Joe Rogan - Weed & Mental Illness | JRE Pot Debate

Let me sort of try to frame this a different way. Alcohol reduces blood pressure. Alcohol generally tends to reduce cardiovascular events for people. And during prohibition, you could actually get a doctor's note for alcohol as a medicine. But alcohol is not a medicine. It's a recreational intoxicant. It has some positive biological qualities and some negative biological qualities. And there was an argument, I think, 10 to 20 years ago, should we recommend that people drink moderately, one to two drinks a day? And I think for the most part, the medical profession has calmed down on the side of saying, let's not do that. There's too many non-cardiac negative side effects with alcohol. Just on that note though, Alex, in Canada right now, I know the Safe Alcohol Drinking Guidelines are 14 drinks a week for men and nine drinks a week for women. So basically, two a day for men, one and a half for women. So you're saying, okay, we don't see huge negative consequences at that level. Okay. That's fine. That's a totally reasonable way to think about alcohol. But what we're not saying to people is, this is a medicine. And I think that's where the confusion around, really around high THC cannabis lies. And again, I don't mean to say that your friend's child is not benefiting. If you say he or she's benefiting, I believe you. What I'm saying is that that's not good enough for science. We need randomized controlled trials. And when those trials have been done, and a lot of them have been done, Joe, a lot of them have been done, they've almost unequivocally shown that cannabis doesn't work as a medicine. The only actual place where beyond these sort of very limited conditions like chemotherapy associated nausea, which obviously is terrible for people who have it, but isn't that common, fortunately, cannabis has been shown to work as a pain reliever, right? Probably for the same reasons that alcohol works as a pain reliever. It sort of dulls your awareness of your pain. But even in that study, or in those, even in those studies, they're mostly done against placebo, not against opioids or against NSAIDs like ibuprofen. And there was a very big study for cannabis use in chronic pain over a multi-year period in Australia that came out last year that showed that people who used cannabis had more pain and used more opiates at the end of four years than people who didn't. So we're almost arguing about what medicine is. Yeah, that study, though, had a lot of flaws in it. And the other thing is that you need to look at someone who is already using cannabis versus someone who is just using opioids. So if someone is just using opioids and they want to come off cannabis, you know, there's multiple... Come off opiates? Sorry, come off of opiates with cannabis. You know, multiple studies have shown that that can be effective. And that's not what was done in the Australian study that you're referring to. Right, it's a more naturalistic approach. Right, and also, too, you know, they didn't have access to medical marijuana during that whole time. Those are all self-reported and they were getting it from recreational sources. Sure. They weren't getting it from... That's a big distinction, though, Alex. Like, they weren't getting it from a doctor who prescribed it to them. This was a self-reported study and people were getting cannabis that, you know, they didn't really know what they were getting. They weren't given any information from a doctor. And that's why it's a medicine, Alex, because you can tell someone, you can tell a patient to take, you know, a certain amount of CBD every single day. And when you take a certain amount every single day, it can reduce your symptoms. And sometimes you need to increase that and sometimes you need to decrease that. We should do that with all medicines. We should be really clear about the distinction, though, between CBD and marijuana. I mean, we're really talking about the psychoactive version of it. And this is where you're saying it's negative. Yes. You're not really arguing that CBD is negative. No, no, I'm not. And I think, you know, Dr. Hart is talking about... He's talking about using this as a medicine, certainly using the CBD. He's titrating his patients. He's monitoring them. He's not writing them in authorization and saying, come back in a year when it's up. He's being a physician. And, you know, and I think to the extent that marijuana is medicine, we want people like him... So you admit it's medicine. No, no, no. I don't admit that. But you just said that. I don't think I just said that. I think I said to the extent. I'm trying to meet you halfway, but I'll stop doing that. But, you know, I think you said something else that was really interesting. And this came up in the book too. So you're a clinician. You see sick people. And, you know, it's funny, my wife's a doctor too. She's a psychiatrist. That's how I sort of got in this. But my wife is a forensic psychiatrist, less than a clinician these days. Her job is to evaluate people, not so much to treat people. Your job is to treat people. You see sick people, you want to help them feel better. And you don't want to tell them, there's nothing I can do for you. There's nothing... There's no hope for your pain. There's no hope for your PTSD. You