#2107 - Billy Walters


2 months ago




Billy Walters

1 appearance

Billy Walters is one of the most successful American sports bettors of all time, as well as an entrepreneur, philanthropist, and author. His new book is "Gambler: Secrets From a Life at Risk." www.realbillywalters.com

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Billy Walters, Gambler: Secrets from a Life at Risk

Jeff Benedict, Armen Keteyian, Tiger Woods


Episodes from 2024

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Good to see you. It's good seeing you Joe. It's good being here. Thank you So you know George Knapp? I do know George. Did you get involved in the whole UFO thing with him? Not really I knew George got introduced to him, you know his the way he pays the bills he's He covers the news in Las Vegas and does a lot of feature stories and that's how I met George and We've become good friends over the years. I have a tremendous amount of respect for George and the work he does. He's a great man. Yeah. Real good guy too. Did he cover your story? George has covered a lot of stories involving me over the years. I've been in Las Vegas. I moved there permanently in 1982 and since I've been there I've been involved in a lot of different things, indictments. I did done quite a bit of business there. The biggest business mistakes I've probably made, I did some business there with, I did some public-private partnerships with local government. I didn't make any money. Matter of fact, I lost quite a bit of money, but I got quite a bit of notoriety that I wasn't looking for. I got involved in a world that I didn't totally understand until I got into it. I got into it for business and found myself wrapped up in a political world and that wasn't good. They think gambling is a dirty business. The political world that's the real dirty business right? Yeah I would agree with that. I've met a lot of, uh, people over the years, uh, in that world and, uh, have a lot of respect for some, and of course, I'll, I will hold my thoughts and comments about others. That's a game that you don't want to bet on, right? That, that is a rig game. Yeah. That's pretty tough game. That's that one there's That was pretty much over before you get involved. I think most so I've been paying attention to your story And it's pretty wild man. You you essentially started gambling in a pool hall when you're about six years old. That's right. Yeah That's a very young age to get the bug [2:00] Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting how I got there You know my father passed away when I was a year and a half old and my mother left to find work. I was born and raised in a small real town in central Kentucky, a little town called Luffordville. I was lucky. I had two sisters who were older than me. My grandmother on my father's side took my oldest sister, my grandmother on my father's side took my oldest sister, my aunt on my father's side took my other sister and my mother, my grandmother on my mother's side took me to raise me and luckily for me I could have had four parents I could have had a better role model than her. She worked two jobs, she was an extremely proud lady, She wouldn't have taken any assistance from anyone if her life depended on it. And so I learned a lot of things from her early on in life that have been extremely important to me and have kind of carried me through to where I'm at today. And she worked these two [3:01] jobs. I mean the first places Joe I ever went when I left my home were a Baptist church, you know, Sunday school on Sunday morning, you know, church afterwards, training, you know, Sunday night, prayer meeting on Wednesday night. And I went to a Christian youth organization on Sunday night called the Royal Ambassadors. But when I was around four, my grandmother, she had these two jobs. And she had to have someone to keep an eye on me. Well, my uncle Harry had a pool room. So she started dropping me off at the pool room when I was four years old. And my uncle Harry, he went to the back pool table. He put up a couple old wooden co-cola cases, handed me a pool stick, and he went back to work. And I actually started banging pool balls when I was four and by the time I'm six I'm racking balls in Uncle Harry's pool room and playing penny nine ball. So my life when I was six in church five times a week and I'm in my Uncle Harry's pool room and I just began the first grade. [4:05] So that was my life. Wow. Yeah. And then you went on from that to be arguably one of the most successful gamblers ever. I did and I have, excuse me, there's been a lot of lot ups and downs. I've got a lot of knots on my head in between I'm sure But You know someone asked me how I became so good at gambling I told him I became good at it by losing and And you know, I think my life, Joe, when you kind of look back on it, the thing that's sustained me has been perseverance. You know, I learned from my grandmother at a very early age, you know, you don't quit. You know, if you make a commitment to anything, you keep it, come, you know, come hell or high water. [5:01] And the, so when I look back on my life and I look back through where I begin in gambling and where I'm at with it today, I literally almost can't believe that sometimes I didn't quit. And I tried to figure out, okay, why didn't I quit? Well, the bottom line is I loved it. I had a passion for it. It was something that I really enjoyed doing. I don't think there's any question in my mind at one time I was addicted to it and and then of course I was determined to be successful at it and fortunately I was and am. So talk me through how does it start? So you're a little kid you're playing penny nine ball and then how does it go on to big million dollar sports betting? well I Started off playing penny nine ball and by the time I was nine or ten I'm playing you know five and five dollar nine ball and and [6:01] As I got older and I made more money The amount of money I was gambling for increased because I had more money to gamble with. And then as I became proficient at it, became good at it, it's like anything that you want to do, that you're investing in, if you feel, if you're confident and basically certain that you're going to be successful, you want to, you know, win as much as you can. And as, you know, my bankroll got bigger as the amount of money that I had to bet with became bigger or got bigger, my bets became much larger. And so there was a combination of confidence and access to capital and access to markets. So how good were you at pool? I could beat all the local guys and like a solid shortstop. Yeah, like a solid shortstop. I couldn't be a good player. I played Allen Hopkins once. [7:01] He rocked. Oh, no kidding. He robbed me and I played Steve Meniserach once and he robbed me too. I couldn't beat players with that caliber, but I could beat players at local guys. I was a solid shortstop. That's a very good description, Joe. I used to play a lot of pool. Yeah. Yeah. I lived in New York. I was playing eight hours a day. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, we hours a day. Okay. Yeah. We probably know the few guys. I'm sure. I know Alan Hopkins. Yeah. And I met Steve from Israel. Yeah. I played in a tournament with him in Weston Billiards in New Jersey. Yeah. Elizabeth, New Jersey in like 1990. I used to go to Johnson City. That was probably a little bit for your time. Oh, I've heard of Johnson City. That must have been amazing. It was amazing. And, of course, you course, over the years, Ronnie Allen, I'm sure you know Ronnie Allen. Sure. Sure. There's, we probably know some of the same people, but I'm sure I was never as good at players. You ought to quit playing pool when I was like 15, 16 years old. And then you got into heavy sports betting. [8:01] What was like the first thing you really got into where you like had to do research? Cause I know the way you would study like a team when you're placing bets, very meticulous. You're looking for injuries. You're looking for every possible advantage. You essentially had an algorithm before there was algorithms involved in sports. I got associated with a guy who had an algorithm and I was handicapping sports and I was doing it with a pencil and piece of paper as everyone else was at that time except one guy and I met this guy indirectly through others in the late 70s and became more directly involved with him in 1982 when I moved to Las Vegas. And then by the mid-80s, he and I were sole partners. The other people involved initially were all gone except he and I. Then I realized, Joe, during that period of time, that he was going to eventually lose his edge. And I recruited six other guys that had similar backgrounds to his and they did you know they did their [9:09] analysis independent of what he was doing the only person they talked to was me and they provided me with with their information I knew each I knew their strengths I knew their weaknesses and I would take a look at seven different pieces of information and then decide what I was going to do. And then over the years, like anything else, I got a little bit better at what I did. And luckily, you know, I've worked Joe over the years with probably a minimum of 50 handicappers. Every one of them have basically gotten to the point to where they couldn't win. You know, in order to win handicapping, you have to come up with new ideas and you have to come up with new ideas that are relevant, that mean something. And because the people making the line are getting smarter, the competition is getting smarter. So whatever edge you start off with, that's [10:05] going into a road. Other people are going to catch on. Okay? Well over the years and when I was in my heyday I was spending six to eight million dollars in research and development. Really? Oh yeah. Every year? Every year, yeah. And now I probably spend at least a million now. And as an example, football season is over. We're already working on next season. The day the season was over. We're doing simulations. We're running lots of different things to go back and see if we can find something that would have made a difference in the game or will make a difference in the game going forward as far as the prediction is concerned. That's relevant, that we can quantify that makes sense. And if we can, then that, you know, our information, it will strengthen our information and allow us, allow me to continue to be able to battle sports. I'll only battle sports Joe today. I love it. If I didn't, I didn't have the passion for it. [11:02] I couldn't do it, but I still win and I have an advantage. And if I get to the point that I don't have that advantage, I'll quit. Okay? But I still have the advantage, but in order to maintain that advantage, I continually have to be able to recognize fine things that make a material difference or that quantified difference with the outcome of a game to stay ahead, you know, that quantified difference with the outcome of a game to stay ahead of the herd, so to speak. Because you got really smart people making the line. You got other really smart people betting. Okay, I'm the guy, I don't bet on Monday or Tuesday or Sunday night when the line soft. I'm the guy, I bet on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Why do I bet on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Why do I bet on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday? Because that's when you can bet the most money. Early in the week you can only make small bets. I'm not interested in making smaller bets today. Why do they have it set up like that? Just in case something happens when it's injured? Well, no. [12:01] When the liner recently comes out, say on Sunday night or Monday morning, and all sports are different, some sports are more vulnerable than others. The NFL is the least vulnerable sport of all. It's the toughest of all to beat in the world. As a matter of fact, most of the guys that gamble for a living or call themselves professional handicappers, they don't bet the NFL because it's just too tough to beat. Okay, if that line comes out on Sunday or Monday or whenever it comes out. That's your best chance of finding something there where that odds maker missed something. Okay, but by Tuesday, that's gone. Okay, now different sports, college football, a non-power five conference team, you may find more of advantage with that early on or even later on because in the colleges, they're making a line on 130 games and it's much more difficult for them to make the line on 130 games. [13:03] You got personnel to change this every year. I mean, it's just more difficult for them to make the line on 130 games. You know, you got personnel that changes every year. I mean, it's just more difficult for them to do that. And then on top of that, the Power Five teams, you know, like Texas is an example. There's not much about Texas that everybody doesn't know. But when you're looking at Louisiana Tech or you're looking at one of these other teams, say a non-Power Five team, okay, the guy who's actually doing the handicap and may have an advantage over the guy making the line because there may be things pertaining to that particular team that it's not in the USA today. It's not on ESPN sports. I mean, there could be a little advantages, but back to what you were talking about, why do they have the limits cheaper is because the line is more vulnerable. I would say by, you know, Tuesday with the NFL, by Tuesday, Wednesday with the college football, Fire five or non-fire five, all those numbers are solid. Years ago, Joe, the guys that I actually feel like were smarter book [14:02] makers than the bookmakers today. As soon as they felt like the line was solid, they would take a full limit bet, because if you're a bookmaker, stop and think about it. What you're trying to do, you're trying to write as many bets on one side as you are on the other side. So as an example, once you feel like your number's solid, if you take a bet on a Wednesday or Thursday and that game doesn't start until Sunday, you can move your line. You've got four or five days to get action back on the other side. Some of the bookmakers today, and frankly, I don't understand the rationale at all because it really doesn't make any sense. A lot of them wait until the day before the game or the day of the game before they'll take a full-limit bet, which makes no sense because what happens if they wait till the day of the game or the day before the game and they take a full-limit bet, they have a small amount of time to get action back the other way. I mean if you're a bookmaker, what is bookmaking? It's taking bets both ways and you're trying to earn the vigorous. [15:07] Okay, you're not, you're really not trying to gamble. You're, you know, there's going to be times you're going to be lopsided on one game, but what you're, you know, the ideal thing for a bookmaker is to have as many, have as many bets on one side as he does the other in the volume equal out and you've earned the juice and basically you got no risk or very little risk Okay, so I can't answer your question as to why some people today wait until later on I mean, I think in their minds they may think well, maybe the lines more solid or something That's the only way I could but at the end of the day the line by Thursday is solid as a rock. And I think if I were a bookmaker, and I have been a bookmaker, as soon as I feel like the line's solid and I know whatever the sport is, I want to take as many bets as I can take, as early as I can take them to move my line to draw action back on the other side. But you've got people out there today that [16:04] some, not all, the guys that I think are smart, are smarter bookmakers, they start taking, you know, full-time bests on Thursday because that gives them, that gives them Sunday night, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, now they feel like the line is solid and it is solid. But if they take a bet on a Thursday, they got Friday, they got Saturday, they got Sunday to get back action back on the other side. So it's a but you have different strategies from different guys. You got a lot of guys that are today, Joe, that are booking. They really don't know anything about booking. You know, they they're great at creating databases. They're great at creating, you know, generating customer accounts and what have you, but they really don't understand the art of bookmaking. And, you know, they've got these preconceived opinions that, you know, that, and what most of them do, they'll go hire someone who, to be their bookmaker, and they'll look at that [17:01] guy's, you know, they'll look at his background or his bio and he'll have, he would have worked at someplace in Las Vegas at some hotel and he'll have a title of XYZ or whatever it is. And they, you know, they don't really know anything about bookmaking. This guy looks like the real deal. He's been interviewed and you read the things written about him and you would think he, you know, he knows what he's doing so they hired the guy they put him in that position and A lot of those guys don't know anything about booking. They really don't and what they do know is they know they don't know They know that they know don't know a lot about booking. Okay, and so as a result what they do instead of trying to promote and create action They're