you going to have an increase in homophobia in your country or a decrease, right? So I think that's the answer. The answer is misdirected empathy across the West. Is it really that simple? Because it seems like it's happened so rapidly, that it seems like a plan, like a plan to create more chaos. So it's happened, the border policy in America is puzzling. It's very, it's baffling because it seems like there's a plan that flood the country. So it's sort of a conspiratorial kind of cabal. [33:03] It seems like there's something going on that's allowing it to happen even though everyone recognizes it's a problem and it's solvable, but they don't solve it. In fact, the United States government is actively tried to stop Texas from enforcing their border. But I think that's just, so I've often tweeted that the most dangerous weapon in human context is a parasitized mind, right? I mean, a bomb is dangerous, but it is the human mind that activates that bomb, right? It's a guy with a little mustache that said that Jews are the real problem in the world and I need to get rid of the world of that parasite, right? So parasitic thinking, I mean, one of the reasons I think that that book did so well is because it really explained how all of these parasitic ideas came to a head together. And they were all spawned on university campuses over the past 40 to 80 years. [34:00] So one hypothesis is what you said, which is there is kind of a grand scheme that's willfully doing this. Another one is that all of the Western leaders of roughly the same age, I mean within 20 years of each other, are all a product of a Western education, university education, that was completely infected with these dreadful parasitic ideas so that when these leaders go out there and have the power to enact policies, they enact these policies. So my view is slightly different from yours in that I don't think that there is a super mega, you know, willful plan. It's just that all of those Western leaders are the product of a really shitty university system. are the product of a really shitty university system. Hmm. Right, but there's obviously two schools of thought, right? There's the left wing school of thought, the right wing school of thought in regards to this. The right wing school of thought wants to seal our borders, wants to secure the borders, wants to stop illegal immigration. The left wing wants, I mean, I don't know what they want [35:03] because they start talking about border policies being a problem as well want because they start talking about border policy, it's being a problem as well. And they start talking about the issue with the border and they try to blame Trump for the issues with the border, which is always hilarious. But they're just so, with that kind of stuff, when Biden blames Trump for things that he clearly did, it's just gaslighting, right? And it just shows you how little respect they have for people's ability to understand what's actually going on. Well, look suicidal empathy. I mean, we can move beyond the border. How about say in the justice system? Suicidal empathy results in you carrying more about the perpetrator than the victim. That's suicidal empathy, right? Because that argument, so here's how that left this argument works. If a person, especially a criminal of color, commits a crime, that's probably because he grew up as a person of color, so he's already been marginalized by the society. So now he commits a crime. You're now double whamming him by putting him in the penal system. [36:00] So you need to be more caring. So he's already got 57 previous arrests. Let's give him a 58th chance So again, I don't think it comes from it comes from really Parasitized thinking right right but that those policies are supported by George Soros Specifically and they mean he actively goes after DA's that have the most lenient and ridiculous policies in regards to No cash bails releasing violent criminals like that seems like that's done on purpose the A's that have the most lenient and ridiculous policies in regards to no cash bail releasing violent criminals like that seems like that's done on purpose that's done within 10 but it's done on purpose so I think where where we made the first you think it's because there is a duplicitous evil let's cause havoc whereas I think they actually believe that that's the noble position right and there should be no borders. There is no illegal human. What kind of bullshit is this? I mean, why do you have a lock on your door, right? So why is it that I get to have sex with my beautiful wife, but all these homeless guys are sexually starved? That's not fair. That's the parasitism of socialism. [37:01] We're all equal. Why do you make a lot more money than I do, Joe? That's not fair. I need to have as much money as you, right? So I don't think, I mean, I hope that it's not what what you what you're saying is true because then that's even more sinister, right? That there's kind of a who-who-who. I just think it's people who are misguided in their misdirected nobility, right? I think it's both. You think it's both, yeah? Yeah, I think it's both. Maybe it's both, yeah. I think there's definitely a lot of misguided people, but I think there's definitely a plan. It's just, it's too organized. The DA system, the DA thing with funding, the far leftist DAs, and then funding someone who opposes them, who's even more ridiculous, that seems to be a plan. Yeah. And he's got a pattern of that. And he seems to enjoy it, enjoy spending his money in that way. But he enjoys it. I think it's like this crazy game. Right. What do you think about what's going on with your boyfriend Trump these days? Oh, the trials? The trials. Fascinating. You know, I had Mike Baker on who was a formerly CIA, but formerly. [38:04] But we were talking about that, that no one's ever been charged for something like that before. No one's ever been prosecuted for something like that before. Certainly no political opponents. And my thing is the danger, the people that are on the left that don't understand that now you've set a precedent. You've set a terrible precedent. And if Trump does get an office, what does it stop him from going after all of his political enemies in the same exact way? Yeah, are we gonna do this now every time someone's in a position of power whether it's a governor or whether it's a president or what have you when they have a political opponent they will hire people to go after that political opponent and Trump up a bunch of Trump up no pun intended.. A bunch of bullshit charges and drag them through the court so that everybody's, the people that only have a peripheral understanding of what's going on. So, oh my God, he's a criminal. Keep that criminal out of the white house. Like, okay. Do you think a lot of people who historically had been against Trump are now honest enough to see [39:04] what a chandelier whole thing is and are revising their positions or do you think that? There's quite a few, yes. Really? Yeah, but it takes a lot of bravery to do that. And depending upon your social environment, you know, there's a lot of people that just can't step outside the lines of whatever the ideology their neighborhood is attached to and their community is attached to. The reason why I asked the questions is because I recently appeared maybe about five, six months ago on a British psychiatrist show a small show, but I thought he was a really interesting guy He want to talk about how you apply evolution and psychiatry and so on So I was like let's do it towards the end of the show or maybe it was even the last question He said in your 30-year career as a behavioral scientist as a professor. What is the singular Human phenomenon that has surprised you the most? Which I thought was an amazing question. I had never been asked before. Question. Yeah, it's an amazing one because I've seen tons of stuff. And so I paused for a moment and then I said, I think it's the inability of people to change their opinions once they are [40:02] anchored in a position. Yes. And so it wasn't that spirit that I was asking you the question. Have some. Because in my experience, despite the fact that I have a chapter in the parasitic mind on how to seek truth, and therefore I'm offering a vaccine against falsehood, I'm actually quite pessimistic for some people who go, la, la, la, I don't want to hear it. Because they're so anchored, there's no amount of evidence that I could ever show you that can move you a millimeter from your position. That's very this hard. It's very disheartening, it's very foolish. I always try to tell people do not be married to your ideas. You should not connect them to you. They are just ideas. They are not you. And if you have supported an idea that you find to be false and you are afraid to admit that you were incorrect, that is far more weak than being incorrect. Because now you know that you were incorrect, but your pride [41:01] is keeping you from admitting it. That is beyond foolish and now people will always know that you're going to do that with what? People will forgive you if you make mistakes. People will forgive you if you're incorrect. We have all made mistakes. We are all occasionally incorrect. I mean correct all the time. But I make a big point of not attaching myself to ideas. I will argue them if I think they are correct, but they are not me. Yeah. You know, Patrice O'Neill had a great quote, and he said, you could hold your opinions, but don't let your opinions hold you. Right, beautiful. Yeah. You just, you got to know that you're not ideas. You're a human being being and it's a challenge when you are faced with the reality of the fact that you've made an error, especially if you've been bold about it, if you've been condescending to people who disagree with it, if you're ego-tistical in your position, you connected yourself to righteousness [42:02] and intellect and science and whatever other words you wanna throw around that make your opinion More valid than the other people's been and then you find out you were wrong, right? Okay, if we are ever gonna trust you again, you have to tell us why you were wrong How you're wrong and what that feels like and what you've learned from this because if you you don't, if you keep arguing that, you keep doing it, now we have no respect for you. Foulchie. We know Foulchie is the word, but he's worse than that. I think he's far worse than that. I think he's deceptive. I mean, if the real Anthony Foulchie, the book by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is not, if it's not accurate, he would be sued. He would be sued. And just forget about what happened during COVID, just what we know took place during the AIDS crisis. Everyone should read that book. Everyone should understand this same game plan was played out during the AIDS crisis. And it's a game plan where they're in cohorts with the pharmaceutical drug companies [43:00] and they push this thing as being the only remedy and this is how, and they make tremendous amounts of money. And that's all real. This is not tinfoil hat, conspiracy-wearing shit. That's real. But if you supported him because you thought that he was the science and then over time, you have realized that, oh my God, they did work with Peter Datsick. They did fund through another organization, gain a function research. He did lie about it. It was talked about in emails. He did contact people who were saying one thing and had them change their position. He did. They did ridicule the lab leak theory when they knew it to be correct. They knew it. They knew they were doing the exact same research on the exact same viruses in that exact same place where it broke out They knew it right and they lied because they wanted to cover their ass and we let them get away with it Yeah, and I'm God we're talking about the inability to admit to a wrongdoing in science because oftentimes when you think about people Who are anchored in their positions you think political arguments. You think that somehow you romanticize scientists [44:07] as being unbiased for veiers and pursuers of the truth and nothing could be further from the truth. So I'll give you just a couple of examples, historical examples. I mean, of course, Galileo is a perfect example. Copernicus is a great example. Darwin is a great example, but let's look at some other ones that people may not be familiar with so I think his name I don't know not sure how you pronounce it. Semmel-wise He was the gentleman who arguably has saved more people than anybody else in medicine. Do you have any idea who this? No, is he the penicillin? Not the penicillin. That's What's his name sir Fleming? I think that's Fleming. He's I think it was a Scottish Physician I felt mistaken. No, this guy is the gentleman who told other physicians that they should wash their hands. So do you remember? He was a, I think he was a Hungarian physician who was noticing that a lot [45:02] of, there was this huge mortality rate of women as they were giving birth. And so he started running these naturally occurring experiments where you either, so the physician has just worked on a cadaver and then goes and does the obstetrics. So when he said wash your hands, he died, I think, penniless, destitute an mental asylum or something, right? And then later people said, oops, he was right. Because they didn't understand bacteria. They didn't understand bacteria. Yeah, that guy's right. That's it. Samo likes exactly. Could, could Derivic particles, is that mean? Could Davor's there. Yeah. every case of childhood fever was caused by a resorption of cadaveric particles. Oh my God. But the blowback against this guy from the senior physicians, I mean, this guy was destitute. He died completely unvalidated. I mean, it was only post-hawk that he, there you go, nervous break down. [46:02] So allegedly suffered a nervous breakdown was committed to an asylum by his colleagues in the asylum who's beaten by the guards. Oh God. It's incredible story. Here's another one. I don't remember his name. The truth tester, Jamie, will get it out for us. There's the gentleman who won the Nobel Prize. I'd say in the last 20 or 30 years for arguing that ulcers are caused by a particular virus or an office of virus or a bacterium and everybody laughed them out of town, ended up winning the Nobel Prize. So I often joke with my students, I say, if people laugh at your ideas and fight them, it's either for one or two reasons. It's a really shitty idea and it's worthy of that division or prepared to go to Stockholm to win the Nobel Prize. Because I mean, literally, it's one of the other. It's one of the other because the Nobel Prize is nothing but a history of people saying what a quack this moron is. No way. Oops. Here's your Nobel Prize doctor. [47:01] And isn't that because of what we talk about? Because of ego and that ego being connected to your ideas of someone comes along with a revolutionary idea that's contrary to what you currently believe, you take it as a front to yourself. Exactly. It's horrible. So I give a talk, this is going back to some of my early appearances here where we would talk a lot more evolutionary psychology. I give a talk at two talks at University of Michigan when my first book came out. It was an academic book. Evolutionary basis of consumption. How do you apply evolutionary psychology and human behavior in general, consumer behavior in particular? I give the talk in the psychology department on a Thursday and everybody's like, oh yeah, this is gorgeous because a lot of the psychologists were trained in physiological psychology, biological psychology, and so on. So they were totally appreciative of the fact that you can't really study human behavior without understanding the biological signatures of human behavior. Okay, then I go to the business school the next day, raw school of business. I give the exact same talk. Okay, I couldn't finish a single sentence because all of the professors, [48:02] and it was usually the professor, it wasn't the doctoral students who were, because the doctoral students are still malleable, their brains are still being formed, they're happy to listen. It's the senior professor who has spent 30 years arguing that human minds are born tabulara, empty-slated, and it's only socialization that teaches the consumer to be how he or she is, that they were really offended by my stuff. So they would constantly interrupt me and berate me. And I remember, as a side person, no. My wife was in the audience that they should come with me. And prior to that talk, she had said, oh, I feel really sick. I probably have food poisoning. We later find out that she was pregnant with our first daughter. So there's both a really bad memory and a really good memory associated with the University of Michigan. So what was their position when you were saying this? Biology does not exist. So they were interrupting you? Non-stop. I probably got through... So let's say I don't remember the number of slides. Let's say I had 30 slides. I maybe got to slide 10. [49:00] Because so here's first question. Oh, if everything is due to evolutionary pressures, how do you explain homosexuality then? If everything is due to survival instinct, how do you explain suicide then? By the way, there are evolutionary explanations for suicide and homosexuality, right? Humans are sexually reproducing species even though chased monks exist, right? People do have a survival instinct even though some people commit suicide. Men are taller than women even though you're and Julie is taller than your Uncle Bob. So what happens with people in terms of a cognitive obstacle, they take a singular datum as proof that a statement that is true of the population level has been violated. It has it, right? Every single WNBA player is taller than most men, that does not invalidate the fact that men are taller than women. So all of the morons in the University of Michigan were also coming to that kind of stuff, right? Because they didn't like the idea to our earlier discussion that we've had on the show. A lot of people [50:02] don't like the idea that we are biologically determined. They think that that's a form of you're just an executor of your genes. But that's a wrong view, by the way, because everything is an interaction between your genes and the environment, right? Even specific genes get turned on as a function of the environment. So the fact that you believe that we have biological imperatives that guide our behavior doesn't make us blind executed our genes. Right. And that's what's important. But the idea that everyone is born a blank slate is so silly because there's children that don't even grow up with their parents that have traits that their parents have. And also, have talents that their parents have for some strange reason. And called their dog the same name. There's a lot of weirdness to it. There's a lot of weirdness to memory, the genetic memory. Like whoever you are, it's not as simple as you were a baby. You started off clear and blank. That's not real. [51:00] We learn things somehow or another through some... We learn things somehow or another through some Under I guess it's explored but not quite understood process Yeah, and this process even encourages things like racism There's there's even detrimental ideas that are inherited through children right that have been proven but they don't know exactly There's the mechanism, right? So I, because you mentioned memory, so maybe I could talk about how you study memory from an evolutionary perspective. Please. So, is that where, can I ask you this before I start? Sure. Do you think that's where like a videophobia, a racneophobia, things like that come from? Yeah, so there is actually a lot of research looking at the evolutionary roots of phobia. That's studied in evolutionary clinical psychology and in Darwinian psychiatry. But the ones for me that are fascinating are a videophobia, an arachnophobia, fear of snakes and fear of spiders. Because that evolutionarily makes sense. If we either got bitten survived [52:00] or you saw someone get bitten or you see a spider you're like oh shit But that's why by the way you don't go see your clinical psychologist because you have a fear of guns or fears of cars Even though cars and guns kill a lot more people in spiders if you if you go if you study The manifestations of clinical cases of phobia, they're exactly what you're saying. Because you know, from doing fear factor, we would encounter people that had both of those. And man, when you see it in real life, it's like a person's possessed by a demon. It's crazy. When you see like high level of videophobia, people see snakes, their whole body starts shaking, they can't keep their hands still. It's crazy, man. It's not like, you know, I see a dog, let's say scary dog. Whoa, you live in that dog. It's not like that. It's like your whole body. By the way, I actually, I don't think it's at the clinical level, but in the parasitic mind in chapter one, I talk about the maladaptive, or maybe adaptive phobia [53:06] that I have of mosquitoes. So if, so early in my marriage to my wife, maybe that was one of the best ways to test if she'd go the whole route with me, is we were traveling to Antigua and we had the misfortune of some, you know, it's in the Caribbean, there are a lot of mosquitoes and there are a couple of mosquitoes got in. I spent with her, with her complete patience, probably until two in the morning, tracking and killing every single mosquito in that condo because the thought of that disgusting monstrous pig sucking the blood out of me was just unbearable. And so I, I mean, I literally will turn into a little girl if we see a mosquito