want to help them. And I totally get that. But if you're an epidemiologist or a researcher who's trying to guide the, you know, the views and the medical practice of hundreds of thousands of doctors, that's not good enough. So you need to step back. And I think, you know, this epidemiologist in Britain who I talked to, he said to me, he said, you know, I try not to draw conclusions because so often when I try to draw them, I'm wrong. Yeah. And we need to be, you know, careful about that, right? And Alex, you know, one thing that was mentioned in your book, you know, is that, you know, you often say at the National Academies of Science and Engineering, right? But, you know, Ziva Cooper, you know, she's a member of that committee. I mean, she put out on her Twitter, I mean, you can go to it. It's from January 9th of 2019. She says, in response in the recent New York Times editorial on cannabis and as a committee member... Which by the way, that came out something that I wrote the whole amount of the book. No, no, I'm just trying to give people context of where it came from. Right, but this is someone you cited. No, I didn't cite her. I cited the report. Okay, you cited the report and she's a member of that, okay? So she said, in response to the recent New York Times editorial on cannabis and as a committee member on NASM, which is that committee, and Canadian Admissions Report, we did not conclude that cannabis causes schizophrenia. Then the Drug Alliance Policy also said the report did not reach that conclusion. So, you know, those are pretty too authoritative, you know, sources that are saying that, you know, in your book you didn't cite the research properly, right? And then also they're saying that you left a lot out, right? They said that they have found an association between marijuana use and improved cognitive outcomes in individuals with psychotic disorders. That's straight from the same report. And, you know, you failed to mention that, right? So I think that, you know, when we're writing books or when we're giving out information, you know, you want to do it from a balanced approach and you don't want to just select, you know, the small amount of material that's just going to support your study. You know, we want to be truthful here. You know, Joe's show has always been very truthful. I mean, Joe said right at the beginning he doesn't think that cannabis is perfect for everyone. And I don't think that either. And in Canada, you know, we have really strict guidelines to follow. You know, basically no one prescribes cheat sheet to anyone under the age of 25. And, you know, all the conferences and stuff that I go to, you know, we don't really have too many discussions about that. Like the doctors don't really have much of a backlash about that. So... Why is the distinction at the age of 25? Why do they decide that age? So 25 basically is when your brain... Yeah, it's fully developed. And when you do look at the studies that do show, you know, an association between cannabis and psychosis, it's almost all in adolescence. You know, I think that Alex only has one study in his book that shows an extremely weak correlation between an adult using cannabis and then developing any type of mental illness later. So, you know, 25 is a good age, but it's definitely a, you know, kind of a conservative-ish age. But, you know, it's something that we follow. And I think that, you know, we've done well with that in Canada. So, Alex, why did you leave those conclusions on your book? So I need to push back here. Okay. So the National Academy of Medicine report was drawn up by a committee of 16 researchers. Ziva Cooper is the one who's publicly said the report said this, but I think that we should have emphasized that it also said this. Okay. What I wrote in that New York Times op-ed, what I wrote in the book, is the plain language of the report. And the plain language is this. Cannabis use is associated with a risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychosis. The higher the use, the greater the risk. You may have a word or two wrong in that because I'm doing it from memory, but that's what it said. And by the way, the committee was very clear. They separated depression. They said we don't see nearly as high risk for depression and psychosis, even though, by the way, today, just today, JAMA Psychiatry, the Journal of the American Medical Association Psychiatry, put out a meta-analysis showing that cannabis is associated with depression and suicidal thinking and actually suicide attempts at a three and a half to one rate. This literally was released today. But to go back, Ziva is one of 16 members of that committee. So if you're going to say that I misquoted the report, which I didn't, I quoted it entirely accurately, you need to say, well, why aren't the other 15 members of that committee saying that I misquoted? Why is one person who works for the Cannabis Research Initiative at UCLA, which takes money from cannabis investors and users, she's the one who said that I misquoted it. Maybe we should ask why the other members of the committee are not speaking out against my book. Well, I think that she was just one of the 16 members that came out, but you can't really expect all the other members to potentially come out with that as well. Why not? Well, some people