2 years ago
Rick Doblin, Ph.D., is the Founder in 1986 and President of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), a nonprofit that wholly owns its pharmaceutical arm, MAPS Public Benefit Corporation (PBC), which has completed two highly successful Phase 3 studies of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD. MAPS PBC stands at a crossroads between obtaining the additional resources it needs from philanthropy, ensuring public benefit is foremost, or becoming a publicly traded company. maps.org
I had this other experience I just wanted to share about. This was a DMT experience where I realized that we all have the capacity for evil if we aren't careful in a sense. So the DMT kind of dissolved my ego very quickly. It was the first time I ever did DMT. It was sitting in a circle with a group of people at Esalen. This was Terrence McKenna. You did DMT with Terrence McKenna? Yeah. Yeah. He was a self-met snare from fire. There's about eight of us. And each of us, it takes about 15 minutes, 10, 15 minutes. One person would do it. They would sort of close their eyes, lie down, and come back after 15 minutes or so, and then tell the story about what happened. And then we'd pass the pipe to the next person. And this was like a whole evening of DMT stories. So my DMT experience was this. I saw this horizontal line. Then I saw a vertical line. Then I saw color. It turned red. It turned into cubes, like squares. And then it turned into like an MC Escher painting. And then I was gone. And it didn't make sense. And then I was gone. And then I just had this insight that in the deepest recesses of who I think I am in this inner voice that's kind of always talking to you, that I was using English. And I didn't invent English. It's all the product of all these people that came before me. So even in my most inner private self, I'm intermixed with everybody else and everything that came before me. And I had this beautiful experience of going back to the Big Bang and all of this kind of sweep of evolutionary history. And I'm part of everything. And everything's part of me. And it was all this beautiful stuff. And then I realized this sort of logical part of my mind was like, well, if everything's part of you and you're part of everything, then Hitler is part of you too. It's inner. And that was very shattering for me. That was in the DMT experience. That was in the DMT. Did you see Hitler in the experience? I did. I got a million golden Hitlers floating around you. Well, that we all have that capacity that if we want to claim that we're connected with everything, that it's not just the evil out there, that it's potentially in me. And it was very shattering. And the next day, we did Ketamine. And so this is where I did more C. Hitler. So this is actually an experience that has helped me with my political strategy in a way of what MAPS is doing. It's both drug development and drug policy reform. So under this experience, the next... It was very depressing and shattering to realize that I couldn't just say all the evils out there, that I have this capacity, that Hitler is inside me. So the next day under Ketamine, I was hovering above and behind Hitler as he's giving one of these speeches, like the Nuremberg rally kind of things. And the Ketamine gave me a bit of remove so I didn't freak out. I was there, but I was not there. So I didn't feel vulnerable in that way. And I saw him doing this speech and I'm thinking, how do I get into his head? How do I help him not want to murder and kill? What can we do to undo this evil? And then I saw this, the Heil Hitler salute near the end of his speech and he would go, put up his hand like that. And then everybody in the crowd would do it back to him. And I felt like it was the one pushing out this energy and then the many pushing it back to him and giving him... And they would go back and forth and the intensity was kind of increasing. And at that point, I was just realizing there's no way to get into his head. It has to be voluntary and that he was getting so much from it that he wouldn't... And I felt this panic rising above me and I felt that if I were to panic, I would never be able to be effective in the world, that I would just turn away from that. And then with ketamine, you can still breathe. And so I realized that if I just breathe, that might help me deal with this fear. And I started deep breathing. And then came this idea that ironically, rather than trying to change the mind of the one, we need to change the mind of the many and that they don't get as much out of it as Hitler did, that they're giving away their power to him. And so that's where we need mass mental health. So you hear a lot of people... I had a chance to talk to Steve Jobs for an hour, a long time ago. But he was like stuck in the sixties in a way. He was like, God, if we could just give all these politicians LSD, I thought, yeah, that might be good, but they might resist it. But really we have to base this new compassion and spirituality in the masses, in millions, tens of millions of people. This Hitler thing, can I ask you, I've never done ketamine. So when you're having this experience, what is it like? Do you realize that you are in a psychedelic experience, that you're in some sort of a hallucination or does it actually feel like you are there? It felt like I was there, but I had this sense that I was somehow or other also not there and removed. But you knew that you were tripping at the time, do you