Joe Rogan - Jordan Peterson's Carnivore Diet Cured His Depression?

Right. So you know, I want to get into this because this is a I think this is a fascinating thing with you personally that your diet You're on this carnivore diet. Yes. Okay, so I want to preface that with something I am NOT a dietary expert. So I'm speaking as an uninformed citizen. Yes This is anecdotal evidence from a human being. Yes has dealt with autoimmune issues. Yes your whole life. Yes You have done this for how long now? I've been on a pure carnivore diet for about two months and a pretty a very very low carb greens only modified carnivore diet for About a year. So in the year and and and a low carb diet for two years So from the time that I've known you I've known you for what two and a half years now something Yeah, when I first met you you had much more weight on your body and you look different Yeah, and you were back then you were eating like the standard diet, right? Like yeah. Yes pasta bread, yeah chicken, whatever. Yes, right You shifted over to only meat and greens. I saw you and I'm like you look fantastic I'm like, what are you doing? You're like I changed my diet. I only eat meat and greens. I was like, wow, that's fascinating Well, I felt like okay. What you're doing is cutting out refined sugars and all these different things that are problematic Preservatives all the bullshit processed foods and you're having this extreme health benefit. I was like, wow, that's really excellent You're showing great discipline then you decided to take it to another place and cut out the greens Yeah, I know what was the motivation for cutting out the greens? Well, all of the motivation for this has been my experience with my daughter because she has an unbelievably serious autoimmune disease I just talked to her this morning called well, it's it's arthritis But it there's there's way more to it than that but the arthritis was the major set of symptoms She had 40 affected joints and she had to have her hip replaced and her ankle replaced when she was 15 and 16 And so she basically hobbled around on two broken legs for two years in extreme agony And that was just a tiny fraction of the of the whole set of problems. I just talked to her this morning She's in Chicago. Looks like she has to have her ankle replacement replaced So that's next on the horizon, but but apart from that she is doing so well now it is absolutely beyond comprehension So she's she's she's very trim. She had a baby, but she's very trim. She's down to about 118 pounds She's about five foot six. She's just glowing with health all of her autoimmune system symptoms are gone all of them And she was also seriously depressed like severely depressed way worse than you think she couldn't stay awake for more than about six hours without taking Ritalin and she was dying and I had a cousin my cousin's daughter She died when she was 30 from an associated autoimmune condition. So there's a fair bit of this in our family It was bloody bleak. I'll tell you and my wife always had a suspicion that this was dietary related, you know, and I know Well, we did notice that when Michaela was young if she ate oranges or Strawberries that she'd get a rash like there were there were and then when she developed arthritis If she ate oranges in particular that would definitely cause a flare It was the only thing we could see the problem is is that in order to identify a dietary component? The response has to be pretty quick after you eat the thing like if it's two days later How the hell are you gonna figure that out? a lot of these responses appear to be delayed for four days and last a month So good luck figuring that out anyways Michaela noticed about three years ago. No more than that now five years ago She was at Concordia University and struggling with her with her illness and all the association associated problems She noticed that around exam time. She was starting to develop real skin problems and My cousin's daughter who I mentioned had really bad skin problems and wounds that wouldn't heal and that was partly part of the process that eventually Killed her and she thought oh it must be stress and then she thought wait a second I really changed my diet when I'm studying all I do is eat bagels. All I do is eat bread sandwiches she thought maybe it's the bread so she cut out gluten first and It had a remarkable effect like a really remarkable effect And then she she went on a radical elimination diet all the way down to nothing but chicken and broccoli And then her symptoms started to drop off one by one Like and and like one of the things that happened is she started to wake up in the morning She started to be able to stay awake all day And when you're only staying awake for six hours with Ritalin staying awake all day That's like having a life. And so a whole bunch of things improved then her depression went away And I've had depression since I was 13 probably and very severe and I've treated it a variety of ways Some of them quite successfully but it's been a constant battle and my father had it and his