Innocence Project Ambassador's Detail How Wrongful Convictions Happen

It's important, you know, I can't help talking about the death penalty when we talk about short eclamatory because in this country a lot of people still believe in death penalty and I don't. And what I say to people who believe in the death penalty is I respect your view, but what percentage of innocent people are you okay with executing, right? Because the system is fundamentally flawed. And even if the system was reformed in all the ways that we could sit here and think of, right, and I have some ideas on that, there's still going to be errors. There's always going to be, there are always going to be errors made. And so you have to accept that there are going to be mistakes. We know that like in Florida where Josh represents James Daly, and again we did a podcast episode about his case as well, James is either going to be the 100th guy executed by the state of Florida or the 30th guy exonerated from death. Clemente was the 29th and I'm representing who should be the 30th. So they're not, even if all the people they executed were guilty and we know they weren't, right? We know certain people like Jesse Tiferro who was absolutely innocent executed by the state of Florida in that gruesome execution where the electric chair, quote unquote malfunction and his head caught on fire and they had to electrocute him three times. Even if they got those right, they aren't even batting 700, right? And then in Louisiana, you know, to your point before Joe, a guy named John Thompson, rest in peace, was a good friend of mine. He came within a month of being executed by the state of Louisiana when an attorney, an investigator staring into a microscope and saw the DNA evidence that proved that he was not guilty of this murder and he was ultimately exonerated. And he wrote an opinion piece in the New York Times where he said, I don't understand why the prosecutor who prosecuted, because he proved that they knew he was innocent before they prosecuted him, right? He knew it and it was absolutely proven that was not in question. So he said, I don't understand why that prosecutor is not being charged with attempted murder. They tried to kill me and they knew I was innocent and I've proven that. But what happens to the prosecutor? Nothing, nothing, nothing. I've been saying this for a long time, that there's a real problem with human beings when it comes to anything where there's a game and the problem with policing and prosecuting people and convicting people. And it's a game and meaning that there's winners and losers. And when there's winners and losers, people cheat. There's a lot of people with poor character and they just want to win and they get caught up in this game. I mean, you can call it a game, you can call it a pursuit, whatever you want to call it. There's an end that you want to achieve if you're successful. And if you don't achieve that end, you're unsuccessful. So when people are trying to achieve this end, they will do all kinds of things. And it's just inherently a part of human beings that are weak. People have weak character, people that are morally flawed, they do things like that. They'll know they're wrong and they do it anyway. They know that someone is innocent and they pursue it anyway because they want that W. It's a real problem with people. I've seen it with, we've all seen it playing games with people. Kids do it, adults do it. When you see a grown adult cheating at cards, just a game of cards, it's an embarrassing thing. Who are you? You really care. You hit it on the head so much. But that's it, right? It's a game. Listen, it is so, even in the prosecutor in Clemente's case, and this is not some one off circumstance, Joe, you could not have articulated it better. It is, you've ever been in an argument with someone and it's like with my wife sometimes she'll be like, no, you left the keys here. And I'll be like, no, I know I gave them back to you. And then as you're in the argument, you remember, you know what, she's right. I actually... Right. And you have a decision to make. Am I going to be the bigger person and say, I fucked up or am I going to continue down this course? Unfortunately, and I think Joe hit on the fundamental psychology is almost like, you're right, it's so binary, it's either win or lose. And I was begging, I mean, I'm an emotional dude, I'm mushy, and I had to weep to this prosecutor in Clemente's case. I had the real murderer on the stand and I got my first question to her was how many times have you threatened to murder someone? Watch how dug in they get. She said never. I had a dash cam video of her saying to a cop blasting her head against the partition, I'm going to fucking murder you, you motherfucker. So I played the video for her and I said, what about that? She said, oh, I didn't listen. I didn't watch. And so that was you. That was your voice, right? And you know, I got her and then she says, well, I black out. I say things and do things and I black out and block them out. I finally got her to admit and