Joe Rogan & Josh Zepps Go Back and Forth on Abortion

Hello freak bitches. That's where it gets weird. But isn't this like life in general? Yeah, it's slippery. Yeah, there's there's I mean, it's like we're talking about with abortion Like what is it? Is it killing a baby? Yeah, or is it a medical procedure? You know, we all just agree that it's both that like that. No, I don't understand why there is in especially in this country Like it's so So polarizing here, you know, this is not a debate. No. Oh, come on, man. I know Honestly Dawkins had tweeted something about it that there's nothing that People like a human embryo was essentially the same thing as a pig embryo was like some ridiculous comparison to abortion well, it's the religious right will always be crazy about the things that it's crazy about and People will always get offended on Twitter when Richard Dawkins tweet something that's unpopular By the way, I have an interview with him coming up If so, if you don't let me just plug if you don't subscribe to we the people live and search for we the people all One word in your podcast app. I'll be talking to Sam Harris tomorrow Which will get released in a couple of weeks and don't shout at me for not releasing it immediately like you did last time Twitter and we'll have some not to shout it. We'll have some good now. That's right. Exactly. First remember, right? It's true I'm gonna sue their answers and drag them through court and I'll be talking to Joe about I'll be doing launching a little Ask me anything so don't anything and so I had door I did a Dawkins stroke, he's great. He's fine. He's doing well Well, the stroke did not affect his his cognitive function. No, it did affect his ability to sing which is interesting Oh, that's interesting tune. Yeah, and it's so there are a few motor functions that I think it's affected But it didn't yeah, as you say, it didn't affect his cognitive. So that'll be being released. So so follow at WTP Underscore live on Twitter and underscore to find it. It's all find it weird people anyway so what Richard Dawkins was saying and is People are gonna be angry at him on Twitter regardless of what he says but I still affirm that in the state in the states the conversation around abortion is uniquely different from the way that it is in Europe and in Australia, it's much more of a It's just much more of a fault line issue and I wonder whether in hindsight it wouldn't have been better For Roe The Wade not to actually have been decided by the Supreme Court that way what well just because I don't know people gonna You don't know you fucking cisgender piece of shit. I believe I believe in a surrogate. I believe in abortion rights but I don't believe that it's that you can find in the Constitution of the United States a right so inalienable That the Supreme Court like where is it in the Constitution the Supreme Court said there's a right to privacy therefore There's a right to abortion because we don't want to interfere in women's affairs But that presupposes that the embryo isn't a human You don't have the right to privacy to kill somebody Right. I mean if I go into a room My right to privacy doesn't extend to me get being able to get away with killing a baby The question of whether or not it's a baby is the relevant question right that's not addressed at you know in Roe So I think that it should be legal, but I think that it should be legal through the legislative process I think that is a legitimate democratic Aspiration for people to be able to and if it means that it's not legal in Alabama because a majority of people in Alabama Don't want it. I don't think the founding fathers would have a problem with that Well, there's a strong amount of large amount of people that don't want men talking about this at all Did you feel it you should be able to discuss this? Yes? That's the problem that is one of the main problems in the female issue Well, I can understand a woman being upset that a man with no steak in the game is Stepping up and saying that a woman should or should not be able to have an abortion Well, why I mean it how do I have steak in the game of whether or not for example murder should be legal? Well, okay. This is not that this is this is something different. This is someone If there's three cells in the body it might be to you But it might not be to them if it's just having like okay. Here's the morning after pill. Mm-hmm Is that the same as an abortion? I? Don't care because I don't think there's anything wrong with abortion No, I don't think there's anything wrong with a brother is if it's a nine-month-old Baby the baby's in there and it's about to come out the next day. You decide to open her up and stab it in the head This is what I'm arguing for is a kind of incrementalism which you were just alluding to right? It's not a black or white thing Why can't we both why can't we all appreciate that? It's both because it's become so polarized in the United States that both Positions are bullshit and people on both sides know that both positions are bullshit It's bullshit to say that it is just a women's health issue and has no ethical implications whatsoever Even if as you say you're talking about cutting a woman open at nine months and stabbing the the embryo in the head It's also bullshit to say that the instant