won't. If I did something wrong, if I misquoted them. Well, some people will and some people won't. Some people have the personality, some people have the platform. Ziva has a bunch of followers on her Twitter. People know who she is. A lot of people who do research actually are not into social media at all. I don't think you were at all before you had your book, were you? Yeah, I was a novelist. So I was promoted. So you weren't into social media at all. So I don't think that most people on that committee are into social media. Ziva just happens to be. I even spoke to Ziva on the phone about this. And she said that, yeah, I don't. That she agrees with everything that was in the report, but she doesn't agree with your conclusions. My conclusions are quoted from the report. But you're only quoting the parts that back your opinions. You're not quoting the entire part. Like you left, like why did you leave out the part that said they have found an association between marijuana use and improve cognitive outcomes in individuals with psychotic disorders? So you're leaving out that part. So why did you leave that part out? If you can find me a psychiatrist who thinks that it's a good idea for somebody with an active psychotic disorder to use, why did you leave out that part? Well, my book presents, it makes a case, right? It makes a case that this is a big issue that we have not heard about at all. And the reasons that we haven't heard about it have a lot to do with the advocacy community and the way they've presented this data for 25 years. I wrote a book that is trying to break through a lot of noise. So, but still, like to get a balanced approach, did you decide that you were only going to write about things that confirm the belief that you held when you were writing this and what you were trying to push in the title of the book and in the conclusion of the book? I think that's a really great question. I think in the introduction of the book, this book is not balanced. There's not a lot of evidence in there. If you want to read about how indica and sativa strains are different, you're not going to read that in this book. But I also want to say this. I didn't come at this, and I say this in the introduction of the book too, as an anti-cannabis crusader. In fact, when my wife said to me, as she said to me, over and over again in 2014 and 2015 and 2016, these are the cases that I'm seeing, these are the terrible things that people are doing after cannabis use. I sort of said to her, first of all, why do I always have to hear about this at the dinner table? But more importantly, you know, why is it that maybe these people are using other drugs? Maybe you're seeing a slice of the population that's not representative. Why is it that I should believe this? This sounds like reefer madness to me. And you know, ultimately, my wife, who's the one who went to, you know, she actually, as I was talking to Dr. Hart about this, she grew up in Newfoundland too. She went to the Memorial University of Newfoundland Medical School, and she went to Harvard and Columbia for her postgraduate training. You know, eventually she got tired of me yapping back at her, and she said, why don't you go read the studies yourself? And it was that that led me to write this book, because when I read the studies, I could not believe the strength of the evidence, Joe. But you're still, even in saying that, you're still seeing positive results that you're excluding. Again, there's this one, there's this one sentence, that means not just one sentence, but there are a few sentences about how it may be that cannabis helps people's positive, it helps cognition in people with psychosis. Maybe, maybe not. Wouldn't that qualify as medicine? Not if it's, no, it wouldn't be approved as medicine if it's causing them to have other psychotic episodes. But if these people have psychotic breaks and an improved cognitive function in people with psychotic breaks, wouldn't that be something that you would prescribe to someone? No, no. Again, you need to think about how the FDA is looking at medicine. No, I understand the FDA's position, but I mean, looking at it as medicine, I mean, if we could prove this through studies and through some sort of clinical trials. If it is improving your IQ, two points on a test, I'm not saying it is. Is that all it is? I'm not, I think we have to look it up. I'd have to look at that. I'm not sure. But at the same time, it's making you floridly. That could be whether or not you took a nap. No, no, it's just two points. But at the same time, it's making you floridly psychotic. You're not, that's not medicine. Well, it's not necessarily the same time. One of the things that I read about schizophrenia was that there's, people were trying to make a correlation between marijuana use and schizophrenia, but the problem with that correlation, and what I read, and maybe you could help me on this, was that it's the exact same number that you find the general population. Essentially, 1% of the general population has schizophrenia, which is 1 out of 100 people. And when you have marijuana users, you see essentially that same number mirrored. And so they're saying that a small number of people, hold on, but let me get, in a small number of people, what they were saying essentially, and what I read, was that