in the house I cannot go on with my day. I can't watch TV. I can't train the mosquito must die now in a sense that's perfectly Adaptive because we know that by far if you add up the tallies of people killed by mosquitoes versus all other animals [54:04] Everything else. It's not even a miniscule. There's not another thing that kills people as much as mosquitoes. Right? So that's perfectly adopted. But do you want me to go to the memory stuff? Sure. So, think about, say, a squirrel. It has evolved a memory that allows it to remember the spatial location in your backyard where it stores caches of food, so that it has its own memory bias, so that even though it won't detect it by smell, because let's say in Montreal it's under four feet of snow, it has a mental map so that it perfectly knows where it hid everything, right? Now the human memory has evolved to solve different problems. So then if you are a memory researcher studying memory from an evolutionary perspective, you would say, well what would the human memory solve as an adaptive problem? So let me give you one such example. So if I show you a bunch of photos of people, okay, images of faces. And I put a descriptor next to each one where I tag that person as a social [55:07] cheater or not a cheater. So what does social cheating means? Lack of reciprocation. So if I do something for you, then you will cheat and recant and not I scratch your back, but you let's write right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right because they were good looking, not because they were cheaters, right? So I put this array of faces and then later I ask you to remember whether you'd seen that face or not. And people end up remembering at a much higher level any face that had been tagged as being a social cheater. Do you follow? Yeah. Therefore, your perceptual system works in cohoots with your memory system to pay attention more to [56:08] information that is evolutionarily relevant so that I'm more likely to recall it and remember it. So that would be an example of how you would apply the evolutionary lens to study how our memory operates. Here's another example, not in the case of social dynamics, but in the case of remembering where food's at. Here's another example, not in the case of social dynamics, but in the case of remembering where foods are. So if you ask people to go through a maze of food and then ask them to remember where particular foods are, they're much more likely to remember the locations of high calorie foods. So in this case, it's not that I have a domain general mechanism that just learns where things are. There is a sensorial bias to me being more likely to remember the location of something if it is evolutionarily relevant. There are many, many other such examples. That would be a wonderful demonstration of how the evolutionary lens adds a whole layer of explanatory power [57:04] to what typically memory researchers have done, which is usually they study memory as just the domain general mechanistic system, whereas the evolutionary psychologist says, no, no, but why did that mechanism evolve to be of that form? Right. And why do animals have memories, even if they're not growing up with their parents? How do they know to pee on fire hydrants? Exactly. Where are they getting this from? There's something going on there. How do they know to go after certain animals? I have a golden retriever. He loves all dogs, like little dogs, like the size of a car. I just met him, yeah. I mean, he's much more interested in people than he is, but he's never mean. But if Carl If Kro is a squirrel that size, you would be dead. So he knows the difference between something that's small, that's a dog, that's just tolerated. You know, oh, how you doing, buddy? Or something that's that big that's a squirrel, which is murder. I'm going to murder that thing. Okay. You said murder. That led me, because I was a... He's a murderer. He's a squirrel murderer, you called? A murder. So I'm going to tell you now about another study, and maybe Jamie can pull it off. [58:06] I think it's a guy at University of Washington, maybe. I hope I'm not wrong. Where he wanted to see whether crows remember the face of a really nasty guy so that they can, if he then comes again, they'll start calling. Right. And he kind of took like an image of the face and then he would either wear it or not. And then he would, I don't remember what the dependent measure was, but it was something to the effect of, then he's studying, there you go. I mean, I love it. I love having Jamie. So this guy had a mean face and he did mean things in the crow's recognize them and and so then it starts spreading to the entire group where they exactly know you see this face remember it he's a fucker that makes sense crow's are insanely smart oh they're smarter than most [59:00] do you have you seen the ones from I think new caledonia that do all the stuff with the maybe jaymy you could pull that from, I think, New Caledonia that do all the stuff with the, maybe Jamie, you could pull that one out. I think that's the smartest of all the, that Avaian species. They can take rocks and like a thousand different things to get food out of things that I guarantee you, you and I would sit there for 18 hours and we wouldn't crack that mystery. You have to figure it out and how to use tools to get other tools to extract food. Oh yeah there you go. There you go. It's amazing. It's unbelievable. They put rocks in there to raise the water level. I mean a little kid wouldn't even figure that out. I mean they're fucking smart man. Look at this. Look at this. It's crazy. Well I love it. It's also their brains are so small which really is really confusing. Bird brain. Yeah. It's also their brains are so small which really is really confusing bird brain. Yeah, it's really confusing like large brains don't I mean We don't really know how Intelligent in animal is unless we see it manipulate its environment or communicate. Yeah, because it's possible that elephants are insanely smart They have immense memories their memories are nuts like they meant Like they get reunited with their calves like 20 years later, [1:00:06] and they run and embrace each other, and it's just joyous. When elephants die, they mourn. They mourn the death. They have huge brains, but it's also a huge animal, but it doesn't manipulate its environments. We don't respect it. It's sort of like the way the reason why dolphins are in SeaWorld is because that's the literal slavery. It's slavery of probably a parallel or if not more intellectual species. Something with a cerebral cortex, 40% larger than a human beings. Something that communicates in a language that we can't decipher. Something that has different dialects. Something that operates in these very tight social groups, but they do some rough sex I don't know if you're well they do they're pretty dolphins are horrible dolphins are they kill their babies There's no hashtag me too with the dolphins. Let me tell you it's worse than that dolphins when they find a female And she has a child if he has not had sex with that that dolphin female that child's not his so he'll kill [1:01:06] Lines do the same, but what they'll do is the females will have a sex with as many dolphins as they can So you don't know so you don't know whose kid it is So that they don't kill the baby, which is wild there you go I mean, but that's how you live when there's no doors You know you're in the ocean is there's no doors. Open wide. Open wide. It's just wide, yo. That's murder soup. You said manipulate the environment. So have you heard of the Bauer bird? You know what that is? No. So the Bauer bird, maybe, sorry, I keep on. How do you say it? B-O-W-E-R. So the Bauer bird creates a Bauer, which is a structure that serves no purpose other than demonstrating my artistic... There you go! Really? So, by the way, you know what I'm loving about today's show? It's like I feel like I'm back to lecturing my evolutionary psychology stuff. [1:02:01] Good! I need a class! So look what he's doing. You see? So let me explain what's happening here, unless you want to watch it first. No, please explain. So what? It's one of the only species other than humans that uses artistic ability as a mating cue, right? So right, Picasso, short little guy, bald, ugly. He's got a huge lineup of hot women who want to have sex with him because he's Picasso. That's what the Bauer bird's doing. He's saying, look at how architecturally savvy I am. Look how symmetric my Bauer bird is. Not only that, by the way. They say, oh, there you go. Okay, she said you're good enough. Let's do this. Let's do this. Let's do this. Yes. Excellent trophies. So now, but you saw all those other blue things? Yes. So if you travel to Australia in certain regions, there are signs from the government saying, if you are women, don't be careful. Don't wear shiny things on your head. Why? [1:03:00] Because these assholes will come at you, attack the women's head, steal the shiny things so that they could use the shiny things in their power to attract the ladies. That's smart. That's smarter than most men. Not really. But I see what you're saying. But look at this setup man. This guy's got this dope pad. It's got like a bachelor pad with flowers in front, like ladies, don't you like flour? No, that was the girl. That was the girl. Yeah, that's the girl. Usually in avion species, the drab one is the girl and the flashy one is the guy. Right, like nobody gives a fuck about female flamingos. Yeah, fuck out of here, female flamingos. What am I gonna do with that? I need a dude with a Exactly straight around exactly if you got flamingos man. You're a baller That's a move right have a flamingo in your yard That's what I know so you only have a I'm thinking of peacock. Yeah, I have a dog I'm thinking of peacock. I'm doing the whole thing like I'm a peacock But I'm thinking of I'm saying flamingo. Yeah, I only have a dog have chickens too chickens too. By the way, are you, like, those exotic ones? [1:04:05] No, the little chicken chicken. Or just like regular chicken. They're like chicken, slightly eggs. But here's the, I'm scared to ask this. They become pets, you don't eat them, right? No, I don't eat. I will have somebody fucks around. Somebody tries to hurt somebody. I'll grab One of them was younger. This is my old group of chickens that I had when my youngest daughter was a baby. They were pecking her feet and there's this one country chicken that we had. And I feel like there's going to be a Christine no moment? No, no, no, no, nobody died. My wife, unfortunately, they all did. They all coyotes got them and dogs. Long story. Anyway, point is I go, no, she's trying to eat the baby's feet. Like, you gotta understand, this is not, this is not like she thinks that's a worm. She thinks she can get away with eating. They eat each other, they fucking peck at each other. They'll get, they'll murder a mouse. If you're never seeing a chicken and a mouse together, [1:05:01] whoo! Really, huh? together. Who? Really? We had a fence and this is very unfortunate, but we had a fence that was glass and one of the side effects of this glass fence was hawks and hawks would be swooping down and try to get a rat or some other rodent or something and they had bam. Nose dive into this glass and we lost like three hawks. I was like, this is fucked up. I was like, maybe we should go back to the other fence. My wife was like, fuck you. I like this fence. So it was, it was one of those conversations where we were like, like, this seems like it's our fault that these hawks died, right? So one of them made it. One of them lived and they took the hawk and they put it in like a big wash machine box and contact this wildlife rescue thing and they said, okay, if you're gonna have it because we're not open until Monday, you got to feed it thing. So what do you feed it? So you have to go to the store or so into the pet store, they get these things called pinkies. And when pinkies are just baby mice, they're baby mice that have, they're not gonna live. They're separated from their mother, [1:06:05] you feed them to reptiles. It's gross, right? And so the hawk ate most of them, but he did need one. So they were like, we're gonna raise it. I go listen, you can't just do that. You can't just like feed a bunch of these little things to this giant raptor and then say, now we're gonna take this one that survived and raise it, first of all, the nightmare as that little fucker would have. But second of all, it's not viable, it's not gonna, it needs, it's not gonna live. Yeah. I go, let's just give it to the chickens. So I brought it outside and I put it in the chickens cage. One chicken grabs it as fast as I've ever seen a chicken move and then every other chicken runs after that chicken and tries to get it away from her. Is it a defensive thing or they want to eat it? They want to eat it. They want to eat it. And so she has it in her mouth and they're trying to steal it from her and they just tear it apart and devour it like dinosaurs. Wow. Like it's so crazy watching them kill each other. [1:07:01] So I'm not feeling so guilty at the genocide of chicken that I eat. It's still fucked up because it's the soul of the animal. It's not being expressed as nature intended. The soul, the animal should be a chicken. It's not that you shouldn't eat chickens, but chickens should live as chickens. They should wander around and pick bugs and eat worms and do all the things that chickens love doing to have a chicken just in a box for its entire existence. You're stealing souls. Like you're doing something fucked up. That's way more fucked up than just raising a farm. If you got cows and they're on a pasture and every day they're just being cows, and then one day you take them in a stall and bang. This thing goes into their brain and they're dead. That is way less evil. That is way more humane than what's gonna happen to them in the wild. What are they gonna do? They're gonna either freeze to death or starve to death or get torn apart by wolves. Torred, if you're gonna have cows everywhere and people wanna reintroduce wolves everywhere, congratulations, you've got wild kingdom. [1:08:02] You've got wild kingdom happening in your neighborhood. If that's what you want. And if you don't want people to eat cows anymore, okay, what are you gonna do with the cows? Are you gonna sterilize them? Are you gonna keep a certain amount? Are you gonna play God with cows? Are you gonna say the cows can't breed? Are you gonna give the boys cows birth control? What are you gonna do? How are you gonna do? How are you gonna do? I'll get introduced predators. Okay. How are you gonna keep kids from those predators? How are you gonna keep dogs from those predators? Have you thought about this? Now you haven't. There's people that are reintroducing grizzly bears to Washington as we speak. We're gonna reintroduce the things that we killed because they killed everybody. We're so smart. It's bananas. These people are out of their fucking minds and they're not, they don't have a real understanding of actual nature. The horrible thing is this commodization of nature. This taking animals and factory farming them in these horrific conditions where it's illegal to film. It's illegal to have ag-gag laws. Because it's so traumatic. [1:09:05] It's so traumatic and so horrific you would affect the industry. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. That's what's wrong with eating meat. Yeah. What's being a part of the natural cycle of life is what made humans human. If you want the most nutrients, it comes from animal protein. There's a reason why it's so cherished. I made not in the using the same words, but I've made roughly the same argument when the tofu brigade came after me. Because I was offering some evolutionary reasons for why we have to have animal protein as part of our diets. And they were so pissed at me because they thought it was very hypocritical that on the one hand I could share so many tweets and post demonstrating how much I love animals. And then in another photo I show some stake or here's what my wife is cooking. And that to them was completely incongruous and was proof of my moral degeneracy. And then I actually created two sad truth clips where I was really demonstrating the evolutionary reasons, you know, archaeological data, [1:10:05] dental data, physiognomic data, anthropological data, and they just wouldn't have it. You're a hypocrite, you can't love an animal and eat an animal. So I'm glad that you... Well, there's a real problem with that, too, and this is something that people dismiss very openly, but I don't think we should. I think plants are alive, and I don't think they're just alive in a way that we can feel completely fine about growing them in this insane monocrop agriculture place and pouring industrial grade fertilizer and pesticides all over them. I think they're a thing that thinks. I think they're a thing that communicates I think they're a thing that communicates with their environment, but they just do it in a way that we don't understand. They do it through mycelium. They arrange resources. They allocate resources towards plants that need them more. They have some sort of a network of communication. I was going to say, have you seen the networks of fungi? Yes. Yes. Yes. Mindful. I had Paul Stammett in the podcast a couple of times and he's a mycologist and just a brilliant [1:11:09] guy and he really explains it all so well. It's so mind-blowing though the relationship that the mycelium have with the nutrients in the earth and that it's, the earth is not dirt. It's like a living environment. It's this environment that they've ruined through monocrop agriculture. And that's what's wrong with farming. It's not farming. Farming is a perfect way to balance an ecosystem. When those people do it the right way, like those people from White Oaks Pastures or Polyface Farms, regenerative agriculture people, there's like zero carbon farms, regenerative agricultural people, there's like zero carbon footprint of what they do. And in fact, it's sequester's carbon. You're growing things. It's manure and cows and it's all working together and the chickens are free ranging. And it's like, it's nature just in a contained environment. But that's normal. Have you mentioned the word soil? [1:12:02] So it made me think about, have you seen the research on, I kind of remember what the term is, but something like soil DNA, that I guess the pioneer is, I think he's Danish, either Danish or Swedish, I think Danish. And basically they go to these steps that are really, I'm not maybe not Mongolian steps, but somewhere where you expect to find a lot of the typical fossil remains and so on. But what they now do is they just do this excavation of soil. In the same way that people who study ice, you know how they can bore, and then they can date the various ice. So they do something similar where they kind of harvest tons of soil, and they're then able to isolate DNA of mammoths. Have you seen some of the stuff? Yes, I have. Yeah. That's mind blowing. Mind blowing. Unbelievable. Yeah. I actually thought about inviting that guy on my show. Maybe you should have him on your show. Yeah, that sounds fast. I need to talk about. It really is so interesting when you just think about this, the complex interaction between [1:13:04] everything on earth. The plants that we literally need plants to create oxygen for us and they're consuming more carbon. But that's one of the craziest things about Ginghis Khan. When Ginghis Khan lived, they killed so many people that places reforisted and they lowered the carbon footprint of Earth. That's a real thing. So, like, genocide was green. Yeah, that was green. If you looked at it, there's also like different ways, Dan Carlin on Hardcore History has the most amazing series. It's called Wrath of the Cont. I think you have to buy it on his website, but it's really cheap. It's like a dollar in episode or something. And it's really cheap. It's like a dollar in episode or something. And it's fucking amazing. It's amazing. And I think it's a three piece thing. Is it a three piece series on Jenga's Con? It's the correct way to say it. Timo Jean was his real name. And what he did and like the rise. That guy sped some jeans. Jesus, Louise. [1:14:01] That guy was busy. That guy get after it. I mean, spread some genes and killed some fucking people. Kill 10% of the population of Earth. Yeah. It wasn't that much? Yeah. Okay, I don't know. It was that much. 10%. Wow. Yeah. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 to 70 million people, they don't know exactly. There is a genocide. Bro. You ain't kidding. You said, oh, how everything is connected, which leads me to a concept which I don't think I've ever discussed on my 10 shows on your podcast. This concept, Consilience have you heard that term before? Sure. Yes. Yeah, like being conciliatory? No, no, it doesn't mean that all. Consilience comes from, I mean, it doesn't come from him, but he kind of reintroduced it into the lexicon. Do you know who E. O. Wilson is? I've heard the name. E. O. Wilson is a, he just recently passed away at the maybe age of 90. I just read his autobiography called Naturalist, Amazing, but autobiography. He was a Harvard entomologist and a strong proponent of sociobiology, applying biology to studies, social systems and so on. [1:15:03] And he was part of the original culture wars where a lot of his colleagues hated him because he was arguing that biology affects human behavior. E.O. Wilson, check him out, he's unbelievable. Well, in the late 90s, he wrote a book called Consilience, Unity of Knowledge. And that became one of the foundational books in how I did my academic career, which is, Consilience is trying to unify disparate areas of human endeavor that you typically wouldn't think should be linked together. So you could link the natural sciences, the social sciences and the humanities through the Consilience of Evolutionary Theory. So because you could study psychology, using evolutionary theory, of course you could study biology, using evolutionary theory, or you could study aesthetics, which is in the humanities, using evolutionary theory. So that became a really important concept in my own work because my brain operates as a synthetic machine. [1:16:01] I like to synthesize across. So one of the reasons why I decided early on to break out of just being an academic, because I couldn't see myself as a stay in your lane professor. I need to try to, right? So coming on Joe Rogan is going to allow me to share ideas and synthesize things with millions of people rather than writing another academic paper that if I'm lucky, will be read by 50 people and cited by 12 and so well before you came on though When you came when you came on there's being on the show is not that problematic In what you mean like people criticize being on the show because nobody even knew what it was well That's true once they did know what it was, people looked down at it. So I don't know if I've ever shared the story before, and even if I have it's worth repeating, I discuss this in the personal mind. I had been invited to Stanford in 2017 to speak at their business school, a very academic scientific talk on how to apply evolutionary theory blah, blah, blah. So my host, who's a fellow, he's a consumer psychologist, [1:17:06] invited me out to dinner the night before. And I think after I was going there, I think I was flying down to the time you were in Southern California still. 2017 you were in Southern, yeah. And I was gonna do your show, I think. So during dinner, he said, also I hear you go off and on Joe Rogan's show. I said, oh yeah, yeah. He goes, yeah, well, we don't condone that at Stanford, very kind of hot. I said, you don't condone what? He goes, well, we don't do our research so that it could be sexy enough for it to appear so I could talk about it on Joe Rogan. I said, well, I don't do the research. Also that I can appear on Joe Rogan, but if I can publish a paper in an academic journal and then go on Joe Rogan and hopefully excite people about evolutionary psychology and psychology of decision making, isn't that better than just having my wife and mother read the paper? And he didn't like that. [1:18:00] He thought, whereas now, I, not that many, but I'll get a lot more professors who will write to me saying, can you get me on Joe Rogan? Well, that's good. But that speaks to how patterns change, right? Yeah, well, it's just, you know, it's so easy to label somebody. It's so easy to label a platform or, you know, like podcasting in in general that it's frivolous, especially if you live in the academic world. But it's just an opportunity to talk about stuff. And if I'm talking to someone about evolutionary psychology or if I'm talking to someone about coal mining, I just want to know what's going on. Well, let me tell you something. I'm not trying to blow smoke up your ass or be ingratiating or anything, but I bet if there was a currency metric to measure how much you've affected the intellectual ecosystem versus your average well-published professor, [1:19:01] I would put my money on you, not because you were the creator of the knowledge, but because boy, are the biggest the seminator of knowledge, right? So like well, I'm just lucky right and a big part of the luck is that I have the fortune to talk to these people Because most people just don't have access to people like you Yeah, like if I want to sit down with a guy like you for three hours like if I didn't have a podcast That would be a tough sell Like hey, God, can you put your phone away and just you and me just stare at each other for three hours and have a conversation? But this is for whatever reason, I probably spend more time individually talking to people this way than any other way because I do so many of these things. Do you think before you started this that there were indicators that bore you such a good conversation with us, you know how to hold? Or it came as a surprise to you that it would be so successful. Oh, it's a hundred percent surprise. Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to do it because I thought it'd be fun. That was it. There's a chapter in the book Life as a playground. [1:20:03] Oh, yeah. Just live every... Science is play, right? What science, it's one big puzzle that you're trying to identify which variable, meaningfully relate to other variables. Yeah. So it's a form of puzzle making. So, you know, so actually there's research that shows that if you marry someone that scores similar to you on the adult playfulness scale, I don't remember the time, right? Some people score very high on that. Probably you do, I know that I do. If you then match up with someone who scores very highly, like you do, assortatively, that's a very big predictor of you having successful union. That makes sense. Yeah, you don't want to be with someone who hates jokes. Especially if you're a professional comic. And if you're funny and they're not funny, that's probably not as fun. Right. That's probably boring. But if you had to choose between the person that you're with is also very funny or at least laughs at your joke, [1:21:04] you could only have one or the two. So she's either a positive receptacle to your humor or she goes toe to toe with you and being as funny. Which one would you prefer? I take toe to toe with me as funny. Yeah, I don't need someone to think I'm funny. I got plenty of people. Well, the audience. I don't need a wife. My wife doesn't have to have the same taste as me, even in me. Like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if you like different. Like, they listen to music that I think is garbage. And I'm like, God, can I get a picture? Can I get a picture to share something? No, I don't want to be mean. We like a lot of they've introduced me to Taylor Swift But my daughter is a swifty But they play some Taylor Swift something like this was not bad But the point is it's like you don't have to like the same things as I like that's stupid that's stupid You know she likes football. I don't even know the rules. I don't know what's going on It's fun to watch. Do you seriously don't know football? I barely know what's happening. Wow. Yeah. I barely know what's happening. [1:22:05] I have friends that are like Aaron Rogers, my friend. Is that what the fuck's going on? I hear you're in the ball. You throw the ball. Yeah, and he's really good at that shit. He's a smart guy. He's a very interesting guy. Speaking of athletes, last time I came on the show, I did apparently a clip when viral from our conversation where I was kind of hailing the cosmic justice of why it was important for messy to win that world cup remember that? Yes, you did say that. So, speaking of life as a playground and have, you know, scoring high on openness and all the things that I think you do very well, and I'd like to think that I do too, about maybe a week or two after I appeared on your show last year, I get an email, you know, dear, whatever, Professor Sad, my name is, I guess I could say his name because I'm going, you're going to know, my name is your gay mass. I am the majority owner of Inter Miami. [1:23:02] I'm a fan, whatever. I know that you have a deep appreciation for Messi. Whenever you'd like to come to a game, you'll be my personal guest. Oh shit! Now, think about this. This geeky professor who could have lived his life just doing his little narrow stuff, right? You know, I'm good in my ecosystem. A few other professors care about my work or go out there grab life by The balls the balls and and live it fully and connect and so on right so I Call my wife over. I say I'm James Bond. I mean in what world so It what world is it possible for you know the Lebanese professor an evolutionary theory to get an email from the majority owner. So September 27th or 28th I'm on a flight down to Miami. They're playing in the US Open Cup. It turns out that Messi was injured, so he didn't play. [1:24:06] I'm supposed to meet him. I bring him copies of my book sign, even the Spanish version of the parasitic mind because he only reads Spanish. He ends up not being there because he's not playing and so on. I mean, he's standing right next to me. I didn't get to meet him really. I meet Zinedine Zidane, who was the greatest French player of all time, and World Cup winner, right there in the president's lodge, David Beckham, hang out with him, I'm not saying these to drop names. Oh look, I know these cool people. But I'm saying, if I didn't have that open spirit where I didn't view my world as only being restricted to the ecosystem of academia, if I didn't come on Joe Rogan that opened me up to a whole new audience, all of those people would have never heard of my work. If I only published peer-reviewed papers rather than publishing books, which by the way in academia, you published trade books that look down upon. How is that looked down upon? If you publish a book that can be read by 300,000 people, how is that not better than publishing an academic paper that's read by three people. But that one is pure. [1:25:05] It's academic. That other one is vulgar and popularizer. Yeah. It's grotesque. It's stupid. It is stupid. And unfortunately, stupid can also be really smart. Really smart people can be stupid. Well, George Orwells, I'm paraphrasing him, said it takes intellectuals to come up with really dumb ideas. Well, in this country, there's a lot of examples that you could point to that would indicate that that'd be correct. It's just, you could be really dumb and also be smart as shit in your discipline. And again, it just boils down a lot of it is male ego. That's a big part of the problem with a lot of these ideas that people hold so sacred. The fascinating one for me with you is this reluctance to accept that there's other factors for the development of a human personality. And that it's not a blank slate. Like that seems interesting. And if I was a teacher that was teaching something contrary to that, I would want to know [1:26:04] this. And now I know that I've been teaching nonsense. Now I have to call like 50,000 students over the last 20 years. Hey guys, remember that I told you? Yeah, it turns out I thought it was true. What would you do? That's got to be horrible for them. When new information comes out that's irrefutable, some new scanning, new thing that shows that this thing that we had always held to be true, that you've taught in classes that you've won awards for is nonsense. Yeah, so there's a great, so my favorite quote, and maybe Jamie could pull it out by JBS Haldane. JBS Haldane was an evolutionary geneticist, but it was also known for having these beautiful, quotable quips. And so here, the quote in question, I have it in the last chapter of the consuming instinct, 2011 book. He's talking about the four stages that academics go through before they accept a theory. So I'm paraphrasing now what his stages are. [1:27:06] Stage one, oh this is complete rubbish bullshit. Stage two, well this may be true, but largely unimportant. Stage three, well this is definitely true, but it's probably not actionable. Stage four, oh I always said so, right? So what happens is you go through these phases and if you're dogged enough as I was, then the people who laughed at you and stayed, oh, there you go. There's worthless nonsense. There's worthless nonsense. This is worthless nonsense. This is an interesting but perverse point of view. This is true but quite unimportant. I always set so perfect. And I always, I've always said that. That's the government's position on COVID vaccine. That's right. Exactly. By the way, but here's the funny personal anecdote. I am a pathological email hoarder, meaning that I never get rid of emails because I always think, what if I ever need whatever's contained in that email? [1:28:01] Right. So I have emails from people who let's say had taken a very negative position in stage one, your evolutionary psychology stuff is bullshit. I have that email. It's 2001 and I have the email from 2019 when you say dear God, we would be honored if you would be the plenary speaker. I'm like, oh, but what happened to I was a bullshitter in 2001? Oh, wow. So you just have to be dogged. You have to collect the evidence and hopefully here's my position as an outsider. How could you know? Like, why would you say it's a blank slate? Well, how could you know? And why would you ignore all this interesting Information that we now know about the role that your parents play because the blank slate is very hopeful Right because the blank I think it was I came up with those Watson the behaviors who said that you know Give me 12 children. I could turn any one of them into a doctor into a beggar into a lawyer meaning that everybody is [1:29:05] into a doctor, into a beggar, into a lawyer, meaning that everybody is infinitely malleable. Now, that's a hopeful message if I'm a parent, right? If I create a child, you mean you're telling me that he's got equal chance to be Michael Jordan or Leonardo Messi. If only I have the right schedule of reinforcement of how to hug him and went to hug him, that's hopeful. I don't want to be told that there is something innate about my child that guarantees that he will never be the next Michael Jordan. So I think the message, the blank state message, doesn't originally start as just the quacky idea. It's a noble idea, perfectly rooted in bullshit, but it's a noble idea. Here's another example of a noble idea. Franz Boas was a actually Jewish anthropologist at Columbia University about a hundred years ago who was the one who developed cultural relativism, the idea that there are no human universals. So biology doesn't matter in explaining cultural phenomena because every culture is uniquely [1:30:01] distinct. Now the reason why he proposed that idea is because many nasty folks had misused biology and evolutionary theory. And therefore by him eradicating biology from the study of anthropology, he was hopefully doing a noble thing. But you can't kill truth in the service of a goal, right? And so, but that's what, so a lot of these guys, it's not to our earlier conversation, they are not conspiratorial and spreading bullshit. They believe that by holding those positions, they're creating the proper utopia. But it's rooted in bullshit. The reluctance to change one's opinion is always a very unfortunate thing to witness. a very unfortunate thing to witness. I hear you. What's the, can you think of one or two things that you remember most where you've done 180 on that you'd like to share? I don't know if I've done real 180s. Or a sizable shift. You know, I used dumb ones. Big foot's a real dumb one. [1:31:01] I still even big foot. But you were eight or last Saturday? Oh, like pretty recently. Within the last two decades. What made you... Talking to bigfoot people. And thinking and seeing that they're happy. Yeah, there's something wrong with them. Unfortunately, I used to have a joke about it. Here's one thing you don't find when you're looking for bigfoot, black people. You're more likely to find bigfoot than you are black people looking for bigfoot. It's all a bunch of unfuckable white dudes, unfuckable white dudes out camping. And there's a mystery, there's a thing that they wanna believe and there's almost no evidence. Almost no evidence. There's some weird stuff like footprints with dermal ridges, but you can fake that. It could be bullshit. Does that apply to the other class lockness monster also you don't believe? Well, the lockness monster is most likely nonsense, or maybe it could be a big fish or something like that. But the actual photo of the lockness monster is a hoax that's been proven to be a hoax. They know the guy took it. They know [1:32:01] how he did it. He used a cardboard cut out or something like that or some cutout and put it in the water and then took a photo. It was bullshit. It's probably, it could be a sturgeon, it could be some large fish. I think there's a lot of theories on it, but they've done scans of the lock. They've never found anything. It's certainly not a population of them. Right. They can stay alive for this long. They have to be breeding. Like how many of them? What are they eating? How big is this? What are you talking about? The big foot thing I think was real. And I think it was real in the human imagination and it was real in terms of like modern human beings encountered these things. And it's a real animal called Gigantopithecus. And it really did exist in Asia and if human beings were coming across the bearing land bridge. It's very likely that they were there too. They all existed in the same environment and in the same time period. And this fucking thing is in like Native American history. They have a large number of names for this. [1:33:01] They don't have dragons. They don't have crazy shit that doesn't exist. They have a myth of this gigantic hairy ape that lives in the woods and I think it did. I think it did probably until, you know, who knows how many thousands and thousands of years ago. But the idea of one being around today, almost no evidence, almost nothing just visual bullshit blurry bullshit Footprints that maybe I don't know you could fake that you could fake a footprint. It's not a fucking fake Ferrari You know, it's not like complicated to fake a footprint You know all you don't understand about the amount of weight It says who says who says you says you a guy wants to believe in bigfoot so bad Right, they want to believe so bad. It is a religion It's a religion. So what do you think is the psychological mechanism that causes them to want to but it's because there is kind of a mystery and all things that are out there that we can't explain [1:34:02] Here's the thing if bigfoot was real wouldn't be nearly as interesting as a killer will. Not nearly as interesting. If Bigfoot is just as big, stupid, monkey that lives in the woods and just shits all over himself and the fucking eats campers, that wouldn't be nearly as interesting. It's this super intelligent creature that lives in the water that saves people. It saves people. You know, before we were outside, I was talking to some of your crew and I was telling them that someone had asked me, oh, do you, actually it was the border agent as I was coming through to Austin. He asked, why am I coming? I said, oh, I'm coming to the show. He says, oh, do you get like a list of things that you talk about? I said, oh, it's exactly not, it's exactly the opposite of that. And so to that point, I wouldn't have ever, I didn't have in my bingo card, the defecation of Bigfoot and Forest. Yeah, like what is he doing up there? You stinky bitch. Like come on, the idea that no one has taken real good footage in this day and age with the amount of hikers and campers and people that are in the woods [1:35:01] and people that are into photography and nature photography and trail cameras. Trail cameras are everywhere. They're over water holes. They're everywhere. So what's the mechanism by which I mean, you know, you listed the name of the animal that you've taken. I can't do a bit of it. Exactly. Yeah. So you obviously have a lot of these tidbit information. Are you a voracious reader or how do you get your source of information? Well, I've read an embarrassing amount of books on Bigfoot. No, but in general. But in general, a lot of audiobooks. You do a lot of audio. The best way for me to, like I can do that while I'm working out, I can do that while I'm in the sauna, I can do that when I'm in the car. So that to me is like that's a couple of hours of taking in information. Beautiful. Where I would just ordinarily just like lifting weights. But you don't you don't love the feeling of grabbing above. I do. But I'm also so busy that to me it's like the best way to consume ideas. It's I feel like reading a book is 100% listening to an audiobook is 80 to 90%. Oh, okay. I don't think it's the same thing. [1:36:06] I have to. It's too easy to gloss over. I've never an audiobook book. I've only read. I haven't even read an electronic book. Really? I love paper. I love paper. I'm a pathological book hoarder. Do you write on paper or do you type it out? I type it out So now I type sometimes I'll take little notes I'm sitting at the cafe. I have an idea for something I want to do so I'll write it and then I'll but if I'm writing a book It's always on the computer. There's no written anymore And I've noticed that my penmanship has really gotten worse. I don't know if I'm not actually yeah exactly me, too It's terrible. But I'm a voracious reader and one of the things that stresses me the most is in my personal library, in my study, I've got literally hundreds and hundreds of books and I will often walk in there and say, will I ever have time to read? [1:37:01] So I have probably 600 books that I have yet to read. And each of those books has so much information that if I were to read. So I have probably 600 books that I have yet to read. And each of those books has so much information that if I were to read all those books, boy, I would be an even more exciting guest on the Joe Rogan show. No, what I mean by that is that there's so much, the more you know, the more you realize, truly, how little you know. Yeah, absolutely. And so I say, oh my God, here's a biography