father had it It's all just rife in my family and my wife has autoimmune problems in her. Do you say depression define it? Oh Oh, how would you define it? Because that's a war. It's a blanket term Yeah Well, imagine imagine that you wake up and that you remember that all your family was killed in a horrible accident yesterday You would feel that even if nothing was wrong. Yes. Yes Just just worse than that because really well one of the things Michaela told me was she thought well What's it like to be depressed? imagine you have a dog and you really love the dog and then the dog dies and Then about two three years ago our dog died and that was Michaela's dog and she really liked that dog And she said that was bad But it's nowhere near as bad as being depressed and I asked her to at one point when she was about 15 or 16 I said look you've got a choice kid. Here's the choice. You can either have depression or arthritis Which one I'll take the arthritis Well, that was after she'd lost two joints So it was no joke it's no joke man it there isn't anything no, I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say there's nothing worse Because worse is a very deep hole right, but it's bad. Yeah people prove you wrong, right? Oh, yes, definitely worse worse is a deep hole Anyways, her depression went away all these symptoms went away and like radically So what changed her from chicken and broccoli to carnivore? Well, she she she kept experimenting and she got very sensitive to all sorts of foods in the aftermath of that too So this is why I wouldn't recommend that anybody does this casually because we don't understand much about it But the upshot was that well, she kept she kept she kept experimenting And she started to add things back and take them away and sometimes when she added things the results were devastating She was like done for a month. She eat the wrong thing done for a month All the symptoms came back the depression came back She thought that her whole dietary theory was wrong because it lasted so long It was so extreme and it's like it took her two years to figure out that really what she could eat was beef and greens And then she figured out that she could only eat beef So the greens themselves. Well, look so what happened? Okay, so two years ago She said dad you have tried this diet because you have a lot of the same symptoms as me now I didn't have arthritis, but I had a lot of the other symptoms and I thought oh Christ. Okay, Michaela I can try anything for a month. She said try it for a month. I thought okay, whatever I can hang by my fingernails from the windowsill for a month. It's like it's just not that big a deal And so I I eliminated I went on a really low carb diet. Okay, so this is what happened. I Had gastric reflux disorder and I was snoring quite a lot. I Stopped snoring the first week. I thought what the hell that's supposed to be associated with weight loss Because I had gained some weight. I weighed about 212 pounds and I'm about six one and a half So that was my maximum weight. I stopped snoring, which was a great relief to Tammy That just quit and that's a big deal right because if you snore you have sleep apnea and then you don't sleep right It's like not a good thing. Okay next I Started waking up in the mornings. I'd never been able to wake up in the mornings my whole life I always had to stumble to the shower and then maybe I could wake up took me an hour and I felt terrible and So all of a sudden I woke up and it was like oh look at that I'm awake in the morning and I'm clear-headed and and things aren't gloomy and horrible. It's like well, isn't that weird? Then I lost seven pounds the first month. I thought Seven pounds that's a lot in a month and I'd already gone for a whole year on a sugar-free diet I didn't lose any weight and I'd been exercising sugar-free. But did you cut out bread? No, no, it was just no desserts No sugar. No, and I thought that might do it didn't make any difference at all seven pounds well, then Then I lost seven pounds the next month then I lost seven pounds the next month I lost seven pounds every month for seven months like I'd throw away all my clothes I went back to the same weight that I was when I was 26 and my psoriasis disappeared and I had floaters in my right eye and they cleared up and then The last thing that went away for me I was still having a bitch of a time with mood regulation and that sucked because when I changed my diet I didn't respond to antidepressants properly anymore They weren't working and so although I was getting better physically on a variety of ways like radical ways I was really having a bitch of a time regulating my mood and I was having sporadic really negative reactions to food when I ate something I shouldn't so that took about a year and a half to clear up and I was Still really anxious in the morning up to three months ago like horribly and then it would get better all day People said well, you're under a lot of stress and I thought yeah. Yeah, I've been under a lot of stress for like 10 years It's like it's a lot but it it wasn't