marijuana use was associated with the onset of schizophrenia. But they were disputing this in this study because they were saying, because the same number is mirrored in the general population. Again, correlation does not equal causation, right? Dr. Hart, I think you got to tell them that's not true. So tell me, tell me what that means. So traditionally, yes. When you look at the stats, you'll see that, you know, the people who use cannabis versus the people who don't use cannabis have very similar rates. But getting to the exact rates, you know, so in the US, they say that the range for schizophrenia is between 0.25 to 0.64%. Globally, they say it's 0.33 to 0.75%. So, you know, right there, it's apparently lower in the US. And the US has the highest percentage of cannabis consumption in the world. And the US also has a lot of people that are using high potency THC. So, you know, I think that, you know, we really need to be careful about throwing out, you know, stats like that. Because, you know, when you do look at the stats that we have, it shows that even though, you know, there's a lot of cannabis use in the United States, schizophrenia rates have remained the same. So I have to push back really hard on this. This is one of the great myths of legalization. Okay. No one knows what the schizophrenia or psychosis rate is in the US. Right, because a lot of people aren't treated. People aren't treated. People get different diagnoses at different times. We have bad health care in this country and we have a lot of protections around mental health. In fact, in 2017, the National Institutes of Mental Health suddenly changed its estimate for the percentage of people with schizophrenia in the US from 1.1% to 0.3%. They did it with no public notice. And then this researcher said, hey, this is a miracle. They just cured 2 million people with schizophrenia. And then in response to that, the director of the NIMH said, well, we actually don't know how many people have schizophrenia in the United States. Nobody knows. Nobody knows if the rate is increasing. Nobody knows if it's decreasing. The only countries where they can count noses on this with any accuracy are in Northern Europe because they have good health care, because they have slightly, you know, less protections around individual privacy and mental health privacy. And so they are able to count cases. And in Denmark and Finland, which are the two places where they've actually done this research in the last 20 years, they've shown increasing rates of schizophrenia between about 1995 and about 2010. And that goes side by side with increasing rates of cannabis use in the 90s. So the people who are saying that there's no evidence of population-wide increases in psychosis are just wrong. That's just wrong. But isn't it possible that there's other factors? Oh, absolutely. I mean, environmental factors, there's a bunch of other different things that you can consider. Let me be clear on this. We absolutely don't have the evidence at this point to say that cannabis use in the U.S. is causing a population-level increase in psychosis and schizophrenia, which are – by the way, those are sort of different illnesses, and we can talk about that too. So we don't have the evidence to say there's a definite increase. But what I'm saying is that what you have been told that there is no increase in schizophrenia or psychosis rates in the U.S. That's – we don't know if that's true or not. We just don't know. I'll ask you this. There has been proven that there's an increase in marijuana use. Is that correct? Yes. Correct. Absolutely. When did the increase begin and what percentage is that increase? So there was an increase in the 90s, an increase in use and in potency. Use sort of bottomed out around 1991. And then there was sort of a flat – Bottomed out? I mean, it hasn't increased since 91 or 2019. No, no, no, no. It's gone about 50% since 92, roughly. That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. Well, wouldn't you expect a corresponding increase in schizophrenia if there was any sort of correlation? So hold on. Let me just – let me walk you through, okay? It bottomed out in the early 90s. Okay. So it increased again, increased in the 90s, flattened out between about 2000, 2006, and since then has been going up again, especially in, let's say, the last three, four years. And the other thing is that potency in the last 15 years has gone way up. Right. I don't think anybody would dispute that. But has schizophrenia gone up? So what I'm saying to you is we don't know. There is evidence. There is now evidence on a population-level basis in those other countries that schizophrenia and psychosis has gone up. And there's for the first time in 2017, there's data showing that serious mental illness, which is not the same as psychosis or schizophrenia, in the U.S., doubled between 2008 and 2017 in people aged 18 to 25. And those are the people who are most likely to be using. So for the first time, there's actually evidence of what you're talking about, which is a population-wide increase. Now, again, I'm not going to say – Can I get you to clarify it? Sure. Can you say serious mental health? So serious mental illness – so this was defined – there's a study called the National Survey on Drug Use and Health. It's done every year, covers 