Joe Rogan asks Jamie Kilstein About Being a Reformed SJW

Hello freak bitches. Welcome back to Civilization, Jamie Kilstein. Hi. Dude, so a lot has changed since the last time we spoke. Yeah. And for people who don't know, you used to be the host of, or one of the co-hosts of Citizen Radio, like super progressive, lefty podcast, and you were a vegan, but now you made a steak with Stan Hope. All hell's broken loose. I don't know what's happening. I don't know where I am. Yeah, I remember I was thinking about being back in the studio and I never met Jamie before and I was like, all right, everyone's being really nice to me. I'm like, literally feel like I'm like, this isn't a trick. Joe sent me very nice emails and I'm like, but I'm a very trickable guy. And I came in and yeah, everyone's just lovely and nice. Yeah, man, a lot of change. I went into hiding. I went into hiding. What happened? Because I only got like a peripheral story of like what went sideways. All right. Like some people, girls accused you of... Well yeah, this is, look, this is the fucking worst time for me to be like, you know what, now that everyone's talking about Weinstein, it's time for Kilstein to make his return. Weinstein, Kilstein. Dude, it's too similar. I like road scene. Yeah, it's like very like Jewy and predatory. When I wrote Stan Hope, when the Weinstein thing happened, I was like, hey man, you want to like push off this return? He's like, you're fine. Yeah, so here's what happened. So it kind of started where I was a comic for years and as it got more progressive, it got more into that judgmental territory, I guess, where I feel like I definitely became one of those people who would just be on Twitter all day. And instead of sort of talking about real issues, it just becomes like, who are we mad at that day? Like who used the wrong word that day? Who can we get fired that day? And it's Twitter mob stuff and it happens on the right and it happens on the left. And it's just like kind of just people who are sad who just live like in their box, which I was like one of them, right? That's why I think this is such an important conversation because you've kind of stepped away from it and you see it for what it is. I think people don't realize it when they're caught up in the swirl of it, the momentum of it, that it's almost like a natural human behavior pattern. It's very tribal. Yeah. Well, it's tribal and it's physically addictive. I've gone back and forth with drinking and not drinking a pot and not smoking a pot. And I can tell you that the thing I was addicted to the most was Twitter. It was refreshing Twitter. It was like you literally get dopamine hits from that. I remember when I first tried to get off Twitter, I was fighting with some fucking stranger in my living room on Twitter. And I was like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm going to go take a walk. I don't need to be involved in this guy's life. I closed it. And before I even knew it, I'm like walking in the park fighting with some other guy on my fucking phone. And I'm like, it follows you. If someone's calling you a cunt, they're calling you a cunt at dinner with your girlfriend. They're calling you a cunt when you go to your brother's graduation and you're just like refreshing it, waiting for someone to tell you that you're good. And sort of so that I got addicted to that more than anything. And especially when I finally got an audience with like the left of left. I mean, just to be very clear, it's not like I'm going to come on this show and suddenly like do a fucking Sean Michaels heel turn and be like, I'm Johnny rape joke. Those fucking bitches all had it coming. You're just being a person. Well, and that's what I like wasn't doing for a very long time is I feel like I don't want to speak for people, but I feel like with me, I always needed something to like define me. Right. Where it's like, I'm a progressive or I'm a, I'm a vegan or I'm just jujitsu and whatever I, whatever I would become kind of currently obsessed with, I would sort of like throw the other shit away and kind of like shit all over that. Um, because you know, a lot of times I would feel like a failure. Like that's really where the progressive, um, I mean, I still hold a lot of progressive ideas, but that's when I went from comic to, um, political. It wasn't that I like, Mmm. Wanted to make comedy my, my like nemesis, right? It was that, well, I felt, I feel like I've, I failed. Um, you know, I dropped out of school to start a comedy at like 17 and I did the things you're supposed to do. Um, and yeah, I did Montreal a couple of times and, uh, Conan once, uh, and I had this year where it seemed like things were going to happen. And then, you know, I was kind of that guy that people were like, Oh, we like you. We can't do anything with you, but we like you. And so I started to kind of make my own audience and the audience was fucking great. It