Colin O'Brady Sets Record Straight on Inaccurate Nat Geo Article | Joe Rogan

Now this thing that you did when you walked across Antarctica, very impressive, incredible. But I'm sure you've seen the National Geographic article they wrote about you. And they said that there was another man from, was it Norway? That had done it already. Yes. That wasn't the first time someone had gone across Antarctica. He had gone actually a further distance. Yeah. So something I've been talking about super openly, including in my book, which is the NACIO article. It's a little bit unfortunate. I actually just published a 16-page letter asking NACIO to retract the entire article. And the reason it's 16 pages is unfortunately the entire article they wrote is just so riddled with inaccuracies and kind of misrepresentations and omissions that we had to kind of ask them and say, hey, look, you kind of got this wrong. I was never properly interviewed for it. But one of the things, you're talking about this guy, Borga Oslund, this guy. Norwegian guy. Absolute freaking legend. So what this guy did in 1996, so 20-some years before that I attempted my crossing, is he crossed Antarctica from the edge of the coastline, across the ice shelf, all the way across the landmass, across the other ice shelf, roughly 1,800 miles. And what he used to propel himself was he used a kite for a good portion of the time. And it's an absolute extraordinary project. And what's really weird about sort of this National Geographic article, a number of senses, is one of the premises of it was saying, you know, Colin never talked about Borga Oslund. Like he never talked about him in his book. He never mentioned him. He never this. And in my book, which is really bizarre and why we're asking for a retraction because it's just really in effect, was that, you know, here I am on page 49 of my book, literally, it says, the Norwegian adventurer, Borga Oslund, in many ways defined the terrain of astonishing modern Antarctic feats, becoming the first person to cross Antarctica solo when he traveled 1,800 miles in 63 days from 1996, 1997. Not only did he cross the entire landmass of Antarctica, but he also crossed the full Raun and Ross ice shelves from the ocean's edge. Olsund's expedition has deeply inspired me and was unsupported and he hauled all of his food and fuels with no resupplies. So it was weird. It's like the journalist like wrote this article, but didn't read my book. And I had done, I don't know, a lot of, there's a lot of speculation. I had did this big project and the film project around the row was with Discovery. I don't know if Nat Geo is coming at Discovery or whatever, but it's really bizarre. I mean, we could talk about all the different kind of fine points of that. But the big distinction and like I'll say it, I've said it, shout out from the rooftops, but I'll say it here again. Borga Olsund is absolutely incredible. Like I am in awe of the guy, what he did in 96 is phenomenal. That's why I write about it in my book. That's why I've written about it on my social. The day after I finished my crossing, I wrote about it on there as well. And I said, wow, so many people have inspired me. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. The only way I was able to do this. Right. But this says impossible first, right? So he did it first. Right. So the difference is, is there's kind of two really specific distinctions in the world of polar travel. There's unsupported, which means not using, not using, uh, not getting, sorry, not getting resupply with food or fuel. Like I was talking about with the food. And then there's unassisted, which means not using anything to propel you other than your own body. So that's called human powered alone. So what he did is considered assisted, um, in that he used a kite, but he was able to go twice the distance to me, which is amazing. So he crossed. And how often did he use the kite? Because what I'd read that he'd only use the kite and a few instances where the wind was right. So that's another one of the things that the national geographic article, um, unfortunately got wrong. And in my 16 page letter that anyone can read, it's on my website, colinabraded.com slash blog, letter to Nat Geo, or it's linked to my Instagram. Um, it's not like a, he said, he said thing where I'm like, Oh, hey, this got wrong. It's just actually a really kind of documented and source document that has links to everything. Um, and one of the links that shows is actually his entire kind of project afterwards and the aftermath of him talking about it, including talking about, um, with para wing, which was the one of his sponsors, the guys who actually built a manufactured the kite. And they're talking about how he used it for about at least a third of his journey. Six, 600 or so miles. Um, as well as, you know, he was able to use the kite going 125 miles in a single day, um, which is, like I said, it's amazing. It's really incredible what he did in the time that he did it. It's just really kind of an apples and oranges, um, comparison when it comes to polar travel and the distinctions of that, um, so he traveled further, but he used some assistance. Yeah. So there's basically these different distinctions in the world of polar travel. And that's another one of