Joe Rogan - Should Government Pay For Transgender Surgery?

Did you hear about, um, I read an article about how somebody was like, I know I'm supposed to have a hand here, but it feels so fucking foreign that, and there's been multiple recorded cases of this where they will shove their fucking hand in dry ice so that they can get it amputated, so that afterwards they can say, look, I'm free, I finally feel normal. It's like, you just, and they say that to them it feels like, if I had a fucking third hand just growing out of here, I'd feel like that shit doesn't belong. There are some people where they feel like their hand doesn't fucking belong. And what that shows is like the variation in human psychology is so fucking broad that it's scary because when you really digest that that exists, you also can understand how, well, there's monsters out there too who want to fucking massacre people and they dream about that shit and that's how they get their rocks off. Yeah, the human mind varies so much. There's so many different paths that thoughts can go down and there's so many different weird pathologies that the mind is capable of. But the idea that you would think that you're supposed to be handicapped and you're not handicapped so you want to chop off a foot or something like that, it's really, I mean, it's not common. I shouldn't say it's common, but it's definitely documented. So let me ask you, what's your take on if somebody's transgender and they want the surgery? And let's say they're either in the military or they're in prison or something like that. Is that something that you think should be provided for them or no? Um, hmm. It's a good question. I haven't really thought about it too much. I don't think so. I don't think that that's an elective surgery and people would say, no, it's not elective surgery. But you think that other people should pay for that? Boy, I don't know. I don't know what it is. I don't have it. Okay? So if I was going to say, I know why people are transgender, they're transgender because of body dysmorphia. They're transgender because of gender dysmorphia. They're transgender because of this, because of that, because of abuse, because of, you know, they're easily susceptible to suggestion. I would just be talking out of my ass. I don't really know. I would imagine, though, that there is a broad spectrum of reasons why someone becomes transgender. Some of them being that they literally have the wrong programming in their brain. Some of them being that they could have thought that they were fucking wood elf. I mean, or that they... That's the furry shit, is the weird shit. Oh, that's weird. But the furry shit too is like, I've talked to some furries because we were kind of goofing on furries. Oh, no, other kin. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of other kin. That's the shit I'm thinking of. And that kind of shit is nuts. But there's also people that identify with being a six year old girl. I mean, there's been documented cases where people identify as being much younger than they are, and they think that you're able to have sex with young kids. So I feel like, so on the transgender one, I feel like for a very long time, I don't think I understood it at all. And then I think I finally got it when it was explained to me, like, okay, imagine that you as a straight, you know, cisgender male... Don't use that term. Whatever it is. Give it power. Don't do it. Okay. As a white male, let's say I walk outside and I'm forced every time I go outside to wear a fucking wig and lipstick and high heels and a fucking dress. And I'd be mortified because this is not who the fuck I am and why am I wearing this shit. So if you think... The first point you made, which is, hey, maybe they were just born with the wrong programming, that they're born biologically male, but they really feel like they're a woman or vice versa. So if that's the case and it's basically like torture for them to not be the other thing, well then I kind of understand that. And I'm in favor of them being able to get that surgery. Where they lose me, not transgender people, but where I get lost in this whole conversation is, like, the gender fluidity one. Like, I was a male, now I'm a woman, and now I'm a man again, and then I'm a woman again, and then I'm a man again. Well, maybe you're just a fucking idiot. Yeah. Maybe you're just a nutty person. At a certain point, there are things that are real and there are things that are not real. And I feel like it delegitimizes the ones that are real when you go too goofy and too far and you try to pretend like gender fluidity is a thing. Well, isn't it what we were talking about earlier when we were talking about left-wing people versus right-wing people that in the term, left-wing people, anybody can join. And you're gonna get people like the green-haired people that were disrupting their high-ing speech because she was saying there's a difference between men and women. You're gonna get those nutty fuckers, and then you're gonna get people that are just reasonable people that happen to be progressive. Sure. You're gonna get that with gender fluidity. You're gonna get that with people that are transgender. You're gonna get that with people that are, you know, you're just gonna get a wide variety. It's very difficult to nail things down and decide. But for, like, for everybody who looks at that and then gets turned off to that and says, you know what, I align more with the right-wing because of that culture stuff. Like, I get that feeling over the culture issues. But again, the point that I would make to them is just don't forget that when I talk about politics and when I talk about where I fall on the political spectrum, to me, I break it down toward on policy and where I fall on the policy issues and what we should implement in order to fix the country. And on those issues, like we were talking about earlier, I'm pretty reliably left-wing, and the polls show that the American people actually lean in that direction. Right. So if you focus on those issues, the economic issues, the substantive issues that change people's lives, then, you know, I think that one can look at the culture issues as almost like a diversion because it really is a gateway to other ideas that I think are terrible. So I think the idea of people on the left calling out