Toad Venom and DMT

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Hamilton Morris

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Hamilton Morris is the creator and host of the Vice TV documentary series "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia," now in its third season.

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Psychedelics

If life wasn't real it'd be the craziest psychedelic trip ever - Joe Rogan

Joe talks DMT

Joe ''your brain produces DMT during REM sleep'' Rogan

Transcript

Like so many things that Terrence McKenna said, it's both true and untrue. I think it's untrue in a literal sense, but very true in a poetic sense, because the historical cultural context of a drug is part of what you bring to that drug experience. The molecule does not contain information. The ketamine molecule does not bring an experience to you. It's something that is generated in your brain by your consciousness. If you have a new substance that has no cultural associations, then maybe it was like that. You don't have expectations. You don't have expectations. That's a big part of it, isn't it? It's a huge part of it. Yeah. I made a piece in the new season of my show about 5-MEO DMT containing toad venom. There's a big controversy in the toad venom community, which believe it or not is a community. They are purists. Are they friends with the opia files? Oh, definitely not. No, they don't like the opia files. What does the venom community think? They think that this venom has some spiritual component derived from its association with the toad that makes it better than synthetic 5-MEO DMT. Now, I've analyzed several samples of toad venom before 5-MEO DMT was made illegal in the United States. In terms of what you find if you inject it into a mass spectrometer, 5-MEO DMT is the only psychedelic that's present. In some samples, there might be trace quantities of another psychedelic called buphotenin, but it's a minuscule amount of a less potent molecule. Predominantly you have 5-MEO DMT, which is likely the strongest naturally occurring serotonergic psychedelic. For conservation purposes, it's necessary that people stop milking toads because it's become too popular. Mike Tyson's talking about it all the time. It sounds ridiculous. Mike Tyson could have an effect on conservation, but if a celebrity says they like something, that can have a tangible effect on the environment. I know people who have toads for that very reason because Mike Tyson talked about those toads. Now they have toads and they milk these toads. Oh, yeah. Me too. I talked to a billionaire who flew a private jet full of toads to Greece to create a private toad sanctuary. Wow. I saw photos of it. Wow. How many toads did he got? The photos didn't look like that many. It didn't look like a jet full. 5-MEO DMT does not strike me as something that you'd want to do a lot. It's so terrifying. That's probably the most terrifying experience I've ever had on psychedelics because I cease to exist. Like it's the one drug where I feel like when I took it, I wasn't there anymore. I was gone until I came back. Like I felt like I didn't have thoughts. I knew I was experiencing the 5-MEO DMT realm or whatever it was. But I didn't. There was no context in terms of I didn't realize I'm on my couch sitting at home. Like I was gone. I was gone. There's no visuals. It was just this white sort of pixelated grayish white gone world. And it was terrifying because it felt like death. It was the one thing that felt the most like, oh my God, now I'm not here anymore. But coming back from it, I think it was very valuable. As I was returning, I remember thinking so much about the bullshit way in which I talk. I remember thinking that. Like God, so much of the way I would communicate was not just me trying to get my thoughts across, but me trying to say things in a way that would be impressive or in a way that would be flowery or try to make it look like I was more intelligent than I was. But I remember remembering that really clearly. Like, I gotta clean up the way I talk. I'm full of shit. I'm full of shit. Thinking that as I was trying to figure out how I was going to describe this experience, I was realizing as I was thinking, God, I gotta figure out how to describe this. Boy, I talk like I'm full of shit. So there was value in that. But I did it a few times. I think I did it three times. But it was terrifying every time. Terrifying. Like while you're gone, like while you slip away. I remember just thinking like, whoa, this is not good. This is not good. Like you feel like, oh my God, I fucked up. Like I really died. I really, I really stopped being here. And it also makes you think like maybe this is going to the light. Maybe this is what they talk about when they talk about going to the light when you die. Like maybe you're having this kind of experience because it's really disturbing. But then pretty peaceful when it's over. Like I felt pretty good when it came back. But the concept of giving away all of my control of reality like that. For some reason, NNDMT doesn't scare me as much. It's a totally different drug. Yeah. Experientially, chemically. It's, you know, psilocin is closer to DMT than 5-pimio DMT is. Mushrooms are closer chemically speaking. Yeah. And yeah, I think that it defies description in a different way than other psychedelic experiences do with something like DMT. It's difficult to describe because there is such an abundance of imagery and thoughts and associations that it's extremely difficult to communicate that to someone. With 5-pimio DMT, there's nothing. And that's also difficult to communicate. Yeah. That you white out and there is an absence of everything completely. Yeah. Do you find it terrifying? I have found it terrifying, yes. Yeah. I had a very profound experience with it in 2017 and I have no real desire to use it again. Yeah, that's my thought too. It's like I'm not going back there. I'll go back to NNDMT. I'll go back to that. Oh, me too. Because it's just a different drug entirely. And I think that DMT can be integrated into a normal life much more easily than 5-pimio DMT. Actually, I credit DMT with sort of, I talked about the sort of COVID denial that I had at the beginning of the pandemic where I was, you know, I can't stop making my TV show. We're all going to get it anyway. We can't just stop working. We can't shut down the world. We can't stop flying. And then I smoked DMT and had this image of MC Escher's angels and demons. But instead of angels and demons, it was pangolins and horseshoe bats. Oh, whoa. And came out of it and thought, of course I feel horrible. Of course this is depressing and confusing. This is actually one of the worst things that has happened in my lifetime, and I just have to accept it now. And I felt so much more at peace. It just stripped away the denial. And I could just say, all right, this is happening. So you were just wrestling with the reality of having to shut down. Yeah. And kind of I resented some other people on my team who in retrospect were behaving in a way that was completely rational, where I was thinking like, oh, come on. We're not going to go on this shoot, really. But they were right. And I was wrong. And I had to stop.