"Sink Into What You Are" with Duncan Trussell and Christopher Ryan (from Joe Rogan Experience #433)

You ever have a friend go crazy on you? Yeah. I've had friends that legitimately lost their mind. I can't talk to them anymore. Like you would talk to him about events. And his version of events would just like, so not what actually happened. And you'll go, oh, this is the person that's lost their marbles. Yeah. Yeah, it happens. You can temporarily lose your marbles in this dimension. Or permanently. Or permanently, yeah. But I think that like, I mean, yes, permanently, of course. I'm not saying through psychedelics either. No, I know what you mean. I'm just saying people that just can't keep it together anymore. And for whatever reason, whether it's a combination of life stress and biological situation, whatever the fuck they've got going on, you know, uniquely in their own brain. But some people just, all of a sudden, not there anymore. Not keeping it together. Do they think they're keeping it together? Sometimes, yeah. I mean, it's broad, you know, broad range. Right. There's all kinds of, yeah, it sucks, man. People, the brain is an organ and it malfunctions. And sometimes you go nuts and that's, and you get stigmatized for it, which really sucks. Because if you like, because that just adds to the problem. Like if you, you know, you see somebody in a cast and you're like, oh, what happened to your arm? And they'll tell you, oh, you know, whatever, I fell down. But you talk to someone who's been like hospitalized for a few weeks and they tell you, yeah, I had to go to the hospital. I had a nervous breakdown. I went crazy, shit my pants, threw my dog through a window. You're like, you know, you'll want, you want to be compassionate. But there's some part of you that's like, oh, now this is a crazy person. It's like, it's just something happened. The operating system temporarily crashed. And quite often, I think that could be a very good thing. I think that having your, your personality or your ego or crash can often mean that you were trying to be somebody that you aren't. And some people invest so much energy, so much energy. Yeah, they just want to be something, you know, they, since they were a kid, their mother was telling them you should be like this. And then they try to be like this and they hold up this thing. They're always working to hold up this giant tail feather and their arms start shaking and then they can't hold it up. And that's, that's when they have like anger outbursts or suddenly like their friends are like, you, you turned into someone that I've never met. I don't even know who that is. It's like, no, that is, you met them. You met underneath the tail feather, the seething sea of anger and disappointment and sadness. They, you met that thing that they're, they're trying to avoid by looking up at this mask that they're holding up to the world. But that fucking seething sea of disappointment, anger and horror and sadness, that's where it's at, man. You got to go into that thing. And for some people, the only way they can go into that is by having a full scale nervous breakdown because then they can have permission to dive into that, into that awful vortex of darkness. Because underneath that vortex of darkness is paradise underneath that that's love and happiness and joy and connection and tranquility and all that stuff. And everyone thinks that the way to get to that point is by avoiding this awful black forest that surrounds the Garden of Eden, which is inside everybody. It's inside everybody. It's there. It's there. And it doesn't matter. You know, you can work out and that will definitely give you a temporary temporary good feeling. But until you address the internal structures that you haven't acknowledged, you're always going to go back to that place where you find yourself morose and depressed and angry. You don't know why you always go back to that place until you sit with the sadness inside of you. You have to do that. What you're describing is coming out of the closet and, you know, yeah, for a lot of people, that is what it is, man. It's coming out of the closet. And there's a lot of clothes, a lot of clothes. There's not just the gay closet. There's all kinds of closet. There's the artist closet. Some people are fucking accountants. They're wearing suits and their ties on tight and they're fucking like organized and disciplined. But inside, they're probably painters. They probably want to fucking paint. They want to paint day glow mountains down at the beach. That's what they really are. But their daddy or their mommy wanted them to be a good little businessman. So they became this thing that's the opposite of what they are. This is the verse in the Bhagavad Gita. God forgive me because I've quoted it way too many times. But it's it's better to be an honest street sweeper than a dishonest king. It's better to be a happy guy brushing fucking leaves up the street than it is to be some zillionaire who inside is dying or numb or miserable. Mostly numb. Numb's the word. Most people are just numb. But as long as these people can quantify on paper, I still have a X million dollar home. My car still costs X thousand dollars. This suit is an X suit. I am still ahead. I am not going to abandon all these things. As long as they don't see through the bullshit of the game, they think they're winning. They have to fall. Yeah, it's almost like you have to fall to to really that's what you got to appreciate those moments when it all falls to part on you because that means you've got an opportunity to try it again. This let's take a new fresh perspective. This is a cool thing that at this