that goofiness is a good thing so that you can redirect them and be like, well, this is what I actually stand for. This is what people who are on the left and want to improve people's lives really want to fight for. Yeah. I was talking to Douglas Murray about this yesterday, and there's just this thing where everyone was forced to say that Caitlyn Jenner is beautiful. Like, you couldn't just accept that she was a woman. You were forced to say that she was beautiful and that she's a hero. And that's where you get the gateway to the right, because people go, if that's what you're going to tell me represents the left, then go fuck yourself, because you're just not telling the truth. Yeah. So, and it's – I hate the thing where it's like we have to care more about feelings than what's accurate. Right. So I don't know why. There needs to be a giant wave on the left of the take no bullshit approach to stuff. Well, I think when it comes to the transgender thing, too, you need to be open to all avenues of this discussion. And one thing that I think we need to be open to, we need to think very carefully about why it is that someone needs surgery to be themselves. Why it is that someone needs exogenous hormones that aren't native to their biology to be themselves, like someone who wants to take estrogen who's born a male. If you feel that you're a woman or you feel that you're in the wrong body, does it make sense that nature wants you to get surgery? Does it make sense that nature wants you to take hormones that don't exist in your body? I mean, is this a – this is a rational area of contention and discussion. This is something that people should talk about. Like when you say if someone is forced to wear lipstick and high heels and makeup and walking down the street but that's not who you are, wouldn't that frustrate you? Yes, it would. But it doesn't necessarily conversely work where you are walking down the street without lipstick and high heels and makeup and you're saying that's what I'm supposed to have. Well, no, because that's not real. Like lipstick is something you choose to apply. High heels are something you choose to wear. No one's forcing you to not have those things on. So you're saying that those things are what you really are. Well, no, you're adding those things to you. What you really are is you. No makeup, naked, wake up in the morning, take off your clothes. That's who the fuck you really are. If you say that you should have the right to wear makeup and the right to wear lip, of course, you should have the right to get your face tattooed like a Maori. You should have the right to do whatever the fuck you want. But that's who you really are. That's somehow your true self. There might be an underlying psychological issue there that's relevant. And to discuss that puts you in this category of being transphobic or insensitive or right wing. I don't think that's accurate or fair because I think this is a real weird issue. It's very weird. And I think the only people that truly understand it are the people that are going through it themselves, the people that actually have it. And we can call upon those people to explain it to us, but you get a broad spectrum of answers from those people as well. So what if it is kind of like depression in a way? So if you give chemical assistance to somebody who's going through depression, everybody goes, right, good. Because you want that person to feel like they're happy and normal. You don't necessarily even think that that's good. I think exhaust all other possibilities first, including exercise and diet. Sure, sure. But there are examples of people who do have that genuine chemical imbalance. They do, but why do they have that genuine chemical imbalance? I saw that. I saw that, yeah. And he makes a lot of really good points about like what is it that's happening in your life? Is it your situation with your relationship, your career, your life, your health? All these different things need to be taken into consideration instead of just putting some duct tape over it in the term of these SSRIs and all these different psych medications that they're handing out just as easy as they're handing out Oxycontin. They're passing these fucking things around. And they radically affect your consciousness. So let's say everybody has all their ducts in a row and they're exercising, they're eating healthy, they're doing everything by the book. And if you look at it on paper, you're supposed to go, yes, that person should be healthy. And what's, what the fuck's your name? Oh, Cara Santa Maria, who you've had on the podcast before, and she talks about how, listen, I was depressed and they tried a whole bunch of different antidepressants. They finally got me on one that worked. And then she says, like, listen, I want people to understand you need to look at this like treatment, look at it like, you know, hey, I've got a fucking disease and they got to give me antibiotics in order to feel better. The problem with that is real scientists and doctors disagree with that. And I don't know if she exhausted every other possibility. And Cara, she worships at the throne of science. And she thinks that this is the way to handle it. And she might be right. It also might be possible that if she had rigorous exercise on a daily basis, cleaned up her diet and did a bunch of other things that maybe that would be just as effective if not more. I don't know. I don't know what she's done. But I think that automatically assuming that this blanket statement called depression, which could be, what does that even mean? You're not happy with your station in life. What does that mean? You're not happy with your body. What does that mean? I don't know what it means. I mean, you tell me that you have it, you know what it is when you have it. But how do you know that what you have is the same as what that guy has or what she has or what other people have? Sure. We don't know. But we do know is the human body reacts in very different ways when it's well fed with nutrients. And when you exercise on a daily basis, you flood your body with the natural endorphins that come from that exercise. When you surround yourself with a loving community, when you engage in things that are rewarding to you, all these things have a very positive effect on the way your mind works as well as the way