70,000 people, federal government funds it. It's sort of the best data source we have on all this stuff. It showed that – and they're not counting cases either. No, but let me just be as clear as I can on this. Nobody's counting schizophrenia cases on a national or even state-level basis in the U.S. But you say to people, did you have depression so bad that you couldn't get out of bed? Did you – you know, were you hospitalized this year for any inpatient psychiatric reason? And if you look at those numbers, in 2008, 3.7% – I remember it was 3.8% – of Americans 18 to 25 reported at least one symptom. So they were categorized as having serious mental illness that year. In 2017, that number was 7.5%. So that's a doubling. So again, I am not going to say that proves that the increase in cannabis use has caused this population to have an increase. But something. But something bad has happened. And if you look at kids 12 to 17, interestingly, they, over that time period, didn't have a big increase in cannabis use. In general, teenagers actually are pretty healthy now, although Juul and Vaping may be undoing that. And those kids didn't have a population-level increase in serious mental illness. Can I stop you for a second there? Because there's other factors. One of the big ones is Yuval Noah Haradi has a great book, 21 Lessons for the 21st Century. I read that. It's great. And one of the things they talk about is the onset of social media. Jonathan Haight talked about that as well. And the onset of social media – it was actually more hate than Yuval and Haradi. But Jonathan Haight talks about it with young people. Yeah, I think it's a huge part. I think that social media and the pressures of social media have led an incredible amount of young people to serious mental distress and serious anxiety, serious depression. And suicide amongst young girls has increased some 50 percent, according to Haight, over the period of 2007 to I think whenever his book was written. And I think they're directly correlating that to the pressures of social media and to anonymous online bullying and all these different factors that are affecting kids. So I think that could be considered a far more significant new form of distress to children and young people than even marijuana. I think it does it twofold. I think that what makes people really depressed, maybe more so than anxious, but definitely both, is that when you compare yourself to someone else. And people – obviously we've done that – all humans have done that since history began. But now everything is online. You can compare your life to everyone. And people are doing it all the time. And even worse than that – and we should talk about this too – is that the income gap is getting wider. So it's like people's lives – not only are they getting better than other people's lives, but now it's on display so everyone can see it. Whereas before, maybe you wouldn't have seen it because it wasn't on social media, but now it's on social media. So you have this huge income gap that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then you have people going on social media and they're comparing themselves. And you're absolutely right, especially in that age population. People under the age of 30, they're being bullied online. I see it every day in my office. Literally every day people are being bullied online. And that's something that I never had to deal with growing up. And a lot of kids do have to deal with that. Just one more note too. Since Colorado has legalized cannabis – this is important for this subject and this topic – they've actually seen marijuana rates decrease. So it's important for people to know that – No, no, no, no. Are you talking about teen use or overall use? Overall use has gone up. Teen use is flat, overall use is up. Okay, yeah, I'm talking about teen use. That's the category that we're talking about under 30. So teen use would classify as part of that category. So in Colorado we have seen a decrease. Do you think that's because of the lack of – because it's not illegal, it's not as exciting to them? Part of it for sure. And I mean, part of it – one worry I had, I haven't looked into the statistics yet, was when you're growing up and when you're in high school, if you want to be part of the cool crowd, so to say, you usually drink or you smoke pot. That's what people do. I hope that that doesn't change because pot's seen as medicine. I hope that people don't move on to or do something harsher because they don't see pot as cool anymore. Right, because there's no stigma attached to it because it's legal. So I got to push back on a couple of things. So everything you say about social media, it sort of intuitively sounds correct, right? The problem is the data doesn't support this at all. The data shows that teenagers, another 12 to 17, those kids are healthier than they were 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. They drink less, they smoke less, they have sex later, they have fewer abortions, they are healthier. And their mental health doesn't seem to have changed that much based on the NSDUH data. The data shows a big change in kids 18 to 25. They go to college, something goes wrong for a lot of those kids, at least in the last few years. But when you're talking about suicide rates, suicide rates are