they're trying to a lot of things that they do instead of trying to promote and create action, they're, they're trying to, a lot of things that they do in my opinion, uh, it, uh, uh, it keeps action down so to speak. Hmm. Hmm. Now there's exceptions to the rule. You know, you've got a sports book in, uh, in Las Vegas called Shurka. [18:03] They're open to anyone and everyone that comes in the door. I don't care who you are. And they have room limits. They give everyone the same room limits. And they're generous limits. I mean, on the NFL, you can bet $50,000 a game. On college football, you can bet up $250,000 a game. Sometimes they take $20,000. Sometimes they take $30,000, but they're smart. These guys know how to book. I mean, and they want to, anyone can open the counter. I have an account for myself. They take a bet for me, they move the line, and they're gonna force somebody back on the other side of that bet. But they know how to book. There's guys there, Nick Bogdanovich, who's been in the business for a long, long time, and others, they understand the art of bookmaking. You've got others in Las Vegas and you've got others in other parts of the world that really understand bookmaking. You've got some guys offshore that understand extremely well. [19:02] It seems like such a complicated and stress filled life. And when you're telling me things like you're spending millions of dollars every year on research, before the internet, what kind of research are you getting? How are you getting research on NFL teams or boxers or anything, whatever you're gambling on? boxers or anything, whatever you're gambling on. Well, prior to the Internet, some of the information today that you can get off your smartphone was golden. I used to have a crew of guys when I first moved to Las Vegas in 1982. We would send them out to the airport and we had relationships with various airlines and we would be able to get the newspapers that came off of all the planes that flew And we had relationships with various airlines and we would be able to get the newspapers that came off of all the planes that flew into Las Vegas. And they were filled with local sports stories that were written by that local sports writer. And then we bring them back and we had readers [20:00] who read those stories. And anything that they read and won those stories that they felt like was material to that particular game, it would be passed along to the handicapper. And today, you know, you can read a thousand newspapers online and get that same information or you could, we have a program that we've written now that, you know, I could, we have like 140 beat writers in the NFL that we cover. Anything that that beat writer writes or anything that comes out on Twitter or social media, you know, the program we have, it will scrape it and we have that immediately. We know, and so if there's a story there and there's anything in that story that we feel like that is going to have any real meaning toward the game, you know, we're able to take that a lot of time. You know, the time involved with it is everything too, because eventually that story is going to come out everywhere. But back when you're talking about prior to the internet, we, you know, and you know, [21:05] Joe way, way back, it's kind of crazy, but I used to have a Zenith Transant Oceanic Radio and I was setting a list of pre-game shows and post-game shows, but the other thing I used to do is I would call a lot of the cities and I had people in all these cities and I would have someone to put the phone up to the radio and I would listen to the pre-game show and I would listen to the post-game show. And yeah, and you were able to learn a lot from that. And today, you know, information is, it's a lot more accessible than it was then. So you would send people to the airport, they would find these local papers, and you would scour these papers and go through these articles. And what specifically looking for hard hits, injuries, how someone's doing, exceptional plays, someone who's really coming up, what would you be looking for? Well, you're looking for injuries and you're looking for game plans. [22:02] And as an example, if a coach says, look, we're gonna slow this thing down, we're gonna start running the ball. First thing comes, the total's not gonna be as much. If he slows this thing down, he starts running the ball. They're not gonna get as many plays and there's probably a pretty high possibility that the total is going to come down some on this game. They talk about players, they talk about injuries, especially the quarterback. If you're talking about the quarterback and you've got a quarterback who's playing injured, I mean how that's going to affect his performance is really important. And they're always kind of playing injured. Always playing injured is, as you talked about in the book I wrote, you know, there's 1400 players in the NFL, there's about 600 of them that have a value. And we have a value assigned to each and every one of those individual players. But as you've noted, a lot of them, almost every one of them are playing with some type [23:05] of an injury once the season begins. Okay, then, okay, who's playing? Again, we listen and we follow Dr. David Chow quite a bit and we think he does an excellent job. He's on a serious on the NFL network and he talks about the key players on a weekly basis and from an injury perspective how he feels like that's going to affect their performance. There are many more players that Dr. Chow doesn't cover that we cover that are playing injured. And again, we do a lot of reading. We got 140 beat writers we cover. I have a guy on my team he's a qualitative guy he's not a computer guy right probably knows more about the nfl as far as a qualitative guy is concerned i believe in any man of life okay what do you mean by that a qualitative guy? well okay the 1400 players he knows who they are [24:01] he knows uh... he knows their positions uh... he knows knows what the value those players are as far as we're concerned. He knows how to adjust their value based upon their injury and and after we get the medical information we'll figure out how we feel like their their performance is going to be affected against that particular opponent that week. And then if a player's worth a point and a half, we may downgrade him to he's only worth three quarters of a point, or he may be worth a point. If a guy's out, okay, we got a backup. We know the value of the guy's out. What's a backup worth? Okay, backup could be worth zero. He could be worth, you know, half a point and he's replacing a guy that's a point and a half guy. So we have to downgrade the priority and buy a point that week. And the other thing with this qualitative guy, he watches every NFL game. He grades every play. Okay. How many times have you watched the football game and you'll see the score? [25:01] It wasn't indicative of at all of what the score should have been. So let's say you know receivers going down the field and and he didn't have him out of then 20 yards of him and he gets on a perfect pass he just drops it. Okay well he was unlucky he should have had that pass. On the other hand let's say he's going down the field and we had a pass like that in the playoffs when San Francisco was playing Detroit. They threw a ball and it had a helmet ricochet and ended up in a real long completion and a touchdown. Well, that was lucky. Okay, so when we look at the box score, we look at the yardage, we take that off. There's plays that happen in the NFL when you look at box scores, as far as we're concerned, they're misleading. Okay, when you look at the total amount of yards, everybody kind of looks at the same thing. You look at the time possession. [26:02] So you have to go over each individual play and deduct all the lucky shit. Yeah, and then we have player participation. We know who played in every play. God, you got to keep up on all this. So to give you an example, Joe, Pittsburgh. Okay, TJ Watts out. Okay, he isn't playing. Well, if you look at Pittsburgh's performance with him in the lineup and him out of the lineup, it's unbelievable that one guy could have that much effect on a team. So if you're looking at offensive performance against Pittsburgh with TJ Waddow, you're not looking at what Pittsburgh's defense really is. So you got to make an adjustment when you look at that and you got to put that into your priority. When I wrote the book, it took me six months to do this one section. We wrote what we call the masterclass. [27:01] Okay. And I wrote what we call betting strategy. I wrote that for the 99.9% of people who bet sports, who, and we got a lot of new sports betterers today, that have no chance. I wrote that for them. Okay. And I put the basics in there. I put basic, I put basic betting strategy in there, which that's probably as important to them or more important than handicapping is. I put, I put all the charts in there that tells them exactly what each half point is worth. I put charts in there that tells them exactly how a money line compares to a point spread. Flight on the Games 2, here's a money line equivalent. If you can get a better deal, take it. If you can't, take the other. Okay? I put stuff in there, basic stuff, because none of that stuff is out there now guys don't have any idea If they're buying a half a point what the fair price is to pay and all these all these points They have a different value as an example if you're buying a game owner off of three Save from two and a half to three and in the NFL or three and a half to three. That's worth 22 additional cents [28:03] It's not worth 23, but it's worth 22. If you can do it for 20, buy it. 21, buy it. If you feel like it's going to be a low scoring game, and you can buy for 22, or you might, whatever, buy it. But if it's 23, you're better off taking the 2.5. But people don't know that, Joe. Okay, what's the value of 2? Well, the value of two is much less than this three. The value of two is only worth six cents, where three's worth 23. The different numbers have different values. So I put those charts in there for the guy that I pointed out to. I also put another section in there. It's, we'll call it kind of the advanced section. And that section, I tried to write in such a manner to where I felt like, you know, people could understand it. And that's the guy who, or the lady who wants to become a serious handicapper. And I explained in there exactly, 100%% Joe exactly how I do everything. [29:06] Okay. This book was written at the end of the NFL season, not this year, but last year. It came out in August. Everything that I know about sports betting and handicapping is in that book. I would not have sold that information 10 years ago for $20 million. And I never had any intention of ever writing this book and putting that in there. But I'm 77. It's my legacy. I see all these new people that are betting sports and they're doing it in states now where it's legal. I'm proud of that. I'm glad that sports has come around to that, but also I still have, there's a lot of things I'm apprehensive about also. But anyway, so I wrote this, that was one of the reasons I wrote the book. But in those two sections, if you want to be Billy Wolters and you want to be a handicapper, I don't care what sport it is. I use the NFL [30:03] as a model, but this model is the same model for every sport, whether it be your betting on golf or your betting on the NASCAR, your betting on soccer or baseball, it's the same principle. That's the way they all work. So I put that in there and then for people who are betting any type of sport, but especially the NFL or college football, but the NFL, I put all those charts in there to explain to people because right now, I don't care what sites you go up on, Joe. A lot of these new places, the reason they're making the money they're making, is if you were to pull sports butters out there today, everyone thinks making a bet on a sporting event your land 11 to 10. That's the premise that we've all been taught that your land 11 to win 10. A lot of these bets today, and matter of fact, almost all, well not a lot of them, all of them, these we'll call them you know the teasers the parlays those bets some of those bets a guy's land a [31:08] dollar fifty and he doesn't even know it because there's no requirement to disclose the odds you're laying so they're not going to tell you but like these in game parlays and you're doing these three and 14 parlays and you're doing these teasers a lot of these places are charging a dollar fifty to a dollar you got no chance of winning. You got zero chance of winning. I couldn't win. I wouldn't even think about playing them. But the average person who's playing them, they don't know that. So because right now there's no requirement to disclose that to the customer. And we all want about a small amount of money, one large amount of money, right, Joe? Yeah. Okay. Well, you got a lot of people out there, they're making these bets, and they're laying $1.40, $1.50, and they don't know it. When you look at these publicly traded companies, you know, it's right out there in the public. You know, when they report their earnings, they're, you know, they're doing very well, but they all refer to these [32:08] Parleys and teasers. That's where they're making the majority their money I'm making them a they're not they're not making the majority their money on straight bets where people are 11 to 10 They're making on these proposition bets. Well, what I'm getting from you is that? To be a successful sports gambler requires an insane amount of dedication and research and understanding and You've got to be on it all the time and most people are just not that sophisticated when it comes to these things If they're betting using an app or something like that betting online, they're just doing it for fun They think they could win they got a feeling they want to bet their team They want to make the game more exciting. And so those people are basically like very under, they're very under researched, they're very, they don't have like the full grasp of understanding of the complexities of sports gambling because it's a lot more complex than I ever thought. When I was going over your stuff, I was like, oh my goodness, like this involves so much [33:04] time, so much time so much time and read this is not a simple thing is like oh I fall sports I think Kansas City is going to win it is not it's complicated very very complicated and to win at a level that you want at over your career and the numbers like what is the biggest bet you have replaced about four and a half million million on New Orleans to beat the Indianapolis Colts on a Super Bowl. That's the biggest bet I've ever placed. Did you win? I did. I won. I got lucky and I won it. You got lucky on that one? Yeah, I mean anytime you win, I mean I feel like I'm lucky. I mean Joe, the world's made up of a lot of different kind of people as we both know. But no, I feel like anytime I want to bet, I got lucky. I mean, because there's, you know, I want to bet. And the reason I had such a big bet is what I do, Joe, is I make a line on the game myself. My prediction of what I feel like the differential should be. [34:02] Independent of what the... Completely independent. I don't even look at her line when I make my line. Really? No. That's how I level shit. Well, that's all they, that's all. I'm doing the same thing they're doing. Right. I mean, believe me, the principles that I'm following and making my line are the same principles that the handicapper is making. But it cake, you know, one guy might put a little bit more flour in than the other guy does. And so that's how we end up with different, you know, lines, different numbers. So I make a line on each and every outcome of the sports, sports that I'm involved in. And you bettin' us on the individual players, their overall career, what age they are, how they've been playing this season, who the coaches, all the different factors, whether they've been playing this season, who the coaches, all the different factors, whether or not there's in-player disputes in between players. There's a lot of things to take into consideration. Again, I put it all in the book and you're right, there's a lot of different factors that go into that. Some are important others, but there's a lot [35:02] of factors. And what happens is the larger the differential between the number they make and my opinion, the larger bet I make. There has to be a minimum of a certain amount of separation or I won't make a bet. But the larger the differences between my opinion and their opinion, the larger bet I make. So I just give you a rough example. Let's say the NFL and let's say I would have to have a minimum of say a point and a half differential from the line they make from the line I make. A point and a half two points. Well that would, I would bet one unit, okay? That would be the smallest bet I would make. But for each half point, you would, if I made the line on a game six and they had an eight, I would bet one unit. If they made it eight and a half, I would bet two units. If they made it nine, I would bet three units. If they made it nine and a half, I would bet four units. made it ten. I would bet five units well the New Orleans game you asked me about which I couldn't believe is a Super