said, isn't it true that you may have murdered your mother and your grandmother and blocked it out? And she said, yes. And I had to sit in a room with this prosecutor. And I don't know if it was just like, you know, like an angry cry, because I'm angry that he won't just say I fucked up here. We fucked up and we got the wrong person. And I'm weeping to him saying, can't you just admit that you made a mistake? And you're right. It is that I have seen it so many times with prosecutors, it's all about getting the W. And they just want to admit that they're wrong. And I think that there's something deeper about human psychology working there where the powers that be won't admit. I mean, I hate to say it, but Kamala Harris was no different here in California. I mean, she fiercely defended, you know, wrongful convictions. Why? I mean, this isn't like made up. There's like a huge investigative piece in the New York Times about it. It's not something that's germane to Florida. It's in California. It's in New York. And God forbid you're in the South, you know? And it's a real problem. And I don't know how to solve it. It's not like they're going to completely overhaul the system and stop the whole, the way it's set up now with a judge and prosecutors and attorneys. And they're not going to change it. I mean, the system is in place. There's too many cases, right? They're constantly hearing new cases to completely overhaul and change this method of policing and convicting people. It would require a massive undertaking. And that's why we're so appreciative that you give us this forum, because there are so many amazing people that, you know, are that it really literally takes being in the bowels, if you will, of the system and getting it beneath your fingernails and standing up to and speaking truth to power. It's got to be terrifying to be there, too, to know that someone is willing to convict someone that they know is innocent because they want to win. And there's more, there's so many factors that go into wrongful convictions, Joe. We see them again and again. Tunnel vision is one, right? They lock in on you. They decide you're the guy. And then more new evidence comes in and says he did it. They don't want to hear it. They just, it's a psychological thing. It's also blind ambition. And there are so many factors that I think some of them are preventable. And when we set out to do these podcasts, whether it's the wrongful conviction one or junk science that Josh is the host of that just came out or even the false confession series that we did, our goal is to educate the public because your listeners are going to, you and me, everyone, Jamie over here, the engineer's going to end up on a jury at some point, right? And it may be having, you may be holding somebody's life in your hands. And it's important for you to understand that the people that you hope that are going to be telling you the truth that you respect because they're authority figures, right? I grew up respecting uniforms and everything else. And I still do. But the fact is they may not be telling the truth. Just because somebody says they're an expert, that's what Josh talks about in his podcast, doesn't mean they're really an expert. They may be talking about things that are actually junk science. And furthermore, they're allowed to lie in the interrogation room. And this is something if we get nothing else across today, I always tell people when I do talks and on my show, I talk about the fact that if you get picked up and brought in for questioning and people who are innocent wave their Miranda rights, 85% of people wave their Miranda rights anyway, people who are innocent almost always do because they don't think they have anything to hide. They think I'll just go in. I'll tell them what, you know, like I was in there, I was with my mom, whatever was. And I'd go home. And they may not say that you're a suspect at all. They may say, we just want to ask you a few questions. So the answer is, if that happens to you, the only thing you should say is, this is my, I'm Joe Rogan and I want a lawyer or whatever your name is, whoever's listening. Those are the only words you should say because they're not your friends. When you can get talked in that interrogation room, crazy shit happens. They don't always beat people up. They don't need to. They can use coercive psychological tactics that can get people to confess to crimes that they didn't commit. And once you start talking and you're in that little airless room, we've seen it on TV, right? And they start the good cop, bad cop and they intimidate you and they threaten you with the death penalty and they're allowed to lie. Now, why are they allowed to lie? That's a great question, Joe. I mean, in other Western countries, they're not, but here they are. So they can sit there and especially, and you know, the people that are most likely to falsely confess are people, adolescents, right? Anyone whose brain is not fully formed, and we know that your brain is not fully formed until you're 25 and military veterans, interestingly