Oliver Stone Talks Edward Snowden with Joe Rogan

When you put together the Snowden movie, what was your aim? What were you trying to get out of that film? Well, I knew it was an important story because surveillance had never... I never imagined surveillance at this level. I realized that it could be every... With this new technology we had, that it could be everywhere. I mean, beyond my imagination, beyond anybody's imagination. And when I did the movie, it was to reveal what he revealed, which was shocking in its implications. We went even further and we showed how the control of information, the use of information, can destabilize many regimes. And they went after regime change became the new modus operandi for the United States. It was okay to change regimes. We were good at it. And the way we did it with soft power, subtle, what happened in Brazil a couple of years ago, typical, you know, the whole forcing out the president of Lula, getting rid of the Dilma, bringing in this... Well, this other guy came in from the right, but essentially Brazil was completely changed, completely changed. They're still working at it in Venezuela. They worked in Bolivia. They got rid of the guy illegally. Honduras. Libya. Libya. Libya was the one. That's the most spectacular failure, right? Yeah. Well, that was one of. Yeah, it's a failed state now. But it was a... Yeah, but that comes down to our policy in the Middle East. Yeah. When you make a film like that, how hard is it to put together? I mean, the Stoden film is so disturbing because it's current, right? We're dealing with things that are happening right now. Yeah. Yeah. How hard is it to put it down and make it this dramatic piece that's going to be enjoyed? It was hard. It was hard. You have to judge after yourself. I like the movie. I think it's tense and it keeps the attention throughout the movie. Of course, I got to know Stoneman very well and went to Moscow several times and met with him. Oh, really? Yeah. How does that get arranged? Well... Do you have to put a bandana over your eyes? No. I've done that too. Have you? Yeah, that was a terrorist group in the Middle East. What was that for? That was for a persona non grana. It was a documentary I did in 2003-2004 about the leader of the PLO. Whoa. Arafat. Yeah, I got to know him. Really? Yeah, I did an interview with him. Wow, what was that like? I was more... I didn't... Because of my connections, I had more contact with the Israeli side. I was in Ramallah. So, I mean, I was talking in Netanyahu before he was Prime Minister. I was talking to the leader, the ex-Prime Minister of the Prime Minister, all that. And then I went to Ramallah, which was the capital of the PLO there. Actually, I was there the day the Israelis... The day before the Israelis came in and knocked out the lights. Wow. They isolated Arafat and the Ramallah power. We got out at the last second, actually. But we were seeing Ramallah. We were seeing Arafat and showing his side of the equation, showing what he was thinking. So, part of that, I went to see a terrorist group. They became quite famous later. They're well known. They were young guys and they had their masks. And I went at midnight. I was more scared of the Israelis than them. Really? Because the Israelis could be tracking with all this equipment, and bug the shit out of us when we're in there. I was... That's what I'm scared of. The Israelis were dangerous. You thought the Israelis would do that knowing that you were a filmmaker? I don't know what they're thinking. I'm not sure they knew what we were doing. They saw people going into an underground bunker with people with masks. Who knows what they're thinking? They have great reconnaissance. So, you have to be careful when you fight them. And so, they requested that you wear a mask when they transported? Not the Israelis. But I mean... Yeah, when they transported them. But when I got there, I took it off. Did you... But that decision, was that a tough decision to make to let them... No, not for me. Drive you around with a mask on? No, I was very anxious to meet them. They call them terrorists, but who's a terrorist these days? Right. We can bomb other countries to death and call ourselves the good guys. But we kill a lot of civilians around the world with our bombing. That's true. But this message that you have, that you're not just a guy who makes movies, but you're a guy who makes movies and also a guy who's very outspoken about all of these issues in the world. Do those two get in the way of each other sometimes? Of course. Yeah. Of course, yeah. There was people that think sometimes my outspokenness overshadows my work. They might be true for them, but... Well, they try to label you both ways too, which is very fascinating to me. The world is complicated. And I did speak out and some people think that's... They say, I'm a filmmaker, stick to being that. But you know, it's very hard if you care. You know this. Well, it's very important that you don't and I'm glad that you have the courage to not stick to that. I'm not sure. I mean, I think it's when someone... Oh, sorry. Please go ahead, Snowden. Snowden, we couldn't get support for it. It was financed ultimately from France and Germany and Italy. And we got some small money at the end from the US with a small distributor. I mean, this is a big story, one of the biggest stories of our time. And we couldn't get support from any of the studios. We went to all of them. Well, people are terrified of it. That tells you a lot about... Well, I think it's a lot of people. They're terrified of it. That tells you a lot about what a mess we're in. We don't even have the guts to talk about stuff. We shut up. We censor ourselves. We self-censor. Yeah. In the 1980s, on 90s, I probably could have gotten it financed, but not now. Well, it's such a tense time. And that issue is so polarizing. And I don't understand how it isn't... I don't understand how it doesn't have universal support by American citizens. This story needs to be told. I mean, even when he was discussed as a podcast guest, a lot of people were saying, you should really stay away from that. They don't understand. They think he's some kind of Russian agent. It's crazy. He's been very clear about it. Well, it's very clear when you listen to all of the interviews with him. And then when I got a chance to talk to him myself, he is who he says he is. Exactly. A boy scout. Yeah. I mean, he has a story, and it's a spectacular one. And it's one of the most important historical moments of our time that we recognize that this overwhelming surveillance state has existed without us even knowing it. And cyber warfare, too, raises the whole issue of who's doing what to who. Right. We were very quick to say, they're doing that to us, China, Russia, this, that. They're doing this, steel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What are we doing? Yeah.