Bowl game and [36:10] This type of year we never get this kind of differential But I had like a seven point differential between the line I made and the line they made they made in an apple seven and I thought the game should be pick them and When I saw the line I I couldn't believe it. I went back. I saw maybe I made a mistake here I went back redid it redid it not pick them So that's how I ended up with such a large bat when you go through some how much time are we talking like if you're placing a Four million dollar bet on a Super Bowl game. How much time are you researching? Well, but that time of the year. I mean, all of our research is done. I mean, this last game here. Okay, the only changes you're going to make from the last games that these two teams played are in a Super Bowl is, okay, are there any players injured that didn't, which you have to account for? [37:01] And you know, clearly, if they're playing on a different surface or something, maybe then, you know, then the teams normally do. It's very small. I mean, the second the game's over, we can have the line on the next game within six hours. It's not a problem or less. I mean, unless it involves, you know, some injury or something that, you know, may take us until we get some more clarity on that. But I'm going to know real close to where I'm at, frankly, as soon as the game is over almost within an hour or two. Now there's been some times over the years where referees, specifically in basketball games have been caught doing things, you know, calling penalties, trying to swing the game in favor of another team and they get caught for it and busted. How much do you think that goes on today? Like how much do you think like referees are bought off or maybe perhaps they're betting themselves? I don't think that exists at all, Joe. [38:00] Really? And if it does, it's very, very small. But it has been, right? These have happened in the past, but you know who uncovered each and every one of those? Gamlers. People betting sports and bookmakers. They're the ones that made law enforcement aware of these things, because at the end of the day, whether you're a casino or whether you're a better, the integrity of sports is the most important thing in the world to you. A good thing about what's going on today, there's probably more transparency and betting today than there ever has been. All of the legalized gambling is taking place. They have everyone's account information, they know everything you're doing. And the other thing about betting on SportsJail on likes, say Wall Street, it is a small market, much, much smaller market than Wall Street. So if you go out and you make a sizable bet in sports, the line is going to move and it's impossible to hide it. Okay? Now there's people such as myself and I'm not the only one, there's a lot [39:02] of people in the sports business. If they see a lot on the game move Half a point a point or whatever They know who calls that line to move 99% of the time. Okay. I give you an example The Arizona State situation that came up years ago I don't if you remember that one or not it was their basketball team and they were fixing games and then what happened there was a bunch of guys that came to Las Vegas and, uh, they bet on one of these games. The line moved six or seven points. I bet on the other side of it because, you know, uh, the line I make, and of course I had no idea that, you know, they were shaving points and I lost the bet. Well, they came back to town a little bit later, and they brought six, seven guys, and they were going to all the different sports books, and they were betting, and the line moved six or seven points again. Lines on games don't move six or seven points. Well, the second time I didn't bet, because, and sure enough, they won the game by like 20 again. [40:03] They came back the third time and by now I'm taping the games. I'm looking at the games. They came back the third time and they did the same thing. Well, uh, I called, uh, uh, Steve Dushar, who was the head of game and control, uh, for the game and control board, he was the, the law enforcement part of game and control and told him what was going on. And they dispatched some agents. They tried to get these people to talk to them. They left Las Vegas, went back to Arizona. And then later on, I think one of them got kind of caught up in a drug deal. And then it came out, they were fixing games. And there were a couple of players that were intentionally thrown off and they were fixing games. And that's how that scandal came out. You know, I guess I was exposed by gamblers by gamblers. And how did you know that something? How did you know it wasn't just luck? Well, I mean, Joe, look, this would be like tracking the elephant in the snow. [41:10] I mean, you got you got guys who no one's ever laid eyes on, and they come to Las Vegas, and they bet on a game, and they move at six or seven points. If you're a handicapper, or you know anything at all about betting in sports, if a line moves, it's in your lane a second or third point. You know, you better have a really strong opinion because they move this line for one reason. It's to make it a lot less appealing to the person betting on that team. So when somebody comes to town and they move a line six or seven points, no better in the world is going to do that. And in order to do that, they went to every sports book in town and they just, you know, they laid, you know, six, six and a half, seven, seven, eight, eight and a half, nine, nine, and a half, 10. Okay. Well, because they were new to betting. Okay. They knew they had, they had an edge because of what they were doing, but they didn't know anything about betting. As a result, you know, they created something that was easy for anyone to see. [42:09] I saw it again the first time. I didn't know the exact, you know, I didn't know exactly who was doing it. And I bet on the other side, of course, I lost my money. And of course, I came back the second time. I'd seen these things before and I didn't bet. And then of course we taped the game, we looked at it, it was pretty easy to see who was doing what they were doing. They came back the third time, did the same thing. Frankly, you know, to give you the, I mean these guys were trying to break in jails, what they were trying to do. Anybody, I mean they were, anybody would do what they were doing was just stupid. I mean anyone could see what they were doing. The only thing surprised me it took three games for someone to finally turn them in and I don't sports books I don't think I returned to man. I mean I called to show myself because again anything that involves integrity of sports they're affecting my business. If people get to where they [43:00] don't trust but in sports then the limits are going to go down and it's going to reduce my ability to be able to bet on sports. The other one, you know, with the referee, the NFL referee, Gamers knew about that eight months before he got busted by law enforcement. People quit betting on the games. Well, sure. I mean, it wasn't like- They just suspected that the calls were bad. No, well, no, what happened any time again Joe because the market's so small. Okay. Think about the New York stock exchange or think about Apple stock. You could buy 500 million dollars with Apple stock and and the price on Apple stock would barely move. Okay. And the price on Apple stock would barely move. Okay? On an NFL, on an NBA basketball game, if you were to bet $250,000 on an NFL basketball game, it would probably move a point and a half, two points. [44:01] So, and again, the people taking the bet, people such as myself and others, if a line moves on a game and it moves like that and, okay, I want to know who better on a game. If it's another handicapper or there's an injury out or there's something there that makes sense as to why that game moved, then, okay, I understand it. But if there's some mysterious person that's betting a lot of money on a game that hasn't been doing this for a period of time and then I'm looking at an outcome of a game that doesn't make sense if I tape it and and and I see you know something that's out of the ordinary about the way the game is being officiated or some players performance it this is this stuff is easy Joe to see and you're not dealing with exactly you're not dealing here with master criminals You're dealing with people that frankly aren't very smart and a number of them. They're not very smart To be doing what they're doing in the way they go about it. They're even you know about you know I don't remember the thing years ago with hot rod Williams. I mean there's the ones. What was that thing? [45:00] Well, it wasn't it was an NBA thing also But all the ones if you go back and you look at the last five sports deals, whatever they were, small or big, every one of them were uncovered like that. And so, you know, I did an interview on time was 60 minutes in 2011. And I was asked at the end of the interview which I had the most confidence in betting on sports or investing in stocks and my answer was I have a lot more confidence in betting on sports for the reason I pointed out. It's a much smaller market but as far as things being on the up and up I have a lot more confidence in that and I have way more confidence in that than I do the other. Well, obviously you know it well. Well, I not only know it well, but also if I didn't know it well, I know how small the market is. I know how transparent the market is. And if someone goes in to try to bet on sports and you're trying to fix a game, it's going [46:03] to be so obvious. It's going to be so obvious. It's so easy to detect and it's so easy to... And today it's even easier and the good thing about legalized sports betting is it's so transparent. Everybody who has an account, you take all of these young players that haven't... They haven't been... I'll call it school correctly. They haven't been... They haven't... Whether it be their teams or whomever, they haven't explained to them, you know, the repercussions about betting on sports if they're a professional athlete. We've had some here recently that, you know, basically these guys are kids, Joe. They're kids. They don't know any better. And someone should have sat down with them and explained to them the ramifications of what they were doing. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But we've had a few of them out there now. But you've seen how quick they catch them, because it's all transparent. They go in and make these bets. It doesn't take them any time at all to figure out who they are, if they're a football player, or whatever they're doing. And it's been brought to public's attention. So if it's that easy to catch them, somebody out there making large bets on something, moving the line substantially, and you don't know who this person is, and you're looking [47:10] at, and they do this more than one time or two times, and you're seeing an outcome of a game that doesn't make sense, it isn't going to take long to figure this out. Now, when you get to a situation like Pete Rose, that was a fascinating situation because this was at the time where gambling was illegal unless you're in Vegas. And you find out he might be betting on the team that he's coaching and he also might also be betting against his team. I've never heard anyone ever say that Pete Rose bet against his team. I've never heard anyone ever say that Pete Rose bet against his team. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I've never heard that allegation. I know he was accused of it. Right? Is that okay? You don't think so? No, I don't think so. I thought someone was saying... John Dowd, I think, actually investigated this for the baseball. [48:03] So he was always betting for his team? I think he did bet on his team, but I don't like everybody against his team. I'm not sure I've never heard that. What was the problem with him betting against his team, or betting for his team rather? That seems like that just would be a guy who has confidence in his team. Well, personally, I don't see a problem with it, but the people who are running baseball or whatever the sport is, I haven't thought it really out probably if I were on their side of it and really thought through all of the different pluses and minuses I may have a different opinion right off the shoulder. I really don't see a problem him betting on his team or anyone betting on their team although others do and so and I'm trying to think of a good reason as to why it would be a problem him betting on his team I really didn't thought about that close was he ever accused I don't think I mean I'm looking at [49:01] the like the espion outside the line story. They obtained documents There's no evidence that Rose was a player manager in 86 bet against his team No, they show a vivid snapshot on how extensive his betting life was that's he did make and So it could have been just unfair Accusations designed to taint his reputation even for no, I think he did bet on his team no against Yeah, well if anyone if anyone accused him of betting against his team, I think they're wrong, because I never heard that. And I don't even think, when they reported that Mr. Dowd issued on behalf of Major League Baseball, I don't think there was ever any allegations in there that he bet on his team. But it seems kind of crazy, wasn't he, he's removed from the hall of fame. Well, he never was in the hall of fame, but he, but it is consideration. He's, he's, he's never been voted in the hall of fame for that reason. 2022. He's bringing up a point where, uh, there's a manager or a player on the Rockies that signed an endorsement deal with Maxim Bet. [50:00] And he said like what he did was happening now. No And he said like what he did was happening now. No one would ever think anything right. Yeah Well, I don't know about that either because there was a there's young college player Who's now I think a pro who's betting on on his team and I don't I don't think the NFL or I don't think First of all, I don't think they I don't think they want you to bet on sports period, but I don't think, even betting on your own team, I don't think they want you to bet on your own team. Are you aware of the UFC betting scandal? No, sir, I'm not. So the UFC, there didn't used to be rules in terms of like, I could bet if I wanted to, anybody could bet on fights And what was going on was there was one trainer and the allegations were that this trainer was involved in an online Bedding group and he was letting these people in this online betting group know that one of the people that he was involved with was injured [51:01] and Pretty significant injury this guy winds up going out and fighting, loses in the first round, hurts his knee. Like throws a kick, blows his knee out, apparently his knee was already hurt. Then they find out that this guy had been doing this for quite a while or allegedly had been doing this for quite a while. And so then they pass this law now or pass a rule with the UFC that no one can gamble. But I would imagine that fighting is probably the most difficult thing to get right in terms of to figure out a line. Is that, did you do any gambling on boxing or MMA fights? I haven't done any gambling on MMA fights. I had fighters in the past. I had three boxers in Las Vegas. And we trained at Johnny Taco's gym. Okay, great gym. One of my best friends in the world, Billy Baxter, he had fighters at the same time. He had better fighters than I did record wise. He had Roger Mayweather who became- [52:01] Black Mamba. Yeah, that's exactly right. And Jesse Reed was our trainer. And making prices on boxing, Black Mamba. Yeah, that's exactly right. And Jesse Reed was our trainer and Making prices on boxing out. I didn't think was difficult at all MMA You know back to kind of what you're talking about there again Well the NFL You know you talk about transparency. I mean if a player is injured they have report that, that the team does the league that, so the public knows that. And you know, they have regular reporting requirements, and then like before the NFL games every Sunday, an hour and a half before the games, they have to come out with a final report. So, you know, for whatever reason, at boxing, I know when I had fighters that there wasn't a requirement to disclose that. Now, famously, Manny Pacquiao was injured going into the Floyd Mayweather fight. Yes, that's what I heard. And a lot of people were furious about that because a lot of money exchanged hands during [53:01] that fight. Yes, it did. Yes, it did. Yes it did. So the again not knowing as much as I would like to know before I make a comment on something my only thinking is is that you know a lot more about MMA fighting than I'll ever know. You and my friend Kevin Hawley the Would it make any sense to make that a requirement to disclose injuries? It would yeah, if you if you're dealing with gambling it would unfortunately though then you would give your fighter The other fighter the opponent a massive advantage if you know this guy's got a knee injury You're gonna target that knee if you know this guy's got a knee injury you're gonna target that knee if you know this guy's got a hand injury you know he can't punch right yeah there's there's certain things that would change every aspect of your strategy for a fight if you found