your body feels. The way your body feels has a positive result on the way your mind works. To think of either one of being independent of each other, I think, is ignorant. It's the same thing. Yes. Your body is all the same. And there's radical. Look, I'm not a depressed person, but I feel way better after I exercise. Oh, of course. There's science on that that says when you exercise, when you eat right, of course, you're going to get it. Definitely get a boost in your mood. But it's hard to do. And that's why people like to take a pill. That's totally true. And they also like to justify their actions. When people take a pill and that pill's effective, they go, well, this is my thing. This is what did it for me. It worked for me. They're like, OK, but at what cost? Can you orgasm anymore? Like, there's a lot of shit that happens to people that when they take those fucking things, they really fuck them up. Sure. So if you're making the point that they're overprescribed and people rely on them too much and it's part of the culture in a negative way, totally agree with you. Yes. If we look at the example of, say, paranoid schizophrenia, where it's somebody who literally sees shit that's not there and it's a genuine psychological disorder where they need a very powerful drug like Seroquil or something like that. So in the case of transgenderism, what if it's more analogous to a mental state that's as real as that? You know what I mean? But is the solution surgery? Sexual reassignment surgery? And how do we even know? I don't know, but then this gets back to the point you made about the personal freedom angle of it where they say, you know what? I'm going to do this and this is what I want to do. I definitely think they should have personal freedom to do it, just like they think they should have personal freedom to get their fucking nose pierced and do whatever you want to do. But should you have to pay for it? Well, then that gets into the broader conversation about who should pay for medical coverage, period. Right. But is this an elective thing? Like, how about girls that identify with a girl who has big tits? I identify as a girl who has big tits and I have little tits. So you're saying the line is fucking blurry. Well, it's certainly blurry because it's the same thing. It's the same thing in terms of you don't like your physical state and you want someone to change it. And if you say you would be happy if you had D cups but you have A cups and you're convinced, this is the key to your happiness. How is that any different than a person? And you could get mad at me all you want, but we're talking about the physical state. The physical state of someone. Like, how can you say that the only way to fix this? Or how could you not offer that up as a possible avenue that these people can pursue it? If there's any surgery that can help you and you want other people to pay for that surgery, just because it pertains to gender doesn't mean we have to automatically acquiesce. I don't think that's rational. And when it comes to breasts or other various elective surgeries, I strongly feel that people should pay for those themselves. Sure. Well, absolutely. When it comes to the example you give about breasts, totally agree 100%. Well, why is that different than sex change? I'm not saying it is. I'm not saying it is either. I'm just saying if that is the case where, and by the way, I haven't read the science on this, but I'm sure there has been science on this. And they've answered the question as to whether or not doing that surgery is effective. Well, it's not. Here's the problem. There's a massive, massive suicide rate. It's over 40%. So even post-operation. I was going to say, am I wrong in my assumption that pre-operation, that's when more of the suicides are versus post-operations? I don't think it changes. I'm pretty sure. Let's be accurate about this. Suicide rates, pre-, post-, transgender, sexual reassignment operations. I am pretty sure that it's very similar, that it doesn't change. And then there's also causation versus correlation, right? Is it because they were depressed because they were in the wrong body, they led them down this road, and now here they are, and they just can't get past it? Even after they have the surgery, they're still bummed out. They're not accepted by society. As a woman, even if it become a trans woman, they're still not accepted by society. And could that be changed by us being more open-minded and loving and caring and accepting? Is it nature? Is it nurture? Is it the environment? Is it innate in the person? I don't know what it is. But if it is a legitimate mental health disorder, which it used to be called, it used to be called gender dysphoria. And now if you use the term gender dysphoria, it's hate speech. In terms of us talking about this might get this podcast demonetized. I'm sure it will be. Probably will. If it is gender dysphoria, then wouldn't it actually be a medical condition where the treatment should be paid for? It's a good question. Is that the correct treatment for gender dysphoria? Is that the correct treatment for someone who thinks that they should have no hand? Should you chop that hand off? What do you think? I don't know. Should you chop a penis off? I don't know. Well, that's what Caitlyn Jenner did. Yeah, allegedly. Wait, did she get it? She did, eventually. But the most hilarious statement after she did that, she said that she is no more of a woman now than she was before. Well, then hey, definitely keep your dick. Yeah, that's a good point. If you were still a woman before, and pretty much everybody accepted you as a woman. I'm the same now, which is why I did this really radical thing. No, well you did admit that you did that for a reason that you really wanted to do it, and now it's different. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Maybe Street Cred let her to have the operation to just fully get, I mean, she's fully accepted by that community and become a spokesperson by the community. But you know what? It's funny because she's super right wing on other issues. Remember when she went on this? Dean Merrick! She was like, I'm a very traditional. Yeah, like, you're traditional, I'm sure, yeah. I'm a very, very traditional. So a lot of people in the trans community were like, you know what, fuck her, because she was out there arguing, I forget, it was gay marriage was one of them. Yeah, it was gay marriage. But then there was another one where she was talking about economics, and she was, you know, like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's like, you fucking privileged prick without, how much money do you have for just sitting around all day and getting paid from the Kardashians? She's a male Kardashian. She always was. That's what she always was. She's on that fucking frivolous, ridiculous show, and she became a really bizarre side note in pop culture. And that's what's going on. I mean, when you listen to her talk, she's like one of the worst spokespeople ever for the trans community. And a lot of trans people say that. They're like, we don't want her as, because they're, you know, if you, trans people are individuals. Yes. So you have to look at people like they're individuals. And when somebody's put out as this is a leader of this movement, then it's like, well, that makes— There's way better examples. The woman who created Sirius Satellite Radio, she also created a satellite navigation system. She used to be a man. In fact, very, very brilliant person. I interviewed her for sci-fi for that Joe Rogan Questions Everything show. She created a model of her wife who—they actually had babies together, and then she became a woman. And they stayed together. And she created a robot of her wife, and she's like constantly programming it and changing it and adding, you know, new language and new vocabulary to it. And she thinks eventually as technology improves, she's going to be able to recreate her wife in a robot form. Right. By the way, another great example, Brianna Westbrook is— What does this say? The uncomfortable truth that many surveys, including the 2011 Swedish study, indicate that suicide rates remain high after sex reassignment surgery. The Swedish study reports that people who have had sex reassignment surgery are 19 times more likely to die by suicide than is the general population. To be fair, to be fair, I see the sources LifeSite News, which is a very, very right one. That's true, but the National Center for Transgender Equality reported in 2014 that 40 percent of the people who identify as transgender have attempted suicide. Very well may be true. I'm just saying that— That's the National Center for Transgender Equality. They were just breaking up this article here, which is the study. Oh, PLOS-1 is legit. Okay. Yeah. That's true. That's legit. But they're reporting facts from studies, and I mean, this is pretty well established that there's a high suicide rate amongst transgender people pre- and post-reassignment surgery. Okay. For sure. But then we go back to the same thing. It doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't be happy if they weren't just fully accepted by society. I mean, I don't know if—I think Caitlyn Jenner's probably happier because she gets a shitload of attention now. Yeah. She was in the shadow, but, huh, I'm over here. Gosh, I'm over here. By the way— I know she's the front and center of fucking Vogue magazine. Yeah. A lot of attention. Speaking of people who would be a better example and a better face of the transgender movement, Brianna Westbrook is a candidate who's running for office. And there's actually a special election today, and she's running for Congress, and she's really inspirational. I know about her because I founded Justice Democrats, which was a group that was going to primary corporate Democrats and run candidates who take no corporate PAC money. And she's one of the candidates. And what you find is the people who are really respectful are the people who—like, she happens to be transgender, but she's not putting that front and center. You know what I'm saying? She's a person. She's a person, exactly. And she's going, here are the things I believe in, and I think this will improve everybody's lives, and I'm going to run on these issues. And it's not like, hey, I'm transgender. If you don't vote for me, then you're a bigot. Right, right, right. That's a very good point. And I think open-mindedness is incredibly critical in our wide, diverse society. And when people push back against that, it creates all sorts of giant problems. And I just think it doesn't matter. You should be able to do whatever you want to do. And if it doesn't affect you, why do you care? I think we should be really, really, really careful about what we do to children, though. Yeah, I saw your conversation on that recently, and I think you made a bunch of good points. Like, when is it okay to say, you know what, okay, if you want to do the surgery now, you can do the surgery. Well, there's a – going back to Heather Heying and Eric Weinstein, there was an article that I believe Eric – not Eric, I'm sorry – Brett Weinstein put up on his Twitter yesterday, or maybe it was Heather. But they were discussing this real problem with kids who are really young, where it becomes a trendy thing to think that they're in the wrong gender, and then they get reinforcement from their very progressive friends who also get excited about this idea. And then to intervene surgically or chemically when your body's still in development, you're 13 or whatever the fuck you are, you don't know what you are yet. And you should be able to give yourself a chance to grow and develop. But there's a lot of people that disagree, including people that are already transgender, that in my mind, they're probably more supportive of it because they want more people to do it. Like, Steven Crowder had this weird thing where he and Jared, that guy that he does his show with, went to this meeting, and they were talking about – they just did this undercover film thing, where they were talking about their six-year-old, like, is that too young to transition them? And they're like, no, matter of fact, studies show that it's a good time to do it, and that you could transition back if he changes his mind. And he was like, what the fuck are you talking about? No, you can't. You're using hormone blockers in a kid. You're going to radically affect the way that kid develops as a grown adult. Yeah, I don't know what line is the proper line. Adulthood. Adulthood. But what are we – is it 16? No. Is it 18? Is it 21? I think it's probably 25. 25. I think it's fully developed frontal cortex. Don't –