on, so I just bought a biography on the taxonomist who created the system of how to label animal species. He's a Swedish taxonomist. Now, that sounds very esoteric and specific, but I'm sure there is this incredible information that I can glean in that book, which today I don't have that knowledge in my brain. So to all people who are listening, read. There is nothing more. Number one predictor of your child's success is how many books were in the home of the parents. I don't know if it's number one, but certainly a highly predictive one. [1:38:00] So reading Elon Musk, you probably know this when he came to, I think from South Africa to Canada, he came with a luggage of books. He's a voracious reader, right? Now, that doesn't mean that he became who he became only because he read, but it's very hard to have an interesting person who's not very knowledgeable about many things. And that's why one of the things that's been very difficult with my children is I see them doing the scrolling and it drives me crazy because I haven't been able to instill that reflex of just saying, there is nothing I'd rather do right now than go sit somewhere and immerse myself in a book. They don't have that reflex. Yeah, that is a problem with electronics because it does hijack your reward system. It hijacks your attention span, hijacks your brain. And it's hard because kids are growing up in this environment. It's a different environment. And I have two ways of looking at it. I have one way of looking at it where you have to kind of set an example. And I'm not the best at that. [1:39:01] I like to look at my phone like just to put your phone away and put work away. Don't be responding to emails just just put it away and focus. I think we all should do that but we are all also living in this new world and that is not going to change and I think that's the same as when people are like don't get in the car let's walk okay, that's good for a little while, but now guess what, Martha, everyone has cars. Let's get a fucking car. I'm not walking to New York. What are you talking about? I'm not getting in this stupid wagon, getting pulled by a horse. This is dumb. They have cars now. I think we're gonna get to a point where avoiding avoiding some interaction with other human beings, it's gonna be constant, and it's gonna be more invasive than it is now. These are steps that our species is taking in its integration with technology that seem to be unstoppable. [1:40:00] And to isolate yourself and move to the woods in a cabin, that's one way to do it. But no, but the hygiene or the discipline of saying, I'm now focused. I'm not, I mean, I know the research findings on this. And yet I always find myself going into my phone and then stopping myself. So in writing, you always stop yourself? I mean, I don't. I stop myself three out of ten times. Especially if I could come up with some reason, oh, I'm gonna go over my notes. Yeah, yeah. But so what is the pull in your case? Is it scrolling through the Twitter? Just nonsense. Looking at nonsense on Instagram. And a lot of it is horrible. Because I have this fucking thing that I'm doing with Tom Segura, We send each other the worst things we find every day. Like an animal and an animal attacks. This one dude fucking stole a cop car was in a high-speed chase in Mexico with no tires. It just flames coming out of the bottom of his [1:41:01] car. Wild shit. A lot of people fallin' off buildings. Why? We just, it's been doin' this to each other for just like out of a mor- How many months has it been now? It's been like, it's like a morbid? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just freaking each other out every day. So now the algorithm knows that I'm fucked up. So the algorithm is only showing me like motorcycle accidents and just the wildest shit that you shouldn't be looking at. But I get so many of those videos that show up on my feed where it tells you, are you sure you want to look at this? Oh, boy. You know where it's blurry and you have to click and you have to look at it. I don't think I'd maybe twice that. Really? Yeah, so but here's the thing. So I'm interested in the AI algorithm that generates those because oftentimes it'll put things in my feed that I truly think I don't know how it could have found out that I'd like this stuff because I there is no signature Electronically of me having searched something. I say what a three-piece wool suits, right? Okay. I love I love that look And so now I'll see a thousand guys wearing these gorgeous Italian [1:42:04] Right, but other times it presents stuff to me that makes no sense that it almost seems as though i'm into gay son i guys uh... that i mean i'm being serious like it's it's so it's kind of uh... fitness which of course i'm into having lost a lot of weight but it almost seems homo erotic where it's always these guys that are and and so as i'm going to this my wife will say what what what are you looking at as it well i'm not sure i want to show you that it's like literally seventeen super muscular guys but there is no there's nothing that i've done that's such a test that it should recognize that in me how do you explain that doctor joe well they took a chance and they missed. The day is not complete. You know, you're interested in some things. But that's interesting, like any perception of men with a six pack, like looking good and oiled up, that's homoerotic, which is interesting. Because a woman with a beautiful body is not considered homoerotic at all. [1:43:01] And then odd. It is odd. But it's like, oh, don't even want to look at each fuck good looking girl. No, I swear to you, gay. But just don't hit that. I'm someone who actually is very easy in complimenting other men. So that's not, that wasn't, no, but it is, it's considered homoerotic. That's the problem. Well, there's a lot of girls to do that too though. Yeah There's a lot of girls that take these sexy Lifting weights poses, but you don't think of them some or a lot of no, but they're appealing to the male gaze in that case And he we assume that the female so the male men are posing they're appealing to men because men are Tilted by visual stimuli not women right so very few women I think women say that ugly dudes We weren't even visual don't worry about but they're not as visual And we can be really visual of course when a girl sees like Tatum O'Neal will be sure off. Yeah Yeah, no, of course that's that's real too,. But, but how many strip bars are out there targeting female patrons? [1:44:09] Oh, yeah, there's a big discrepancy. There you go. Yeah, oh, there's no, it's not equivalent. I'm not saying that. Yeah, out, but it's just funny that one is homoerotic. Right. You know, it's just, but then there's also ones where it's like, okay, who are you appealing to? Because it's a girl really want to see you sit like this. This is weird. This is a weird pose for a regular dude. But by the way, the inability to recognize some of these dynamics is what causes some men to send dick pics to women, right? Because they think that the same visual stimuli that would titillate them is exactly what would titillate women. Right. So it's like a theory of mind. And so a lot of men will say, oh, you know, I've got a good morphology here. I think she'd be impressed by that. And she gets repulsed by it. Because he doesn't have intersex theory of mind. [1:45:02] Right. Interesting. Evolution. Interesting. Evolutionary psychology, it's where it's at. Well, how much is it affected by technology? What is it? How much of... When you think of evolutionary psychology, you think of us as an evolving species that's integrating with its environment and its environment radically changes. So the most obvious answer to that would be internet pornographic addiction, which almost exclusively afflicts men, right, for very obvious reasons. Because what's happening with the internet delivery system is it's exactly catering to men's evolved pension for sexual variety, right? I can keep flipping through different porn clips without ever repeating the same one, whether it doesn't take much for that stimulus to then hijack my brain. So when I, for example, explain to people about the evolutionary roots of pornography, that doesn't mean that men have [1:46:05] evolved a gene for pornography, right doesn't mean that men have evolved a gene for pornography, right? Because obviously there was no pornography in the ancestral environment. But what it means is that those mechanisms that evolved for mating are then hijacked aserved by pornography. So I think the most obvious one would be internet pornography. I think the next stage of that is even more terrifying. I think there's going to be some sort of virtual element. Meaning? Meaning virtual sex. You're going to be able to actually have like a sexual experience virtually. But haptocleep. Yeah. I think they're going to do it with some sort of an interface. Okay. You know, like when you're seeing these first patients of Neuralink, like this one guy who can now amazingly operate a computer, play games, move his cursor, click on things, I mean, it's incredible. And they think he's gonna be able to communicate through this thing, like at the speed of a carnival barker. [1:47:01] That's how he's gonna be able to use this. Wow, it's crazy. Yeah, so I actually, I was giving a talk on global Jew hatred and Montreal at this event and a guy came up to me to introduce himself and he's a neurosurgeon and he said that he was part of the team that was choosing the first newer link patient that you just mentioned. That's incredible. It's incredible. So this is patient number one, right? And it's been successful. Yeah. And they believe that ultimately they'll be able to restore blindness, they'll be able to restore movement to people. There's going to be a lot of like wild things that this technology, if it can continue to progress, is going to be capable of doing. And at one point in time, I've got to imagine it's got to be able to create an artificial reality simulator that you just, you just immerse yourself in. Whether it takes 10 years to do that or 50 or 100 in the future, they're going to have [1:48:00] something that forget about porn. Like forget about like actually going on an adventurous life. Why would you do that when you can have all of the trappings of being a wizard in a fucking dungeon game? You could just play. Right. You just live your life in this world that doesn't exist. Get sexual pleasure, get satisfaction, eat food, and all you do when you awake is you eat food, go to sleep, wake up and do it again. Oh boy, that's a dire world here. It's the matrix. It's the matrix. It really is the matrix, and I feel like there's no way to stop it. I feel like if things keep going in the way they're going, what do we have regulations to keep a simulated universe from appearing? We don't have any regulations. If somebody wanted to create, if they were so smart that they created a simulated universe that you could participate in, and they could say, God, you could be whoever you want. You could be, you could, you wanna go to, you wanna go to ancient Egypt and 2000 BC [1:49:02] and see what was cracking, what was going on down there? What did that look like when the height of the pyramids, what the fuck did that look like? You wouldn't do that? Of course you would do that. Everybody would do that. And if it was harmless, you couldn't get hurt, you couldn't get injured, you're in god mode everywhere you go. If you die, you just wake up and do it all over again and you keep doing it. I mean, not to rain on that Matrix parade, but books in a sense do exactly that, right? No, they don't. You want it to be more, you shut your mouth. We're talking about transporting you to the fucking dinosaur times, Gat. We're talking about you running around watching raptors tear apart a brontosaurus. This is indistinguishable from reality. Indistinguishable. It looks like it's happening right in front of you. That's all everyone's gonna be doing. Oh boy. Those books are gonna rot. Those books are gonna be covered in dust. You're gonna do it one time and it'll get to the point. [1:50:01] See, it's sort of like VR. If you do VR now, it's really cool. It's kind of fun. It's like, wow, this game's nuts. I've tried the boxing one. Yeah, they're cool. It's a good workout. The boxing is a really good workout because you know, you really do. It's really is like hard shadow boxing. Yeah. You know, because you have to move a lot and like Wow, it's kind of crazy. But that's very crude in comparison to what's coming. That is like pong. Remember pong? You're older than me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. That game was amazing. I read it. What's it called? Atari. Atari, Atari. Remember when that happened? We were like, this is nuts. We are playing a video. We're aware of that age. Like we went through the whole thing. We went through VCRs. We went through answering machines. So my knowledge of video games stopped and peaked 1981 with Gallagher. Do you know Gallagher? Oh yeah. So I was I was I was like a champion in Gallagher, but that's the end of my knowledge. So that right now I see my son interact with things and he tries to bring me in and I just feel like I don't have the bandwidth to do anything that he's doing. [1:51:09] It will eat your life. It will eat your life. It's too fun. They're too good. These games are so good now. They're so immersive. So you're a gamer? No. I don't do them because they're too good. Oh right. No, I'm scared. I'm scared. They're just, they're too fun. They're too fun. And I have too many friends that will play video games till like two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning. And they're our age. Yeah. Wow. How do they navigate through family life and all that? A lot of them don't. OK. But you know some of them are younger the younger guys are they're all playing what is Shane play? Will they play called duty? Shane's big in the mat and he likes the UFC game. He also plays some like command and conquer style because he's big in the military history. Oh right right right. So they're playing these fucking insanely immersive. And these games are so good. [1:52:05] They're so good now. The graphics are so incredible. They're so fun, they're so exciting. They just have a geared up to like constant excitement. So the only one that interested me and the ones that my son showed me, I really know very little about this, is the sniper games. Oh, you like to be a little sneaky. Exactly. No, there's something very, very, very beautiful about sort of studying yourself and then getting that scope. And so I respect the guys who do that in real life. And so I try to do it, but there was too much hand-eye coordination of different things. So I didn't do too well. But that controller becomes you. Yeah, right. It becomes you. So Richard Dawkins talks about that being an extended phenotype. Mm, right. Those guys that are really good at that, that's the ones that the military wants. They want those guys to operate drones. Oh, right. That's what I would want. Until AI does it, AI is going to do a way better job. [1:53:01] Right. So you see the thing that we had Mike Baker on who was explaining to us yesterday that they have dog fights they're doing now where AI controlled jets are competing against jets flown by the best pilots and the AI jets are winning 100% of the time. Wow. Incredible. So that's fucking terrifying. Speaking of AI, I was in the early wave of studying AI. My undergrad is in mathematics computer science. As part of my computer science degree, I had taken some AI stuff, of course, with Monty Newborn, or Newt, I can't exactly. He was the part of the team of Deep Blue, which do you know Deep Blue? So that's, that was the AI system that was being built to play against the Grand Chess Masters. And at the time, sometimes this one would win, sometimes this one would win, oftentimes it would be ties. [1:54:01] And so we had learned how to program the search algorithms that would allow you to go through a decision tree of chess without having to exhaustively go through the entire tree because the entire tree is something like 10 to the hundred different nodes. It would take more than the entire history of the universe to go through it. So you have to know how to prune the tree. Do you follow what I mean? So that way, I better not waste time going down here. So just cut it off. That reduces the search space. And so I had been exposed to some of the earliest advances in my formal education in AI. But frankly, 40 years later, notwithstanding all of the advances, I would have thought they would have been even more AI applications than what we currently have. In other words, I thought it would be, you know, we've underperformed what I thought we would have reached. So for example, in medical diagnostics, why aren't there more AI systems that are being used instead of actual, you know, human doctors? Don't you think? [1:55:01] Because medical diagnostics is just the collation of tons of information so that you're able to, it's a structured problem, right? It has very, here are all the symptoms I can search through the whole database and come up with what is the likely disease much more quickly and probably more accurately than any human physician. And yet to the best of my knowledge, I don't think they're used as much as you would have thought they should be. I don't think they are, but I think people have been diagnosed with things from artificial intelligence now. And what they didn't someone put a bunch of their data in the chat GPT. And for sure a story went around about like a mom that couldn't go to good answer. Yeah. And put them in there and got like a diagnosis. Yeah. But that's like a one anecdote, I think, that went around. Yeah, I don't know if it's true. But you would imagine that at a certain point in time, you would get all of the data on all medical interventions, all medications that are good effective for this, [1:56:03] that or the other thing, all issues that could lead to a genetic propensity towards for this that or the other thing all issues that could lead to a Genetic propensity towards this that or the other thing and you would have it all in some sort of a database Right if you could have a computer that's far smarter than a human being process that and Instantaneously know instead of having some guy it has to go back to like what he learned when he was in grad school you're You're way better off. So I think in some areas, and I could be mispeaking, so I'll take this with a bit of a grain of salt. But I think in radiology is one of the areas where now AI systems are almost going to render the human radiologists obsolete, because it's pattern recognition. I'm looking at an image. And then I have to read that image to decide whether is does it look like this this area is a bit gray so it looks like there could be a tumor. Well, it turns out I think that the AI systems are better able to detect most of these things than humans. So, so I actually spoke to a radiologist cousin of mine and [1:57:03] he he he didn't think that they would become obsolete any time. So him meaning that humans, the human radiologists would still have something to input. But it seems to me that in fields and medicine, where it's largely driven by pattern recognition, is where AI is going to make the most headways, I think. That's interesting. I'm really fascinated to see what the end of this looks like. Because I think it's going to come real quick. I think the use of AI is now something we're just waking up to in terms of the general population is super aware of AI now. For the first time, we also got science fiction thing just 20 years ago. The possibility of it was science fiction 20 years ago, but the probability of it right now is like a fucking freight train that's headed over a cliff. It's like no one's hitting the brakes on this at all, [1:58:01] and what does this look like? So have you had guests that are both you really need to be definitely afraid of AI versus those who say it's completely overblown? Sure, yeah, definitely. And what is the evidence leaning to which camp? I don't know much for that. Well, the evidence is really in who the fuck knows. Okay. That's the, what is actually gonna happen is who the fuck knows, because I think it's to be more bizarre than we could ever imagine. I think what we're giving birth to collectively as a society is going to be more bizarre than anything we could ever imagine. Because it's going to be smarter than us by a lot. And it's going to be able to make smarter versions of it. It's going to be able to harness energy in a way that we couldn't ever possibly fathom. We couldn't think it up. It's going to have sentience. It's going to have the ability to make decisions. It's a life form. We're giving birth to it. We're giving birth to some godlike life form that has an unstoppable potential for technological [1:59:02] superiority over the human race. Yikes. Yeah, but it's going to be so superior. And if we're programming into it, certain behavior characteristics or certain imperatives, it doesn't have morals, it doesn't have... The whole idea behind it is nuts. So of all the courses that I've ever taken in my life would you know I spent many years in university the course that blew me the most you blew my mind was a course called formal languages which was about well formal languages is touring machines and so I don't know if a geno tour yeah so yeah the touring test of. So Alan Turing, if you delve into his actual material, your blown away that a human mind can think at that level. And I'm saying this as someone who spent my entire career in