was like a bunch of, you know, when that show started, it was a bunch of just weird, um, sweet, nerdy comedy fans. And then everything just started getting pushed, uh, to, to crazy vote. Like when I knew shit, I said this on Doug's podcast, when I knew shit got nuts is when I was defending a trans person. So already like a left issue, like I'm doing the right thing, right? And I called this transphobic guy, an idiot. And we had an email that said, uh, while we appreciate you using, uh, defending trans people, the word idiot is ableist. And I want it to be like, you're retarded. You're a retarded cunt. Like I want, for people, people, ableist is making fun of people who don't know. I don't know what it means anymore. I thought ableist was just like that guy's in a wheelchair. Fuck him. But I guess like all these different terms, these everyday terms, like I guess idiot is ableist because fucking, I don't know. There was an idiot in a wheelchair. No, no, no, no. It's ableist because if you're not an idiot, if your brain works well, you're mocking someone whose brain doesn't work well. They are not able to think correct. Oh, okay. So you're an ableist. Joe, you just out progressive to me. Well, I'm pretty progressive. I know. I mean, I, I look like a meathead and I espouse some right wing ideas. But when it comes to like social issues, I'm very progressive. That's why we became friends. You saw a gay rights thing I did on Twitter. Yeah. Like you weren't, that's why. Um, but I, but I, what I saw happening, I mean, I mean, in the review, but what I saw happening with you and what I see happening just in general online, you know, I mean, I was on citizens radio when you guys first started. Yeah, you were on our poster. Yeah. Well, I think there's something that happened where people around the time of Occupy Wall Street, things got really heated up and people started moving way left and then some folks started moving way right. And I really truly believe to this day, the way left is what started the whole Trump movement. It's in response to the way left. I think all these shitheads got together and they didn't like being accused of being assholes or ableists or rapists or whatever it is by the ultra progressive. So they went far right and alt right. I mean the alt right essentially was people who didn't identify with these old men who were bankers, but they also didn't want to have anything to do with these ultra lefty progressives that were calling everyone a racist, everyone a rapist. Every man's a piece of shit. Oh, I, I, I did all of that. Yeah. I straight up did all of that. And I think one of the things with the ultra left and maybe this is me like, uh, you know, maybe this is me desperately trying to defend myself, but I think in a weird way it was harder for me and it's harder for a lot of people to see themselves slipping into the extreme left. And so like what I mean by that is I never thought when I heard people say the extreme right is as, is as bad as the extreme left. I was always like, fuck you because like the extreme left isn't like, you know, bombing Palestine being like, give us free healthcare or like let trans people piss in the right bathroom. Like, you know, uh, even that like, uh, the shooter, not in Vegas, but that DC shooter, like he was like a fucking crazy guy. He wasn't a blossom. Sorry. He wasn't like shooting the politicians screaming like, you know, I mean he liked the Bernie Sanders page, but it wasn't like we are launching, uh, wars against Islam for, uh, Christianity. It wasn't, um, you know, uh, what we're doing this for, for free market capitalism. It was to me, the extreme left. When I heard people say it, and the reason I would scoff when someone like you would say it is because I'm like, dude, like the left should just be like stand for like equality. Everyone has the right to an education. Everyone has the right, um, to not go fucking hungry, um, to have health insurance. Um, gay people can do whatever they want with their dicks. Um, the end by bag and vaginas and vaginas. Um, really should be essentially like that on both sides. The right, what, what being a conservative used to be with small government and people having the government stay out of your lives and so they do the opposite morphing totally where it's like, we will stay out of your lives, but we'll be like in your pussy. If you want a fucking abortion, we'll, uh, tell you like, who's dick you can suck. Abortion thing is where it gets real squirrely, right? Because the abortion thing is essentially it's a religious thing and it's a religious thing. It's, and it's a moral thing. And it's, it's also what is an abortion? I mean, you are ending a life, but you're ending a life inside a woman's body. Well, when is it okay to do that? Is it okay to do that at one day? And does the grown woman's life matter more than the cells or more than? Well, yeah, that gets to a point, but