an egg is fertilized That is a person with that should have all of the rights to life that an adult should have and that it's murder to kill a Blastocyst that's smaller than the size of the head of a pin right? It's stupid. This is an incremental situation life Evolves it grows a fetus grows it becomes a human being in Peter Singer the great philosopher also an Australian Says that under certain conditions infanticide the killing of babies should be legal and could be ethical well He's an animal nut he loves animals more than yeah, but he makes a legitimate point Which is that you know why does it make a difference? One day after the baby is born suppose you've got a premature baby. That's born. You know four weeks early In fact now we can already make babies survive it right right around the point of viability Which is where abortion is still on the on the fringe of so say you've got a 22 or 23 24 week old? Baby not not week old baby after birth. You know timing from the from the moment of inception conception That could live outside the womb right at the moment it gets born it becomes murder to kill it But you could have killed exactly the same Organism with exactly the same future and exactly the same prospects and exactly the same life If it was inside the womb in certain states Well under rovi Wade, I'm not talking about late term I'm talking about the point of vias rovi wade state of the viability time It's it's been interpreted as being like that 20 to 24 week, but does it specifically say that I don't I don't think I don't know Whether or not that comes out of the actual ruling where they were writing it in rovi wade But I do know that that is the way that it's been interpreted by lower courts since then But maybe they actually spelled out the number of weeks either way You know he's pointing to it to a legitimate conundrum of sort of moral hypocrisy complicated slippery issue It's not simple black or white right and the idea that we shouldn't be allowed to think and talk about the the moral quandary of this Because we can't have babies. Well. I'm not a green. I'm not agreeing to that No, and I'm saying that is an argument that women want to take because they'd feel they feel like there's this unjust sort of male Dominance on the female reproductive system look when I see a bunch of white men white old men sitting in Congress making rules against women predominantly young women predominantly young women of color who are in areas that have less the least amount of access Which is a predominantly women of color how so because safe legal abortions are more difficult to obtain in places like rural Alabama than they are in places like New York City. Yeah, but there's a lot of white people in rural, Alabama I don't necessarily think it's a racial issue as much as a poverty issue Yeah, especially like things like Planned Parenthood and shutting down Planned Parenthood's they're just gonna affect people that don't have much money Yeah, who are disproportionately people of color as well? Disproportionately in terms of the actual numbers of human beings or In terms of percentage wise, right? Numbers of human beings it's not right, but you can understand how it would look bad If you're a black woman you add people of color to that it accentuates the issue makes it even more problematic It makes it more of a big left-wing progressive issue right that can't be argued against Do you think the optics discrimination against people of color? Oh don't want to do that. It's people But do you think that the optics would look as bad if all of the old white men who were writing the laws were black I Think it all looks bad. I don't think it'd look as bad the idea hold on a second You're saying that if old white men make these issues. It doesn't look as bad No, I'm saying it looks worse bad as possible. It looks worse than a Man, we're making this issue against all poor people Yeah, because old white men just seem to drip privilege because they you every single checkbox. They've got going for them They're both male they're white Anyway tortured argument Thomas you don't think it looks weird when Clarence Thomas votes against abortion. Oh, yeah, I do Yeah, so there you go, but I mean my point my point is simply I Take the optics as being a bad thing I think the optics are worse if it's white people and if it's black people But I'm happy to I'm happy to yield that point to concede that point if that's a sticking one the point is We Have to be able to have conversations about anything without allowing our identities to prevent us from being able to think On this show was because I was getting into an argument with an activist about whether or not I had a right to Have an opinion about whether or not Stephen Colbert had been racist Right, and she was claiming that I didn't I didn't have a right to have a conversation about it because I'm a white man Well, that was just the way she tried to get out of the argument you know the whole thing before that was her not understanding the joke and She didn't want to own up to the fact that she didn't understand the joke and then when you sort of explained it to her She was using the you as a white man thing to try to deny your opinion You think it happens all the time? I mean, I think this is exactly what you're saying I think we're