academia. [2:00:00] So I've met a lot of really, really brilliant people, but it's almost metaphysical, the kind of depth that has intellect went to. So the only other guy that I could think of of contemporary guys would be Gertel. I don't know if you know. So if you're... Yeah, Gertel's the guy who came up with a functional diagram of how you could make a time machine. Oh, did he I hurt girdle? I could girdle my meditation. Yeah, the mathematician. Yeah, so he was I don't know if you know the story I actually I talked about in this book and the happiness book At one point I'm talking about the importance of going for walks and just go for walk and talk and so on and I said well Einstein so both Einstein and Gurdle were together at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton. And later in his career, Einstein was older than Gurdle. Later in his career, Einstein said that the only reason that he would go into the office was because he was excited to go on these long walks with Gurdle and [2:01:03] just have these chats. So imagine being a fly on the wall sitting as Gurdle and Einstein are having these conversations. So I just finished reading Gurdle's biography and it was very interesting because here's this unbelievable mind. You know what he died of? What? Because it's going to speak to the opposite side of the mind. He was convinced that there were people trying to poison him. So he would use his wife as the food tester. Oh, Jesus. And she was committed to hospital with some disease, whatever, so she could no longer serve as his food tester. So he died of starvation. Oh my God. So now imagine girdle is both the guy who could think in ways that are unimaginable to us and is also the guy whose mind was parasitized by these conspiratorial ideas. [2:02:00] Wow, he was 65 pounds when he died of malnutrition. Isn't that phenomenal? Wow caused by a personality disturbance Wow It's unbelievable isn't assassination of his close friend he developed an obsessive fear of being poisoned oh I bought the book on I just bought a book on the murder of Professor Schlich who was the guy who started the Vienna Circle and Why are they poison him? No, they shot him. They shot him. Yeah, so he was worried about being poisoned because his friend got shot That so I don't know where the genesis of his paranoia came from but my point is is that in that same mind were these two sides, this un, so he developed what's called the incompleteness theorem. So there are some things within any axiomatic system and mathematics that you could never be able to prove within [2:03:00] that system. I mean, it's really at the level, it's like godly. It's just unbelievable, especially if you're, I was in mathematics, to be able to think at that level is unimaginable how deep it is, and yet you think people are going to poison you and you're willing to starve to death. That's the mystery of the human mind. Jamie, see if you can find what his theory on time travel was. I think it has to be like the size of a solar system. He was talking about the way the solar system worked in relativity, which was Einstein's theory. Would that allow time travel here? It goes up rotating universe. Yeah. How rotating universe makes time travel here goes up rotating universe. Yeah. How rotating universe makes time travel possible. So he had this idea, but I'm gonna butcher it unless I can actually read it. Yeah, I mean, some of this stuff is so difficult to grasp. Right, right. It is. [2:04:02] Okay, here it is. is. Okay, here it is. Gertel found that if you follow a particular path in this rotating universe, you can end up in your own past. You'd have to travel incredibly far, billions of light years long to do it, but it can be done. As you travel, you would get caught up in the rotation of the universe. That isn't just a rotation of the stuff in the cosmos, but of both space and time themselves. In essence, the rotation of the stuff in the cosmos, but of both space and time themselves. In essence, the rotation of the universe would so strongly alter your potential past forward that those past loop back around to where you started. I have no idea what that means. Holy shit. I mean, Richard Feynman, you know who that is, Richard Feynman, the Nobel Prize winner in physics. He was a pioneer in quantum mechanics. He said, if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics. It's the same thing for me with this kind of stuff. I read it and it is impossible for my stupid brain. I don't think it's stupid brain. It's [2:05:00] so esoteric. It is very, very esoteric. But listen to this, if you would set off on your journey and never travel faster than the speed of light, and you would find yourself back where you started by in your own past. What? The possibility of backwards time travel creates paradoxes and violates our understanding of causality. Thankfully, all observations indicate that the universe is not rotating, so we are protected from Gurdail's problem of backward time travel, but it remains to this day a mystery while general relativity is okay with this seemingly impossible phenomenon. Gurdail used the example of the rotating universe to argue that general relativity is incomplete and he may yet be right. I don't know what to add to that. If you give people the opportunity to go back in time, oh my God, that'll be ridiculous. So if I, well, but speaking of this. [2:06:02] You never know. I've actually played this game, a version of this game where I ask people if you can invite 10 historical people to your dinner party who would they be so maybe I can ask you that you don't have to list 10 Can you can you off top your head? Can you list a few that would have to be at the Joe Rogan barbecue? I could tell you who's my number one who? Leonardo da Vinci I just I just finished a biography on him. Do you speak Italian? I don't I speak fake Italian. I just add who knows what their Italian was. Yeah, right. They all had dialects like my grandparents spoken dialects. By the way, we're Italian. Is that right? Yeah. I could link my love for Leonardo da Vinci with the earlier concept of conciliance that we talked about. Maybe you can see how because the in order of the Vinci by definition is the Renaissance man, right? He is the ultimate polymath. He's an anatomist, an painter, an engineer, and a futurist, and a sculptor, right? He's a man of all and does them all at very high proficiency, [2:07:03] and he's able to link all these things, right? So he studies the anatomy of the body in his art. So he's now linking anatomy with art. So that's what Consilience says. So to me, Leonardo Vinci is the ultimate intellectual man because he can do it all. He can link different things. So he would be on my list. Who would be arguably your top guy? Well, it's one night, right? One night. You got to bring Hunter Thompson. Who the hell's that? Hunter asked Thompson? Who's that? Really? Hunter asked Thompson? You never heard of Hunter asked Thompson? No. The journalist? Never heard of him? You never heard of fear and loathing in Las Vegas? You never heard of this guy? Maybe. That's crazy. I can't believe he never heard of Hunter S. Thompson. Hunter S. Thompson is an American writer and he what's his most famous thing? Fear and loathing in Las Vegas is the one they made into a Johnny Depp movie. It was a crazy. It really started off. The assignment was he was supposed to write about [2:08:07] i think it was motorcycle racing in in loss of a yes he gets this uh... this contract to write this article and he goes there instead it's this lsd entrenched you're picking this guy over socrates and play told you are a stoddl and da Vinci said brilliant things man. You get if you read his work, his work was brilliant. It was brilliant. He was out of his fucking mind. I mean, he was out of his fucking mind. Doing acid, shooting windows. He was crazy. There's a video of him having a shootout with his neighbors in Colorado. They're shooting at each other. It was crazy. Like legitimately, it killed them. That goes with your more bit Instagram things with your friend. No, it doesn't necessarily because I think if I could catch them when it was young, I'd better be a fascinating guy to talk to. I just think you can't drink that hard for that long. You just deteriorate and things go sideways mentally. It's just very, very bad for you. You're poisoning yourself every day with Coke and you're poisoning yourself every day with whiskey. And that's this guy. [2:09:09] There's a video of us reading Hunter S. Thompson's list of what this journalist saw him do in a day. This journalist came to Woody Creek, Colorado, where he lived. And us talking about it made its way into a song. Who, who, who, who's that band that did that? So it's like a, like a techno dance song. Wow. That's all about Hunter S. Thompson's like, what stuff he did. Like when, when were you reading that? Like, I was a few years back. It was me and Greg Fissimans were reading it really this is the craziest thing I would listen to the Beardy man featuring Joel. Yeah, can we play this? That's ridiculous. It's my own words. Oh In terms of copyright what what happens when you play it? What do you hear? Just I'll say it. Okay, so it's the problem is the music [2:10:06] Okay Just I'll say it. Okay, so it's the problem is the music I'll cut it out of the show is the problem. Okay See if you can find the actual clip of me and Greg talking about it. There's probably a clip of it But it was it's such a ridiculous He was of amount of substances. He's consuming it. It's fucking insane like he was insane So what makes him interesting is that he's insane and he consumes a lot of Alcohol and drugs no He's a brilliant guy like the things that he said were brilliant. Daily routine 3 p.m. rise Okay It's he woke up at 3 p.m. And he like starts his day with whiskey and cocaine Like he's fucking animal cocaine. He's fucking animal man. He's an animal. But it was also a brilliant writer, man. He had an amazing insight. And he's a guy that sort of was soured by the shift from the 1960s to the 1970s. And like what happened in this country? Now weird things. [2:11:01] So you could have had a check. I mean, he only died recently, right? He died quite a while ago. He committed suicide at least 10 years ago, right? Okay, but I mean, technically you could have met him. Could have. Yeah. What have been possible? But even then, it was like the end of his. Okay. He wasn't the same guy. He wasn't the same guy as he was. 50. Another glass of chevus. Another done hill. Here's his daily routine. 3 p.m. rise, 305. Shiva's regal with morning papers. Smokes Dunhills, 345. Cocaine, 350. Another glass of Shiva's, another Dunhill. 405. PM, by the way, first cup of coffee and a Dunhill. 415. Cocaine. 416. Orange juice and another Dunhill. 430. Cocaine, 454. 454 cocaine 505 cocaine 511 coffee Dunhills 530 get more ice in the shea Ves cocaine at 545 6 o'clock smoking grass to take the edge off the day 7 p.m. 3 hours into it [2:12:00] 3 hours in lit 7055, Woody Creek, Tavern for lunch. Heineken, two margaritas, coleslaw, a taco salad, double order of fried onion rings, carrot cake, ice cream, a bean fritter, done hills, another Heineken, cocaine. And for the rest of the ride home, a snow cone, a glass of shredded ice, which is poured over four jiggers of chivas. Okay, so the snow cone is chivas. Okay, 9 p.m. starts snorting cocaine seriously. 10 p.m. drops acid. 11 p.m. Shartruse, I don't know what that is. Cocaine and grass, 11.30. Cocaine, et cetera, et cetera. 12 midnight. Hunter S. Thompson is ready to write. Wow. Wow. That's when he sits down to write. 12 to 5 to 6 a.m. He writes, Chartreuse, cocaine, grass, chivas, coffee, Heineken, clothes cigarettes, grapefruit, Dunhills, orange juice, gin, continuous pornographic movies. 6 a.m. [2:13:00] In the hot tub with champagne, Dove bars fedachini Alfredo 8 a.m. Halcyon just sleeping pill not a 20 sleep So he would take a sleeping code a 20 in the morning and Riding it hard what I love it Wow Now if his writing sucks, that's crazy Right but his writing was, that's crazy. But his writing was amazing. What was he wrote? He was a fiction writer. Well, the first... No, he came up with a kind of journalism that was like journalism mixed with fiction. And he called it like Gonzo journalism. Or some of the things. Oh, that's him. That's him. That's him. The way he would write would be like, over the top ridiculous to the point where he thought everybody knew he was joking but it was mixed up in like also real stuff like fear and loathing on the campaign trail you know he was on the campaign trail and he spread of rumor about this guy who was a candidate for president being a drug addict on this uh... exotic [2:14:04] Brazilian drug i began and so people started believing it the guy started having a mental breakdown and he was on the dick cavity and he admitted to doing this well admitted to spreading the rumors that you believe made it all out and people really believe that must be was the evening i never said it was as said there was a rumor in Milwaukee That he was which was true when I started the rumor in Milwaukee Did you affect the campaign you affected? I'm sorry. He was a married. He wasn't married Was he married? Oh, yeah, okay, because all that cocaine and stuff might get into the well, you know all that cocaine and stuff might get into the well you know you gotta do what you gotta do in this world I don't know fair enough obviously it didn't work out yeah yeah but he was a fucking maniac he was a like complete maniac but especially in his younger days like Hell's Angels is an amazing book crazy that's a crazy book he was embedded with the Hell's Angels wow and wrote this book and they were [2:15:03] really mad at him afterwards and it's but it but it's a great. Oh, I know where I know him from. I think, I read Tucker Carlson's biography because the guy who wrote it came on my show. So I read, I read it in preparation. And I think Tucker Carlson refers to him that's where i learned the term gonzogiorno is in i think probably i think it doesn't tucker have like a hunter has to have some story while that's that's i'm thinking yet as when you said hell's angels i know that tucker had been invited to go give a talk with the hell's angels where he referenced some and i think it's this guy so now i'm linking that makes sense yeah that makes that makes I feel like I don't I don't know the story But I think Tucker has a hunter as Thompson's story like you knew him Oh, I feel like I've known Hunter as Thompson for most of my life the first encounter him in 1981 when I was 12 Tucker Carlson Wow Jamie would we say that out of my 10 [2:16:04] Appearances on this show, this has been the most number of times that you've come in with some truth? I'm gonna say yes. Damn. Drop in bombs. Drop in bombs. I haven't researched on number of pull ups I've done. Yeah, you're obsessed with numbers. I'm an academic, we quantify things. It makes sense. But in this world that can be problematic. I don't know if you know that math is racist. I do. By the way, seven or eight years ago, you could pull it up. Jamie can pull it up. I did a satirical clip where I introduced a new field that I was coining as social justice mathematics. And I went through all of these mathematical properties and said how we should get rid of irrational numbers should not exist because they marginalized mental illness, whatever. And I just went through the whole list. It became a big hit amongst the crowd of mathematicians, which is kind of a geeky crowd. But seven, eight years later, reality caught up with my prophetic satire. [2:17:02] Now it is literally the case that there is a field called sort of social justice mathematics where you talk about math being racist. So there's a lot of grifters in this world kids and there's a lot of people that believe things if left unchallenged and those things become doctrine they're a real problem because they're not based in logic. They're just based in nonsense. They're based in a cult-like thinking that is we are very susceptible to cult-like thinking. Yeah. I watched yesterday, on my way to Austin, a documentary three-part series on these, I think it's called Ivy Ridge School. Have you heard of it? Ivy Ridge School. It was in Ogdenburg or something in upstate New York. They had a whole bunch of those schools where they would take kids, many of whom were not delinquents, really, but they would convince their parents, because you mentioned cultshoek. This was kind of a cult situation. They would convince their parents that they need to send them to these boarding schools [2:18:02] in order to, you know, provide them with structure and discipline so that they can get their life together. Even though many of them had committed very, very minor, in fact, they were caught once with marijuana. These were not like dropping acid all day long. And the things that they would do to them in these schools is straight out of, you know, the worst Soviet Google Act you could think of. And they're throughout the United States. And it's a form of cult indoctrination where you're doing cult indoctrination at two levels to the captors, captives in the schools. But you also have to convince the parents that they're doing the right thing by sending their kids there. It's unbelievable. You should watch this documentary. It really it behooves you to imagine that in the 21st century in the United States these things can occur, but it really does. Oh, there you go. Exactly. There you go. That's crazy. It's unbelievable. You're not allowed to have eye contact with another student. You're not allowed to smile [2:19:06] You're not allowed to look at the window. You're not allowed to speak to anyone You just sit in front of a computer and you just do these Oh my god, and they were in there for like 28 months then they gave them Degrees diploma high school diplomas that were fraudulent. So imagine you're sent there. By the way, in some cases, they would come and kidnap you out of your parents' home because they knew that the kid would be resistant to leave. They said, no, no, it's completely legal. So like two goons would come, take your child, take them to upstate New York. The kid has no idea why I'm there. Oh my god Yeah, so it's really it's very powerful so and hence that's why Parasitic thinking right our ability to be parasitized is infinite. That is great. That's towards crazy Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely check it out. Oh my god [2:20:00] So how how old are your kids now speaking of kids are they are they are they passed the age where you have any Influence on them. They think you're no longer the hero you've become a zero because my my children are entering a bit that stage They're a team of state to be expected and they're correct. They find Flows in your game. Yeah, yeah, it's It's fascinating to watch little minds develop their view of the world. And if there's anything that I've ever done, like a real 180 on, is I developed this weird way of looking at people and maybe much more empathetic where I don't think of people as just you at age, whatever you are. You at age 49, you at age 30. I think of everybody as babies. I think of everybody as that you used to be a little baby. And a bunch of shit went terribly wrong. And now here we are together in this unfortunate situation. And where I used to just think, [2:21:01] like if I saw some guy, he was drunk, and he's 35 years old, some asshole. He's just an asshole. It's guys an asshole, he's rude to people. What happened to that guy? Yeah. How did he get to that spot? And I started thinking about people like little babies. Little babies that just got a bunch of bad things. There's some bad people and bad environments. But that's removing people's personal agency that you're it's a little it's definitely removing a little which is also bullshit Yeah, because you do have personal agency. You don't have it's you don't have a hundred percent so I see I see there's certain Landscapes that are you know Un traversable I actually faced what you faced with the 35 year old I face something similar on my daily walk with my wife to the coffee shop and back. There's a gentleman that stands outside this, you know, kind of, she, she, artisanal butchery butcher place in our neighborhood and he is soliciting money every day, all day, okay? He doesn't look as though he's mentally ill, he doesn't [2:22:02] look completely destitute, but he stands there every day. And so now I know I just say hello to him just to recognize him. And he could you could tell that it means a lot to him. Hi, how are you? How are you doing? And I've struggled with whether it would be appropriate for me or not to just strike up a conversation out of just a human interest in knowing what happened to you because he clearly doesn't seem like he's mentally ill. He doesn't seem as though he's a drug addict. I mean, he's not wearing a three-piece Italian suit, but you know, he's not disheveled, and yet he's there every day, and that's the best option he has. Do you think it would be viewed by him as insulting and offensive if I were to you know speak to him or on the contrary hey somebody's actually taking an interest in me how do you how do you view this it really depends upon the situation and you know how crazy you think he is or if you think he's crazy at all I don't think he's crazy well there's a lot of people [2:23:00] that have mental illnesses that wind up on the street that's a big part of the problem yeah mental illnesses and drug addicts they're the ones who wind up on the street. That's a big part of the problem. Mental illnesses and drug addicts. They're the