any more stressful than helping my daughter deal with her illness That's for sure that no, this is something different and she said to me Quit eating greens and I thought oh really Jesus Michaela. I'm eating cucumbers lettuce Broccoli and chicken and beef. It's like I have to cut out the goddamn greens. It's like try it for a month. Okay Within a week I was 25% less anxious in the morning within two weeks 75% and I've been better every single day I'm better now probably than I've ever been in my life and I haven't been taking antidepressants for a whole year So I don't know what and I weigh 162 pounds like I have no I'm and I've actually gained musculature I've been doing some working out but not a lot and so I can sleep six hours a night. No problem I wake up in the morning. I'm awake if I take a 15-minute nap that used to take me an hour to recover from that's gone Here's the coolest thing. I've had gum disease since I was 25 That's been serious enough to have I've had to have minor surgical interventions scraping and that sort of thing to keep it at bay It's gone. I checked with my dentist before this last tour no inflammation And that's associated with heart disease by the way gum inflammation and gingivitis. It's a good risk factor heart disease It means the systemic inflammation is gone and it's not supposed to happen You're not supposed to recover from gingivitis and my gums are in perfect shape It's like what the hell so here's what happened. I lost 50 pounds It's like that's a lot Right. I'm nowhere near as hungry as I used to be my appetite's probably fallen by 70% I don't get blood sugar dysregulation problems I need way less sleep. I get up in the morning, and I'm fine. I'm not anxious. I'm not depressed. I don't have psoriasis My legs were numb on the sides. That's gone I'm certainly intellectually At my best at the moment, which is a great relief especially doing this tour Depression is gone I'm stronger. I can swim better And my gum disease is gone It's like what the hell and you've done you've done no blood work So you don't know what your lipid lipid profile is or no I'll get that done again when I go back to take any vitamins No, no I eat beef and salt and water That's it, and I never cheat ever not even a little bit no not soda. No wine Drink club soda. Well. That's not it's still water. Well. You know when you're down to that level though It's not Joe Joe. There's there's club soda. Which is really bubbly. There's Perrier. Which is sort of bubbly There's flat water, and there's hot water Distinctions start to become that is crazy. Well. We ate last night, and I ate what you ate just We both had that giant tomahawk. Yeah, I had wine though. Yeah I'm curious about this very curious, and I think I might try it But I eat a lot of vegetables. Yeah, but I don't have any problems like health problems. Hey, man like I'm not Disclaimer number two I am NOT recommending this to anyone however I have had however I have had many many people come up to me on the tour and say look I've been following your daughter's blog, and I've lost like a hundred pounds. I think what you lost a hundred pounds Yeah, I lost a hundred pounds in six months. I talked to a woman yesterday. She lost 15 pounds in one month. She was 70 It's like this is Here's a question why is everyone fat and stupid That's a question man Because it's new is it something's yes. It is it's new and it's not sedentary lifestyle that that Hypothesis doesn't seem to hold water There's something wrong with the way we're eating and the what's wrong is that we're eating way too many Carbohydrates I think but remember no extra shift the elimination of most carbohydrates has made a big shift in my life And I do cheat occasionally with bread occasionally with pasta I will I will go off with ice cream and things along those lines, but most of the time I'm just eating meat and vegetables most of the time and then I'll have a cheat day like you know once a week Yeah, yeah, especially if I go to dinner I'll have a little pasta and it doesn't seem to mess me up too bad, but I do feel shitty after I do it It's like for simple mouth pleasure. I'm allowing myself to feel tired Tired yeah, that's a big one man. Yeah, but like I yeah like well really I can go about six hours Yeah, now, and I'd so interesting to I can't believe I can wake up in the morning I got that's never happened to me in my whole life and when I was a kid 13 12 I had a bitch of a time waking up in the morning. It was just brutal. I just thought that's how it was This is what I mean again I'm not a nutritionist either But what's fascinating to me is I haven't heard any negative stories about people doing this well I have a negative story. Okay, okay one of the things that both Michaela, and I noticed was that when we Restricted our diet and then ate something we weren't supposed to the reaction to eating what we weren't supposed to was absolutely catastrophic What did you what did you switch to what did you eat rather? Well the worst response I think we're allergic to or allergic whatever the hell this is having