both on the same page here in that I think we both agree that you should absolutely be able to have a conversation About this the question is should a man be able to decide? What a woman can and can't do with her body and should we be able to make the laws? But you just smuggled in the term with her body. Well, it is a baby if it's a blastocyst and it is in her body Right, she doesn't listen to her body Right, so that is a decision that we're talking about that so when it gets to be an embryo or a fetus Along the way somewhere along the way it ceases to be just her body An unrelated male human being when should that person be able to make a decision and should a male human being be able to Make a decision at all because if you can make a decision about the embryo or a fetus Can you make it about the blastocyst like when can you decide and why should a man be able to make that decision in? The first place because he's got it because he's got a brain as well and we're all invested in deciding controlling someone's body you are talking about controlling a body no which a woman with Inside of her you tell her she can't take care of that blastocyst and remove it She must make it viable and bring it to birth. We're talking about when a homo sapien comes into existence That's a philosophical and ethical question. No, it's not if you're Being if you're telling a woman's body No, no, because we're talking about the rights giving someone a right or stopping them and controlling them Yeah, if you're talking about a blastocyst inside a woman's body, and you're a man and you decide you don't even know this woman You decide by your moral argument and judgment. She should not be able to terminate that blastocyst Then you are deciding what she can do with her body No, you're deciding what she can do to the blastocyst. It's in her body. It's inside her body sure It's also inside her body when it's nine months old so you you're saying a man Unrelated man should be able to have input on whether a woman should no terminate a blastocyst no I'm saying I'm saying that the democratic institutions of the state should be able to decide that I'm not talking about democratic institutions We were talking very specifically about a man. What are you talking about? Well if it's a dictatorship, then I don't agree with it I do believe that people should be able to I think this is something that people ought to be able to vote on yes I personally again favor abortion rights But I don't think that I don't think that the gender of the person who is voted into power By the voting public is relevant in terms of whether or not the voting public thinks that embryos are human beings Well, you don't think that I don't think I don't think that embryos have a right to life But I don't I don't think that it makes sense to say that an embryo is just the woman's body We're not talking about an embryo. We're talking about the entire process right the entire process of conception to birth and that somewhere along That if if there are if there are males in positions of power in Congress that they should have to abstain from ruling I'm sure the male justices on the Supreme Court have to abstain from voting on abortion cases I'm arguing that it's problematic when a man decides who cannot get pregnant decides when a Baby is actually a baby so should not be allowed to vote for I'm not saying that I'm saying candidates that are anti-abortion Don't you think it's problematic that a guy should decide whether like say if you're a hardcore Yeah, I've already said it looks bad like not just the optics is fuck looks man But what is problematic mean other than looks well? It's not it's it's a huge issue. It's not looks It's a huge issue that someone who cannot get pregnant Decides that another human being that they're totally unrelated to can't make the decision that five cells that have bundled together must be brought to life They think that those five cells are a person well. They don't even know this I mean you're just a lot of cells They don't even know this person. They don't know this for why should they have any power over this person? And why should they have any power is that a dick determining when are they controlling a person's body? And when are they saving a baby? Well, that's precisely the question isn't it right that is the question should they should a male have the right to determine whether or not a woman Can murder her newborn, baby? It's a good question. I say no At least you're consistent. Yeah, I don't think what if you should be one year old I don't think anybody should be able to murder a baby. I don't think a man should have the right I think we society as a side no No, no, no, you were just I thought you were just saying that you you think that a man should not be able to prevent a mother From killing her baby. No, that's I said that wrong But I mean is no because that is what you're saying with regard to the to abortion You're saying that a man shouldn't have a should not have the right to prevent a woman from killing her baby He's a very in the eyes when we interrupt each other. It's not gonna work Okay, I know what you're saying and I know that you're saying that we should all have a stake in this We shall be able to discuss this. I just think that when you talk about like especially like