out that a fighter was injured especially if there's something that would prevent them from grappling you would know they probably didn't do any grappling in camp and so you'd go with a [54:03] grappling heavy strategy just grab ahold of them quickly. Really force them to wrestle. If you know he's going to blown out knee and he can't really adjust on the feet or shoot for takedowns or even defend them well. Yeah. Yeah. You would, you would definitely change things. And fighters hide injuries all the time. I mean, a Dreckus Duplicey when he won against Robert Whitaker. He had a broken foot and you know He beat one of the top guys in the world with a broken foot And that's kind of crazy that fighters do that But that's the type of human being you're dealing with and they can win that way like it doesn't necessarily know just because you know That a guy's injured doesn't mean that that guy's gonna lose there's certain guys that they find a way to win no matter what right and There's certain guys that they find a way to win no matter what right and I would imagine that that What I would what the thing that would give me pause is scoring Judges scoring is horrible. It's the worst part of the sport. It's so bad. It's so bad that [55:02] maybe 10 to 20 percent of fights You'll have one car that's so off, you're like what the fuck was that guy watching? It happens all the time, as commentators we're just scratching our head, like how did he give it to the other guy? In what world? And I will go back and watch it again and see if I'm being biased, I'll watch it with the sound off, I'll just analyze all the positions and all the things that's happening, get damage done and control the octagon and push in the pace. I'll look at the volume, I'll look at the amount of strikes landed and then I'll be like, how? How the fuck did that guy see it for the other person? It doesn't make any sense. And I always wonder if someone's on the take. I always wonder. Because I know that there was a case in Vegas where there was a woman who had given out very questionable decisions, like multiple questionable decisions. And the last one was so egregious that she kind of just went away. But I've always wondered if those people were on the take. Because Don King famously was a sneaky dude [56:02] and did a lot of very, you know, very under the radar shit that was probably not good. And I would think that if you have a fighter and that fighter is working for you, you would definitely have relationships at the very least with these judges. So they would be more inclined to score for you. Maybe you take them on a vacation. Maybe you, you know, take them to dinner. Maybe you do whatever you can do to get inside their good graces. And then if it's like, eh, this guy or this guy, I'm going to go with this guy because I like Don King. Or, you know, Bob Aram, he does me well. So I'm going to lean towards that guy. That would be a real issue with me if I was gambling, particularly unboxing. Back when I got in, I was betting on unboxing before I had fighters, but after I had... When you say you had fighters, what do you mean by that? I had three fighters. So you had contracts with them? Oh, yeah, yeah. And what is the contract involved? Well, I was our manager. [57:01] Oh, okay. Yeah, and actually three young men I brought up from Louisville. And that was a connection my wife and I were both from Kentucky originally. And Billy, I love boxing. I've always loved fighting. When I used to go to all the fights, it's the Silver Slipper. We, you know, it's just, I enjoyed it a lot. So you're going to the smaller regional cards? Oh, yeah, Las Vegas. I mean, you know, I remember at the Hacienda, which is the Mandalay Bay today, that's where the ESPN televised fights, that's where they began in Las Vegas. And I remember I had a fighter, he was a really good fighter. He'd won the National Golden Clubs like five, six times as an amateur fighter. He'd beat Aaron Pryor, his name was Terry Silver. And he was a lightweight and really, really, really good amateur. And I remember in order to get his first fight on television there, we had to agree to with [58:09] Bruce Trampler and Bob Aram, we had to agree to multiple contracts if he won the fight. That's the only way to get him on the card. That sounds like a Bob Aram move. Yeah, but back to what you're talking about those days in the 80s, I mean, you had Duke Durham, Duke Durham who was Don King's guy in Las Vegas and then of course you had Don and you had Bruce Tamp Trapper that was Bob Aram's guy. And you know, I mean you look at the various organizations that did the ratings of the fighters and you look at some of the fighters, I mean, if they were signed with the right guy, I mean, they'd be ranked in the top 10. And a lot of them couldn't bust a grape. And then you'd have guys that didn't, that weren't signed or hadn't agreed to those contracts, [59:01] and they couldn't get rated, they couldn't get a fight. So you're right, there was a tremendous amount of politics in it and that's the primary reason I got out of it. And but I still love boxing, I love fighting, I don't understand MMA as nearly as well as you do. I can help you out. I'm sure you could. And like I said, I have a friend Kevin Aole, I think you probably know him very well. He's a friend Kevin. I only I think you probably know Kevin very well. He's a good friend Yeah, he is a good guy and he's been covering MMA forever. Yes. He has and And so I'm gonna I'm gonna make it make it my business to learn more about MMA and it's complicated Yeah, I'm sure it is but a guy like you that knows as much as you know about sports you could get into it I'm sure I enjoy it. It's a complicated thing to you could get into it. I'm sure I'd enjoy it. It's a complicated thing to watch and pick fights. It's a complicated thing to gamble on because I think there's, you have to have an understanding of a person's physical ability independent of watching them in fights. You have to be able to assess, [1:00:02] like I can look at a fighter, like a guy like Ilya Toporya who just won the world title against Volkanovsky when I would watch him fight and train even though he was against lesser competition than Volkanovsky I was seeing the speed of his strikes the accuracy the good the defense how good the defense was his durability I was seeing this advantage I was like man even though this guy is, he's an underdog, he's fighting the most dominant featherweight of all time, I bet this guy's got some big advantages. He's just got big advantages that I see as a fighter, as a person who knows how to fight, and I'm watching the way he moves, I'm like, he moves better. He's more precise, He's more accurate. It's complicated. And then you have to take into account, you know How many times the guys been fighting that year? How banged up he is because just like quarterbacks on football days You're gonna fight injured. Everybody fights. Oh, yeah, there's always something. There's always a neck thing or a back thing or a hand thing No fighter fights a hundred percent very very very rarely. I should say right but [1:01:06] fighter fights 100% very very very rarely I should say right but this the again the thing that drives me the most crazy is the decisions because if I was a gambler and I laid a big bet on Ilya Toporya and for some reason it went five rounds and they give it to Volkanovsky and it's a terrible decision there's not a more robbed feeling in the world. That's a dirty feeling because it's so subjective as opposed to scoring. If you're watching a basketball game, if the Lakers score more, they win. It's real simple. The ball goes in the net more, you win. With fighting, you got three people. Some of them don't know how to fight at all, and they're the ones who are deciding who wins, who doesn't win fights. Well, I'll be back in the 80s, that way, a lot of those controversial decisions in boxing. Oh, yeah. That's another reason that I got out of boxing. Yeah, there's some bad ones even in the 2000s. [1:02:03] Manny Pacquiao and Tim Bradley, that was one where it was like, what the fuck? And I think that lady that I was talking about was involved in that one as well. There's been quite a few of them. And when someone is an incredibly popular fighter, like a Canelo Alvarez or something like that, where there's so much money invested in this fighter, and there's so much money potentially in future matchups, that if they lose, boy, that could switch the amount of money you make by an extraordinary amount. But if they get away with a robbery, just a little bit of a robbery, over six months, a year, two years, people forget. They forget. Well, you got to factor that into your handicapping. Yeah. You have to factor in possible robberies. Or they're getting the best of it, right? Yeah, that's crazy. You have to factor that in how did you how would you like? So when you were gambling on boxing, what's the biggest bet that you ever made on a fight? Oh, I never made any real large personal fights What's a not large? Hackler fought sugar Ray at Caesar's I think I bet about 200,000 [1:03:04] I think I bet about 200,000 on a fight. Who'd you bet on? I bet on Sugar Ray. Did you really? I think you got lucky. I did get lucky. I think Hagger won that fight. Well, my man Billy Baxter, he likes Sugar Ray quite a bit and there was a guy named Herbie Hoops at that time. It was a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, but... You know, the Hagger one is a weird one because he loses that fight and then goes and becomes a superstar in Italy Yeah, where's the mob from Billy? Where's the mob from I? Mean if I had to guess and watch that fight when I watch that fight. It's almost like Hacker wasn't trying to take him out It was almost man. I wish he was alive today, and he's one of my all-time favorite fighters I have to say I grew up in Boston and he was a tough man he embodied discipline yes he did he was the man and he was what probably before Terrence Crawford one of the best switch hitters that's ever played in the game or ever fought he was incredible he was so good at being able to switch Southpaw Orthodox he fought [1:04:02] equally well from both sides and he confused the shit out of people because of that That's a great skill. That's something Terence Crawford has so well such a good skill the ability to switch sides It's just so baffling and if you've ever sparred before if you used to sparring orthodox people And then you sparred a southpaw your whole brain has to do all these extra calculations And if you're not accustomed to sparring with just sparring with Southpaw, forget about fighting them, it screws everything up in your head. You have to readjust and unless you've gone through a whole camp at Southpaw, that's one thing that people are very reluctant to do. Like say if a fighter is scheduled to fight an Orthodox fighter and then two weeks out that guy gets injured and then another guy steps in to take his place. You find out this guy's a South Pollock. Oh, shit. It gets such a different strategy. Everything changes with your movement. You don't want to lead into the power hand. So instead of circling to the left, now you're circling to the right. Like there's a lot going on. Well, same thing goes with South Pole quarterbacks. [1:05:02] I would imagine. Yeah, big difference. Oh, yeah, balls coming from a totally different angle Yeah, and the tendencies are different too. There's something else. I don't I'm not a left-handed person But I have a theory about left-handed people. I think they just get better at things quicker I think there's something about left-handed people. They see the way everybody's doing everything backwards And so they have to see the way they do it and then do it their way, and I think there's some sort of an advantage in that. Okay, well, I hadn't thought that one out yet, but. Some of the best pool players are left handed. There's a lot of killer left handed pool players. There's a lot of killer left handed fighters. I know a lot of people that are left handed, they just seem to have, there's like an extra thing that they have that Orthodox people don't have. I hadn't thought about that one. You don't take that into consideration when you're... I hadn't, but I'm going to take a look at it. So what was the biggest fight that you ever put on? Probably that one. I mean, I... How much was it? The one that meant the most to me... How much was the Haggler fight? A couple hundred grand, probably. But the one that absolutely meant the most to me is [1:06:08] Terry Silver this kid I told you I got the fight at At we were at the Hacienda which is now Mandalay Bay and it was it was a six-round fight It was his first six-rounder and he's fighting some kid Out of LA, you know Jimmy Montoya. No, the Jimmy Montoya has been training fighters in LA for the zillion years and he's stable back in those days he had like 120 fighters. Okay. And he would bring guys over whether it be the Silver Slipper or the Showboat or the Haas Enda and a lot of his fighters were on the card and he brought over the Hispanic kid and this kid's fighting Terry and you looked at the guy's record and you know he, I think he was like maybe one, three, lost two and he had a draw. And I'm thinking, well this guy's got like zero chance. [1:07:02] So this is back when I'm drinking some too. So we go to the fight, my wife Susan and I, and Billy's working a spit bucket and fight starts and I'm betting everybody I can bet in the crowd. I'm laying five to one, ten to one, twenty to one up. I think I'm just stealing, you know. I mean, I think Terry's probably gonna knock him out in the first round. Well, Terry had gotten him a girlfriend in the meantime and so he goes out there in the first round. He probably hit this guy 80 times, the guy never laid a glove on him. This kid, Terry Silver had a really, really good left jab as good as any you've ever seen in your life. But he didn't have a lot of power. And the amateur ranks, like I said, he won like five national golden gloves, but when he turned pro, he really didn't have a real good point. So he came out in the second round and he drops these gloves and he's showing off, and this kid hit him, and when he hit him, his mouthpiece went out, and then he's got the [1:08:03] whaling on his head, and'm thinking I'm upset I'm watching this I can't believe it and he you know he kind of knocked himself so to speak well Terry's you know but he's had enough fights he probably had his anamodor probably 50-60 fights so he got out of the round so they come out in the third round and he's still ain't shaking it completely off and the guy goes a whaling on him again and now you, he's bleeding and he's got a gash over one eye. Blood's coming out of his mouth. So the fourth round comes out, he's still just wearing him out. My wife says, look, you got to stop this fight. So I run down to Billy. I said, Billy, I said, stop the fight. And I said, by the way, I need to borrow 50,000. He looked at me and he said, let's let him go a little longer. So Terry gets out of the round. [1:09:00] He comes out in the fifth round, and the fight completely turns around. And he starts wait him He starts he get you know, he's he starts wearing his other guys head out and he wins the fifth round I mean, it's not even close so they come out for the sixth round and this was only a six round fight Joe but it's one of the best fights I've ever seen in my life and I mean they stood toe-to-toe in the sixth round and they fought and Bell rings Well, I got a draw I mean they stood toe to toe in the sixth round and they fought and bell rings Well, I got a draw And and it but it was one of the best fights I've ever seen it was a six-round fight And I got a draw and the reason I got a draw is I had a kid was a real classy fighter And I got to tell you the I got to tell you the ending of this story I'm in prison. I'm in Pensacola, and I get letters, and I got a letter, and I hadn't seen Terry Silver since then. When I gave up the fighters, I gave Terry to somebody, I gave Tyrone Moore to Billy, and I gave Dana Ross to the Billy. I'm in prison, fast forward, 2018, 19. [1:10:04] I wish I'd brought the letter, I'll send you a copy of the letter. And I'll let Erson Terry say over. And he said, Billy, said, you know, I remember he was talking about the fight. And he said, you know, and he said, you know, I remember you tried to stop the fight. He said, I could not lose that fight for you and Miss Susan. And he went on to talk about that and talked about our relationship. And anyway, he sent me this letter, and I mean, about 40 years later, I get this letter in present from this kid. And it's all about that night, that fight at the Aussie and how he wasn't gonna lose that fight and he wasn't gonna allow him to lose that fight and he wasn't going to lie and lose himself that fight because of Susan and me and it was touching. Wow. Yeah. Does that vote, huh? Yeah. And I need to borrow a few square feet. Yeah, well, Billy would have stopped the fight but the problem was I said I need to borrow $50,000. [1:11:01] He said, he has to, he said, let's let him go a little longer. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Wow. So what did you wind up going to jail for? I went to jail for insider trading. The, uh, see Joe, uh, publicly people know I've been on sports and they know I'm, you know, pretty good at that. And, uh, the, uh, but I do a lot of other things Joe since the late 80s You know, I've owned golf courses. I had seven golf courses in Las Vegas, which you know I built from scratch four of them and the other three, but I've owned an operating golf courses since the late 80s I bet golf courses in Chicago and in Mexico Arizona And but I had seven in Las Vegas. You know, when I got out of school, I went into the automobile business. I was in it 16 years. I got out, but I'm in the automobile business too. So I had 22 car dealerships at one time. So I had the golf courses, car dealerships, battle and sports, but I also invest in stocks. [1:12:09] I invest my own money, not someone else's money. And, you know, actually I probably have a bigger presence with that than I do betting sports because it's a bigger market. You can bet more. Well, I bought a stock. I'd owned it for 10 years. I'd gotten involved, there was an SEC investigation, the initial investigation was into myself and Carl Icahn and it involved a stock trade that I did with that that he'd owned stock in and that investigation went three and a half years, it went nowhere because there was nothing there, there was no wrong doing it all. And then there was a stock out-owned for 10 years, a stock called Dean Foods. And they'd been involved in a material transaction. They'd spun off a part of their company. And I owned a large amount of this stock. And the SEC was looking at anyone who bought and sold stock around a certain period of [1:13:04] time, and I was one of those people. And it was at the end of the other investigation, and because of I know the variety who I was, I'd been indicted six times before, and I'd go in the court and beat them five times. That started in 1983. So you were already a marked man. Well yeah, Mark Man was the ladies. What had you been indicted for? I've been indicted for betting on sports. Joe stop and try to get your head around this one. In 1990 in Las Vegas, Nevada, the gaming capital of the world, the FBI took myself and my wife out of our home and handcuffs and my wife then leg arms on her and we were arrested and we were charged with being a part of a criminal conspiracy conspiring to bet on sports, bet on sports. [1:14:01] Now here we are 2024. Betting on sports is legal in the majority of the United States. In 2023 in Las Vegas, a circle hotel, I was inducted into the Sports Gamers Hall of Fame for Bedding on Sports. So about in 1990 in Las Vegas, Nevada, I was indicted along with my wife in charge with betting on sports. So yeah, I'd gone to court a number of times. I'd beat them a number of times. Everyone the indictments were centered around my sports betting. That's what they were centered around. Nothing more than less. But I, you know, I was a sports better. So was sports betting illegal? What were the laws? Absolutely it wasn't illegal. No. No, not illegal at all. I was charged with being part of a criminal conspiracy conspiring to bet on sports, betting people in other states. It was ridiculous. I went to court, my wife and I, we resonerated. [1:15:02] So was it because it was legal in Vegas but not legal in other states? They tried to make it that way, but when we went to court and the facts came out, we were exonerated in all the charges. There was one charge, the vote was 11 to 1 to acquit us, and come to find out that one guy voted against us hadn't told the truth in his interview to be on a jury. He was a former police officer. And so anyway, they chose not to indict us. They dropped a case that was over with. But we exonerated all the charges, except the one charge. And we, they were voted 11-1 to acquit us on that. And then I was indicted three times after that for the same thing, betting on sports. It was thrown out of court every time. And then, so anyway, but what happens, what I realized through all this, Joe, is the higher profile you have, the bigger target you become, especially if you're someone who's beat them a number of times over a period of years, there becomes a vendetta. [1:16:00] You're the guy that everybody wants to bring down. And then I'm involved in New York originally with a guy with Carl Icon, one of the most successful investors in the history of the world. And that investigation went nowhere because there was nothing there. And then this issue came up with Dean Foods and bottom line was there was a lot of motivation to get me to indict me and that's exactly what happened. The four people that were five people involved in my case, three prosecutors, a supervisor, and the former US attorney, four of them as soon as my case was over within a matter of months. Hell, press conferences and their claim to fame was they had sent me to prison. Three of them have gone into private practice today. They're sole business as they represent people with white collar crimes in the Southern District of New York. They bring them back over with the people that they worked with for years and they cut deals. The fourth one ran for the US Congress in New York. [1:17:00] He's now a United States congressman. And the guy who was a former US attorney. He is now working for a law firm representing people with white collar crimes So they go they went from what they were doing to these very High paying jobs making a lot of money. The other fellow is now in politics. He's a he's a congressman from New York in politics. He's a he's a congressman from New York. So there's a lot of motivation for people on that side to send high profile people to prison. That's kind of how they get to the next run of the letter. So you know, the reason I wrote this book, Joe, is I started, I began to write this book in 2003 with a guy in Las Vegas. His name was Jack Sheehan. Good friend, good writer, good guy. And we worked on it for a while and I decided I'm not writing any book. Okay. Well, fast forward 2017. I walked into federal prison in Pensacola, Florida when I was 71 years old with a five [1:18:04] year sentence, which could have easily been a life sentence. And while I was in prison, my daughter committed suicide. So I had to write this book. I had to write it for a number of reasons. I wanted to share my childhood, that you and I went over a little bit, I want to help people because I don't care who you are, what part you're at in your life, we all have issues that we're dealing with, so I wanted to share my childhood and then I wanted to share the addictions that I had. When I was younger, I had an issue with alcohol, I got addicted to budding sports and then later on in my life as I became more mature and I was able to overcome those things, you know, I got in business, I've been successful with that, and you know, I've become a fairly successful [1:19:03] sports fighter. So, and then I went to prison, which I had to share that experience, because when I went into prison, there was only one positive thing that came out of that, Joe. I mentored around two dozen men. And some of these men have been in prison 20, 25 years. And it really opened my eyes. You know every time there was a visitation where I was at prison I had someone who visited me. 60% of the people in prison never get a visit but these men that I mentored, not a one I wanted to go back to prison but I spent a lot of one-on-one time with them and the closer they would get to release, you know, the more apprehensive they became. I mean tough guys, you know, I mean tough guys, you know, ripped guys had been in prison 20, 25 years. They would become very emotional. They didn't want to go back to prison, but they knew they were probably going to come back to [1:20:02] prison because they had no way to earn a living. The only thing they'd learned in prison was how to become a better criminal. And yeah, they were going to get out while they were in halfway house. They were going to get a job someplace, making minimum wage. But as soon as that was over, they had to do something to feed their families. And they, you know, they didn't have no job skills set. So when I got out of prison, I knew I had to try to do something about that. Okay, and So I got involved with Harry Reid when I recently got out of prison former senator from Nevada former Majority leader And I got involved with Harry because clearly Democrats are in power and new and I wanted to put vocational schools in the federal prisons and I was willing to put up some of my money initially get it started and Unfortunately senator repat he passed away before we were able to get anything done Well a former sheriff in in Las Vegas bill young [1:21:01] Told me said billy said the best reentry program in the United States, it's in Las Vegas. He said it's called Hope for Prisoners. I said, I never heard of it. He said, well, I want you to meet this guy that runs it. So there's a guy who runs it, his name is John Ponder, who's been in prison himself twice. He started his program in 2012, Joe. The recidivism rate is only 5%. So you know, being a leery guy, being a gambler, you know there's a lot of people looking for your money these days, we all know that. But I met with John Ponder and became really impressed with him. But the more I learned about him and the program and what he's done, I got super impressed. And so my wife got and I got more involved. We made some financial assistance available and they were able to add to some of the things they were doing as far as you know teaching and [1:22:01] stuff. This is an 18 month program these people are in by the way. And And the first thing they do, almost every one of these people have an issue with drugs. First thing they do is get them off of drugs. Second thing they do, they get them right with their families. You got to be right with your family. And that's the reason this program works so good. And every month we have a graduation there. The graduation, Joe, was held at Metropolitan Police Headquarters in downtown Las Vegas. There's usually 50 to 75 police officers there. Come to find out there's 200 police officers in Las Vegas Metro that are mentoring these people now. A typical graduation, you've got the mayor there. You've got the district attorney there. You've got the mayor there, you've got the district attorney there, you've got a judge there, you've got the head of corrections for Nevada, sometimes the governor's there, fees in town. And usually you've got about a thousand people there, friends, and you've got a lot of mentors in the Las Vegas area that come. They come up [1:23:01] and they receive their diplomas. And the second that that's over there's a job fair and they all have jobs before they leave. And then in in these graduations they'll invariably always have someone who's been out of the program for a year or two years or five years. They'll come up and speak and they'll talk about their life and how it changed their life. So uh The current Governor we have he was a former sheriff that was involved in his program. His name is Joe Lombardo. And so Joe recognized how important it is for these people to have a job skill set when they come out of prison also. So we spoke to him and the head of corrections in Nevada and they and we now are putting vocational schools in Nevada presence and they're going to be able to get certified of being an electrician, a plumber, air-conditioned repair, truck driver and when we decided to do this, of course it takes money, there's another family in [1:24:03] Las Vegas, the Ingolstadt family, and so they agreed to put up $2 million. Susan and I agreed to put up $2 million, and the state agreed to put up a million. So the night they made this announcement, I was asked to come and speak, and I got there, and there was another speaker, her name was Alice Johnson. Do you know Alice Johnson? No. Alice Johnson is the lady that I was in prison at the time but President Trump pardoned her and he pardoned her because her case got brought to his attention by Kim Kardashian and so Alice Johnson got up and spoke and I was born away with her and I was born away with her speech. I think she was from Mississippi, I think, or Louisiana wanted to. And she'd gone to prison for being, quote, a drug mule. And if I understood it correctly, and I think I did, I think her role as a drug mule was she was conveying messages between the guy selling drugs and the guy supplying drugs, [1:25:05] and she was strictly on the phone conveying messages between the guy selling drugs and the guy supplying drugs, and she was strictly on the phone conveying messages. Never touched a drug, never sold a drug. First time offense, they gave her life in prison with no parole. First time offense. So she was in prison, I think, about 22 years and had become a model person in prison. I think she'd become a minister minister and she got pardoned. But that went into either all or most of the prisons in the United States that night. So we followed it up. We went out to Indian Springs State Prison in Nevada and we walked in the gymnasium. I was there with John Ponder and myself. And there's, I don't know, five, six hundred, eight hundred inmates there. And we originally walked in, we started talking to them. You kind of see, you know, they were kind of disinterested, some were listening, but most weren't. But when John got up and he got to [1:26:02] talking about what we were going to do, you could see they started to get more interested. And then when I got up there, you know, I said, well, you guys are probably trying to figure out what this old grad of dude here's to talk to you about today. So I kind of explained to them while I was there what my background was, the fact that I'd been in prison, and what we were going to do with the vocational schools. Well, Joe, when you got finished, you could hear a pen drop and we started doing Q&A and it seems like the questions went on forever. Finally, the correctional officers said, you know, they have to get back and we had to end the Q&A. But now we have vocational schools in Nevada prisons in Nevada and it's just to me it's it's not only those men that I remembered that I mentored okay when they go home a lot of them have families you know they got four or five children okay so those children if that father goes home and he has a job as an electrician, a plumber, air [1:27:05] condition repair, their father is no longer a criminal. Their father is an electrician. He's a plumber. And I think there is a much greater chance that that child will follow in those footsteps and possibly that of crime, a life of crime. So anyway, long story. That's a beautiful thing to be proud of. Well, I am life of crime. So anyway, long story, but- That's a beautiful thing to be proud of. Well, I am proud of it. And there were a number of reasons I wrote this book. I mean, I see the so-called whatever number you pick out, the 50 million new people that are bending sports. And I see the way that sports is being marketed, the way it's being pitched to these people. And I can see, you know, it's almost a sense that a large, large part of them are going to become addicted. Okay? If I had been pitched on sports the way they were being pitched on sports the day with a phone, I mean, I got addicted without it. I could only imagine what it would have been with it. [1:28:00] And then on top of it, there's no law whatsoever now that they have to disclose anything. So people are making bets on sports. They have no idea what the odds are, or they're laying or getting or anything else. There's no disclosure whatsoever. And then on top of that, they don't even understand the basics of sports betting. So I wanted to put that in the book. And by the way, Joe, you didn't ask me this. 100% of any money that comes out of this book goes to charity. It goes to Opportunity Village in Las Vegas which is an organization that works with intellectually challenged people. It goes to Hope for Prisoners and it goes to an organization in Louisville, Kentucky called Cedar Lake Lodge which works with intellectually challenged people. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's really great that you're doing that, man. It really is. This case that they got you on insider trading, what was the allegation? Would they say that you had done? Well, they said that a guy who was on the board at the time had passed me along non-public information, and I had taken that non-public information and I had [1:29:09] used it to trade on the stock, take advantage, unfair advantage, illegal advantage, and made money, and that was the allegation. And that's what I was convicted of when I went to prison. Now, you know, I could give you the background and the details of it, Joe, and I think even as, even the life you led, I think you'd find it fairly interesting. I owned this stock for 10 years, and this fellow who was on the board of directors, his name was Tom Davis. I had a reason originally met this guy in Dallas, Texas in like 2000. And I was trying to raise money. I was trying to buy American Gulf and National Gulf properties. He was running Donson, Lufkin, and Generette in Dallas at the time, which was an investment bank. And I went there to try to raise the money [1:30:03] to buy these entities. And I wasn't, I didn't raise any money through him but I hit it off with him. I liked the guy a lot he played golf and we knew some other people he had a home in La Jolla at the time and so we became friends. 