an Inflammatory response to something called sulfites and we had some apple cider that had sulfites in it And that was really not good like I was done for a month that was the first time I talked to Sam Harris You were done for a month. Oh, yeah, it took me out for a month. It was awful really yeah Yeah, so I would say and what so this is right before this whole truth conversation with Sam Harrison During the mud during during you know you're I think the day I talked to Sam was like the worst day of my life Not because of talking to Sam, but it was just physical Jesus I was so dead, but I didn't want to not do it apple cider like what was it so fights in it What was it doing to you? Oh it it produced an Overwhelming sense of impending doom, and I seriously mean overwhelming like there's no way I could have lived like that if that would have lasted for See Michaela knew by that point that it would probably only last a month, and I was like a month Yeah, I'm fucking cider. Oh, yeah, I didn't sleep that that month. I didn't sleep for 25 days I didn't sleep at all. I didn't sleep at all for 25 days. How is that possible that I'll tell you how it's possible You lay in bed Frozen in something approximating terror for eight hours, and then you get up. Oh my god Oh, yeah, no, and this is from fucking cider from side. That's what we thought yeah I mean look again. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about okay. This is all a mystery to me The fact that my daughter was so sick see the one thing that I did know because I scoured the literature on arthritis when she was a kid the scientific literature and Because we were interested in the dietary connection and the only thing I could find that was reliable was that if people with arthritis Fasted their symptoms reliably went away. That's actually a well-documented finding, but then if they started to eat again Then there were symptoms came back, and I thought well what the hell Does it not matter what they eat? They can't be reactive to everything. It's like No, but they can be reactive to almost everything and the difference between everything and almost everything That's a big difference and so Michaela seems to be maybe me too and Tammy's on the same diet because she has autoimmune problems on her side of the family So Michaela seemed to inherit all of them your skin looks better. Oh Jesus Joe. I'm way better. Yeah You look like more vibrant. It's very strange. Thank you. Thank you dear. You're welcome But this he my point is like you you're saying that there's a that there is problems with this diet But that doesn't seem to be a problem with the diet It's a problem with deviating from the diet that your body becomes accustomed with well one of the Hypothesis that we've been pursuing and there's some justification for this in the scientific literature is that the reason that you lay on layers of fat is because the fat acts as a buffer between you and the toxic things that you're eating because fat is actually an organ it has functions other than merely the storage of Calories and maybe when you strip out that protective layer, then you're more sensitive to what you shouldn't be eating This is all speculative hypothesis, right? Or maybe you sensitize yourself by removing it from your constant diet. I don't bloody well know Well, I would think it would be much more likely that because you think about people who are alcoholics They develop a tolerance to alcohol Yeah You get off of that and then you have a drink and your tolerances are shot and then you immediately have a Adverse reaction to the alcohol. Yeah, same thing with marijuana. Yeah, when people do it all the time your body becomes tolerant Well, I think I think that the layering of fat on might be part of the tolerance mechanism Mmm, so it's not merely a matter of caloric intake. It's a matter of of Toxic caloric intake buffered by whatever it is that fat is doing as a neuroendocrine organ But again, like I said, I'm out of my depth here, but you know the whole Everyone's out of their depth the goddamn food pyramid was made by the Department of Agriculture not the Department of Health It wasn't predicated on any scientific studies whatsoever. We shouldn't we shouldn't be eating massive quantities of corn syrup We we eat way too many carbohydrates Michaela posted a paper the other day a doctor has successfully treated type 1 diabetes with a carnivore diet type 1 Not type 2. So that's bloody impressive Yeah, it's It's very curious to me because you're talking about the one adverse reaction, which is when you deviate it from the diet Yeah, what I'm talking about is when I read people's accounts of trying this diet It's almost universally positive. Yeah, I know but again, that's right. Well, it's problem with anecdote, right? I mean, I'm not just sure and it's the same with all these stories that I'm collecting as I'm touring and you know People lots of people have come up to me and said look I lost 45 pounds in the last three months I think yeah, I think well, it's shocking to me. I think well What do you make of that