think? I lost that for a while. And as the panic kind of built up, I had this thought, I can breathe. So I did have that sense that I was on a drug and that if I were just to modulate my breathing, that would help relax me. So I had that thought, but I felt like I was really there. And it was way... I've seen movies of World War II and I've seen movies of Hitler giving speeches, but I was never as emotionally connected to it and in the moment as I was during this ketamine experience. So it was kind of a dual situation where I was there, but a part of me felt removed and safe and this thought like, okay, just breathe. But I never had that insight before about the Heil Hitler salute and how this energy exchanged between... And how the rallies were very dramatic and that's where he cemented his power through these rallies. Well, you know, Hitler was on all kinds of drugs. Yes. Yeah. God, I keep forgetting who told us that story, Jamie, but there was a story about Hitler convincing Mussolini. Do you remember? I've tried to look it up and find it. I can't find it either. It might not have even happened on a podcast. That's the problem. I have so many conversations and my memory is just so full. There's no room. I got like folders stuffed all over the place. I don't know where anything is. But the story was that Hitler was in the middle of campaigning and he was completely exhausted and he was supposed to meet Mussolini and he was going to not meet Mussolini because he was so exhausted. But then they shot him up with testosterone and liquid cocaine. And when they did that, he was just bouncing off the walls and he cornered Mussolini and talked to him for five hours and convinced him not to leave the effort, not to leave the war effort. And he sort of ... One of the things that this story was basically pointing to was that much of Hitler's mania and much of this rabid attack that he had put on the rest of the Western world was fueled by amphetamines and cocaine and testosterone. And that they just kept injecting him with all this shit that gave him this insane confidence and insane maniacal aggression. And it completely makes sense if you think about what he did. And then we also know that the Kamikazes were on amphetamines and many of the Nazi soldiers were on amphetamines. Well, the Blitzkreig, how they would do that, they were days and days on amphetamines. And then that promotes aggression as well. And just psychotic delusions. And he had this delusion of creating this master race, which is ... And that's the most cocaine idea of all time, right? Like this idea where I'm going to engineer the greatest human race ever and to be able to look at that idea from this cocaine-fueled or amphetamine-fueled perspective to the point where you're willing to commit genocide in order to accomplish your goal. Yeah. Drugs were a big factor in the Third Reich. Very much so. Also, we know that John Kennedy was given amphetamines. That's Dr. Feelgood, right? Yeah. Dr. Feelgood was a legitimate doctor that would run around and give people amphetamines. I found it. What'd you find there, buddy? The story? Oh, where is this from? Historyhit.com. Did Hitler's drug problem change the course of history? He got a shot of this stuff called Yucadol. Okay. Hitler took Yucadol for the first time before the dreaded meeting. His mood changed immediately. Everyone was very happy that the Fuhrer was back in the game. His enthusiasm was such that on the way to the airport to fly to his meeting with Mussolini, he demanded a second shot. The first shot had been administered subcutaneously, but the second was intravenous. It was even better. During the meeting with Mussolini, Hitler was so energized that he pretty much just shouted for three hours. There's several reports from that meeting, including an American intelligence report to the embarrassment of everyone in attendance. Hitler didn't stop talking throughout the entire duration of the meeting. Mussolini couldn't get a word in edgeways, meaning he wasn't able to voice his concerns about the war effort and perhaps raise the prospect of Italy leaving. So Italy stayed. At the end of the day, Hitler told Morell, the success of today is totally yours. Wow. So Morell must have been the doctor. Yes. Yucadol. Find out what that shit is. Okay. Yucadol is similar to heroin. In fact, it's stronger than heroin. It also has an effect that heroin doesn't have. It makes you euphoric. But I think they shot him up with some other stuff too. The word was that I'd read cocaine and oxycodone. I just hit Google when that's what comes up. Oh, interesting. But I had heard- And cocaine, it says. There are five milligrams of cocaine too. Where does it say that? Under D-I-X Wikipedia there. Yeah. Oh, is that what's in there? It's meth and coke mixed together. Oh, so that's what Yucadil is. Okay. That makes sense. So Yucadil is five milligrams of cocaine and three milligrams of methamphetamine. Wow. So D-I-X, it's a methamphetamine based experimental performance enhancer developed by Nazi Germany. Wow. So that's the stuff. Catch new episodes of the Joe Rogan Experience for free only on Spotify. Watch back catalog JRE videos on Spotify, including clips, easily, seamlessly switch between video and audio experience. On Spotify, you can listen to the JRE in the background while using other apps and can download episodes to save on data costs all for free. Spotify is absolutely free. 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