the things, again, um, I'm not sure how they got this wrong. I, uh, in the link on the 16 page thing, I showed the text message when the journalists asked me, well, tell me about these definitions of unsupported and unassisted. Um, and I sent him the link and there's these links. It's, it's kind of published thing on this website called antarctica logistics, um, and expeditions, the main sort of expedition, um, facilitator, the person who like runs logistics down there. It's very clear. Unsupported means no use of resupplies. Unassisted means no use of kites or dogs. And so the thing that I did solo, um, that people, I guess, have gotten somewhat confused about or at first was I was the first person to cross the land mass of antarctica solo unsupported, no resupplies and unassisted no kites. What Borga, Alison did is he was the first person to cross antarctica, not just the land mass, but also the ice shelves. So there's frozen ocean on these ice shelves. Um, so from the coast, cross the ice shelf across the land mass and across the other ice shelf and no one yet, including myself has ever done a solo unsupported unassisted crossing of both the land mass and the ice shelves. I hope someone does it, man. It would be amazing. I had 375 pounds sled and I almost ran out of food at the end crossing the land mass. Um, and, uh, if you'd need maybe a 600 pound sled or something like that, or maybe a more optimized food solution that no one's thought of yet, but, um, hasn't been done yet. How big was ocelan sled? Similar size to me. So he was out there for, um, I think he was out there for 63 days, but roughly I was out there for 54 days. So we were not out there a lot different in duration. Okay. So the sled really did make a big difference that if he's going that much further than you. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, so, so one more time you were out there, how many days? I was up there 54 days and he was out there 63 days. Okay. That's not that different. Right. And so he, like I said, on a customer, the days he talks about it openly that he went, he does it in kilometers, but if you calculate back to miles, like 125 miles in a 15 hour period of time, that's unfathomable. Just walking, pulling a sled. They're just two different things. It's like the difference between sailing across an ocean and rowing a boat across the ocean. Why do you think national geographic got that wrong then? Because the way they wrote it, it was, you know, is they made it look like you're just a fame whore and that, you know, there was a bunch of other explorers and outdoors people that were in support of the fact that Ouslinn was the only one, the first one to do it. They didn't make this distinction and they actually made it seem like as if this, this sled was an ingenious solution. But it seems like that was a planned thing and that was an engineered thing and that it wasn't something that he built up on the fly. This was the method that they used to help him get across the snow. Totally. And like I said, if you look in the pet letter that I wrote, it's got links to the actual, the manufacturer. They kind of talk about it as being this elegant solution is like you put a kite up randomly. You figure it out. Hey, I got an idea. Yeah, but it's like a fully manufactured thing. It's a legit kite. And like I said, this is not me knocking on that. I actually think that project, it's one of the projects that inspired me the most to do what I did. It is amazing. It sounds amazing. Can we see what Ouslinn, is there any photograph of Ouslinn's kite? I want to see what it looks like. Yeah. Whenever someone does something extraordinary, like there's no doubt just what you did. Fifty how many days again? 54 days alone. It's fucking crazy. It's crazy. And for anybody to shit on that is nuts. So you're the first one that's ever done it, just pulling that thing. And you showed us what it was like last time you were here. Totally. And some of the areas where you had to pull it, it seems like an insane physical undertaking. Totally. I mean, so yeah, it was, it definitely tested me to the edges of my potential. There was many times that it felt impossible. I think we talked about it last time, but the second chapter of my book is called frozen tears because on the first hour of trying to pull my sled, 375 pounds fully loaded of food and fuel, I started crying. Like I literally started crying. The tears are freezing in my face. It's all type pathetic feeling. I mean, it was really, really brutal and really challenging. And one of the things for sure in the National Geographic article, they're not, they're not disputing that I did this. It's not like they're saying you didn't walk 932 miles by yourself across Antarctica. They kind of like grudgingly gave you credit for doing something really freaky. Yeah. They also didn't mention the difference between the time it took you to travel that and the time it took Ausland to travel a far greater distance or that he used that kite to go more than a hundred miles in a day. Yeah. Those are pretty big, important things. Totally. And I think that, yeah, hopefully you can pull up a picture of the Ausland cut with the kite. Same thing, Jamie. It's, it's linked in there. Not finding his specific that I'm finding kites there, but