especially with young girls who are apparently more affected by social media, they've gone up significantly since the rise of social media. That is the big factor. But hold on a second, more so than cannabis use, and that's a fact. So you're talking about a tiny, tiny number. No, it's not a tiny number. It's a 50% increase of people that commit suicide that are young girls. The people who commit suicide in the United States are middle-aged white men. Okay, but young girls, wait a minute, you're discounting these young girls that are committing suicide to fit your statistics or to fit your conclusions. No, what I'm saying is that's a tiny, tiny number. But it's a 50% increase, it's not a tiny amount. This is something we can look up. Well, let's find out what the numbers are, because when Jonathan Haidt was on the podcast and he discussed it, I mean, he showed this chart, and it's an alarming increase directly correlating with the increase in use of social media. Sure. And by the way, I'm not saying- But why would you push back against that? That seems to be a factor. What I'm pushing back against is the idea that kids 12 to 17 generally are less healthy than they were 10 or 20 years ago. No, in saying they're less healthy, you just said they're more healthy. Yeah, I'm saying they're more healthy. Right. But we're saying that kids- Mental health has nothing to do with cardiovascular fitness or- No, no, no, no, I mean mentally healthy. I mean they're less likely to use drugs, they're less likely to have sex, I'm saying- But they're more likely to commit suicide. Oh, that is a tiny, tiny number. What are you talking about? If it's 50% increase, that's a huge difference. We should look up the number if we're gonna- Look, Jonathan Haidt's work is very well respected. What I'm saying to you is that there's a clear increase in psychological distress in kids and young adults 18 to 25, okay? There's a clear increase. And those are the people who are most likely to be using cannabis right now. Those are the people that are most likely on social media as well. Sure. And that's a stressful period of your life, Alex. Yeah, I'm still willing to stand- It's like 12 to 17, you're usually living at home, like 18 to 25, then you gotta go to university, you gotta deal with all these courses and stuff. I'm willing to concede, I'm willing to concede that, and I've said at the beginning of the program, that I think that marijuana with some people is not beneficial and in fact could be negative. But I don't understand why you're not willing to admit that social media has a significant and unprecedented impact on young people that we've never seen before. I would totally agree with that. But I don't think that you can say based on the population level data that the impact is all negative. It may be- listen, it may be- Who's saying that the impact is all negative? What we're saying is that 50% increase in suicide with young girls. Right. But that's huge. Let me give you an example. When you were 15, or I was 15, maybe you got really drunk, right, and wound up in a bathtub. Like, maybe kids today are less likely to do that because of social media, because they know it's gonna be on Instagram forever. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's proven. No, it's not. I don't think there's anything that would point to that. Well, what I can tell you is proven is that kids today- I'm talking about teens, 12 to 17, have less psychological distress by all these measures. I'm talking about their actual behaviors are better, or better or worse, that's a moral judgment, but they're healthier than they were 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. They're less likely to have sex. They're less- when they're 14, which I think most people say is a good thing. They're less likely to be drinking. They're less likely to be smoking. Those are good things. Well, less likely to be drinking, less likely to be smoking, less likely to have sex, does not correlate to positive mental outlook and less suicide. Well, yes, there's- I agree. We- look, let's look at the numbers. But depression and suicide are very difficult things to measure, right? Depression- well, suicide's actually pretty easy to measure. It's a hard number. It's a hard number. Depression is- Look at this spike. This is good. The bottom number is in females. So, okay, I mean, this is what I'm saying. The death rate- first of all, this is- okay, the death rate for girls age 15 to 19 is 4 per 100,000, Joe. It's at a 40-year high. Right. So, I mean, you'd be hard put to say that's a huge spike. It was 3 per 100,000 in 1975, and it's a little bit over 4 in 2015. That's not- that's one case per 100,000 girls. Yeah, I don't know what the actual facts are. I'm looking at this right now. The suicide rates for teens 15 to 19 years old. This is something that we'd have to study to have this discussion. What I'm telling you is- I feel a giant spike for boys in the 1990s. Yeah. What the fuck is that about? Ninety-five. What I'm telling you is if you put middle-aged men on this chart, you'd have to blow out the ceiling. Mm-hmm. Like, people- the suicide crisis is unfortunately a crisis of age. Okay, I would agree with that. I think- well, we actually talked about that yesterday with Andrew Yang, that suicide amongst men in their 50s, and