Edward Norton Talks Rickson Gracie with Joe Rogan

How did that scene come to play where you were with Hicks and Gracie? Oh, because I studied Aikido when I was in college. I was studying Aikido and then when I was studying Aikido, Hoist Gracie won the, you know, that was when it was like the late 80s, right? 93. 93, okay. Close, five years later. Yeah, so he, right, so, but he, I became aware, oh no, that's it, that you're right, you're right, because I was in New York, I was studying Aikido in New York and, and Hoist Gracie won that first UFC. And like I said, I'm six feet tall, but I literally, if I'm in shape, I weigh like 155, right? And Hoist, when he won that was? 176. Like six feet and under 180, right? Yep. And I remember it melted everybody's mind. Yeah. I mean, it melted everybody's mind and I, so I became interested in them and, and what they were doing, honestly, do you, do you know that, you know, in the story in there at Nat family's whole crazy story about being, you know, they were Scottish, the grandfather was Scottish, right? And he was like a, a counselor, he was a customs, he was a customs official in Brazil. And because he had a good relationship with the Japanese console and helped was, was very generous in helping Japanese people get their papers to come through and in the Japanese console. I think the story is who knew Aikido and Jujitsu offered to like teach his sons. Yeah. It was Count Maeda, right? Yeah. Who came to, he came to Brazil and taught Carlos and Horian. And, and Hylio, well, mostly Hylio. Who were the fathers of the Holy sixth generation, right? And then Hylio's oldest son, I think, I think Horian was the oldest son and he's the one who created the ultimate fighting championship, but Hixin, the reason why it was so significant that you had him is that was the champion of the family. Like undeniably undisputed, everyone, everyone throughout Jujitsu, this, it's very, very rare that one figure is universally recognized as being the superior product of Jujitsu. And that was Hixin. Yeah. You knew all the way, I, if you followed that stuff at all, you kind of heard that breakdown of it. And I thought, I thought a part of the story, I think Hixin told me when we were in Rio, I think what he said to me was that the reason Gracie Jujitsu became its particular derivation and its particular kind of things that allowed Hois to do so well was because their father was smaller than his brothers. That's Hylio. Right. And they were all bigger and because he was smaller, he adapted the style to work for a smaller person against a bigger person, obviously. And then that kind of reached its pinnacle with Hois winning that tournament. Which this gets down in the weeds for people who aren't into this stuff, but it was, I mean, that was, you talk about these things, the cracking through moment, right? That was a cracking through moment. It was like, wait a minute, a guy his size just literally won an all form, all size tournament? Like how is that possible? You know what I mean? And it was like, it was like jaw hits floor. And to me, what was really interesting was I was really little all the way until literally the end of high school. I was very small. I grew a lot in my, when I was like 17. But I was really interested in Japan and I was interested in martial arts and James Clavell's Shogun. And I would take, I took a karate class and it scared me. If they were bigger and faster, it was just scary. If you were little, it was like, I can't, it doesn't matter if I can do these combos or whatever. In truth, I'm terrified of anybody bigger than me. And I don't feel that this is teaching me anything that I would have the confidence to use to defend myself, right? That's how I felt as a kid. And when I bumped into Aikido, it completely changed my mind. The guy, there was an incredible teacher in New Haven when I was in college and he was small. He was like, you know, maybe smaller than Hoist Gracie or whatever. And the guy was unbelievably potent, like just one of the most potent teachers in anything I ever had. I was riveted by this guy. And it kind of started to make me believe that with grappling and locking, which there's a lot of, there's a lot of jujitsu in Aikido. And I was sort of like, I was fascinated. I started feeling like this makes me feel like I... It's not like kicking someone's ass at all. It's just more like I feel more empowered. I feel able to handle an authentic situation, which is mentally empowering more than like I wanna get into scraps. And it was just kind of amazing. It's like having a secret in a way like, whoa, there's a secret to a much smaller person being able to lever a much bigger person. And then that thing happened with the Gracies and it was sort of like the whole thing cracked open. It was like proof in a way. And if you were interested in that stuff, it was an incredible moment. But because of my interest in that for years, when we went to Rio and I had been working on the script of that movie and stuff, and I was like, I was really interested in this idea that Banner is desperate for control, right? That he desperately, desperately needs to control his heart rate, his breathing, that it's a massive liability in his mind if he can't control his emotions and his adrenaline. And I was like, well, who in the world... And I'd seen the videos of his... I'd never met him or any of them, but I'd seen the videos of him doing the amazing stuff with his stomach. Yeah, the yoga. Yeah, and the breathing. And I just was like, we have to... And everyone was like, who's that? I was like, I was like, Philistines, you're all Philistines. And I was like, find me Hicks and Gracie and ask him if he'll do a scene with me in the movie being the guy who's training Banner to calm himself. And he was there and he did it with us. And I was like... Wow. Yeah, there it is right here. Yeah. Yeah. When I saw this in the movie, I was like, oh, fuck yeah. What a smart move. Yeah. And I was like... I was like, yeah, see, I forgot this. Holy crap. I haven't looked at this in a long time. Look how charismatic he is too. He's amazing. I mean, the guy could have been like Charles Bronson. 100%. Like a movie star. Did you ever see Choke, the documentary? Yeah. One of the greatest documentaries in history. It's like Pumping Hire. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely for martial arts. It details Hickson's journeys to Japan, the fight in Japan Valley Tudo, which was around 94, which is right after his brother had won the Ultimate Fighting Championship. And the story was that if his brother lost, Hickson was going in. Like the idea was, well, bring in Hoist because it's more impressive. He's a smaller man. He's not physically imposing. Whereas Hickson in that video there, he was older. When he was young, he was very fit and he was big into yoga and physical fitness. And he had the strongest body of all the graces. He looked very formidable. Whereas Hoist looked unassuming. And it was more of an advertisement of Jiu-Jitsu of Hoist could beat everybody and Hoist wound up doing. But if at any reason, if they needed to bring in the big gun, it was going to be Hickson. And Hoist always talked about it. Like Hickson could tap him left and right and everybody was like, that doesn't even make sense. Hoist is the Ultimate Fighting Champion. He's the guy. But his brother would just run right through him. He would run right through everybody. They would have a line of black belts and they would all wait for their turn to get tapped and they would roll with Hickson and he would just dismantle everybody. People that thought they understood Jiu-Jitsu. There's so many levels and layers to Jiu-Jitsu that even though it looks like, what is the difference? This guy's doing an armbar. You're doing an armbar. There's specifics in the intricate aspects of the positions that Hickson understood that they just didn't understand. And then on top of that, he had much greater control of his body because of his yoga background. I mean, he became obsessed with yoga. And breathing. Yes, and breathing and something called gymnastic natural, which was like a style of movement that was sort of like vinyasa yoga with all these flowing postures, but also with a bunch of almost animal movements to it too. And it was a very physically demanding thing and he became outstanding at that as well. But people don't, from the outside, when you start talking about things like Jiu-Jitsu and ultimate fighting, you think of it as brutal, violent, but it's an intellectual pursuit and it's a spiritual pursuit because to be the person that can overcome all of the obstacles, you have to have incredible control of your emotions and your thought processes and your understanding of who you are. And that, I think, is one of the things that separated Hickson from everybody. I do too.