not with him. Yeah. If it's out there, Jamie will find it. Yeah, we'll find it in a second. But you know, it's a, like I said, it's unfortunate thing. Um, you know, I wrote this letter, the editor of national geographic actually responded and said they're reviewing it, you know, I think they're going to hopefully do the right thing. The facts are pretty clear on this one. Hopefully we can pressure them, but just explaining it here, here it is. Here's this. Okay. Yeah. That's a big difference. It's a big ass fucking kite. Yeah. I'm sure that has a lot of power behind it too. And I bet that really helped him. Totally. And it looked in ski with those things. Like the fact that he's got skis on and he's getting pulled by that kite. I mean, you're gliding. Yeah. You're not propelling yourself. They're both really cool things. They're just different. Jamie, go back to that. Look, he doesn't have poles in his hands. No, he's just holding onto the kite being pulled along by it. So he's probably strapped to that kite. Yeah. It's like, if you imagine like a kite board, like a kite boarding on the water or something like that. So he's probably strapped at the waist. He's holding onto that kite, but it's pulling him while he's on skis. Yes. Whereas what you did was pull with trekking poles. Yeah. Trekking poles and, you know, cross country skis with skins, but just to give me traction. So I didn't sink too deep in the snow, but I'm just walking basically, just pulling it with my own body fully. He's not doing that. It's a different thing. They're just two different things. I'm sure there was times where you had to walk, right? Yeah. Yeah. He manhauled for parts of it as well, like a significant distance, but a lot of it, when the wind was with him, you know, he put up his kite and pulled along and it's. The fact that he was able to go more than a hundred miles in a day makes me go, wait a minute. What? Yeah. Come on. That's a different thing. Totally different thing. That's a different thing. National Geographic did not recognize that, that that's a different thing that he can go on the snow pulling 300 pounds more than a hundred miles. How many? He went 125 in one time in 15 hours. Fucking ridiculous. Yeah. That's a totally different thing. Completely. Completely. National Geographic. Jesus Christ. Yeah. I mean, they should, they should have been really clear about that because they were trying to make it out like some elegant solution that he occasionally used. Not big deal, but what he really did was amazing. What he did was fucking amazing. There's no doubt about that. What we just saw in that image of him getting pulled by that giant ass fucking kite on skis strapped to this harness with all the weight behind him also being pulled by that giant ass kite. That's a different thing. 124 miles in a day, pulling 300 plus pounds. Get the fuck out of here. It's hard to walk 124 miles in a day. Let alone with nothing on your back. Zach Bitter, who holds the American world record for the fastest 24 hours ever run, ran it full clip at 11 hours. He ran a hundred miles. So 124 miles in 15 minutes while dragging hundreds of pounds or 50 minutes. I say 15 minutes, 15 hours, 124 miles while dragging hundreds of pounds a gear all in 15 hours is insane. That's insane. If Zach Bitter can run a hundred miles in 11 hours and break a world record or an American record, American record. Yeah, that's a crazy record. Yeah, 100 fucking miles in 11 hours is crazy running. And that guy did 124 with hundreds of pounds of gear in a sled in 15 hours. Exactly. That's a different thing. Just two different things, man. Different things. And so world record correction. Zach's world record. Yeah, Zach won the world record. He had the American record first and then he broke the world record in his latest attempt. Zach Bitter's a monster. Yeah. Shout out to Zach. But him being able to do that running is incredible. That guy being able to go further in just four hours longer pulling hundreds of pounds of gear. Come on National Geographic. They're just two different things. That's a different and it's not unimpressive. It's incredibly impressive. That guy has fucking steel resolve to be able to do that and get all the way across the ice shelves and all that shit that he had to do. Absolutely. And I mean, the biggest thing for me is unfortunately that was portrayed in a certain way. I don't know if it wasn't fact checked or what that, but like for me, the whole purpose of any of this, the whole purpose of writing the book and sharing it with the world and being on, you know, talking to people, you know, via your podcast or whatever, like my whole goal is to inspire other people to step outside of their comfort zones, do things in their life, challenge themselves. Like it's this is not about me. It is not not just in the belt. It's got to be a little bit about you. You wrote a book. I like it. I have not. Have you written a book? No, have not. Really? No. That surprises me. I started writing a book at one point in time, but I had, uh, I had a deal with a book publisher and the notes were so brutal. I gave him the money back. Really? Yeah. They were like, they didn't like it. They wanted me to write essentially the way I write stand up. I wanted me to be like set up punchline, set up punchline. I was like, this is not how you write things, guys. Like they wanted it. Different without the intonation of the voice and the. Yeah. They actually wanted to take my stand up. They offered to just take my stand up and transcribe it into a book. And I said, I'd never do that. And they're like, well, George Carlin did it. I go, it's cause he owed the fucking IRS a billion dollars. Come on, man. George. If you asked George, it was a good idea. I bet he would say no. Yeah. No, he needed money. George Carlin was like deep in the hole with the IRS. He did a lot of things I'm sure he didn't want to do. Yeah. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to write a book that way. Well, I'll tell you, I have walked across the landmass of my article by myself. I've wrote a boat. I've done some other crazy shit in my life, but the hardest thing I've ever done is write a book. Really? Yes. No shit. Is that hard? It really was, you know, I'm proud. I'm proud of the outcome. You know, I really poured my heart and soul into it, but it was challenging. I've been journaling since I was a little kid, like since I was 12 years old. So going back through all my journals and thinking about, you know, there's the Antarctica piece of this, but it's a subtitles from fire to ice. So I talk about, you know, being burned in this fire in Thailand, being told I would never walk again normally going through all these pieces of my life. But one of the things that happened when I was in Antarctica, which it was interesting to me, maybe you'll find it interesting is as I was out there by myself in this empty white landscape, 24 hours of daylight, endless white, nothingness, my mind started filling in with all of these memories. So I deleted almost all my music. I'm in silence. I'm a full solitude. Like if I said to you, Hey, Joe, remember the day you graduated from high school and like, someone's going to pop in your mind right now, we're going to keep talking and you're going to move on from that. But when I was walking out there by myself, someone would pop my head like, Hey, Colin, remember that your first swim race when you were a little kid and all of a sudden, like I'd be back there. Like I could like dive in and I could see my mom on the edge of the pool deck. And the, you know, the wind's blowing across my face and I can see the kid next to me and I can taste the chlorine in my mouth. I mean, visceral memories, like a lucid dream were coming back to me throughout for weeks and weeks and weeks at a time. So the book itself, it reads about Antarctica, but it intersperses the way my experience was in Antarctica, which was actually going back in through my life and this kind of tapestry of sort of visceral memories and flashbacks of other expeditions and childhood and the ups and downs in my personal life and kind of all of these things kind of conspiring into one. But it was, it was wild to go deep into the brain like that. Sure. Yeah. We should probably point out we've had a podcast before in this podcast that we did before was right after you got back from this journey in Antarctica. And you described the whole thing in Thailand. You described getting burned and how you never thought you were going to walk again and all that stuff. So we should tell people, so stop, right? Pause, go back to the first one and come back here again. Um, how did it upset you when the National Geographic article came out? Like what did you see? Like, well, they just got it wrong. Let me, let me straighten them out. You know, it's one of those things. Um, I'd be curious to hear your perspective on kind of media and stuff like this. You've been around, you know, doing type of stuff like me more longer than me, but it, you know, it hurt my feelings obviously. And I was kind of just, it was bizarre because it was so factually inaccurate. And National Geographic is a, you know, a magazine or an outlet that I've looked up to throughout my entire life. It's just like a really beautiful, um, you know, platform. And so I was just surprised. I was surprised that I was never asked for a proper long form interview of this. I was surprised that I was never contacted by a proper fact checker. There was just some things that were just like weird and out of place. And you know, I guess it was a freelancer. I don't, again, I don't know the whole story behind it. That's probably what it is. Um, but, uh, if I had to guess, look, there's very little in like praising people. There's a whole lot taking people down. Yeah. If they could find that you did something that you, uh, did something incorrect or you lied about something or exaggerated about something. I mean, they made you out to be a liar. Yeah. I mean, I read it and I was like, wow, like they're, they're saying he's a liar. Yeah. They're saying how much of it is fiction? Yeah. Literally said fiction, but how much of it could be fiction if you fucking really did walk 54 goddamn days across Antarctica. Not only that the kind of weird parts about it is not only that, but I also had a GPS on me the entire time. It was completely transparent. Every 10, 10 minutes, the entire journey were live for to see the New York times covered it. They had my GPS tracker up live. The map of my route is in the first page of my book, let alone