then they start to feel useless. Yeah. Yeah, and especially if they lose their jobs. But what Jonathan Haid is pointing to is a direct correlation between social media use, depression, and suicide amongst young girls. So thank you for finding that. What is it? This is the article it's from, is- from this. Suicide rate for teen girls the highest it's been in 40 years is social media to blame. Right. So- Okay. Click on that link. New data prevented- released Thursday by the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Suicide rates amongst 15 to 19-year-old girls doubled between 2007 and 2015, reaching a 40-year high. I would say that's significant. Again, I would- and it's obviously a terrible thing when anybody commits suicide, but we're talking about two per 100,000- I understand. Actually, it's five. Well, it went from two to four. Okay. Sure. That means for every 100,000 American girls in 2015, five committed suicide. That's not a very high number, but I mean, that's also someone who's pushed to the extreme- Sure. Of taking their life. How many girls are experiencing severe depression but don't commit suicide? That's the real factor because this is what hate directly connects to social media. Again, the 50% increase, you're talking about a relatively small number because not as many girls commit suicide as men, but still, this could- You're talking about- you were talking about depression. Right. You were talking about these significant factors that would lead people to have poor mental health. Yeah. This could be a huge factor in this, right? And I think that, too, it leads people to suicidal ideations and depression and anxiety. I mean, right here, we're just looking at suicide, which is the worst endpoint possible, right? Sure, absolutely, which is very rare amongst girls, period. Yes, absolutely. Or less common. It is, yes. Men do commit suicide more than women do. But we really have to be careful about that because, again, suicide is the end. It's the worst thing that could possibly happen. So what about all the things leading up to it? Are there people who don't commit suicide but suffer from terrible depression, suffer from terrible anxiety, suffer from terrible insomnia? Those people are not accounted for in that graph. I agree. And what I'm saying is that cannabis use has spiked in the United States in the last 15 years. And teens notwithstanding, we've seen a large degradation in a number of these social outcomes. And now, just today, we have a JAMA psychiatry paper that looked at a bunch of other studies that said cannabis use in teenagers is associated with depression, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts in people once they get to 18 to 30. So it may be a factor. It could possibly be a factor. Yes, but it might also be that these kids are depressed because of social media and they're using cannabis. Or they're depressed because their friends died from opioid overdose. There's a lot of potential. A lot of potential. I agree. We are conceding the fact that, you know, you just said, again, that study was done on adolescents. You know, Joe and I have both conceded multiple times that, you know, we do not think high THC cannabis is good for people in that age category. But, you know, just to back up just a little bit again, you know, I don't like I said earlier that, you know, I don't prescribe THC generally to anyone under the age of 25. Most other doctors in Canada don't. But I think that we should be prescribing CBD to these kids. Like a lot of those kids, you know, who have suicidal ideation, depression. I mean, you know, you could never do a study on it, but, you know, how many of those kids wouldn't have committed suicide or wouldn't be feeling this way if they were using CBD? Because we know SSRI, selective serotonin, we have to take inhibitors, you know, which are the most commonly prescribed medication for depression and anxiety, even in adolescents. We know that they can increase suicidal ideation. That's been shown. I mean, it's written right on the package. So again, like as a clinician, you have to, you know, treat your patients. If you're just treating people with something that's not effective or that has horrible side effects, you're going to look at other alternative treatments. A lot of people have had excellent results with CBD in that age category. You know, I've had it done in my practice and lots of other physicians have had it done in their practice. So it's really important that when we're talking about teenagers and when you're talking about that study, you're talking about high potency THC in adolescents. That's where, you know, Joe and I both can see that, you know, THC is not a good medicine. Look, if GW Pharma or somebody else can do a study with CBD and depression or some other cannabinoids and non-intoxicating cannabinoid and depression and get it approved for that, that'd be great. We need all the treatments for depression and for, and boy, do we need treatments for psychosis that we can get. I totally agree with that. And I'm really glad to hear you say you don't think that adolescents should be using high potency or any hard drugs. Or any hard drugs. Or any hard drugs. Especially alcohol. No, and they should try to also, you know, stay away from the other medications. So I want to push back.