enough, and they're disproportionately affected by this because they're used to obeying authority figures, right? And following orders. And so the Norfolk Four, a classic case of that for four guys, confessed to a crime that didn't commit. And none of them did it. Central Park Five is another good example. Right. Those were just kids. They were just young, teenage kids. And, you know, they can sit there and they can threaten you with the death penalty. And they can sit there and go, Joe, listen, we got your buddy in the next room. He's not even there. And he says he saw you do it. We got your fingerprints on the knife, Joe. What are you talking about? Best thing for you is to confess. And Joe asked, you asked the critical question, which is why are they allowed to do it? Because there's not a law. No one has the balls, all these blowhard politicians have the balls to introduce, because, you know, they're afraid to piss off the police union because they'll lose that vote. Right. To introduce legis- God damn it. The police union should be the ones who are clamoring for that. Right. That introduce legislation- Especially now, right? Introduce legislation. Right. Especially now. Introduce legislation that makes it a crime, right, to lie to a suspect. Think about the mind fuck that's going on here. Remember, the psychology is we're going to deprive you of sleep, we're going to deprive you of food, we're going to scare the living shit out of you, and we're going to lie to you. We're going to lie to you and make you- you ever see that Chris Rock bit where he's like, cop pulled me over and after a while I'm like, damn, maybe I fucking did do it. Right. It's like that shit is going on. And it's like, you know, you're like, maybe I did something and didn't remember it. That's what they start getting you to believe because if they're telling me, they're saying, Joe, listen, we have- how the fuck do you explain how your DNA is on the victim? How do you explain that? And you're thinking to yourself, I can't fucking explain that. A, I didn't do it, but maybe, I don't know, maybe I did something and don't remember it. And then there's this, which is you'll hear from a lot of people that are victims of coercive interrogations is, I figured I would just tell them what they wanted to hear, get out of the room and then sort it out. Right. Right. And they'll say to you, listen, you're just a kid. No one's going to believe that you committed this gruesome murder, right? You just got to, my partner's crazy. I don't know what he's going to do to you, but while he's out of the room, let me tell you, kid, the best thing for you to do is just sign the piece of paper and, you know, we'll sort this out later. You'll be fine. But now you've just signed your own death warrant because juries can't understand. Can you ask people, would you ever confess to a crime you didn't commit? You ask the first hundred people, you see, they all say, no, no, no, I'm smart. I would never do that. But the thing is, they don't realize 25% of the DNA exonerations, approximately 25% involve false confessions. So just process that, right? That's how many people confessed because they're good at it. And some of them are, yeah, that's right. The cops are great at it. Some of them may be mentally challenged, right? The cops are. And it's also a game. It's a game to get you. It's the same kind of game. It's a game to get you to confess. And it goes on even after the conviction has been overturned, like in Clemente's case, like in my own adopted daughter, Nora Jackson's case, where the Tennessee Supreme Court unanimously overturned her conviction for murdering her own mother. And in their ruling, they excoriated the prosecutors for having played so loose with the rules, right, to say the least. And yet they came back in and said, listen, we're going to try you again unless you take a plea. Jesus Christ. And most people say to me, well, let the kid try you again for the same thing. But they can because the higher court, when they overturn your conviction, the indictment still stands, the original indictment. And most prosecutors will say, well, you know what, it's a long time ago and we've been proven wrong and, you know, we didn't let it go. But if they really are vindictive, they may say, you know what, I want to protect this conviction at all. Well, let's not forget that every time we convict an innocent person, the real perpetrator remains free. Right. And that even if you're someone who may be, you know, pretty hard line, hardcore on, you know, law and order, whatever, you know, a lot of your listeners come from different, you know, walks of life, different viewpoints. But everybody can agree that we want the person, especially these vicious violent crimes, these brutal crimes, we should all want the real perpetrator off the street and not for the convenient target to just get, you know, you know, manhandled and brutalized by the system. And then that other perpetrator oftentimes goes on to commit more terrible crimes and creates more innocent victims.