online 24 seven. There's been hundreds of articles written about this by outlets who have fact checked and research or whatever. So for Natcheo to make all those claims, it's like saying like Collins somehow tricked every person ever from every news outlet that's covered this and fact checked it and reported on it. And his editors was a book and this jumped hacked his Jeep. I mean, it's like a crazy conspiracy weird, like kind of stance on it because everyone, how do you say his name? Ousland? Ousland, yeah. That Ousland had done it. Everybody knew that Ousland had done it. Maybe they just didn't understand the details of it. So they started complaining. Hey, he didn't do it first. Ousland did it first. And this guy's like, I got a story. So he goes to try to go after you, but then realized it's kind of, he kind of did it first, but the other guy did it. Well, let's just say that the kite was cool. Right. He had a cool kite. But I mean, he did even weirder things like in the first paragraph or second paragraph of the entire article, he takes a quote from page 50 of my book and a quote from page 214 of my book and puts them together as if they're a single statement. And I'm like, they're about two completely different things that I'm talking about. And you're like, dude, that's what people do. They want to sell dirt. You know, or he says, like, Colin made up this thing about no rescue zones. No one's ever written about the fact of in Anarkar. And he talks about me getting picked up in Anarkar. Like I can call an Uber. He literally says in there, uses somebody else's quotes, says, I mean, getting picked up in Anarkar is like calling an Uber, which is by itself just really says that in the article, which is just crazy. That's hilarious. Bitch, try getting an Uber in the woods in Montana. Okay. I'm like, I'm like an Uber and then the craziest thing. And again, that is so crazy. My response to this is just factual. It's not, you know, it's I just try to not be too defensive or anything about it. But it's just well, the good news is this will reach way more people in that article. Yeah. But I would say one last thing about it. The irony of this is if you Google Borg, Auslan in 2018, right after 2019, right after I finished my crossing, he's interviewed about all of this and in a quote, and I linked to this in my, you know, my letter it him saying there are parts of Antarctica, particularly in the largest history zones, which is exactly what I was talking about, where rescue is impossible. Like he, the guy who's against me is also quoted saying the other thing. But then he says it's like the whole thing is just, you know, it's crazy. Man, there's so much money and shitting on someone. That's, that's what it is. I'm sure I'm sure my head guy, well, I'm sure this guy wrote that article is probably a little bit of a hater. Yeah. You know, probably saw you and like the fuck this guy, you know, it's the world we live in. Unfortunately, I try to, you know, keep my head up. Like I said, I wrote this book to inspire other people to step outside their comfort zones to amazing things. I got paid for it as well. Yeah. I got it's also like, is that so wrong? No, you definitely should get paid. You should get paid for the whole thing. But the fact that they're trying to diminish what you did and what you really did do was walk by yourself for 54 days through Antarctica. And then one of the things he was even saying something about it was on a road. Yeah. And I'm like, Hey, bitch, why don't you walk dragon 300 pounds on a road? Like, does that matter? Everything's covered in snow and ice. Like what fucking road is this? Yeah. So there's basically this 300 mile stretch. It's the last third of my part of my journey, which by the way, was on my GPS, which by the way, I talk about in my book, which by the way, I widely acknowledge. And it's called the South Pole Overland Traverse. And so the South Pole station, the US, sorry, the US research station that's at the South Pole is resupplied throughout the summer season from the coast. And they drive this kind of bunch of tractors basically up this area called the Leverett Glacier. And it's not like a paved road. This is them driving over ice and snow and filling in crevasses along the way, etc. And there's some tire tracks and some flagging that are out there. So first of all, I've already traveled almost 600 miles without any of that. And then as I get there and we know this is part of it, and I've talked about widely with all the polar experts, all of the people that make the classifications and unassisted refer specifically to kites and dogs. And they're trying to make this claim that the road somehow, quote unquote, Eric, big air quotes road, basically some rutted up tracks in the snow. You know, I'm I'm not a paved road. No, there's not a paved road out there. And the thing is Antarctica is so brutal. We showed some clips last time he's setting up my 10 50 60 mile per hour winds that it was like. Yeah. When that blows over, imagine driving a tractor over snow and then 50 60 mile winds come in. What do you think happens? It's blown over immediately. So I never saw these tractors, never saw these vehicles. I never saw. I saw some flags, of course. I saw some rutted tracks, but I linked to it on my letter. So it's