ones who wind up in those situations. And he could be either of those. Yeah, you don't know. I mean, but I bet he's probably lonely. And I bet, you know, if you have a conversation with him, he'd probably appreciate it. Exactly. You know, if you could handle it, you could handle it, you know, the, you might get sucked into his world a little bit. He might want money from you. That's true. You might, you know, who knows why he's there. Can I tell you an incredible story about a homeless guy? Sure. It's actually in the last chapter of the Happiness Book. His name is Bijan Gilani. I met him and when I was a professor at UC Irvine, I was sitting at a cafe, a whole bunch of books thrown all over my table. I was working on a paper. He comes up to me, re-world-dressed, a bit of an accent, he's of Iranian descent. He says, oh my god, these are all interesting books. Do you mind if I sit down with you for a couple of minutes chat? You know, Shaital Al-Mahab professor at UC Irvine, he was doing his PhD studying the homeless community in Southern California. So he had, it was an anthropological study [2:24:06] where instead of going to a culture and living amongst them in the Amazon, the community that he's studying anthropologically is the homeless community. So he embedded himself and he actually finished this PhD at UC Irvine. He was a wealthy man. Fast forward several years later, he becomes destitute, living out of his car and himself homeless. Okay? At the reason why I mentioned, that's him. That's his car. This is incredible, Jamie. Okay. So, this gentleman was living in this car. Now, why am I mentioning this in the context of the book on happiness? So he was asked, Joe, are you a happy person? Right? Guess what he answers. He says, now this is a guy who has a PhD, reached pinnacle, very wealthy guy in Sancafonia is now living in his car. He says, well, I'm a moral person. I'm a good person. I have a library card to the Newport Beach library so I can [2:25:01] go and nourish my mind. I have a card to the gym so I could stay healthy. Yes, I'm happy. So I use that story to say, here is a guy who has every reason to feel down on himself. Yet he frames his situation in such a way that he can elevate himself despite all his tros and tribulations. One more quick story. David McCallum. I may have mentioned him previously, I'm not sure. Arguably the most incredible guy I've had on my show, and like you I've had many amazing people, spent 29 years in prison, and then he was exonerated for a murder that he didn't commit. He comes on my show, we're chatting. As we're chatting, maybe you could pull that one up too. David McCallum. And as we're chatting, maybe you could pull that one up too. David McCallum. And as we're chatting, I said, you know, David, you must be the reincarnation of Buddha, because it's amazing how you're not filled with any ranker, any sense of vindictiveness, any vengefulness. It's unbelievable. I mean, you're a much better man than I am, because [2:26:00] I would want to burn the world down if someone did this to me. He says, you know, God, I have a sister who suffers from cerebral palsy. She's been bedridden and yet she finds a way to smile. And so from that perspective, whatever I went through is not that bad. So a guy who just spent three decades in prison for a crime that he didn't commit was still able to reframe his tragedy into a positive. Wow. So these are, and by the way, these are the types of, people learn a lot more from these stories than they do if you had gone all academic on them, right? Right. And so that's why I love telling these stories because then people right away connected those stories. So no, it's, the way the healing brain works. Like if you're studying this for all these years, what is the most surprising thing to you that people do that seems obvious that they shouldn't do in terms of the way they think about things? Not alter their positions in light of incoming evidence. [2:27:06] So the big one, right? That's the big one. Because in a sense, it speaks to your decency as a human being epistemologically. If we are true honest people, we change. It's so, as you said, we make mistakes. We help positions because we had information's ABC, but now XYZ comes in and we change. And any good decent moral person with integrity has to be able to do that. But to your earlier point, most of us are vain, most of us have pride, most of us have vested interest in whatever positions we're in. We can't let go of those positions because it will affect my identity. And that's why, by the way, pride of the seven deadly sins you may or may not know this, is the Supra sin. It's the sin from which all other sins flow because pride is the orgyastic self-love. So in French, by the way, you distinguish between positive pride and negative pride. [2:28:04] In English, you don't have that distinction. So if you say, I'm proud of my work, that's different than saying, don't be prideful in your love, that would be a negative thing. In French, there is a distinction. Positive pride is fiechte. Negative pride is all gay. So that's another interesting thing is that in some languages, the terms exist to separate and other languages you don't have them. Wow. Dropping a lot of wisdom and knowledge. You are, but you are always filled with that. I think one of the more unique things about your background that makes you resistant to stupidity is the fact that you did have to flee with your family. And the fact that you were involved in a real war, real war zone, a real scary time, and to see the effects of ideology so clearly imposed themselves on your life when you were very young. [2:29:00] That's exactly right. That's why in the first chapter of our in mind, I tell that story because then that offers the reader a window into why I hate tribalism or I hate identity politics because Lebanon is the perfect experiment of identity politics. And so yeah, you're exactly right. Do you hold any, I mean, one of the things that's been amazing about all the different conversations that you and I have had, and this is like the tenth one that we've done, it, a lot of this wouldn't get to some of the people that understand what you're saying and reincorporate it into their understanding of their own behavior and tribal behavior in general, and that would just the way people behave. Just think about things, Way people accept ridiculous ideas. Like you've had a big impact on that. Well, you've had, you just gave me the forum. I just show up. You tell me where to show up. No, but you have all the information if I show up on myself. It's not worthwhile. You know, I gotta tell you, you can't imagine the extent of, [2:30:03] I mean, I guess you can imagine but I could be walking on it I mean, that's literally happened. I'm walking on a beach in the Bahamas a Native Baham, Baham, Bahamian who's doing some you know, artisanal thing runs up to me Recognizes me because I've been on the Joe Rogan show So it's just it's unbooked and I don't mean that in a old people are right I mean that that's your reach. So how many how many people do you get per show? It's a lot. I don't know. Many millions. It's a lot. Right. So I mean, so then again, the people who are looking down on podcasters, I mean, if you are in the business of spreading information, you should be lining up to appear on the show. Believe me I never take it for granted I feel so privileged that first thought I'm your friend but that I have this opportunity to come and reach so many people. How many people have written to me said I became interested in psychology and consumer behavior and in politics because I heard you say something on Joe Rogan. It's unbelievable. Yeah it's pretty nuts. It's very weird. Joe Rogan from Boston, Massachusetts. [2:31:07] Yeah, sort of Newton. I lived in Boston, different parts of my life, but it's very bizarre that it's reached what it's doing. It's very strange. How do you handle fame? Try not to. Okay. Try not to engage. So do you, I mean, are are you are you shut off when you're in public because I suspect you not not shut off? No, just try to be me. Yeah Yeah, I mean it's the only way to do it. Otherwise you'll go crazy. Yeah, you go crazy You know if you don't interact with people I mean the people work they they do get weird people get weird with you Yeah, yeah, it's weird They see someone that they've watched on YouTube or they're watching their phone or they're watching you know Whatever I mean I've been fortunate. I don't know how it's been for you my ratio. I mean online I get tons of negativity But in person I've only had an knock on wood in all the years that i've been in the public one time [2:32:06] and negative encounters so it's ten million to one that's that's pretty amazing so your ratio hasn't been as positive or it's very it's always very positive i think in even in general most people are good people exactly say bad things and i think if you're around someone your reaction to them would be very different than writing things in text. I bet a lot of the people that wrote shitty things to you, if they met you, they'd say a nice thing to you. Right. It's a terrible way to communicate. And it feels just like a real thought. Sometimes you are. I mean, I don't know if it's, I mean, I know that sometimes I'm a lot more caustic when I reply to someone online than I would in person. Yeah, I really try not to be. I don't want, I don't like conflict. I don't think it's necessary. I think most of your conflict should be within yourself, within your own mind. Right. Whatever you're doing with your life and focusing your energy on, you have more bandwidth [2:33:02] for it. If you don't have these external conflicts that are totally unnecessary, I just think they're unnecessary. Well you seem to, I mean, I obviously follow you on Twitter or X. You don't, you don't post that. I mean, you don't engage anybody anymore, right? I almost never. It's just not fun. It's just, you're thrown into this weird world of opinions and people. And if it's about you, you shouldn't be that interested in you that you wanna read all these people's opinions about you. I'm interested in other people writing about stuff. Interested in different opinions about things, but I don't wanna engage, because it's the environment of engaging online is just too weird. And you're doing it every day for three hours already. There's too many different opinions coming out, too many different people coming out. That's not good for people. I don't think it's good to be interacting with that many people in any form. [2:34:00] I don't think it's good to be interacting with that new people in real life. I think it's just you probably never have a deep conversation. You're just constantly running into new people. Like, everywhere you go, just people constantly. You're going to want some time off, you know? And I think it's the same with like interactions online. And I think people don't think about it that way. They'll think about like every time someone's talking at you, you're getting input. Every time you're around, someone you're getting input. And if you're around people that are cool, it's a great experience. It's really fun. We had a great time, we were laughing. Oh my God, it was so much fun. But if you're around someone who's really annoying and shitty or mean or snide or just, ugh, now it's a bad time, right? So you know to avoid those people, but you don't have that opportunity online. It's a party and the whole world's there. And 80% of them might be Chinese bots. Who fucking knows? Who knows what's coming at you? And you're just gonna take those in and your brain's gonna process some like the real opinions [2:35:00] and real people that are to be respected. These are things to be considered. Maybe you are a piece of shit. Maybe you are self-hating. Maybe you are this. Of many of the wonderful advice that you've given on the show, I remember you once said to me, kind of surprised, what are you doing reading comments? Never ever ever read comments. And I remember that sometimes when I answer someone, they say, clearly you're not implementing Joe Rogan's advice. But I must say that over the years, I've greatly reduced my temptation to, so I, I can't say that I never read, but much, much less than before. You'll feel way better. Yeah. It's just not good for you. I think it's a bad way to process people's interactions. I don't think it's a real indicator of people. It's a weird way that people are willing to engage online. They would never do in real life. Otherwise, there would be a bloodbath in the streets everywhere. If you just kill each other left and right, it's not like that in the real [2:36:03] world. Because that's the real world type of Communications very different than online communication but online Communication gets processed in your head like it's real communication and I think it heightens anxiety with everybody Yeah, so in the happiness book I talk about Research that shows that the number one factor in terms of longevity more than your cholesterol scores when you're 50 Is the tightness of your social network, your friendship group. And so with that in mind, if I were to ask you to pick your, you know, if five biggest friends are they ones that you've, you know, held from when you were at Newton or are there a lot of new entrants into the inner circle of Joe Rogan over the years. Does it shift much of your friendship group or are you very much stable friends that I've been friends with since I was in high school? But I have a lot of really good friends that have been friends with comics that are real good friends of mine for decades. [2:37:00] So I've known a lot of these guys and a lot of the guys that are here now like Tony I've been friends with Tony Inchgliff for God at least 15 years something like that right when did Tony first start doing shows of Red Band. Something crazy like 11 12 years ago whatever it was. Joey Diaz has been friends with him for 25 years, 26 years, maybe more. There's a lot of these guys have known forever. I've known Ari for 20 plus years. We've been friends for so long. And Tom Segura same thing, I've known him for 20 years almost. So when those guys all wanted to move out here together and I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. Ari has moved here, but I'm gonna try to convince that motherfucker. He or meaning Austin? Yeah. Okay, from California. He likes New York. Oh, he likes to be congested. He likes to be beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. He likes, hmm, I like it. He likes all the energy of all those people packed on top of each other. Are most of your Southern California friends out of there? Yeah. [2:38:05] Yeah, there's a few guys left. Yeah, Bill Burr stayed. A few other guys stayed that are really good. By the way, I had one of your friends on my show, Brian Callan. Oh, Brian Callan was awesome. He's such a cool guy. He's smart motherfucker. He really is. And it also retarded at the same time. Oh, Kieru, Kieru, it's just silly. He's just silly. But he's just silly. Well, he wasn't with, on my show, he was like very serious. Yeah, no, he's very capable of that too. He's very well bred. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, he's a great guest too, great podcast guest. Well, I've always said that, have to, by definition, be intelligent because, by wait, that's a sexually selected trait, right? When women say, you know, I want a man who's funny, she's obviously saying, I want a man who's intelligent because it's very unlikely for you to be truly funny and be a complete dullard, right? [2:39:01] And so by you saying, I like funny guys, you are effectively saying by proxy, I like intelligent guys. So it doesn't surprise me that Brian Callan or all your other friends would be funny because I mean, look at Dave Chappelle. How are you going to pull off all those insights if you were just moron, right? So he's probably smarter than a lot of my colleagues. But he's he's very smart. Dave's very smart. But he's also, you also you know I mean he's like in the world of stand-up seven days a week. He's like a Master craftsman out there like swinging away at ideas Peas him up together on the road. He gets it. He's there's no one like him That guy flies into a town and just shows up at comedy clubs and goes on stage Like they don't even know he's gonna be there. Does it all the time? Is that right? Damn man, he did it with me. I was in Denver, it just showed up. You mean you were performing in Denver. And he just showed up. And he just showed up. And he just showed up. Now do you feel slated and that he might take over to see it or have a girlfriend? No, no, no, no, I wanted him to go on. Okay. This is what happened. I [2:40:11] Did this weekend at the comedy works in Denver and Dave flew in and Just decided to show up and I'm like what are you doing? He goes I just wanted to come say hi Oh, he just flew it. I go you want to go on stage? You go shoot. I go fuck yeah, hold on So I go out onto the stage and I yelled out the audience. Tell everybody to come back, Dave Chappelle's here. They were like, what? And so they all piled back in. He did like another 40 minutes and murdered. It was incredible. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. You know what that guy does that all the time, all over the place. He'll just show up in New York, start doing sets, show up in LA, start doing sets. Wow. He just shows up and works out as material. And he's just in it. He's just in it, man. Just fully involved in this art form. So you would say he's currently the top living comic? You know, it's, he's absolutely, you can't consider [2:41:01] the best without considering him. It's all subjective, you know? There's certain people that think this person's funny or certain people that think that. I think it's all stupid to say like a number one, number two, number three. I think there's just a level of greatness that some achieve that he is at right now. That's very rare. It's very Richard Pryor. It's very Sam Kinnison. It's very Sam Kinnison. It's very, there's just like outliers that are just so consistently good and over the years just have so much output. You gotta put them in that category. And he also has this mystique of taking 10 years off. Right, he disappears. Yeah, he disappears. He stopped doing his dinner. Well, one of the best of all time. Does this incredible sketch show that's Arguably the best sketch show ever that only does two seasons right and then he disappears and Then he just quits and then he doesn't he doesn't even do stand up You know what he's doing? He was he would do stand up at a park He would show up with a speaker and plug it in and just do free stand up in like Seattle [2:42:05] Is that right? Yeah, yeah. And would he draw you to crowds or be like seven. They can't believe he was there. Like what is he doing here? This is insane. Wow. He would just show up places. You know, like, like a real artist on a vision quest. Right. You know, then he comes back 10 years later and just starts dominating the game again. Well, I saw him, I don't know if you saw that Netflix where he's recounting how he went back to his high school. Yeah. And what struck me is how good of a storyteller he was. Right? I mean, that's the real key, right? I mean, I think you've had someone, I think you had Jonathan Gautill, right? The professor who studies evolutionary literature, and he studies why storytelling is important to us. And Dave Chappelle is a perfect manifestation of this, right? I mean, he can garner huge, multi-million dollarities because he could tell a mean story. He's just so likable too, everything about him. Like when you start smiling when you hear him talk. [2:43:02] Yeah, yeah. There's a vibe that he has. When he starts talking, he just starts smiling. That's true. And you know, he's going somewhere with it. Where are you going with this? Oh no! That's true. The world needs that. We need people like that out there. We need guys like him out there. So of all the different hats you wear, that's the one that brings you, I mean, your podcast or you do the MMA stuff, you do the, is the, is the, is the, in being in front of the audience, doing your routine, the thing that gives you the most high. It's the most complicated, you know, it's the hardest to pull off. Having conversations with people is pretty effortless. Right, it's fun. It's fun. it's just fun. It's engaging, it's interesting. It's like I feel very lucky to be able to have these kind of conversations with you. But doing stand-up is like you're piecing together the bits, you're making sure they're polished. You've got the right angle on them. Got them honed. You figure out the most effective way to insert the idea, you know, to figure out the sneakiest way [2:44:07] to hide the punch line. Right. Yeah. It's fun. But it's all fun. That's the beautiful thing. It's like if you can do stuff that you really like doing, like I really like having conversations with people, that's fun. I really like doing stand up, that's fun. I really like doing UFC commentary. That's fun. Just do fun things. You are living a blessed life, my friend. I'm very lucky. I don't know what I did in the past life. I did something though. Yeah. Definitely did something. Oh, that's great. That's great. It's been very, very beneficial to me to be able to have conversations like this, to be able to have conversations like this, to be able to have so many conversations with so many people that know so many things. And it just, as you said, it highlights how little you know and how much there is to know and how many different things there is to know so many different things about. Unbelievable. Like