2002 Donaldson Lufkin and Jenerette got sold out, and he started his own private investment firm. And then, you know, he would call us on deals in Las Vegas, and we invested in some of the deals he called us on, some of the deals we didn't invest in. This guy was a very prominent guy in Dallas. He owned part of the Dallas Stars, he owned part of the Texas Rangers. He was a member of Preston Trail Country Club. When he was in La Jolla, I played golf with him. I played in a member guest with him one time at La Jolla Country Club. I had a lot of respect for this guy. Every time I was around this guy, he was the most buttoned up guy that you could ever imagine. And I didn't realize it at the time and I don't [1:31:06] think most people around him realized it. But I think he ended up with a real issue with alcohol and it came out in court and looked like he ended up with some sort of uncontrollable issue I think with women too. And I think he lost all of his money gambling. And then what happened after he lost all of his money gambling, he was on board of directors of a charity in Dallas and he'd actually embezzled some money from them to pay some of his gambling debts. Clearly, I was totally unaware of any of this. I don't like anyone, and most people, I don't like anyone in Texas even know about it, especially the people that deem foods. What happened is deem foods, when I got involved with it early on, they were made up of like three different divisions. [1:32:01] They had just what we call it a regular milk division, which was the majority of their business, the majority of their revenue. Then they had an organic division called White Wave, and then they had another division that primarily sold products to institutions, say like McDonald's or Long Shelf type products. Well, during the years, people quit drinking a lot less milk. We call it fluid milk. And as a result, the fluid milk business was in decline. The organic business was growing leaps and bounds, you know, soy milk, oat milk, different types of, those types of different milks. Well, the stock traded at a depressed price because the majority of their revenue came from fluid milk, just regular old milk. But the other parts of their business, they were growing substantially. [1:33:00] And that was really the play with the stock. Now, the federal government, they set the price of raw milk every month. That's publicized. So that's what the farmer gets for his milk when he sells it to someone who's in the milk business. So I bought in this stock and I realized pretty quick that I thought it was like, you know, J&J, I thought it was something that didn't have a lot of volatility to it. Well, I realized there was a lot more volatility to it than I realized pretty quick that I thought it was like J&J. I thought it was something that didn't have a lot of volatility to it. Well, I realized there was a lot more volatility to it than I realized because of the price of milk, the price of petroleum products, because Dean Foods had a huge fleet of trucks for transportation that were all running on diesel fuel, and then the cartons were made out of oil. And there were a lot of things that had a material influence on how they were going to do as a company. Well in 2010, Dean Foods came out and publicly announced that they were looking at spending [1:34:01] off White Wave, the organic division. They hired a company to come in and do an assessment and came back and said, well, the time it wasn't right for them to do it, but it was something they would certainly consider in the future if they felt like it was in the best interest of the company. In 2000, I sold all of my stock, and 2011, to the very end of 2011, I bought 58,900 shares of that stock from JPMorgan. The only reason I bought the stock, for me it was a very, very small amount of stock, a very small investment. The only reason I bought the stock was JPMorgan was their lead bank. I knew if I ever tried to talk to that analyst about Dean Foods and he wasn't a vatal, he was in a blackout period, maybe there was something going on, you know. Because I knew they were going to spend this company off eventually. Not only did I know what everyone else thought, it wasn't a matter of if, it was just a matter [1:35:00] of when. So you fast forward to May of 12. That month, Deutsche Bank had come out with a report and they had predicted that White Wave was going to be spun off. Well, they had an earnings report that month in May and I had put a limited order in to buy the stock. Do you know what a limited order is? No. Well, it's like making an offer on the house, okay. A limited order on stock, let's say the stock is trading at $10. You call your broker up and you say, okay Joe, I want to buy so many shares of Dean Food stock but I'm not paying any more than $10. If it goes past 10, I don't want any. But anything you can buy for 10 or less, I want to buy this number of shares of stock. So I put a limited order in that day to buy that stock and I didn't get it bought. I got half the stock bought because the price had gone up. Well, the next day they reported earnings and they also announced that they were back considering to spend off white wave stock. [1:36:02] Stock went up about a dollar and 20 cents. I bought another 750,000 shares of stock and paid the additional $1.20. I didn't sell a share. That was in May. In June, in Biny's stock, in July, there was a severe drought in the United States. Corn prices went through the ceiling. And when corn prices went up, you know, the price of milk is going to go up because the farmers got a feed. He has milk with corn, right? And then on top of that, what happened when the corn prices went way up, the Dean Food stock price went way down. And I had a loss on the stock at that time of, I had a paper loss of, I don't know, $3, $4, $5 million. Well, when he did that, I went back in and I bought another, say, million-halves shares of the stock, which was consistent with what I've done [1:37:00] with every stock I've ever owned almost. If I buy a stock, price down I'm gonna buy more of that stock to average a price out Especially if I feel like the stock is really under way it and I and the only reason Dean food stock had gone down Was because of this drought and the corn prices had gone up both those things were temporary Droughts don't last forever and I knew as soon as it as a drought normalized itself The stock would go back up regardless But on top of that Dean foods had announced that they were considering spending off white wave stock. This was a second time publicly that they had done this. Okay. Cause in 2010 they did it. They did a study. Now this is 2012. So in August, when they reported earnings, they confirm we're going to spend off white wave stock stock goes up about $4.50 a share. I didn't sell a share, Joe. I bought another million shares. I paid an additional $4.50 a share. Now, from that August until the following February the next year, [1:38:00] every time Dean Foodstock would go down, I would buy more of it, okay? So now we get to February of 2013 and I own five million three hundred thousand shares of stock Well, I wanted to buy a home and Palm Desert So I bought a home at a place called big spray of big Horn Country Club I sold a million shares of the stock to pay for the house, and I kept 4,300,000 shares. Two weeks later, Dean Foods reported earnings, and the earnings were bad. The stock went down $2. That was one of the charges of insider trading they charged me with, Joe. They said that I had prior knowledge that the earnings were going to be bad. I avoided a $2 million loss on the million shares of stock that I sold, but I lost 8.6 million on the stock I kept. So does that make sense to you if you're trading on insider trading? I would only sell the million shares of it. I mean why wouldn't I sell it all? That was one of the charges. But anyway, fast forward. How did they try to prove that you had insider information? Well, I'm going to get around to that. I'm a slow storyteller, but I'm thorough. [1:39:08] I had 31 months to think about this in prison, Joe. So anyway, fast forward to the following August, which was a year after they announced publicly they were going to do this. I kept my $4,300,000 shares and then the following August when they finally spun it off is when I sold the balance of my stock. So they did the investigation. Now what happens anytime there's a material transaction with the public and traded company, the SEC, they'll send out a list of people who bought or sold significant amounts of stock to the board of directors and they'll ask them, do you know this person? And when they did, Mr. Davis, he identified me and rightfully so that who I was, what our relationship was. So the SEC, they were doing their investigation. I mean, after the case in New York with Mr. Icon and I went away, there was nothing there, [1:40:04] this Dean Foods thing came up. I didn't realize it at the time, but Tom Davis had gotten involved in some pretty bad things. The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, they leaked two stories and all the details in the book about the leaked stories, 100% of it. And when they leaked these stories, and one of the stories they put Tom Davis' name in the book. So Tom Davis and his lawyer, a guy named Milshammer, they contact the SEC and they say, look, we want to come and give a voluntary interview. So they go up, they give a voluntary interview and they say, look, we want to come and give a voluntary interview. So they go up, they give a voluntary interview and they say, look, they denied emphatically that they'd ever give me any insider information. Told them under no circumstances that they ever give me any insider information. [1:41:02] Well, the SEC, but more importantly, the FBI, continued to investigate Tom Davis. They learned that he had embezzled this money from a better women's charity in Dallas. They learned that he had had a frozen tax return file because what happened when he took this money out of this charity, when he put the money back in the charity, it creates an entry, you know, it creates an entry. You know, withdrawing an entry. Well, the guy who normally filed a taxes for the charity had told him, we're going to have to show this withdrawal in this entry. He said, oh no, no, you can't do that. Because he didn't want other people on the board of directors to know what he had done. So he gets someone else to file a return, which is fraudulent. He doesn't disclose this. And then come to find out, he had given insider information to someone else in Dallas, another man there. So they continued to investigate him, and I think after he and his lawyer learned that they had him for embezzlement, they had him [1:42:08] for tax fraud, and they believed they had him for insider trading with this other man there that he had actually given insider information to. Two years after he'd given his interview, he decided that he did want to make a deal. So his lawyer had represented Mark Cuban, in his case in Dallas when Mark Cuban had an SEC case. In that case his lawyer had hired a lawyer out of New York, a guy named Chris Clark. And Chris Clark was the lawyer that recently represented President Biden that had to withdraw from the case. I'm sorry, he didn't represent President Biden. I'll take that back. He represented President Biden's son. But he had to withdraw himself from the case for some reason, sometime back. That's the same Chris Clark. Well, anyway, Miltsheimer had called us Chris Clark and said, look, you know, we gave an interview two years ago, [1:43:02] but things have, you know, evidently things have changed. They felt like they were under a threat of him getting some major jail time because he embezzled the money, filed a fraudulent tax return, and he had given us other guys that information. So Chris Clark, there's another young lawyer who had just joined their firm, and this young lawyer was named Tom, his name was Neftalis and he, I think Benjamin Neftalis and he had just worked at the Southern District in New York and he'd been gone for a short period of time and he'd actually worked in the, I think worked with the same prosecutors investigating this case. So Tom Davis and Milshimer, they ended up retaining Chris Clark and this Benjamin Neftalis to represent them. So they go up there and decide they're going to make a deal with the government. In return, the government, they're not going to, you know, they're not going to push for [1:44:01] him to spend any time in prison. So he, he, do you know what a proffer is? No. Okay. I didn't know what one was either until this case came up. What a proffer is, Joe, if you meet with prosecutors or you meet with the FBI and you decide you're going to tell them something about someone else. That's called a proffer. You're going to tell them everything you know. It has to be truthful. And the reason for a proffer is, is once you tell them, then they'll decide, okay, if you're willing, this is what we're willing to do for you. Well, Davis went to have these proffer sessions with the FBI and the prosecutors and pertaining to me. If you were going to have a proffer session and you were going to tell someone about someone else, how many proffer sessions do you think it would take for you to tell someone that [1:45:02] story? And let's say the proffer sessions lasted two hours each, two and a half hours each. How long do you think he would tell for you to explain to someone, you know, how long do you think it may take? I don't know. It took him 29 of them. He had 29 proper sessions, Joe. 60 hours. Yeah, to get his story straight about supposedly How he gave me inside information and in court he said I never asked him for inside information one time He he quote voluntarily gave it to me inside information as if I would know what he was giving me was inside information He And in court he testified he didn't think he was going to do one day in jail. Bottom line was, embezzlement of maturity, filing a fraudulent tax return, giving another man insider information. All those things, he wasn't going to do one day in jail for any of them. [1:46:01] And he was the only witness against me, Joe. Now, my lawyers caught him in a minimum of 25 lives. He had, I mean, he came out in court, I think on one business trip, he called 22 escort services. I mean, they go, well, I mean, I mean, the guy, the guy was... He was off the rails. No, the guy that I described to you that I met in 2000 2002 The guy that used to own part of the Dallas Stars in the Texas Rangers and the guy that was this I mean heat gone from that to this And drugs involved. I don't know a lot alcohols involved. I know that But give you an idea how wacky this guy was, he pleaded guilty to a bunch of felons. It wouldn't mean he would have pleaded guilty to a hundred of them because they told him he was convinced he wasn't going to do a day in jail. And they were going after you. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so anyway, after he does this, giving out to you how wacky this guy was, after he does this, he comes to Las Vegas and he throws a party at the wind hotel celebrating his deal. He's cut with a government. [1:47:06] He lost another 50,000 in there. Gambling. That's how I walked out this. So anyway, so that was our only witness against me, Joe. They had no other witnesses against me. They had 60 days of wiretaps on me. How many of you think they played in court? Zero. Zero. That's right. The lead FBI agent in the case who was in charge of the entire squad of the white collar crime investigation unit in New York His name was David Chavez When these stories were leaked in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal our lawyers filed a Complaint with the court accusing called a complaint with the court accusing the FBI and the Southern District of leaking disinformation to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. They came back and denied it, said this never happened, said we were on a fishing expedition, that's what Preet Biharov said, we were on a fishing expedition. But the judge, to their surprise, I think he said something like, well these quotes [1:48:06] are almost identical to the ones that were made of the grandeur. He orders an evidentiary hearing, which completely shocked them because normally the judges are just a rubber stamp form up there and they just take their word. We didn't have anything to do with this. There's no point in having a hearing. Well, this judge, he did. He said, well, we need to have an evidentiary hearing. So a couple of days before the hearing, they sent a letter over to the judge. It's a letter that they call it in camera. What that means is it's a private letter that no one else can see. My lawyer's never got a copy of it, but they sent this letter over to this judge. They said, Judge, you know what? We did do this. Said, David Chavez, the head of the white collar community for the FBI in New York, he's the one who did it. And said, yeah, there were five other FBI agents who were aware of it, who were in the [1:49:01] meetings with him, but they really didn't have anything to do with it. It was just him, but he did it and we want to fess up. But we want you to keep this totally private. We don't want anyone to know anything about this. It'll hurt our reputation. And we recommend that you hold him in contempt of court. Well, our lawyers had found out that there was a letter, but they found out we weren't, they weren't telling us what was in it. So, you know, my lawyers were, you know, they got, they filed a bunch of motions and for this judge to make this letter public. Well, finally, the judge did make the letter public and they'll copy the letters in my book. There were approximately 2,000 emails, Joe. They turned over five or six is what they turned over. Those public emails are in my book too. But I'm going to give you an example of what those emails contain. There's a guy who is a journalist for the New York Times. He's [1:50:01] still there. His name is Protus and his name is Ben Protus. And if you look up all the stories he does, it's pretty easy to see. You know, he writes stories predominantly about cases that involve the Southern District in New York. Well, in the one email that they turned over involving Ben Protus, Ben Protus had written a story about our case, and he was forced to do a redaction, a correction. And when he was forced to do the correction, he was upset about this because the story had been given to him by this guy, David Chavez. So he calls this Chavez up and he said, look, he said, the story you gave me, I had to do this redaction and he's complaining to the guy. The guy says, look, you're on my radar screen now and says, so is the New York Times. It's an FBI agent threatening this guy. So this guy approached us, he calls up this guy's old bell, who's the number two in the US Attorney's Office. He's right under Pre-Bahar. And he tells him a whole story. He said, you know, I did a story. I had to go into a correction. [1:51:06] He said, I call this FBI agent. He threatened me. He threatened me and he threatened the New York Times. This guy's old bell, he sends an email out to the rest of people in the U.S. Attorney's Office or a number of people in the U.S. Attorney's Office. And he tells him, he recants exactly what happened. This guy, Protus, calls him up. That email's in the book too. So there were five of those emails. There was another email in there where they identify a lady who writes for the Wall Street Journal. Her name is Susan Polium. She's still there. She still writes for them. If you look at stuff she writes, it's very similar to Ben Protis first. They're all kind of government kind of stories Chavez says he has a relationship with her And about about was you know like my case if she were to call you up and interview you [1:52:00] things that she learned about People he was investigating she would pass it along to him too. Well, the emails they turned over, that's in my book also. So what happened is when these two stories got leaked in the Wall Street Journal in the New York Times, at the same, within seconds of each other, Tom Davis' name, wasn't in the first one, my name was in there, Phil Mickelson's name was in there, Carl Icahn's name was in there. But they continued to leak the stories in there and finally they got Davis' name in there which when his name came in there, he gets Milshiver, goes into Nisot two years later after they found out all these other things. He decides he is going to, he will be a witness for them in return. He doesn't think he's going to do a day in jail. And he hires this lawyer up there who had worked with them for eight years of prosecutors. It still takes him 29 meetings for him to get his story straight. So I go to court, he's the only witness against me. Okay, they don't play one wire tap. [1:53:03] But when I jury went back, Joe, and and by the way the FBI agent Chavez was suspended from the FBI The judge in our case referred his case to the office of public integrity in Worcester DC And he recommended be charged with two felonies criminal contempt criminal contempt obstruction of justice Do you know what might happen to Mr. Chavez? He was allowed to retire, Joe, with pay, and he's never been prosecuted for anything. So when the jury went back and they convicted me, they didn't know that there were 60 days of war attempts. They didn't know that the lead FBI agent for three and a half years who had been doing this case had been thrown out of the FBI and had been described by the judge doing their case. He said he should be charged with two fellows. They didn't know any of that. Now, in retrospect, like I said, 31 months to think about this, [1:54:05] Like I said, 31 months to think about this. Our case went on for a little over three weeks. We're in the winter in New York. Weather's really bad. They stopped a trial 15, 20 times. A jury, they were sleeping. One guy snored and said, well, judge, stop the trial. They'd already completely lost interest. In the cases about insider trading. I mean, a lot of people don't understand stock trading, Joe. And they got cross-sided up there with the lawyers showing them graphs and all these type things. And the one guy on the jury had said, he said, the next week he was going to have to leave. He couldn't stay on the jury any longer. He's going to go on a trip. So after the prosecution that wrapped her case up, I had to make a decision whether I was going to testify or not. My lawyer said, look, said nobody can believe this guy, Tom Davis. And he said, there's no way they can convict you if they can't believe Tom Davis. [1:55:01] And we had 23 witnesses prepared to testify. And we talked about it and the lawyer said it's strictly your decision. You make, you know, we said we're just telling you we don't think that there's any way they can evict you if you don't testify. So we ended up putting five witnesses on. We put on three stock workers that I did business with, a controller from our company, and a pilot who had flown me. He was on there for one reason. There was an allegation I was in Texas at a certain time and I wasn't, and we proved I wasn't. Anyway, we rested our case. Big mistake. I should have testified. We should have put the other people on regardless of whether the jury was bored or whether they wasn't or whether the guy was going to leave or whether he wasn't. And the other thing that was another reason that I got convicted and I'll go into my grave believing this, Phil Mickelson was supposed to come and testify. He told me he would. [1:56:07] Phil Mickelson got involved in this case. It was really another screwy deal. And I wrote about it in a book, and I only wrote about it in a book because there was no way to tell the story unless I explained my relationship with him. But he bought stock of this company too. And when the SEC attempted to interview him, he took the Fifth Amendment. And when I learned he took the Fifth Amendment, I said, why the hell are you doing this? Tell the truth. I didn't realize it, but he was involved in another investigation, a money laundering investigation that had been going on for a year that had nothing to do with me. And he was afraid to testify with the SEC because he was concerned they would ask him questions about this Monday-London case. Now he had already given interviews to the FBI, and he didn't fatically deny that I'd ever given him any inside information. How do I know that? I got a copy of the interviews. That's another thing, Joe. [1:57:01] If someone does an interview with the FBI and they tell them something that ends up getting you in trouble or you end up getting indicted for that, you never get to see any of that as part of discovery. But if you tell them something that basically proves a guy's innocent, you get indicted. They have to give you a copy of that. It's called Brady material. Well, I got to copy the interviews. I know exactly what he told FBI. And the same thing he told me he told them. And, well, the prosecutors weren't about to call him because they knew what he was going to say. He told me he would come and testify. In the eleventh hour, he changes his mind says his lawyers told him not to come and testify. Well, these stories that got leaked in the paper early on with him, myself and Carl Icahn, everybody in the world had read these stories about Phil Mickelson, myself, etc. Everybody read that Phil Mickelson had given a million bucks back, he'd made the stock [1:58:01] trade. Well, if you're don't know anything about this case and you see someone who's being investigated for insider trading, two people, you see one guy give a million dollars back, there's only two conclusions you can come to. Either he's innocent, he gave a million bucks back, or he bought his way out, or the two. But regardless, it makes the other guy look guilty as hell, the guy who supposedly gave him inside information. Because why in the hell would a guy give a million dollars back on the stock trade if he didn't do something wrong where he wouldn't buy his way out? That's what the average guy thinks, right? That's what I would think. Well, what they didn't realize was he gave this money back. There's money laundering case that he was involved in. He miraculously gets dropped out of that. The guy that he wanted the money to went to federal prison too. Yeah. So, oh, that's in the book. That's the reason I had to write the book, Joe. I mean, the only reason he's in my book, he's in two chapters of 28. I couldn't have written a book and told this story without writing my relationship in there with him. [1:59:06] The only thing I wrote in there was what I had to write in there. I mean, there are a lot of things that I didn't put in there and I'm not going to put in there. I only put the stuff in there that involved our betting relationship, our friendship, and this issue with the SEC. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything else involved in Helmholtz personal life, it's not in the book, and I would have never put it in the book. So that's the component about myself and him and about the Southern District, about my indictment. And the only way I could have told a story is write a book. Or I make a tan when I decided to write this book. Armick Etienne, when I decided to write this book, I have a fellow who works with me, advises me a lot of things. A guy who's got a lot of expertise in these areas, his name is Glenn Punting. And Glenn recommended Armick Etienne to me. [2:00:01] And Armon worked with 60 Minutes for eight years. He was a correspondent there. He was with CBS Sports, I think, for like 12 years. He's a highly, highly well-known, extremely respected journalist. He'd done 12 books. He won 12 Emmy Awards. He did the book on Tiger Woods. So I wanted Arman involved in this because I had to tell this story about my prosecution, about the Southern District of New York. I had to tell the story about the involvement of the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. But I had to have someone who could write that story who was a former investigative reporter. And Arman is one of the absolute best in the world. But someone who no one would question their credibility. And Armin and Glenn Bunny and our team did a magnificent job in helping me tell that part of the story. You know, the rest of the book, you know, it's pretty much, it's in my words. I mean, I wrote the vast majority of the other. [2:01:02] But I work with a lot of great people. In the book, I work, again, Armick Cotan. I can't say enough good things about Armand. But Armand, in explaining this story along with Glenn Bunting, of the Southern District, you'd have to understand Glenn Bunting's background too. Here are two people who worked at the highest levels of journalism, but they've also worked with government and prosecutors. I mean, they worked and they know this business inside and out and and and you could ask either one of them. They were all they frankly they were in disbelief of what the facts were until they confirm what the facts were and and Armin I think I've I'm quoting Armin correctly said I've never seen anything like this. It sounds so dirty. Yeah, well it was What is that like the giving up 31 months of your life or something so gross? What would Joe? 31 months of your life when you're 71 years old Which very easy could have been a life sentence. Yeah [2:02:03] It was it was rough. I mean I left my wife at the time. We'd been married this is our 48th year of marriage, but I left her say goodbye and I walked into a federal prison and I was like... You didn't know if you were ever getting out. I didn't know I was ever getting out because again, my age. Right. Also, it's fucking dangerous. Yeah, it is dangerous dangerous and I was in what the, this is another Miss Nomers Joe. You know and this is one of the biggest Miss Nomers there is and this is the reason I love you and I love your show because you get a chance here to tell your story. You know we're not in sound bites and we're not you know it's it's not some BS orchestrated story out there, you know the I went to Pensacola prison and I'd hired a prison consultant and I wanted to I was looking for someplace I could go to that my wife could communicate you know not communicate could commute to reasonably and [2:03:01] While I was in prison. She was in Kentucky the majority of the time, so it wasn't a bad commute for her. But they also had a program there, it's called RDAP, it's alcohol, if you've had issues with alcohol in a past and you qualify for this program you go through it, you get a year from your sentence, so I thought I could possibly qualify for that. Well I go there and there have been a story written about this prison like in 2008. I think it was written by either Barbara Walters or someone like Barbara. And they describe this prison as like a country club and as swimming pools and the people could play golf. And anyway, I'm going to tell you the place that I went to. Okay. I don't know what it's like in 2008, but I can tell you what it was like in 2017 and October the 10th when I walked in there. I was in a dorm, I was in a building that was built in 1960. And this building, this is where Naval Airmen used to be housed. [2:04:04] I was in a room 18 by 22 with nine other prisoners on bunk beds. They have black mold all over the walls. There's no heat whatsoever in this building. I'm in Pensacola, Florida. I'm not in Miami. I'm in a concrete block building. It's got chillers that run 24-7. So in the winter there, I mean, you can't imagine how cold you would get in there. There's 200 men on this floor. We had restroom on each side of the entrance. But you got 10 men in an 18 by 22 room, and you got black mold over the walls, and you got no heat. The food in this place was just horrible. There were prisoners that came down who had been in multiple levels of federal prisons. Everyone of them said it was the worst food they had ever seen in any place. Medical care there was, it was pitiful. [2:05:03] One of the doctors, his nickname was Dr. Death. I mean, there was a guy there that they diagnosed with hemorrhoids, and he died of colon cancer. I mean, I can tell you another story. It's funny, but it's not funny to give you an idea how bad the medical care was. There was a guy who went in and he had a place on his face. They told him come back, they were going to take it off. It's like in February. Guy goes back in, this doctor's death. He takes a big thing off the other side of his face, the wrong side. He gets up and the guy, he wishes him Merry Christmas on the way out. Now we're in the middle of February. The guy put a big hole in the complete wrong side of his face, left the other face. That was one of the doctors that was there. So I got the flu when I first went in there. And I'm really sick. I mean, really, really sick. [2:06:02] And I got so sick I've been bed like three or four days. Well I went down immediately to try to get something for the flu. They told me to drink more water and to take aspirin. And I could get the aspirin out of the commissary. Two days later I go down and started to have problems with my lungs. I got chewed out for coming back down. Again, they gave me nothing. Luckily for me there were some guys that were inside the prison that gave me some things that could help me. Hadn't been for that, I'm not sure. I don't know what the outcome of that would have been. It could have been bad because I was bedridden for six, seven days. And I saw that on multiple occasions. So the good thing about the place was there were no bars. You could walk around it at certain know, at certain times with total freedom. There was a track. They had a place you could do weights. The visitation there was great until COVID came along. And so yet you had plenty of opportunities to have visits. [2:07:01] There weren't bars. You had a track. That was all good. But I can tell you, the medical care there, the food, and the conditions themselves were horrible. I mean, they were horrible. And the people who came down from Lowell and Meetham Security Presidents, they said they were much better than the prisons they came from than they were there. Those conditions were. So that's the reason, along with the fact, you know, when I got out, I had to do something about this. They're just, I mean, it was just, but that's a story that isn't being told. It's like, I saw some guy the other day, got sentenced to Pensacola, and I saw the story that some lazy journalist just rewrote something they read that somebody else put in there two or three or four years ago that isn't accurate and they describe this place as being