really not much difference in walking on flat ground. No, not at all. And still, there's still this is true either. So there's still huge bumps of snow. And all the time it was white. I was completely white out. I couldn't see five or 10 feet in front of me. So it's not like I could a lot of times these flags are every hundred four hundred meters. Like I'd even see those. So it's just a shame. And I've been very transparent about the fact that I use that route. It was the safest route. It was the only route the logistic company wanted to support. And it fells completely in the distinctions of what is known as unassisted. And he kind of makes this claim about that's not true where people are rethinking that. And one of the weird things is rethinking it. Right. So they're now, because of some of this, the polar community have gotten together after my project. So my project squarely falls in the definitions as they were, followed all of the rules and all of this. Now, now they're sitting together and they're saying, you know, maybe we should rewrite some of these rules or make certain definitions different. Which, by the way, if they want to change rules, that's totally fine. The problem is it would be like this. This is what them calling me sort of like a liar or something would be equivalent of this. With Major League Baseball got together and said, you know what? All games in baseball are going to be 10 innings now instead of nine innings. And all of those guys over the last hundred years that played 200 in the thousand games or whatever who played nine innings, they cheated. They lied. They didn't play the full game. Like, you know, they just like, you know, they're there if they want to change whatever distinctions or classifications or stuff. Forward looking. Great. And what would the distinctions be that they would change this? You can't do it on a road. So I think they're trying to make it finer grained, which is like there would be like a kite distinction. There would be a no supported distinction. There would be a distinction for using, you know, partial of if there was a flagging or this like, you know, road, which by the way, is not a road to be clear. It's snow and I should like the rest of it. I don't I don't. There's a there might be if you know, at no point in time, was it like flat ground? Ice and snow were a tractor. We might see like some wheels. And in fact, Lou Rudd, who was the other guy who I was racing out there in Antarctica, he wrote a whole blog post about that's linked to in my letter. And, you know, of course, he did the exact same thing as me, by the way, the exact same thing, same distinction. And, you know, I finished a couple of days ahead of him, but he did. It was absolutely incredible. Is this is this race and we talk a lot about it in the book and ton of respect for that guy as well. It's a friend of mine. And, you know, he writes about this, you know, quote unquote road or the South Pole over the introverses. It's actually known. And he's like, it's rutted up tracks like you couldn't even in the parts where I saw tired tracks. It's like actually worse than because you don't slide across it. The snow is all rutted up. It's chunked up. It's actually like tripping you. It's like even worse and he being on broken ice versus powder. Yeah. So this journalist and there's other people who are saying this. This is not like they've like been out there before. It's like it's a it's an attractive thing to say. Part of his journey was actually on a road like, oh, fuck that road in Antarctica. But that's how it sounds. When you say part of it was on a road, it sounds like like this, the road. Oh, Christ. That's it. That's the road. That ain't not really a fucking road, man. That's just flat snow. Exactly. And that would be like the best case. Most of the time it's wind blowing across it. Like that's on the perfect conditions. Perfect sunny day. I looked to the left and looked to the right. Like it doesn't make a difference. It's the same. It's the same. Yeah. That's really deceptive that they wrote that. Yeah, that's really deceptive because they made it seem like, oh, and then he gets to the highway and he's just walking. It's like hitchhiking. Put my thumb out like pick up a bus and he still went 54 fucking days across Antarctica. And I know they acknowledge that in a small way in the article, but they really like just that, just the description, calling that a road like that. It's sort of technically a road. There's no fucking ground, man. It's just all ice and snow. You don't see the ground. Exactly. And like I said, I was transparent about that was my route. I asked all the people, they're like, yep, you're within the rules. You're doing the right thing. No one's ever done this before. And then, you know, damn, everybody's a fucking hater. Yeah, that's the world we live in. Unfortunately, you know, the expert. No, tell me that throw crabs in a bucket. None of them ever get out because when they try to get out, the other ones grab them and drag them. Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly. They're pile on top of each other. The other crabs get out in here with me. Fuck, I can't walk 54 days. You can't eat a bitch. Drag you onward, onward, onward. Onward is nice, but man, it's really disturbing.