retreat I went to this guy, Jack Kornfield, said, which I really loved. What a great name, by the way. Yeah, with a K, not a C, Jack Kornfield, Mortal Kombat, K, Jack Kornfield. But he's really cool, man. But he was talking... With a K. Cool with a K. Yeah, like the cigarettes. And Kornie. No, this guy was awesome. And one of the things he talked about is in some religious tradition, how they hold the scriptures. A rabbi had his students hold the scriptures over their heart when they were memorizing them. And they would say, why do we do this? And he said, so that when your heart breaks, they'll fall in. And it's a beautiful idea, which is that heartbreak is actually your ego cracking. And the moment that cracks, you're in the experience of truth. And when you're in the experience of truth, that's when you can really become who you are. But to get to who you are, it's like when a bone heals the wrong way. That's what a lot of people's entire personality is. It's like a bone that grew the wrong way. And that needs a fucking a snap, a crack. You get that through the plop. You need that, that initial fucking thing. It's a beautiful analogy. And it hurts. It hurts, but we're pain avoiding creatures. So we're always running away from this pain. But the problem is, as we're running away from pain, we're still exactly in pain. It's basically like being on fire and running away from water. You're just running away from the water because for some... I don't know, that's a stupid analogy actually. No, you were doing great up until that, though. You had a lot of great points. It's true. There's the monster in the dark, and the faster you run, the more likely you are to run into something that's actually going to hurt you, as opposed to turning around and saying, oh, fuck, there is no monster. No monster. But you're never going to know that until you stop and turn around. And in some cases, people don't have the discipline or the assistance or the balls to stop and turn around, so they have to trip over something. And then there's like, oh, look. That's a great way to put it, Matt. That's the classic story of someone hiding a sheikert and going completely out of control because of the pressure of hiding that. Like, that's the Ted Haggerty, who's the secretly gay guy who's preaching against gay people. Oh, Ted Haggart. Yeah, in Colorado. Yeah, that guy. Who was snorting meth off his gay lovers. Yeah. Yeah. He was just going so far the other way. He was just so off the rails crazy. He was being himself. He was being himself. He was a guy who likes to snort meth off of cocks. He likes to do a little meth and he likes to suck a few cocks. Well, that's a... But I would say he wasn't being himself. What I would say is that his behavior was so extreme because he was seeking balance between that and the other bullshit in his life. Yes, that's right. Whereas if he weren't living that, he'd be right in the middle. Right. Yeah. Well, to get to the middle, the way to get to the middle weirdly is whatever the behavior is that you're doing that you're so horrified about and terrified of. Sometimes the really weird ideas... This is like something that I like that Ramdha says, which is like, if you don't feel like meditating, don't meditate. Don't force it. Don't impose this on yourself. Keep doing the thing you're doing that's upsetting you so much. Have the balls to keep doing the fucking thing that you're doing. Keep doing it. Society is going to tell you, don't be like this. Stop being like this. You have to change. That's what your parents always say. The idea is like, no. Sink into what you are right now. Just be that thing. Stop resisting. Exactly where you are right now is perfect. And that's a hard truth to grasp because you think right away, you think, yeah, what about fucking Jeffrey Dahmer? Is he perfect? Well, what about the leopard? When you're seeing a leopard rip apart a creature, is that a perfect moment? I don't think the leopard fucks them and then kills them. But you know what ducks do? Ducks are necrophiliacs. Are they fucking evil creatures? Yes, I think they are. They made that Phil Robertson guy, a very famous person, because he invented a call for them. And now poor gay people have to hear that a man's anus is not as good as a woman's vagina. Can you imagine if you made the choice for a man's anus and you hear this fucking big bearded fashionista with his camo on a bandana? That's absolutely fashionista. That's so weird. I never thought of that. Big bearded Christian Bible slinging fashionista. And he tells you that your choice was incorrect. That in fact, the woman's vagina is the better choice. The man's anus. I mean, come on, guys. But how can you say that if you haven't experienced it? Maybe he has. I think he has. Again, the balance theory. I think he's so outspoken on that issue, like most of these homophobes are, because they're home jerking off to gay porn. Otherwise, you just don't give a shit. It just doesn't actually matter. It doesn't come up in a GQ interview. It's a duh thing, right? It's like duh already. Do you really care if people are gay? Duh. Do you really care if the two guys love each other? Are you against love? Do you only like love if it's a man and a woman? What the fuck, man? Really? It's a duh thing. It is duh. If you're talking about men's anuses in GQ, maybe you've got some issues to think about. Shouldn't we just be talking about ducks? Ducks and anuses? Isn't that your whole show? Do you know ducks and anuses? You shoot ducks all the time, right? That's your thing. Just talk about murdering ducks. Yeah. Why are you talking about men's butts? Why are you talking about asshole