say? Well, I can't believe it. Well, who can I couldn't believe it 50 pounds It's like first of all, I didn't know I had 50 pounds to lose You know, I thought I was maybe 20 pounds heavier than I should have been should have been 185 something like that I guess that's 25 to 30 pounds. That was the maximum thought no. No, I lost I meant 162 and I was at 212. So what's that? 50 50 balance. It's a lot of weight Jesus. I threw all my clothes away It's I can't believe it. Well, I saw you last night I was like you're so slim like your your stomach is completely flat and this is not a lean mean fighting Yeah, man, and you're not a an exercise fanatic. It's not like you're starving yourself. It's not like you're going That's another thing I should say to people if you want to try a diet like this you eat enough meat and fat So you were not hungry. Okay, you can't get hungry You're not eating enough if you're hungry and if you're hungry You're gonna cheat and it's gonna drive you stark raving mad The other thing that was really cool is like I really liked sweets Like I kind of lived on peanut butter sandwiches and chocolate milk. No, not really but that was my go-to food You know both of which were terrible for me But after I stopped eating carbohydrates for a month the carbohydrate cravings went away You know last night when we were out for dinner somebody ordered bread pudding and I bloody loved bread pudding with caramel and and and ice Cream and so it was sitting there and I could smell it like you know, I thought I could go all Fantastic mr. Fox on that bread pudding and just tear it down in about 15 seconds But it wasn't it wasn't as intense as a craving for a cigarette if you're next ex smoker It was like I'd be really nice to eat that but like my appetite declined by about 75% and that's been permanent That's been so there's a perverse thing for you. I eat way less and now I'm not as hungry Okay. Well, how does that make sense? Well, you're not eating way less you're eating way less things. Yes Yes, you had a 30 ounce steak last. Yes. Yes Not to be hungry, although it didn't look like it was 30 no, no, no, no small 30 out of steak I think it starts out 30 ounces before they cook it right loses a considerable right right right fatty, right? But that's the other thing too. You must have to get a lot of fat. Yeah Well, I eat fatty cuts of steak and yeah Michaela is buying fat directly from the butcher store and we cook that up cut it into small pieces and fried up till it's crispy Wow, it's actually quite delicious It's not bread pudding with ice cream, but it's not funny. You mean I know it's so ridiculous I want your blood profile. I want to find out what's going on with you because One of the big misconceptions when it comes to cholesterol and saturated fat and food is that if you eat dietary cholesterol Though it affects your blood cholesterol levels. It's not it's a super common misconception Well those so the thing about clinical studies with diet are virtually impossible to conduct because you just can't you can't conduct a proper randomly distributed controlled Experiment is too hard. So a lot of what we're trying to do is pull out information from correlations, right? You can't do it Which is one of the real problems with correlating meat with cancer and diabetes and all these different diseases is because people are eating A bunch of shit with that. Oh, yeah, and they have different Lifestyle profiles like there's just endless numbers of confounding variables and you only need one confounding variable That's that's relevant to screw up the study, right? You can't get that information with correlational studies We tried because it's impossible to do the studies. But how many people are incredulous? I mean when they're how many people when they're hearing about this? Oh everybody Everybody well you are not but you know you're interested in this sort of thing But they should be incredulous like when people make absurd claims is like oh Well, I had 50 health problems and I stopped eating everything but meat and they went away. It's like oh sure It's like yeah. Well wasn't you dying? So yeah, and I see the results and I know it's an anecdote I bloody well understand that and I'm highly skeptical about all of this But I'm telling you so that's why I'm telling you what happened to me and what happened to my daughter and also what happened to my wife because she's Tammy was always in good shape and she's exercised a lot and she reduced to the to the Pure carnivore died about a month ago. She lost like 12 pounds and she was already slim She's back to the same way she was when she was 21 She's she's like 58 You know and she doesn't look 58. I can tell you that So it's really fascinating. It's really fascinating because I just As a person who studied diet for many years I would assume that you need phytonutrients I would assume you need vitamin supplements like vitamin C for example turns out if you don't eat carbohydrates You don't need vitamin C. Huh who would have guessed that how's that work? I don't I don't remember Michaela