initially it's like, when is it defined as a life? I mean, if, if the moment of conception, if that moment, if 30 seconds later, it's an abortion, like if you could hold your breath and then the baby's dead, you know, like if we found out that the moment a guy comes at a woman, if she could just hold her breath for a minute, that baby will die. Yeah. I mean, is that, why does that sound worse? Baby murder. But, but it is, look, abortion is fucking weird, right? And I'm pro choice, but abortion is weird because like when you, when it gets older, when you're four weeks in, six weeks in, it's still legal and it's a fucking little baby. I mean, it is a little baby. Look, man, look at it. It's, it looks like a little baby. Sometimes they have a heartbeat if it gets to a certain age. What's going on? Like I, I'm not saying that it should be my choice to define whether or not someone should do it or not do it, but it's very disingenuous when people frame this argument as it's a woman's right to choose, period. And that's what it is. It's not just that. It's also killing a baby. I don't know, man, feminists don't like me anymore. So I'm like, coat hanger up. I'm out of this debate. I don't give a shit. Well, it's, it's a, it's a, it should be an honest debate because it is a very controversial and a very nuanced issue. So it's not as simple as, you know, the right doesn't want a woman to choose and stay out of my body. It's not just stay out of your body. It's like, what are we doing? We're killing a baby that's in a woman's body at what age should that be legal? Well, and I think that's the whole thing that we were talking about before with these like echo chambers where, you know, for the first time ever, I've been listening to sort of like both sides of issues. First time ever. I mean, recently. Yeah. Well, because like you just, again, you, the majority of people like, yeah, I'll totally fess up. Sure. Like I didn't ask a lot of follow-up questions because your Facebook feed is curated and your, your Twitter is all of your friends. And for the most part, people you agree with and you know, comedy was actually comedy. Now like I've been listening to like a ton of like backlogs of your shows. Cause once I was just like, Oh, he doesn't hate me. I can listen to the show again. Great. I never hated. No, I know. I never hated. I never hated anything to the show and like hearing pretty equal, you know, progressive to conservative ideals. And comedy was always kind of this cool place where you could explore ideas because comedy and jokes and laughter would sort of take the, take the edge off a little bit. You know what I mean? And you could actually talk about issues. And once I kind of became part of that crew that would even shit on comedy, then it was like, well, I can watch democracy now and I guess that's it. And I have my, and I would feel fucking stupid. I hung out with journalists and hang out with comics. I hung out with people where I was sort of like felt like the joke monkey and like the high school dropout part of me would get really like, you felt like the joke. Did you feel like you had to be funny when you were around those people? Yeah, because when I tried to say something like political or that I thought was smart, it would just be kind of like a hushed. Because I'm not that smart. I'm good at like telling stories. I'm good at like, I think listening and asking like decent questions. But I was never like a fucking intellectual. And a lot of that crowd is. And that's good. We need those people, right? But I would, it was really easy for me to be like, just shut up. You know what I mean? But is this all in your mind? I mean, you're a human being, right? I mean, if you're just talking to these people, you're not an unintelligent person. No, I think so. Is this just an insecurity that you carried around with you when you were around them? Yes. Holy. Yeah, a lot of it was. Because you were venturing. The reason why I ask you this, your show was sort of, in a lot of ways, venturing into the world of journalism. Oh, so that's where I was going. That's right. That's where I was going like sort of way back, which was, you know, the show, the show started as a comedy show. It was called Drunken Politics before it was called Citizen Radio. I think we changed it maybe around Occupy, but it was comedy. And we had progressive ideas, so that's sort of what we talked about, but it wasn't that we had to talk about. It became this thing where any progressive issue in the news that day or on Twitter, we had to talk about that day. And it sort of lost, I don't know. Did it also, sorry to interrupt you here, but did it also, you guys went to a sort of a subscription service? No, we actually, no, the thing I'm really proud of about that show and why I'm definitely bummed out I lost a lot of those fans or whatever was we started ages ago. We were pretty early on with podcasts and we never