quality? Are you dragging this into butt sex? Well, the only way you can live that fake life is if it's fake. The actual, you know, this puritanical ideal that they've held up, it's not natural. And they haven't been really living it anyway. They've been pretending to be living it, being freaks in this sort of a rebound sort of a way to balance everything out. And I think that ultimately that's being exposed over and over and over and over again to the point where it's not going to be a viable option anymore. Like powdered wigs aren't a viable option anymore. You can't wear a fucking powdered wig, you know, and you can't pretend you're this, you know, Rick Santorum guy that, you know, just is a good man who believes in the Bible and doesn't want to see gays get married, doesn't want to ruin the institution of marriage with homosexual activity that's been shunned upon in the Bible. May I quote? And you're like, oh, fucking criminy. What's going on really? What's going on behind the scenes with you, Kat? What is in your head, man? Yeah. I keep waiting for it to get to that point where anybody who's got a big problem with homosexuality is by default admitting to their own homosexual life. But I've been waiting 30 years for America to go, come on, this is too silly to be real. Ronald Reagan, are you kidding? That guy was such a joke. But, you know, he's St. Ronald and the seeds planted 30 years ago. Well, even then. Well, even then there was a lot of criticism. I was in college with dudes who voted for him. But do you remember the criticism, though? It was pretty open. There was a lot of people that didn't like him. I remember when he was in office. But not enough that he didn't win 49 out of 50 states in his reelection. Oh, well, listen, man, I'm not saying that, you know, he didn't dominate the vast majority of the, you know, I mean, there was a lot of idiots back then. But the difference between the way people look at him now and the way people looked at him then. Now it's almost all glowing. When people talk about Reagan, I hardly ever hear any criticism. Yeah, you don't hear about Iran-Contra and Nicaragua and El Salvador and all that crazy shit. You don't hear about Oliver North and all that craziness and, you know, you know. But my point is that this idea that suddenly we're going to wake up and realize how ridiculous it is and it's Rick Santorum is too ridiculous to be real. Fucking, what's her name? Sarah Palin. You know, I am amazed that how flexible the reality muscle seems to be, that people are willing to accept this stuff that Frank Zappa was laughing about 40 years ago. I wonder if they're accepting it, though. I wonder, I think that you watch these shows enough and it creates the illusion of acceptance. But then if you, anywhere on the Internet or you just see this constant rebellion against that kind of square mainstream homophobic angry personality. But you watch Fox News and yeah, you watch Fox News or you watched anything on TV and it's an illusion. You know, you watch the commercials. Everything's this big illusion. You watch the commercials and it's like people go in and buy a car and make it seems normal. It seems totally normal that people are going in to get deeply in debt to the banks. That all seems incredibly normal. But then more and more on the Internet, you see like people rebelling against this and showing how the bankers, like the whole system is this fucked up thing and emerging things like Bitcoin, which are like slowly moving the energy away from it. I don't know. I know you mean I don't think it's going to be a sudden thing. I think it's going to be more like a just a gradual shift as people just stop watching TV. That's that's going to happen. People are just going to, you know, I drive down the street billboards for fucking like Amazon.com shows, you know, like billboards for shows that aren't really controlled by these big Netflix Netflix. Yeah. Yeah. But isn't Amazon just another big network? I mean, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a network or it's a international conglomerate or whatever it is. It's big money. It is. But you're right. But that's just the billboards. The reality is it's not that. But yeah, but it's not. It's not right because the media is a very different thing. The media where you're talking about television, you're talking about a very hard thing to get into the medium. You're talking about an interview, talking about an incredibly easy way to get into literally open to almost anyone with an Internet connection. You can make a YouTube video. It doesn't cost you a goddamn dime. You have a laptop that has a camera on it. You talk into it. You make a YouTube video that. Yeah, that's a big change. That's not just a big change. That might be the biggest change in human history. It might be the biggest change since a monkey ate a mushroom. Or certainly since the printing press. The printing press was a major... For sure, giant, you know. And similar in the sense that it took the power of communication away from very few and gave it to a lot more. Right. And that's sort of one of the more fascinating things about this is that even if Amazon does put something online, it's no better than I Justine, who has like, you know, 45 fucking billion followers. And every video she put... There's people like that that just became famous for the Internet. Jenna Marbles is another one, right? She's got like millions and millions and millions of hits. Okay, yeah. Here's what it is. Here's what it is. Because I've just been reading Shell Drake's new book, Science Set Free. And he talks about morphic resonance or something. And I know you have some... I think