some kind of country club. You think it's a country club, partner? You go down there and check in and you go over and get you some of those boots that you're forced to wear. There are seconds there are made in China. I got a pair of boots when I got there. The second day I had lost a toenail. Luckily for me, at the time, there was a doctor there, [2:08:05] and I went and saw this doctor, and he'd give me some shoes that had softer soles. From what I understand, they've eliminated those today. You have to wear the boots that they give you there. Now, they're steel-toed boots, and they're not even good. It was like I say, the majority of them don't even fit the people. How do I know that, I worked in Laundrie myself and I wasn't one over their issue in that stuff and then I went to the head of the place and I said, look these things are horrible, people are coming back, their feet are bleeding and everything else. Finally, they changed them out and they got some that did fit better. But I mean, it just, anyway, it is what it is. But look, present isn't supposed to be, it's supposed to be a punishment to a certain degree and it's supposed to be a detriment And there's no question about that and you're not supposed to go to some country club But you should be able to go to someplace where you know, I sleep next to black mold and if you do have a medical issue You know and you truly do have the flu and it's diagnosed by the flu by them that you get something to treat the flu [2:09:03] Just the fact that you gave up 31 months of your life, the fact you had to go to that place, and that now you know all the actual details of the case, you know all the stuff that was withheld, that's gotta be a tough pill to swallow. I mean, that would make me very bitter. Joe, when I got out of federal prison, and give me an idea, I was still under home confinement. I filed a federal lawsuit in New York. I sued the former head of the FBI. I sued Parit Bahara, the former U.S. attorney. I sued David Chavez. I sued Daniel Goldman, who's now the congressman up there. And I sued, or five of my suit, oh, Osobel, the guy who was the second to come in up there and I sued, or five of my suit, oh, Osobel, the guy who was the second to come in up there, the U.S. Attorney's Office. I'm gonna give you an idea. I filed a federal lawsuit up there and the lawsuit speaks for themselves and I laid out the allegations of all the things that these people did from my perspective. Do you [2:10:01] know that not one media organization in New York even reported the lawsuit? New York Times, New York Posts, the New Yorker, not one of those news organizations even reported the fact that I had filed a suit against these people we're talking about. That's what bothers me. Forget about, you know, I mean, if somebody files, I don't care what kind of suit is or what the allegations are, I mean, it's news. I filed this suit. It's in federal court for eight months. Their only answer was the statute of limitations ran out. After eight months, they judged through it out. I would have to file this federal lawsuit while I was in federal prison under federal custody in order for me to file it within the time of the statute of limitations. But the fact that it didn't even get reported that I filed a suit and made these allegations, that's what puts a chill on me. [2:11:00] How can that happen? Because it's dirty. Yep. They all have relationships. How did those lawsuits, all the lawsuits that you filed, how did they pan out? Well, the one I filed against them got threw out because the Statue of Implementation is right. And that was really the only suit that I filed. There's the only suit I could file. So there's no recourse? No, there's no recourse. Which is unbelievable. Yeah, well, another thing, Joe, after I was convicted, once you're convicted in a federal system, there's a department, I forget what the name of it is, but they work for the courts. You gonna meet, this lady's name was Rebecca Dawson, I won't forget her name. You go up, you spend a day, they interview you, they get all your background, and they go back, check your background out extensively. And then they turn that over to the judge with a recommendation, their recommendation. [2:12:02] Okay, after they had interviewed me, they had thoroughly investigated my background. The recommendation of the judge was to give me a year and a day and a $10 million fine. The judge gave me five years and I paid in fines and restitution $45 million. On top of that show, I was ordered to pay another $9 million for Tom Davis' legal fees. The guy who testified against me. Dean Foods, for some unexplainable reason, first part of it I understand, the second part I don't understand at all. When he originally got his attorney, they were paying his legal fees because he was on a board of directors. That part I understand. Okay, but after he decided to become a government witness and he pled guilty to a bunch of things and one of them [2:13:00] was, you know, passed all the insider information, they continued to pay his legal fees, even after that. So his legal fees were like $9 million. So they got a law firm, came forward, filed a thing, and the judge ordered me and Tom Davis to reimburse Dean Foods for $9 million. Because this guy, he's not going to give them any money. I paid the entire $ million dollars, right? So the Supreme Court comes along later on and they rule that a portion of those fees they weren't entitled to. So they have to refund me the portion of those fees. What do you think happened there? Dean Foose goes bankrupt. I got stiff on them too. I never got a nick on my money. Glad you can laugh. Well, Joe, you know, you got two choices of this. I wanted to tell the story. You know, look, I'm not the only guy who's been through something similar to this. A lot of people go through this and get out of prison and they say, look, man, you know, I just want it over with, with you know I don't want to have a reoccurring problem with so-and-so and [2:14:08] so-and-so who wants to piss off powerful people right okay I couldn't I'm not cut out of that cloth but I'm I actually did this more for other people than I did for myself there's so many people out there, Joe, that don't have the resources, they don't have the resiliency that I do, they don't have the support that I do, and this is going on today, partner, and this is going to continue to go on until the people who make the laws do something about this. Okay? Look, the vast, vast majority of the people in law enforcement laws do something about this. Okay? Look, the vast, vast majority of the people in law enforcement are great people. And I agree with that too. The problem that you've got there, and I see this over and over, and is there are some bad ones. Like in any profession, you have some bad ones, okay? [2:15:02] The problem I see there is when they don't, the bad ones they have, the good ones start to blind eye to it. They don't do anything about it. Because they don't want trouble. Yeah, and I give you an example in my case. The guy that worked with this guy Chavez, he blew the whistle on him because of what he was doing. Prior to me being indicted or anything else, we learned this through our discovery. The guy blew the whistle, him inside the FBI. That guy got transferred to some other part of the United States when they promoted Chavez. Yeah, yeah. 30. Yeah. But again, I get it. I mean, I've had people are very close to me when I decided to write this book and when I decided to sue those people in New York. And, you know, aren't you worried about this? Aren't you worried? I said, look, I'm not worried about nothing. You know, at the end of the day, I can't live my life like that. I mean, look, I'm not doing anything illegal. [2:16:02] I'm not doing anything unethical. I'm you know, but does that mean that someone can't target me for something? Oh, they target me for it. I mean We again, that's that's the other problem. I mean when so this guy Chavez, right? Okay, they'll I'm to retire he gets paid he doesn't get prosecuted. Okay, what kind of, what can I do with Chavez? I can't do anything with Chavez. I can't show him, I can't do anything. That's crazy. That is crazy. It really is crazy. Oh, that's crazy. You know, I've worked with Josh Dubin who used to be a part of the Innocence Project and now he's doing some things on his own and it's all about releasing people from jail that have been unrightly, unjustly prosecuted and you hear about these cases. All the time, partner. It's insane. It's insane. So dirty. [2:17:00] Well, the publisher that did my book, Simon and Schuster, the editor there, we were talking one day and we were talking about the book and the books, it's done very, very well and we're proud of that. But the book is, everybody would kind of think, well the book's written about this guy as a professional handicapper, people want to know about that, they want to know about his interest in life there. Well what they've, what's actually come back, you know, I think people care, I think the popularity of the book is more tied to the human interest side of it than anything else. And a guy went on to say, he said, Billy, you know what the perfect story is? I said no. He said, well the perfect story is, is when, when a story is out there, it's complete silence. He said, in your case, your story involves the FBI, involves the New York Times, it involves the Wall Street Journal, it involves Phil Mickelson. There's not one of these people who have refuted one word you've said in this book. [2:18:00] I hadn't thought about that. And they haven't because it's all factual, it's all factual, it's all true. And there's, there's no grounds to refute anything I said in the book. Is that the most corrupt thing that you've ever, I mean, your guy's been involved in gambling your whole life, which people think of as a very shady business, dangerous, you're involved with all sorts of unscrupulous characters is that the most dirty thing you've ever been involved with not even close no Yeah, not it's not even remotely close. Yes, it is. Yeah Wow. Yeah Undoubtedly Undoubtedly which is crazy because you're guys. I've you've had your life threatened And I read that you got you were in a trunk of a car one point time. What was all that about? It was the early eighties, Joe, before I moved to Las Vegas. I had a nightclub in Loyville that was called Butch Cassidy's. It was a country music joint. You had to fight your way in, fight your way out. [2:19:04] And anyway, it was the day after the Super Bowl and everybody I owed I paid and of course most people will owe me, they hadn't come by yet. But we had some popular band there and I forgot what the door charge was, five bucks, ten bucks, whatever it was. They had a pocket full of money. It looked like a lot of money but it was like four thousand bucks but it looked like forty. So I leave the joint it's like four o'clock in the morning I drive home and I'm living in a condo and I pull up in front of the condo I didn't have a garage and I pull up from the condo and I got out of the car all I was two guys with ski mask on they jumped out they were hitting down below the next car. One of them had a double barrel shotgun, the other one had a .45. They stuck a shotgun next to my ribs, .45 next to my head, and they robbed me. And so, and the guys got the shotgun, the old shotgun was jumping up and down, I said, [2:20:03] man, just calm down here. I said, everything's cool here. I'm trying to cool him down, see? What was so funny? I just got back from Vegas, Joe, and I didn't tell this story in the book, but I get a chance to tell it here. And I used to play a lot of poker out there. At the Golden Nugget, there was a guy there that sold watches, his name was Sam Angel and he sold these knockoff watches. I mean they look like they're authentic as they could be. You could buy Rolex from him at the time for like 35 bucks. And I had this Rolex watch. It was a knockoff. It wasn't real but man they look real. Well anyway they took my money but they didn't touch that Rolex watch so I mean it clearly was an inside job. So they took me back to the trunk of the car and they said they opened the trunk of the car They told me to get in I first bought as a no-pun. I'm not getting the truck of this car And they said look you get this truck in this car One or two ways. They do you gonna get on your owner? You're gonna fall in So anyway, I got in the truck of the car. They closed the truck of the car [2:21:05] So you your man gets a race and I figure, well, they pull out, they're going to empty that double barrel shotgun on me. So I'm scrambling around. I got the tire loose and got behind it, you know, the spare tire, the car goes by, I breathe the sigh of relief. They're gone. All at once, I realize I'm in the trunk of this car. And this wasn't back when they had a deal where you could open the trunk of the car Right, and it was a Lincoln and I got panicking. I got thing. I'm a smother this in truck of this car So I got a tire tool and I tried to get the trunk open You know you're dwindling. I wasn't that strong guy, but they're drilling I've bent this tire tool half and that truck wouldn't go anywhere. Well, finally, I got to go on through the back seat. There's some holes in the back seat where they got speakers and stuff. I finally dug through there and punched a hole in the back seat of the car and I'm screaming. Well, I never did wake my wife up, but I woke up the next door neighbor. So he goes over and wakes my wife up. [2:22:00] So Susan comes out. She figures, you know, I come on the joint, I'm drunk in the back of the car, right? Anyway she comes out, she hears me in the back seat, finally she opens the trunk, gets me out. But no, I'm 99% sure I know who did it. But anyway, it was a memorable experience. Because your whole life has been a series of memorable experiences, sir. Yeah, you're right. One thing about it, Joe, I got my money's worth. If it weren't all in tomorrow, I'd have to get shortchanged. Yeah. I mean, you've got a great book out, and you've got wild stories, and you seem to have your peace of mind. Oh, I do. Which is amazing. Considering what you've gone through, especially with the trial, what they did to you, it's amazing that you're so relaxed and so calm and so at peace and that speaks to your character. Jill, my oldest son, when he was seven years old, was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor. [2:23:02] He was given 30 days to live and that changed my life. I was a young guy at the time, gone all the time as I wrote about in the book and completely focused on making money. I went through that and it changed my life. As a result of that, I got involved with working with intellectually challenged people. I got introduced to an organization in Las Vegas called Opportunity Village, and it's strictly an organization that works with intellectually challenged people. And that's been one of the most fulfilling things that's ever happened to me. So you know, it's every negative thing that's ever happened to me in my life, everyone, something positive has came out of it. And that involving my son, Scott, who the grace of God is still alive today, he defied [2:24:01] all odds. But that changed my life. It made a lot better man out of me. Yeah. That's awesome. Billy, tell everybody the title of the book where they can get it. And is there an audio book available? There is. Did you read it? Unfortunately, I read it. Joe, you left the... Oh, perfect. You'll have to listen to some recipe voice. I want you to read it. It's your story. I'd like it to be in your voice. Well, the publisher trapped me. The books called Gamble are seekers from a life at risk, but back to the audiobook part of it, the publisher trapped me. He said, would you try to do this? He said, most people can't do it. And of course that's all they had to do is tell me that. And so I had my partial knee replacement. So I go in this studio a couple weeks later. I got earphones unlike we have now. I got a producer. I got my knee all propped up in the chair with ice on it. And I'm doing the audio portion of this book. You've probably done a number of them. [2:25:01] But the part of the book that I wrote, the part of the book that's in my words, I had no problem with at all. The part of the book in there that others wrote and there were words used that I don't use every day, sometimes I'd have to repeat those paragraphs two, three, four times. The second day, it took me 40 days, 40 hours to do this thing. The publisher, she started laughing. She said it's so obvious, you know, you would never use certain word. But it was an experience. I'll never forget it. I'm glad I did do it. But Simon Schuster is right. There's very few people probably will do it because it's not an easy thing to do. No, it's not an easy thing to do. But that sounds like your whole life. Yes, sir. Well, listen, Billy, I appreciate your time no it's not an easy thing to do but that sounds like your whole life yes sir well listen Billy I appreciate your time appreciate you coming in here and uh... appreciate you write your book and uh... I'm glad you did I really am I'm glad I got a chance to sit down and talk to you well thank you thank you for having me I really appreciate it and I have nothing but the utmost respect to you and what you do