had commercials and we never had, you didn't really get anything if you paid. It was voluntary. It was like a shitty version of NPR where it was like everybody gets the show for free, right? Everyone gets to be a socialist, everyone gets the show for free. If you can't afford $5 a month, $10 a month, $50. Right, but a lot of people do that way. I mean, Sam Harris does that. Totally, yeah, yeah, we just didn't really have, we couldn't afford to send you a tote bag or whatever. But yeah, so it wasn't a pay model. Everything we said anybody could hear. We occasionally did little goofy bonus shows for subscribers, but that was it. That was the question. So there was some shows that only people who subscribed could do, but most of it was. Yeah, not a lot though, yeah, and it was five days a week too, so it was a lot. That's another thing. I mean, you're not gonna fucking show five days a week. You gotta dig for things to be pissed off about to not be redundant. Yeah, I've done five day a week shows and I don't think I'm at my best five days a week. I think four days a week is where I start to break down anything after four days a week, unless I'm doing fight companions, which are just a goof. That's just hanging out and watching fights. That's easy. Yeah. You don't wanna get stale or bored. You don't wanna force it into being a job. No. I think what I got out of you was that you were getting a lot of praise and you were being hailed. Like I saw Jezebel wrote something where they called you a great example of an ally. Well, that was pre this year, Jezebel. Yeah, but I mean, but that expression is a very odd expression. I mean, I hate to sound like this disingenuous egalitarian, but I really do believe this. I mean, we should be allies to each other. We all should be. This idea that like there's a goddamn team war going on and that Jamie Kilstein is out there bucking for the females. That's what it's like. It's like that's what they end up with. But they reward that. This is the thing. It's like some, and this is not to single out Jezebel because I think they've got some great writers. There's something that happens with people when you write a lot of mean, very critical stuff. You become this attack machine and this is how you promote your ideas. This is how you push your agenda by attacking people that some of them fucking deserve it for sure. Some of them are definitely assholes, but it becomes almost like the currency that you're dealing. Yeah, and that goes back to the insecurity, right? By the way, my dad. But let me finish. Oh, yeah, sorry. Sorry. Is that when you're an attack machine like that and not saying the Jezebel is, but there's a lot of the blogs that are attack machines. When you're an attack machine, and if you can be an ally on the other side, or not even on the other side, but an ally to the attack machine, and then they single you out as that, it gives you this feeling like, oh, I'm not going to get attacked by them. This is good. And you reinforce that behavior by ramping up the types of things that you say that they like, that they appreciate. And it becomes a sort of weird exchange where it's like implied. I think this is what a lot of what goes on in political circles as well. There's not as much bribery as there is an understanding that if you do what we want you to do, and you say what we want you to do, then you're in. Then you're on the good side. Yeah, and that goes back to that insecurity. And I think a lot of people are insecure. I think we're all insecure. Yeah, everyone is. And when you do find that tribe, and you do find people who are going, yeah, and the more you attack on Twitter, because not just blogs, like remember, like individuals on Twitter, like me, like when I would see like who's getting piled on today. Okay, cool. This writer wrote something about mansplaining. Don't need to read the article. What's the hashtag? That's the hashtag. I'm going to say the fucking meanest funny thing, because I'm a comic and I'm funnier than journalists. And then famous people are going to retweet me or fave me. And then I get to feel like a fucking civil rights hero. Because that's what would happen where like, I would literally tweet even if I not even a joke, even if I tweeted something sincere, and this like sucks to admit, but even if I tweeted like hashtag black lives matter. I'm refreshing that shit to be like to quest love favorite it. You know what I mean? Like I'm not doing it to be, you know, and then you can feel good about yourself. Then you can go not saying I did this, but you can go on the street and you can fucking ignore the homeless person. And you can cross the street when you see like the scary black guy, because you're just like, well, I'm technically the Rosa Parks of Twitter because I fucking tweeted that joke at that writer who said that fucking thing that no one's going to remember tomorrow. But we were all angry about today.