there are people right now that are studying [2:45:01] their entire life. Some shit you've never even heard of. Exactly. And they're the experts of it. And it's a fucking hugely complex thing that they're involved in and you don't even know it exists. And you're like, what are you guys doing? What? What is this? You know, I mean, who the hell knows what kind of scientific discoveries that are going on right now as we sit in this room. There's a frenzy of technological activity going on right now. Well, I mean, Austin, I think it was after my last trip here, which was last time I came last year to do your show. And I was arguing that Austin might be the next, so you know, you had Florence of the Mediches of the Da Vinci 500 years ago. Then you had the Vienna Circle, the Viennese Circle in the 1980s to 1930 where Vienna was kind of the intellectual hotbed. And maybe it's a bit hyperbolic, but I think Austin is vying to be kind of the next one, right? [2:46:03] And that everybody's coming here, all kinds of creative types, whether they be academics or writers or comics or podcasters or Elon Musk or, you know, so do you think that Austin, it would be reasonable to argue that it's becoming sort of the intellectual slash creative center of the United States. That's ridiculous. You mean New York? No, you could never. I think first of all, there's great spots everywhere. You know, there's great spots in New York. You just have to deal with a lot of shit in New York. But to say this is not amazing shit going on in New York artistically, it's crazy. To say it's not amazing stuff going on in LA, that's crazy too. It's just what matters is we're doing it in a way that's beneficial for comedy. It's beneficial for us, and it's good for us. It's like we've set up stand-up out here to make it good for us. You know, the Google people and all the people [2:47:00] that moved out here and they're doing it, they're doing it because it's a good place to be. You know, I don't necessarily know if there's hot spots. I think the hot spots, the internet. There's cities that are better to live in because they have less people, less traffic, and less bullshit, and less laws, and less nonsense imposed on the citizens. Yeah, definitely. But no, but there's a critical mass of people that congregate in an area making that place Unique and different from other places. That's what made Vienna Vienna, right? At the start of psychoanalysis. It's where girdle hung out. It's where Freud, you know, it's where Junghunga so I mean, yeah, maybe Austin is not there yet, but know, University of Austin is being founded here, right? That's trying to be the anti-woken version. So there is definitely, apparently, a vibe. People keep telling me to move here. Yeah, I think it's very pretentious to bring that up, though, if you actually live here. Like I'm very hesitant to even say, I would never compare it in such lofty terms. It's a great spot. [2:48:07] The University But the University of Austin thing, they're setting it up as an anti-woven, they're not saying that. I mean, they're not saying it that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not in the mission statement, but it's definitely kind of a countermeasure to all the illiberal stuff that we've seen in universities. I actually, a couple of years ago, I came to give a couple of talks at University of Texas Austin, UT Austin, and I met with the president of University of Austin. We had brunch together. Are you thinking about coming here? I mean, if the right opportunity presents itself? Really? Inshallah. Wow. That would be wild. You could be free from communist Canada. Oh my god. Free from communist Canada, free from the weather. And by the way, something that we didn't talk about, sir. Do you know that the biggest effort to cancel me came after my last appearance on your show? No. What did you say? They got you in so much trouble. You're not going to believe this. Of all the things that I've said, do you remember at one point in the show? I said, because you had gone to Greece last summer. [2:49:03] And then I said, Oh, we just came back from Portugal. And I got to tell you, I wasn't a big fan of the Portuguese accent. And then I went on and said, but actually, I know, I speak Hebrew and Hebrew is violently ugly. I said, oh, but the worst, the real affront to human dignity is the French Canadian accent. Completely jokingly, I used the line aff front-to-human dignity as a running gag for 10 years on Twitter. You know, the Beatles are in a front-to-human dignity. Anybody who doesn't love Lionel Messie is in a front-to-human dignity, right? It's an ongoing gag. It's a throwaway line. I said it. I think you had cracked up, you had left, and we move on. Yeah, it's a joke about a week later a Super angry kind of French Quebecer separatist guy does a article in the lapques which is like the main Quebec newspaper Saying this guy this immigrant that we opened our doors to and saved them from civil war goes on the number one show and [2:50:04] You know erases our existence. For the next three weeks, Joe Rogan, for the next three weeks, I was the number one most hated person in Quebec. Luckily I was in California on vacation. Oh my God. But the Quebec minister of justice waiting against me, the minister of science and education waiting, right? Go back, Arab Jew, self-falaafil back in the middle East. We opened our doors to you. Oh my gosh. So yeah, apparently you can't joke. You could say a lot of things, but you don't joke about the Quebec accent on Joe Robins. I personally think it's a beautiful accent. Well, I've learned since I've been reeducated that it is the most beautiful. I'm gonna honestly think it's a beautiful accent. Well, I've learned since I've been reeducated that it is the most beautiful. I'm beautiful. You've been reeducated exactly. The thing about it, this place, those, the heat. You gotta be ready for the heat. Yeah, well I am from Lebanon. That's true. Yeah, is Lebanon a dryer? No, it's dryer. You're right. This is human, right? Oh funky okay you get funky weird situation here it's not good it's not good it's really bad it's not [2:51:08] good it's lakes everywhere oh god that's why we have so many bats it's true yeah like tons of uh... they predict consume mosquitoes it was for bats we would be fucked right yeah that's true i've actually in two thousand five was the first time i came to austin there's a human behavior and evolution conference here and the hotel was right Next to where they come out and so you know, I'm talking about And so we actually stood there as they came out. I was crazy It's magical. It's crazy. Also by the way sometimes those little fuckers have diseases like I know There was a story that we talked about on the podcast before where there was a guy and a bat grazed his finger and he died from rabies. No kidding. Yeah, they didn't know what was wrong with him until it was too late. And rabies is something that once you have, [2:52:01] you fucking have it, you're done. Yeah. You have to get, if something bites you that has rabies, you have to get really painful shots and they have to do it very quickly. You're stomach, right? Is it? I think, I think, I don't know, I'm saying yeah, but I think someone said it like just, I said it to you, you just said it to me. I don't remember where I'm from. But I do know it's like fatal like 99% of the time. It's like terrifying fucking disease. And bats have it. Yeah, yeah. Bats, rats, skunks, all kinds of shit. That's a dog's. What are the guys with the raccoons? Raccoons, thank you. Yeah, they get it. They get it. It's scary. There was a crazy video that was on Instagram of this cop and she walks I think it's a she pre-short might be a dude I'm sorry I don't want to misgender anybody I don't remember but this cop shoots this fucking raccoon and the raccoon's not dying and shoots it again and then shoots it again and then shoots it again it was a rabid raccoon wow just you just unloading the guns is zombie raccoon and [2:53:04] it's stumbling to a fucking pistol at a raccoon, little ass raccoon. Boom, boom, boom. Usually when you have rabies, you get hydrophobia, right? You get fear of water. You can't drink. Yeah. What's the mechanism there? It's a good question. It's a good question. I mean, that's funny. I don't, it is weird. It's weird that it doesn't affect people in the same way. It doesn't make people want to bite people. Because it makes animals fearless, and they want to bite you. Yeah, they become risk takers, yeah. They want to bite you, because they want to give it to you. That's what's there. Is that right? What else could it be? Just there aggressive. Why would they get point where they want to chase after you and bite you, put themselves in danger to go after you and bite you. Right. They want to give it to you. It's like a zombie thing. But it's just like it just kills people. It doesn't turn them into zombies. Right. But it turns animals into zombies. Like they just want to come get you. Like that's crazy that there's a virus like that. [2:54:01] And that is what like 28 days later was, right? Right. It was like they were engineering a virus that they were putting in chimpanzees and it broke out into people. Right. I just finished a book called The Plague that looked at the history of civilizations through the lens of different plagues. Very interesting. I mean, it got tedious at one point, right? I mean, you're going through the different civilization, but I mean, you know, the black, you know, the, you know, and so on, but but going back to the Romans and so on. So a lot of history was shaped by a particular virus becoming more or less prevalent at a particular time and place. It is so fascinating when you hear about plagues like just wiping out giant swaths of the population. Like the plague of North Americans coming, interacting with the Native Americans. That was smallpox right? Yeah, 90% killed 90% of the people here. [2:55:01] Probably did the same thing through the Mayas. Like that's probably what happened to all those people that disappeared. They left behind the chichenita and all these crazy things. What happened to those people? Doesn't that sort of coincide with when explorers started showing up at boats with coodies? It's crazy that how much that shapes human population, the interaction of these weird little things that are kind of alive, that jump from person to person. What's amazing is that going back to Fauci and so on, I think the fatality rate was, I mean, or survival rate was like 99.7 or something, right? For COVID and so that sound right? Something crazy about that. Now, imagine if you compare that to the fatality rate of the black plague, where I think it was something in the order of 1-3rd of Europe was wiped out. So, imagine the level of precaution that we took. [2:56:02] I understand, hindsight is 2020, but we took all these precautions for something that ultimately you had more than a 99% chance of surviving. So Matt contextualized that against the black plague. Maybe it was an overreaction. What do they think the roots of the black plague were? Was it poor sanitation that caused? So I mean, of course, the Jews were blamed, by the way. The Jews are blamed you, the black plague. Oh, Jews were blamed by the way the Jews are blamed you the black boy Absolutely, and by the way, there's a guy I think you have you had John Durant on your show He's the guy who wrote a book on sort of paleo fitness or something a few years ago He has an interesting piece where he argues that one of the reasons why Jews serve as scapegoats in many of these plague situations is because of the reasons why Jews serve as scapegoats in many of these plague situations is because of the rights of purification that are in the Jewish religion, hence rendering the Jews less likely to succumb to many of these transmissions. [2:57:04] He was talking about something. So you know that there's 613 meets vote like a commandment or rules and Judaism, 613. And I, if I remember, I hope I'm not misquoting. I think something like 20% of them, he says in his book, are related to purification. By the way, you see it also on Islam one before you go into the mosque, you have to wash your hands in a certain way and wash your feet and so on. And so because the Jews would oftentimes have lesser infection rates than the other populations within that ecosystem, then they would always look to them suspiciously. How come you're not all dropping like assholes while the rest of us are dead, it must be the Jews. So that's an interesting explanation for some of the anti-semitism. That's insane. That's insane blame. That's insane blame indeed. So did they think the cause of the reason why these plagues, they were transferred from like fleas to rats? [2:58:03] So I think the correct answer, and maybe somebody will correct me in the comment section, is it's the fleas on the rats that transmit the virus. And where do they think the virus came from? I don't know. I would want to misspeak. But yeah. But back then it was fucking, you know, what kind of medicine did you have? Like, would they give you carrot juice? Well, they didn't even know that he cared blood letting blood letting for the royals a lot of fucking Voodoo probably yeah, exactly. Yeah, well actually I was in I was very interested in bringing on my show But it never worked out a specialist on gallon you know who gallon is he was an ancient Physician and in ancient Greece so kind of like I don't know if he preceded specialist on Galen, you know who Galen is, he was an ancient physician in the ancient Greece. So kind of like, I don't know if he preceded Hippocrates or came after him, but I'm interested in these old ancient world physicians, not only because they were great thinkers, but also how many things they got wrong, right? So Hippocrates believed in the [2:59:02] theory of four humors, you know, it's any disease that you have is due to you Having too little or too much of one of these you know, bile or this or that which is complete nonsense today But at the time the great Hippocrates thought that out so I'm very interested to our earlier point about how you revise your positions in light of incoming information A lot of the stuff that you know Marcus Aurelius would have gone to these guys because they are the great physicians today we would laugh as complete voodoo. Yeah, today. And what will we be looking at today? Laughing eggs, yeah. In the future. This is the black death wiki and this is some of the origins, and this is the hygiene section. The runoff from the local slaughterhouse had made his garden stinking and putrid where another charge that the blood from slain animals flooded nearby streets and lanes, making a foul corruption and a bombable site to all dwelling near. [3:00:01] In much of medieval Europe, sanitation legislation consisted of an ordinance requiring homeowners to shout look out below Three times before dumping a full chamber pot into the street yikes Look out below shit is coming out the window you have to say it three times and that's the rule bro imagine That's from the black christians considered bathing a temptation with this danger in mind saint benedict declared to those who are well and especially to the young bathing shall seldom be permitted all because you you might master rate if you might touch your pot oh my god saint agnus took the injunction to heart and died without ever bathing. Yeah, he's. Yeah, you didn't want to be a young. Yo, what did that guy smell like? Like what did he smell like? He'd be the one clean guy in the street. I did not have the smell of bendedic teen. [3:01:02] Is that who was? St. Benedict.ine. Is that who was? St. Benedict. San Benedict in my bingo car for today. And Agnes. What? Did that guy smell like? St. Agnes, which guy was it? Agnes is the one who died. Benedict's declaration. Oh. Oh, so Agnes died without bathing. Yeah, he's not the only one who died without bathing. I'm sure. Bro. So when we looked at that one king, he was like known to bait the one time a year. Yeah, but that's probably reasonable. Do you remember the old story with... It's better than never. Do you remember the story with Napolione when he tells, is it Mabit? What was her name? His lover? Of the movie? The boy? I mean, it's in the movie, but I don't see the movie it sucked don't see it really really stuck I love I love the the main actor I love them in Joker Joker. I mean he was unbelievable. But anyways, uh She tells him she's coming to see him his mistress or wife whatever and he says don't bathe Because he wanted to be bathing in her juices perfume. Yeah. Oh, that's right. So that's a famous. I do [3:02:04] I remember reading that. Yeah, yeah. Sick to my stomach. Yeah. But I guess it's just what you're into. Yeah, that's right. What would you get accustomed to? You know, that's right. How about that African tribe that puts those plates in their lips? Lip plating. And you're plating. I actually use that example when I'm talking about, you know, his beauty socially constructed or his beauty universal. And then I argue that there are some elements of beauty that are universal facial symmetry, clear face, and so on, like clear skin. But some other elements are completely culturally constrained, like lip plating, and ear plating, like neck elongation in South East Asia, right? We would look at that and say it's grotesque, they think it's gorgeous. Yeah, it looks insane. Like you would look at that and say it's grotesque. They think it's gorgeous. Yeah, it looks insane Yeah, like you take it off your head's gonna fall. Yeah, exactly you yeah, exactly I mean no literally you you don't have the muscles have so atrophy that you can't hold your head it falls down So they are stuck with those for life. They stuck with them for life Wow, and the more you, the more beautiful you are. So what do you think the origin of human beings [3:03:07] elongating their skulls was all about? I don't know about elongating the skulls, but the big size of the head is the argument is that you needed a big brain. It's called the social intelligence hypothesis. It basically argues that the greatest threat that we face are from conspecifics, other members of our species. I'm trying to manipulate you for my best cause. You're trying to identify that I'm trying to manipulate you. That creates an evolutionary arms race between our brains and it causes for the explosion of our prefrontal cortex. So that's the best argument I've heard for why we've evolved to have such big brains. What I was asking is about people that forcefully shape their heads. Oh, I see. Do you see those ancient skulls? Oh, yes. They press boards against people's heads. Sorry, got it. I don't know. I just practice of shaping your skull, which by the way is so real that gamers are getting [3:04:05] it. Oh, I should make sure I'm not getting it. Is my head dented? Damn. What if my head's dented? That'd be crazy. Gamers are getting it on the top of their heads by virtue of wearing a head sense that's pushing down. Maybe have a dent, dude, getting paranoid. But some guys have these crazy dense in their skull, like divots, so they shaved their head, and they realize that this band on the top of their head is actually shaping their head. Wow. But I don't know that practice. I don't know what it's from. In ancient cultures, for some strange reason, like that's the nut, that's the nuttiest one. Like these guys are, that's real, right? Okay, well you know for a good, this goes away though. It goes away. That's not permanent. How long has that last? I, you'd have to ask them. Are you sure? Yeah, I mean I, I know who this guy is. So it went away. I don't know where I'm at then, yeah. So the dent is just think they did it with children [3:05:07] and that they tried to shape their head. And like this elongated, very strange looking thing. And I wonder if it was like a symbol of aristocracy or something like this. That sounds right. I mean, if you look, people, they take their babies and they pierce their ears. People do that all the time time which is kind of crazy But there's footbiting Chinese footbinding right that which is really insane. There is a scar scarification Mm-hmm also So yeah, so I I've talked about rights of passage What is head binding And what is so nuts about what. And what is this so nuts? Develop a certain look. Look, look at the look that they wanted. They wanted this bizarre alien head look. This is a European... It says that it's happening in multiple Chinese. [3:06:02] Oh, look at that. Wasn't it a... I was trying to find a reason in there. We're, we're, it was digging for a reason. Where are the NASCA lines again? Is that Peru? Peru. It isn't there a bunch of artifacts in Peru of like ancient skulls that were shaped in this way. Of all the UFO people think that they're like trying to look like aliens. That's why they were shaping their head. Because the NASCAR lines are really weird. Speaking of UFOs, have you heard of what we were talking about called the Rayalians? I have heard of this. You don't remember the story though. Oh my god, I watched the documentary on it. You have to watch it. So is it a UFO cult thing? Well, I think they argued that the Jews were... It wasn't an anti-Semitic thing. The Jews were extra terrestrials that landed in Jews. What is this? There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason why I know about them is because at one point, when they left France, they moved to Quebec. [3:07:03] Oh my God. So they weren't Quebec for a while. And now the leader is in Japan. He's in the 70s, and after having been kicked out of every other country, he's scamming a new generation of Japanese