a blast assist eventually becoming an embryo We have to agree in some way shape or form that you and I don't have a stake in it We're not gonna get pregnant. No, it's a way. It's a way bigger issue for a woman than it is for a man. Yes So we agree we agree that it's a way bigger issue for a woman It's for man, but you should be able to discuss it I just think we both agree that you should be able to discuss. Yeah, I mean I'm coming from here is that I feel like we use identity politics to deprive other people of standing To discuss questions that are actually universal because they're moral questions, right? I think we all have so I one thing that I try to do as much as possible is understand where people who I disagree with Are coming from and I know you do that as well. So I am pro Abortion rights but in order for me to understand where people who detest abortion are coming from it's necessary for me to make the sort of leap of empathy and Logic into their camp and see things from the way that they see them Which is that the instant egg is fertilized for them that becomes a sacred a sacred question of a new life Where it's no longer about the woman's body It's now a moral and ethical question that we're all involved in because we're all involved in what our culture is allowed to do And who it's allowed to kill and how it's allowed to kill them So it becomes a bit more like a death penalty question where you might say Well, I'm never gonna be up for the death penalty because I'm never gonna do anything that would require that would put me on death row So what standing do I have to be in favor or against the death penalty? That's sort of a moot question like we're all in this society together We all have to figure out what's right and wrong and if we've got a brain We should have conversations about what's good or bad and the fact that I'm unlikely to be in a specific scenario Doesn't actually really give me less standing to have a conversation about it or even to write laws about it if people vote me into A position where I can write laws about it. Well, I certainly think it does when you're talking about a blast assist I certainly think it does when you talk about the argument of conception and when something becomes alive So let me ask you this when do you think abortion should be legal? Do you think it should be legal up to nine months or these you think should be cut off period? I think it should basically be legal all the way up to nine months I probably agree with Peter Singer that maybe maybe it's occasionally okay to kill babies So you say wow so you think that a viable baby inside a woman's body at nine months old She's fully pregnant as long as that baby doesn't come out. She should be able to kill it Well, I'm saying even if it does come out maybe That's because I'm evil that's ridiculous Murder a baby Well religious people think that you think that because they think that blast assist About religious people I'm talking about you Yeah, I don't I think it's obvious that the process of going from an egg into a Joe Rogan is such a long and incremental Passage that I don't see any reason why 20 weeks or 22 weeks or even vaginal birth is like the absolute Moral cutoff. I would like to think though that that's weird that you have this like really rigid opinion on it I don't have an original opinion. Well, you have thinks you could kill a baby. You don't think that's rigid No, cuz I'm absolutely open to being convinced out of that It's just I happen to have read a book by Peter Singer about that and so he sort of convinced me I mean what you would have been sure that you should be able to kill a baby when it's born Well that there would be systems in place that would like that would help mothers I don't think that it should be I sort of agree with Bill Clinton's old framing that abortion should be safe legal and rare Right that you should have as many opportunities for people not to get pregnant in the first place widespread contraception widespread sex education and that This should not just be a form of birth control right on the other hand if people find themselves in a horrible pickle and They don't know of how to get out of it. You think you should be able to hit the baby with a rock Used to do it years ago, didn't we? Yeah, I don't know Joe. It sounds pretty horrible doesn't it? It does but again you can't get pregnant and I can't get pregnant so that's true But I could kill my kids serious they're getting furious at us right now for even discussing it because we can't get pregnant They're wrong. They're wrong, but you're right. No, I'm right that I should be able to talk about it But I don't know what the answer is You definitely should be able to talk about it, but should be able to kill a baby with a rock. Yeah, probably no Probably when I talk about that. I'll never be on death row. Maybe that's how I get on death row killing my children it's so evil and unsympathetic and Unempathetic some people that killing a blast assist is the same German it is but you don't see that little fucker No, you don't ask the sisters long You'd have to have like reading glasses on to even look at it at the head of so as long as you put a comforter Over the baby, so you can't see what's happening. I think what we're talking about is a really complicated subject I