you're skeptical about Shell Drake, but it's like when you just have TV. TV is a tuning fork. And when there was no Internet and it was just TV and it was a depiction of here's what a family looks like, here's what people tend to... It's a corporation saying, here's what people do when they're healthy. And that creates a tuning fork effect, which is like if you're watching it enough, you're going to either resonate with it or... And feel like, yes, I'm doing great. I have a wife and a house and a car and a job and that's great. I'm in tune with what everyone else is doing. But that's an illusion. That's never been what everyone else is doing. It's just what massive conglomerates are sending out there, either in the form of hypnotic content that keeps you glued to your seat as you watch corporations try to get you in debt to buy cars. You know, it's generally it's just... The whole thing is just tuning all of society in a way that society maybe isn't meant to be tuned at all. And so with the Internet now, you have all these different smaller tuning forks, you know? Your podcast is a tuning fork. People tune into the stuff that you talk about and the different people that you bring on the podcast send out information that causes a new kind of tuning to start happening. So that's why when you watch like Huckabee, you'd really feel like you're like listening to somebody sing off key. Because you're not resonating. You're not resonating. You've been tuned into a whole different thing, which is what the Internet, I think one of the major things the Internet has done. You know, you get these communities, Reddit, you can get tuned into the Reddit frequency quite easily where suddenly it all just starts making sense. And that is why the Duck Dynasty guy or any of these weirdos who are just ultimately just angry people, that's why they seem so fucking crazy. Or they play angry people on TV. Right? Because I think a lot of these people aren't even, you know, like... That doesn't work with the Duck Dynasty guy. The Duck Dynasty guy has been giving speeches like that for years at these biblical retreats and stuff. He's been doing that for... Oh, that's his real shtick. He's not... He's a fire and brimstone, God-fearing Christian man who was living on the wrong side of the law and Jesus at one point in time and then turned it all around and wants to let everybody know about the evils of sin. He's an old dummy. That's what he is. He's an old dummy that loves... That's a scientific name for him. He's an old dummy that probably just one time sucked a dick and liked it way too much if someone sucked his dick and it's his favorite moment. He looks back on his childhood and he's turned it into, you know... A career. He was hunting ducks when it happened. I bet he was hunting... You're in that duck blind? They're all liquored up by moonshine. No. He wasn't hunting ducks. I bet right when he came into like some guy's mouth years ago out in the fucking... The duck outline. He saw a duck... That's why they call it a duck blind. Yeah, he saw a duck and the combined pleasure and shame mixed inside him. He's like, I'm just gonna kill ducks from now on and never think about this. You ducks, you didn't see shit. Your mother didn't see shit. Your father didn't see shit. Nobody saw shit. Can you imagine if that's really what it was all? It was just a duck saw him get his dick sucked by a guy and he's like, fuck that. It didn't happen. Didn't happen. I need to kill ducks. I think that's something like that happened, man. It's something like that happened. Yeah. It's like, man, what you do with sex at dawn creates a resonance where it's like, it's a shame reliever. It's a shame reducer, man, because your book, I think it has been... It's such a compassionate book for people who are stuck in monogamous relationships and feel guilty about the fact that they are attracted to other people. And that's like, that guilt used to be a normal guilt. That was actually considered like, oh, something must be going wrong with your relationship if you're thinking about fucking other people. And your book shows like, no, actually, that's just nature happening through you. You don't have to feel guilty about it or like something's off balance in you. It's just completely normal. It doesn't mean you have to go and fuck other people, but at least now you don't have to feel like, I must not love her anymore. Or she must not love me anymore. What's that have to do with fucking ducks? Country music songs. That's the glue. The glue that connects these two fucking ducks and the sadness you have for not wanting to be monogamy. Yeah. Country music. Country music. That's the glue. It keeps it all together. It's the glue that holds the... That's why you need to listen to Phil Robertson and that goddamn communist A&E that puts them on. Is that what it's on? I think it's A&E. Isn't that hilarious? It's on A&E. A&E used to be like fucking Masterpiece Theater and shit. Yeah. They used to have arts and entertainment. They used to have this interesting, fascinating programming that stimulated the mind. That don't sell cars. Now it's an email entry. Now it's fucking people that found a storage box. What's in this storage box? Yeah. But there's a lot of good stuff in there. I bet there's nothing in there. More after the break. Yeah. I wonder what this... How much you take for that? Five hundred. I can't give you five. I can give you three. I gotta get at least four. I don't know. Cut to commercial. The narrative arc. I'll take this as my last offer and I'll be serious. Cut to commercial. Wow. I wonder what his last offer is gonna be. He got him down to three. I wish I could...