outlined a paper for me vitamin C is necessary for carbohydrate metabolism But if you don't if again remember everyone listening. I am NOT an expert in this field, right? so But but I want you to get your blood tested because I think if Be pretty funny if it was in good shape. Yeah, it would be and I'd like to find out what your nutrient levels are And where they're coming from. I mean what what? Getting a little cramping in my toes from time to time so I'm not sure about potassium or magnesium That's not a possibility. Well, that's how easy to supplement. It's very easy Which is why I'm concerned about like and also minerals, you know, and certain minerals you're getting from vegetables that you're probably not getting Yeah, well, this is all like look it seems not hard to supplement that stuff though colloidal minerals, you know There's some mineral pills you could take plenty of well, there are people there are people who basically lived on meat You know the Inuit did the mess. I basically did there's some supplementation but not a lot Yeah, and apparently if you do a carnivore diet, you're supposed to eat more organ meat and I do some of that But not a lot but I can tell you like I'm I mean Well, look I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't producing positive results. Yeah, it's not like it's fun I mean for a while. Well, it makes you a social pariah. It's like let's invite the Peterson's over. Oh, yeah They don't eat anything. Oh, we have other friends It's like well, that's how it works. It's not malevolence, right? It's just if you're a pain No one invites you out. Right? So so I'm a social pain and an ideological pain and now I'm a nutritional pain How's like I know friends how difficult is it when you're trying to get breakfast? Like what do you do when you well lots of times when we're traveling we cook So we usually stay in places where you can cook. Okay, but most places you can get a steak Mm-hmm. And so that's mostly what we do. I've been traveling in a motorhome. And so we've been cooking in the motorhome And so not carry beef jerky with me, which we make. Wow. Yeah, it's crazy You make your own beef jerky. Well, it's easy We have a dehydrator and you just basically put salt on and throw in the dehydrator. So that works pretty well You anticipate continuing this? Well, I ever cod forever is a long time I'd like to be able to eat more things but I'm gonna experiment with that very very very very very cautiously I'm gonna add mushrooms next because maybe I could eat them. Well, this is why I'm asking there's Positive benefits that a lot of people achieve and and experience when they switch to a vegan diet Yeah, one of the things it is is you get off of the standard American diet with a lots of refined sugars and a lot of preservatives and bullshit and then you find Positive benefits Chris Kresser has gone into depth about this but then over time the nutritional bent Deficiencies in that start to wear on your health. Yeah, and I'm wondering well Well, it's certainly possible. Well, certainly eventually this diet will kill me No life will well, you're right Biology will yes unless so it is science intervenes It might be that for some people of a vegan diet is or vegan diet is it preferable? Well, there are to a standard American diet For sure to a standard American diet, but also there's so much biological variability Yeah, you know the things that bother some people don't bother other people at all And that's that's something that we got to take into consideration. Yeah. Well, that's why I don't want to universalize from my experience You know, but but this is what's happened to me and this is what's happened to my wife and my daughter So and all of its been well with Michaela. It's it's miraculous. I cannot believe it the last time I saw it made me cry I've never seen her look like that. She looks so good. She's so healthy and all of her other joints are not experiencing any problems And she's taking no Immuno modulators at all no medication none and she was on him for Jesus. Yes more medication than you can shake a stick at methotrexate Which is basically they use it to treat cancer. It's uh, it's uh, what's the cancer treating drugs called? Whatever. I don't remember at the moment. She was on Enbrel which really really helped but but later open to bacterial infection. So she always had pneumonia in the fall But Enbrel really helped and Then heavy doses of antidepressants and Ritalin and Jesus it was how long she'd been on this carnivore diet. Oh God, she's only been eating meat. It's got to be least six to eight months now Wow, and does she get blood work done? Uh, yep, and her blood work. I won't comment on that I don't know the details of her blood work So, I don't know the answer to that hmm, it's fascinating I'm curious I'm considering trying it for a while. The problem is I eat so much game meat I know there's not a fat get some fat. Yeah, that's the trick there try it for a month See what happens you what the hell a month, you know, it's just a month. Yeah. No months not hard. Yeah interesting