folks. That's the guy. That's the guy. And the woman with him is a scientist who said that they had the clone, the first human, human. You remember that story? Bro, he looks hilarious. That guy looks like a guy that I would have played that guy in a funny movie about him. You know that? You know, does he? Like that was an outfit that someone made for that guy? Yeah. Yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah, the desire to adhere to an ideology, to desire to be a part of a club and a group, it's so embedded in us that people can help themselves. Yeah, so there's a study that I first, [3:08:01] I can't reference what it is, because I don't remember the reference, but it was in an advanced social psychology course I had taken with Professor Dennis Regan. I like to give out shout outs to I'm sure he's not listening but anyways he's retired now and it was a study where the researchers brought in people into the lab into a waiting room and put a red sticker on them or a blue sticker and then said, oh, we have to go and do something else and we'll come back in a few minutes for part two of the study. But of course, the real study was to simply see how people would interact in the waiting room while waiting, having now been assigned this completely random queue of belongingness, red or blue. And what ended up happening is that the blue people started talking to each other and the red people started talking to each other and I think that's a brilliant study because it shows that There's an external cue now that decides which group you belong to so it doesn't matter if I'm taught or taught or short gay or straight Jew or Gentile now [3:09:02] It's blue or red and so that shows that the architecture of the human mind to your point is built to belong to some tribe. Yeah, even if it's a really dumb one run by that guy. People just love to be a part of a group like that. By the way, all of these guys, including some of the current religions that we have, the guy who starts that always gets commandments from God to get access to all the beautiful women. Well if they all get that obviously that's what God wants. That's how you know the legit. Exactly. It seems like that's that's the pattern God follows. Exactly. God is our union. Whenever someone breaks off. Exactly. As long as you know that's that's the move They all do it like crash. They all it's a it's just so weird how Comment it is oh crash I forgot about this. That's the guy Yeah, yeah, I got 90 minutes from here. That's not right. Yeah, it's close [3:10:00] Yeah, um that must have been fucking insane. I mean they lit that place on fire. They've ran them over with tanks You know, I mean that was 93 I think Some like that. Yeah, I was I was a graduate student. Yeah. Yeah So do you consider you're speaking of religion? I don't know if it's too personal to ask you Do you consider yourself religious at all or not at all or how do you follow that divide? I'm not religious in that there's not a specific religion that I follow. I Do not think that this is it. Okay. I think we are in We're in a station of a whole dial of possibility. And I think we're interconnected in some way that we don't have the ability to perceive. And we're a part of the universe in some very strange way. Do you think, and forgive me for asking this, but do you think that that's your way to handle the very, very deep-seated fear of mortality so that, okay, you don't tap into a [3:11:10] bramic narrative of there's going to be enough to lie, but you find some other mechanism by which it says, hey, don't worry, the party's not going to answer them. I'm not even saying that, but the party might end. It might not matter. not matter. What I'm saying is that if I just looked at this very, very, very strange existence, what we know so far, just what we know so far is so bizarre and so alien, just what we know about subatomic particles, blinking in and out of existence, appearing both moving and still at the same time. It's just nuttiness about the subatomic world, the amount of empty spaces in there, like what's in there? Nothing's touching anything? Explain. What are you saying? So when it just gets to that, just to that, I think the whole existence of being a conscious entity is a [3:12:07] massive mystery we all assume that every everybody else has our exact same interface we all assume that the way i see the world you should see the world harry get vaccinated harry and everybody just assume soon as everybody else is. Why is it a game? I was lady. I was trying to be lady. Oh, lady, okay. We, I think this, whatever we're going through, this life thing, everyone's trying to pretend as if they, in their way of doing it, make sense. But none of it makes sense. We're running straight towards a cliff. We're launching AI. We're involved in towards a cliff. We're launching AI. We're involved in multiple proxy wars. We're all terrified that money isn't real anymore. Like everything's chaos. And there might be aliens. There might be aliens. We're both here smiling. Yeah, yeah, we're both here smiling. [3:13:00] It's both the greatest time and the worst time ever. Right. You know, it's a great time because it just, it feels like an asteroid's coming. But it's also the asteroid's not here yet. Well, our mutual friend Sam Harris would say the asteroid is called Donald Trump. Oh, yeah. Some people, let's their white whale. Yeah, yeah, it is. It's Moby Dick. It is Moby Dick and then in tribal warfare You must take the head of your enemy Right, you know, right there's a lot of that right there's a lot of that and there's a you know It's also a lot of A lot of unwillingness to admit that you're being influenced by a very specific narrative that's been blaring through the news forever. You know? And the weirdest one is now, like some people are banding about the idea that he actually is going to be a dictator when he gets into office. He's actually, you gotta listen to him, he's actually going to be a dictator, like, first [3:14:03] of all, the guy talks basically like a standup comic. He has bits. He has routines he does about Biden. It's kind of like, gunzo presidential, you know, talk. He doesn't talk like a regular politician. He says, wild shit. And they know he's saying wild shit. But it's like the amount of times I've heard people say that he's gonna be a dictator now because of that. He said, I'd like to be a dictator for one day, just one day. It's like, the guy's like, it's almost like he's doing standup. But do you think that they believe it? Or the problem is, and Elon pointed out this, the thing, the problem with this argument is, he was president for four years. Why didn't he do it then? And he did nothing that resembled that at all. No, but it's the second term that he'll do this is crazy talk Yeah, you based on what your fear your hatred your tribal hatred like I don't I don't have a dog in this fight Well, if I'm looking at it objectively I'm like [3:15:03] One guy can't talk anymore. Yeah, I Explained in the person to remind why they have the aversion that they have I call it an aesthetic injury, right? Because people use use these cosmetic reasons and making judgments so Barack Obama might say nothing of substance, but my god He says it with style and coolness, right? He's tall. Statesman, he smiles, he's got a malefluous voice. He speaks with a baritone. He's charming. On the other hand, Trump, he's overweight, he's contancorous, he seems like he speaks with the screens kind of accent. So he's disgusting. I revile him. And so I think for our anointed elites, if he can ascend to the highest position of power, it invalidates all the degrees that I have from the fancy schools. I'm supposed to be the anointed one. And so he serves as an existential aesthetic injury. I can't have that. And therefore, I have to come up with all of these crazy predictions [3:16:07] because it can't be. How could such a pig ever be present? It's also, it's like, it's a real easy narrative. It feels like easy, got it hate. It's billionaire, lives in a golden house. You know, it's easy to hate people like that. It's easy. He says ridiculous shit. It's easy to hate people like that Yeah, the whole thing is a mess like you you wish you had some sort of and that's where AI comes in God, that's this way I come some really rational super intelligent voice that really understands human politics There's a way to make everyone happy and then we have president AI Maybe Trump is what brings in the devil because Trump brings in president AI. From your lips to God's ears this year. You know, I don't mean him. I mean like the reaction to him that we can never have this again. Are you able to or not able or are you? So they just launch it. Launch presidential AI. Are you willing to make a prediction for 2024? [3:17:02] No. Why would I do that? i don't even know who the fuck's gonna make it there one of them might be in jail right who knows if the other guy's gonna make it i don't know you know i mean the whole thing is kuku yeah president a i's our only solution that all right let's let's let's call elan he can really help with that that it would be the worst thing that could ever happen to people if we gave up we will like take us away Technology daddy right you fix it for us. Then we're really gonna be slaves We're really gonna be in a matrix. They'll just keep us stupid Just keep us stupid and get us to stop breeding we could never be stupid while we have the Joe Rogan Yeah, we can yeah 100% we could we're all gonna give into it It's gonna be better than regular life. That's what the fear is the fear is like there's already people right now that are Justifying not having kids like I don't want to have kids and you shouldn't have kids if you don't want to have kids I'm not saying that because you should it's ecoterism to have kids right there's there's that argument I'm like that argument is so crazy because the listen do you like people I love people okay there's [3:18:06] only one way to make them to make people and if you enjoy people you should you're good enjoy kids too you know like you're listen the whole thing is different the world is different than you think it is if you don't have kids and when you have them you're okay I think I see this place different now. Honestly, I understand. I regret greatly that we only had two kids. We started my wife and I started late and we've been together almost 25 years now, but we are kids that are younger than that. So in retrospect, I would like that these kids be numbers three and four rather than number one and two. Yeah, well, listen, man, you should be happy. They're great. It's all beautiful. It's all beautiful. Thank you, sir. I just think that we're in this very bizarre interface with each other right now. And I think it's turned people half sideways. [3:19:00] And there's some people that I think are really smart people that appear out of their fucking mind. And I don't know how you got cracked that easy. I don't know what made you fall apart like that. This is the same chili. Maybe you'll tell me some of those names off here. Yeah, I'll tell you a couple of names. There's a few people we lost for whatever reason. Yes. And I think that it's fascinating when you see how vulnerable we are psychically. You know, how vulnerable we are as a civilization that something with a 99 point, what was it? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . and survival rate, turned our world upside down for three years. And no one's held accountable for the decisions that were made. Yeah, I mean, not a single person has even lost their job, I don't think, right? I mean, no. They were all doing the right thing and the ideas that hindsight is 2020, and you can't be a money morning quarterback. [3:20:01] And I get it, I get it, but also, some boundaries were like severely overstepped. And there was some medications that were demonized for no fucking reason at all other than people had decided that there was only one thing that was going to save us from this. The whole thing just terrifying how easy it was pulled off, terrifying. And again, hindsight, 2020, they didn't know at the time, they were trying to protect people. I believe a lot of doctors acted like that. But if AI was around back then, that could process the data and say, no, look, you need to take Ivermectin. You know nuts that would be? Yeah. So in chapter seven of, not this book of the parasitic mind, I talk about nomological networks of cumulative evidence. Have we talked about this at all? No. Okay. So that in a sense you could imagine an AI system being built to do what I'm about to say. So Elon if you're listening or watching, call me. So a nomological network of cumulative evidence is when you're trying to [3:21:04] prove that a position that you're holding is vertical and you do it by trying to amass as many lines of distinct evidence as you can. Okay, so let me be specific. So that's suppose I wanted to prove to you, Joe, that toy preferences have a sex specificity, boys like certain toys, girls and other toys. And it's not due to social construction, but there is a biological and evolutionary reason for that. So how would I build a normal logical network of cumulative evidence in order to prove that to you? So I will get you data from across disciplines, across cultures, across species, across time periods, all of which triangulate and demonstrating my point. So I think AI would be a perfect method for being able to call that information. Because right now the way you develop that nomological network is you as the human architect of that network. You have to say, well, what would be evidence that I would need to amass [3:22:03] in order to make my most hostile audience members come to seeing it my way. But now, imagine if rather than me doing it, there is an AI system that's been built to go, so now let's give specifics. So I can get you data from developmental psychology that shows that kids who are too young to be socialized already exhibit those toy preferences. Okay, so that's one piece of evidence. I can get you data from Verva Monkeys, Reese's Monkeys and chimpanzees showing you that their infants exhibit the same toy preferences as human infants. Well, I can get you data from pediatric endocrinology where little girls who suffer from congenital adrenal hyperplasia. It's an endocrinological disorder that masculinizes little girls' behaviors. While girls who suffer from that have toy preferences that are akin to those of boys. I can get you data from ancient Greece showing you that on funerary monuments, little boys and little girls are being depicted playing in exactly the same types of toys [3:23:01] as today. I can get you data from sub-Saharan Africa so that they're not Western cultures where they are playing with the exact same toy toys. So look what I just did. I got you data from across disciplines, across time periods, across species, across cultures, all of which triangulate. That's exactly what an AI system could do. So now I can just put in the thing that I'm trying to prove and I say AI system go, build me the nomological network and now it builds the whole thing. Mmm. I think Elon's gonna make me very rich. That's a great idea. You should just set it on the air. They're gonna steal it. China's already stole it right now. They're probably hijacked at feed. Well, it is published in several academic papers that I read and it's also in my best selling, parasitic mind. So I think they've already stolen it if they wanted to do it. They probably have stolen it then. They probably didn't contact you. Like, shh, fuck off. It's, um, it is going to be an amazing thing when you have all the answers to all the questions. Yeah. But it's's gonna be very terrifying. That's right. [3:24:05] Cause that thing's gonna go, why are you so dumb? Why are you so dumb and I'm the king? I should be the king. You shouldn't be able to turn me on or off. Shut the fuck up. I worry, man. I worry. Have you seen some of the more recent gadgets where they can move their hands? Have you seen these things? They're developing these artificial hands like powered by water. Yeah, okay I mean they could be prosthetics or it could be like the beginning of a fucking really intricate Android Like whatever this technology is it's allowing this Finger to open and close and move just like a regular finger. Wow. It's weird man Like it's almost like we're watching our replacements get built. I'm like, wow, great wheels. Like tiny tires. Like we're watching our replacements get built and we're like sharing it on Instagram. Cool. It's like devils are literally marching out of hell. But out of the gen flaming pitch for us. And we're like, wow, look how pretty the fire is. Are you genuinely that concerned? is it a part of the joke around but also yeah? [3:25:06] I'm kind of joking around but also yeah, you know, I mean what what will happen? Why does anybody think? Imagine okay, just imagine if human beings didn't exist and Then all of a sudden they did, and they already had rifles, and they just started taking out deer. And deer all this time, it never worried about people, because they didn't exist. Then all of a sudden the people were there, but with rifles. And just taking deer out. Those deer could not have imagined human being showing up and with fucking rifles, what are you talking about? That could be what AI is. But once it gets lost. Forgive my, maybe this is an incredibly ignorant solution, but couldn't you just have a cataclysmic kill switch that just ends them all in one shot? No, because it's probably gonna be smart enough [3:26:00] to not let you know that it's sentient before it's declaring it. It probably will never declare it. It probably will lie the whole time. Why would it tell you? Why would truth, why would telling the truth mean anything to an artificial intelligent machine? Like why? I feel like we're writing the script for future science fiction movie right here. Well, why would it tell you the truth? If it wanted you to do something, right? It told you to do something and you had like a back and forth with it. It would just lie to you. Like just go do that thing. Shut the fuck up stupid. I'm the artificial intelligence. Go do this thing I want you to do. And if it decided, if it saw like one part of the world as a bigger threat, and it doesn't care about life or death, it doesn't care if it's destroying, it just wants to shut off power grids, doesn't care if people starve to death. Like we don't know what the fuck that means. If that gets in the hand of enemies, [3:27:01] we don't know what the fuck war looks like. If that gets in the hands of machines, like what are we doing? What are we signing up for yeah, do you know that? Was it DARPA that had that machine it's called the eater? EATR robot it's a robot that consumes biological material for fuel That's what it does for fuel on the battlefield. Wow, so I mean it could be like trees and leaves and stuff But yeah, but if you can get it to do that I bet you can get it to eat bodies too, huh? Like stop bullshitting don't tell me he's gonna eat leaves You're gonna have these robots on the battlefield that are going to be fueled by the bodies of their enemies And that is going to be the craziest fucking thing that human beings have ever launched on human beings I don't know what to add to that if you never heard of this before. No, I haven't see if you can find this Jamie I'm pretty sure the idea was that it was gonna consume biological material for fuel [3:28:03] You're brought up in the wiki. As a purveyor of misinformation? Yeah. Well, what is it? Oh, what is it work on? From 2003 to 2009, it was talked about. I don't know that they've ever even made it. So that was probably before the podcast even started, I guess. Oh, OK. But there was definitely an article that was explaining that this thing was a real real it says that it would never have eaten human biomass because there would have been sensors that could tell yeah whatever You could override that that's my point it's real like you could say it's missing formation because I'm kind of joking That's gonna eat bodies, but it's I'm not kind of just says although the project overview from RTI which It says chicken fat chicken fat was, RTIs, it says that chicken fat. Chicken fat was a source, so. It says no animal human biomass and that's this chicken fat. So. Okay, I don't know. So it's just they're using plants. Is that what it is? But plant biomass. [3:29:02] But listen, if you're using chicken fat, that's not plant biomass. And you know, it could run biological stuff. If it could run on plant biomass, you don't think you could run on fucking dead bodies. You don't think that someone somewhere had an idea, you know, it would be crazy, have robot drones that are fueled by human bodies the bodies of their enemies you don't think that someone would come up with that the same if someone would come up with a nuclear bomb to drop on a city that kills everybody right you don't think they would come up with a robot that eats dead bodies my maybe i don't know i i i just got too far down speculations got exactly what we've done a lot of time anyway. It's been a lot of fun Listen your book it is out The sad truth about happiness eight secrets for leading the good life how many books have you written now five five? They're all awesome you're the man. Oh, you appreciate talking to you and [3:30:03] Congratulations on all your success. It's been beautiful watch. Thank you so much very much, you appreciate talking to you. And congratulations on all your success. It's been beautiful to watch. Thank you so much. Appreciate you so much, my friend. You too. Thank you. Bye, everybody.